Tuck, and the defense....and Reese

[todge]

Reese has done NOTHING to bring in that ASSASSIN that this defense needs...MORE building a defense predicated on a dominant defensive line and little else is akin to a baseball team being built with a clean-up hitter surrounded by 8 .200 hitters. What happens when the clean-up guy isn't MASHING?! The team CAN'T WIN!

Who did you want to bring in?

It's not "Who" it's "What"

What I want from the next GM, is for he to value Linebackers as much as he does DLinemen...and to understand that one's effectiveness is severely limited without the other. You can't just keep piling up DL's and neglecting LB's and not expect that unless the DL completely DOMINATE every game, that TE's slot WR's, and RB's are going FEAST on you every other week.

Well, that's that where you're wrong.  You want the 'what" yet can't name the "who".  There are very few LB's in the 4-3 which are dominant and even fewer that are available to draft.  Until you can name names, it's a pipe dream and none of these GM's with a 4-3 defense can pull linebackers out of a hat.  Heck, 2/3 of the league is pulling one linebacker off the field now.  A hybrid or larger safety in the box might just be as important.  Hoping Chad Jones can fill that role or Williams becomes that player.

I agree with NY Sports here.  Linebackers don't grow on trees and you can't just go to the grocery store and buy one.  With the emphasis on short quick passes, teams are pulling linebackers off the field and moving safeties into the hybrid role.  To tell you the truth - I think the real issue on this team is a lack of good safeties, not linebackers.  When Deon Grant (who probably couldn't play for another team in the league), is your third safety, you are in trouble.  If you guys recall, the team was planning on moving TT to the hybrid safety role.  His injury left us with Grant who is so woefully slow it's almost comical watching him in coverage.  Anyway - back to the linebackers.  There are a ton of teams who are struggling to find good linebackers.  The Eagles and Patriots are just a few that come to mind.  But the dearth of that position is epidemic leaguewide.

Let's take a look at the linebacker class of 2011. 

Here were the top OLBs:

Brooks Reed
Akeem Ayers
Dontay Moch
Mason Foster
Lawrence Wilson
Chris Carter

Here were the top ILBs:

Martez Wilson
Kelvin Sheppard
Colin McCarthy
Quan Sturdivant
Nate Irving
Chris White

Now correct me if am wrong, but I really don't see a lot of these players taking the league by storm this year.  Even if the Giants had one on their radar, there is no guarantee that the player they like in any particular Round will be there when it comes time to make the selection. As to the Free Agents - I don't recall any "stud LBs" being available.  Even if one was, the Giants aren't the only team coveting their services. Just because the Giants want someone, doesn't mean they want to come to the Giants.

IMO, the LB situation on this team is not that bad.  Boley had been having a great year. Williams, whose skillset is best suited for the Will, has been a real find and can become an impact LB once he adds bulk and gains experience.  Goff was a dominant run stopper last year.  He struggled in space - but really showed a lot of improvement in that area in the pre-season.  Granted, there are issues at the Sam.  Sintim's failure has really hurt this team and there really weren't any Free Agent options either.

I know that Fewell has hardly distinguished himself this year.  But I will continue to believe that injuries have led to the demise of this defense.  The personnel that was in place would have easily placed the Giants into one of the NFLs top five teams.

[andrew_nyg]

Reese has done NOTHING to bring in that ASSASSIN that this defense needs...MORE building a defense predicated on a dominant defensive line and little else is akin to a baseball team being built with a clean-up hitter surrounded by 8 .200 hitters. What happens when the clean-up guy isn't MASHING?! The team CAN'T WIN!

Who did you want to bring in?

It's not "Who" it's "What"

What I want from the next GM, is for he to value Linebackers as much as he does DLinemen...and to understand that one's effectiveness is severely limited without the other. You can't just keep piling up DL's and neglecting LB's and not expect that unless the DL completely DOMINATE every game, that TE's slot WR's, and RB's are going FEAST on you every other week.

Well, that's that where you're wrong.  You want the 'what" yet can't name the "who".  There are very few LB's in the 4-3 which are dominant and even fewer that are available to draft.  Until you can name names, it's a pipe dream and none of these GM's with a 4-3 defense can pull linebackers out of a hat.  Heck, 2/3 of the league is pulling one linebacker off the field now.  A hybrid or larger safety in the box might just be as important.  Hoping Chad Jones can fill that role or Williams becomes that player.

I agree with NY Sports here.  Linebackers don't grow on trees and you can't just go to the grocery store and buy one.  With the emphasis on short quick passes, teams are pulling linebackers off the field and moving safeties into the hybrid role.  To tell you the truth - I think the real issue on this team is a lack of good safeties, not linebackers.  When Deon Grant (who probably couldn't play for another team in the league), is your third safety, you are in trouble.  If you guys recall, the team was planning on moving TT to the hybrid safety role.  His injury left us with Grant who is so woefully slow it's almost comical watching him in coverage.  Anyway - back to the linebackers.  There are a ton of teams who are struggling to find good linebackers.  The Eagles and Patriots are just a few that come to mind.  But the dearth of that position is epidemic leaguewide.

Let's take a look at the linebacker class of 2011. 

Here were the top OLBs:

Brooks Reed
Akeem Ayers
Dontay Moch
Mason Foster
Lawrence Wilson
Chris Carter

Here were the top ILBs:

Martez Wilson
Kelvin Sheppard
Colin McCarthy
Quan Sturdivant
Nate Irving
Chris White

Now correct me if am wrong, but I really don't see a lot of these players taking the league by storm this year.  Even if the Giants had one on their radar, there is no guarantee that the player they like in any particular Round will be there when it comