re: NFL Draft - BPA Argument

[jimmyz]

jimmyz - Weatherspoon is a solid 1st Round pick but at 15, that may be a little high.  Because some scouts are concerned about what many have termed "stiffness" in his play - the Combine will go a long way in dispelling or confirming that report.

I wonder how much of that stiffness comes from his senior playing weight of 250+.  His natural weight is around 240.  As a sophomore, he was inserted into the starting lineup and instantly became a leader of their defense.  I wouldnt put too much credence into the stiffness thing.  They'll find every imperfection about a player they can but overall i think he'll make a fine pro LB.  He may not be the greatest coverLB but he's not bad and he's smart and blitzes and plays the run. If by draft day he projects to the 20th spot of the first round, I dont have a problem drafting him at 15.   

[worf49]

Todge  I really do not think Alford is someone to count either because he had a serious knee injury and was not dominant before the injury.  Canty appears. from his limited time at DT, he may be better suited for DE.  Certainly, Canty even when he was supposedly healthy for a game or 2 did nothing to lead one to suspect he would be dominant at DT.

Coefield does a good job stooping the run, he does not do much breaking down the pocket or rushing the passer or making tackles behind the LOS.

Also, as far as Sintim is concerned if you read Painter's comments I think we need to give the kid a chance this season and see what he brings to the table.

Sintim is a physically talented player and hopefully, with good coaching and hard work, he will be an outstanding SLB.

[todge]

Just remember this jimmyz ...

Many scouts included Pro Football Weekly's Nolan Nawrocki tabbed last year's 4th overall pick Aaron Curry as the "best linebacking prospect in the last ten years".  He struggled the entire year at Seattle and was a non-factor.

You just never know what you have in a player until they put the pads on in an NFL training camp.  That is why so many top Draft choices never make it and so many undrafted players become stars.  

[andrew_nyg]

Great contributions!

Here's my view:

I respected EA's assertion that "you can never have too many pass rushers" because, in his mind, everything begins and ends with the Quarterback....IE: his declaration that "Offense wins Championships"

Where I differ is, first and foremost "Defense wins Championships" and to have an effective defense, you have to be in the business of making your opponents offense one dimensional.

My issues with the recent Giants defense' are that (even when they had a pass rush), they consistently had problems in coverage against better than average pass catching tight ends, and have been VERY inconsistent in stopping the run.

Those are two areas where over the years, the Giants have traditionally been STOUT. Mainly because to do this, it begins and ends with EXCELLENT LINEBACKING! Something the Giants have been lacking for better than 15 years. (I can't even believe that I actually typed that the Giants have been weak at LB for 15 years).

Perhaps I'm being unfair, because my benchmark is guys like Brian Kelly, Brad Van Pelt, Harry Carson, Andy Headen, Byron Hunt, Gary Reasons, Pepper Johnson, Carl Banks, oh, and some guy named Taylor.

I know that we've had guys like Armstead, and Pierce within the past 15 years...but they alone couldn't do it all, and let's face it, they've been surrounded by pedestrian players for most of their respected tenures. Pierce is pretty much done, now. So, IMO...the Giants have NO linebackers worthy of building a corps around. Boley is good, not great.

This defense (if it wants to be championship caliber) needs to be able to STOP THE RUN FIRST. Take away the outlet pass, TE/RB...and then they can pin their ears back.

No matter how you slice it, in order to do that consistently, you need an excellent Linebacking corps. Until the Giants address this area with REAL players, IMO, they will never be more than a middle of the road defense, depending upon it's offense to win.

[jerseyguy]

Todge  I really do not think Alford is someone to count either because he had a serious knee injury and was not dominant before the injury.  Canty appears. from his limited time at DT, he may be better suited for DE.  Certainly, Canty even when he was supposedly healthy for a game or 2 did nothing to lead one to suspect he would be dominant at DT.

Coefield does a good job stooping the run, he does not do much breaking down the pocket or rushing the passer or making tackles behind the LOS.

Also, as far as Sintim is concerned if you read Painter's comments I think we need to give the kid a chance this season and see what he brings to the table.

Sintim is a physically talented player and hopefully, with good coaching and hard work, he will be an outstanding SLB.

agreed. we need  Sintim to be what we drafted him to be, our strong side Lber, I for one am getting tired of drafting a player and then converting him to something else .

[todge]

Also, as far as Sintim is concerned if you read Painter's comments I think we need to give the kid a chance this season and see what he brings to the table. Sintim is a physically talented player and hopefully, with good coaching and hard work, he will be an outstanding SLB.

I never stated worf that Sintim wouldn't make it.  What I did say is that he didn't show a lot this year to instill a lot of confidence that he will be a good Sam.  He MAY work out ... but then again, he may never be able to be a good coverage LB.  Bottom line is that we don't know.  Regardless, there is no depth behind him - so another Sam is a no-brainer as far as I am concerned.

I also support enhancing the Defensive Line.  However given the choice of a MLB or a DL, I just can't see the Giants passing on someone like McClain and taking someone like Price.  The defensive line needs enhancing but the linebacker position needs a transplant.

[worf49]

Todge  A lot can happen between now and the draft so I guess we just wait and see.

Whomever we draft on D they need to make an immediate impact.

[jimmyz]

Just remember this jimmyz ...

Many scouts included Pro Football Weekly's Nolan Nawrocki tabbed last year's 4th overall pick Aaron Curry as the "best linebacking prospect in the last ten years".  He struggled the entire year at Seattle and was a non-factor.

You just never know what you have in a player until they put the pads on in an NFL training camp.  That is why so many top Draft choices never make it and so many undrafted players become stars.  

Naturally, but the same could be said of any player in this draft including McClain. 

[Philosophers]

The reality is that we need defensive players making plays.  It doesn' t matter where they are.  If we have strength at safety, we will build around it.  If we have strength around DL, we will build around it. While I want to see all positions at strength, the reality is that will not happen.  So, rather than pass on a stud who becomes an All Pro DE just to get another average MLB is not something I'm in favor of.  All things equal, I want the stud to be a position of need on defense but if not, let's get the horses.

[files58]

Great contributions!

Here's my view:

I respected EA's assertion that "you can never have too many pass rushers" because, in his mind, everything begins and ends with the Quarterback....IE: his declaration that "Offense wins Championships"
Where I differ is, first and foremost "Defense wins Championships" and to have an effective defense, you have to be in the business of making your opponents offense one dimensional.
My issues with the recent Giants defense' are that (even when they had a pass rush), they consistently had problems in coverage against better than average pass catching tight ends, and have been VERY inconsistent in stopping the run.
Those are two areas where over the years, the Giants have traditionally been STOUT. Mainly because to do this, it begins and ends with EXCELLENT LINEBACKING! Something the Giants have been lacking for better than 15 years. (I can't even believe that I actually typed that the Giants have been weak at LB for 15 years).
Perhaps I'm being unfair, because my benchmark is guys like Brian Kelly, Brad Van Pelt, Harry Carson, Andy Headen, Byron Hunt, Gary Reasons, Pepper Johnson, Carl Banks, oh, and some guy named Taylor.
I know that we've had guys like Armstead, and Pierce within the past 15 years...but they alone couldn't do it all, and let's face it, they've been surrounded by pedestrian players for most of their respected tenures. Pierce is pretty much done, now. So, IMO...the Giants have NO linebackers worthy of building a corps around. Boley is good, not great.
This defense (if it wants to be championship caliber) needs to be able to STOP THE RUN FIRST. Take away the outlet pass, TE/RB...and then they can pin their ears back.
No matter how you slice it, in order to do that consistently, you need an excellent Linebacking corps. Until the Giants address this area with REAL players, IMO, they will never be more than a middle of the road defense, depending upon it's offense to win.

Agree 100%. We need players that can penetrate and blow up the LOS.

[GiantFD]

The BPA argument will probably come down us having to choose between Thomas, Mays, Spikes and Williams, if we are going defense.
It may also come down to what position will offer the best second round talent.

For instance, If you prefer Thomas or Mays over Spikes it may come down to taking Spikes due to the lack of second round ILB talent. There looks to be better second round value at the safety position,  with Chad Jones and Nate Allen.

The Giants have a habit of saying the player they took in the first had the highest grade and the second round pick had a first round grade and was considered there.

Bottom line is we'll never really know anyway.

[todge]

On the money with the Safety talent being  Round 2 giantfd.  Either Nate Allen or Chad Jones would be excellent selections there.  I would be shocked if the Giants took Taylor Mays - they need defenders that can cover receivers and that is not Mays' strong point.  I wonder how the Giants have Spikes rated.  Because there are questions surrounding his speed, the Combine will go a long way in determining his Draft spot.  There are also character questions surrounding him and he may not even be on the Giants' Board.

We shouldn't be shocked though if McClain falls to #15.  Only Miami, Jacksonville and perhaps Cleveland have LB as a high position of need.  Miami may prefer a rushbacker in the Kindle mold; Jacksonville and Cleveland may be leaning more to offense.  It will be interesting.

[GiantFD]

Todge,

I hope you're right about Mclain. A Mclain, Chad Jones 1-2 would have me open a bottle of Moet and do some serious celebrating.

[billy bob]

     The G-men need an impact player on Defense, so if they have to I say trade up and get him. The Jets
  traded up to get Revis. I would trade up if I'm Jerry.  Stud linebacker please!

[BigBlueFanInFla]

McClain will NEVER get past Parcells at 12. His backers are probably worse than ours, if not they are a close second. The Big Tuna is salivating over this kid..he is exactly what Parcells has been waiting for and his play in the National Championship game didnt hurt his chances either.

 Unfortunatey for us, The Fins are looking for the exact same thing that we are, Since their safetties are pretty good and MUCH better than ours, Tuna will go MLB and it WILL be McClain....leaving us with the big decision, Spikes....OR........our second rated DT........... or our top rated safety.

hmmmmmmmm........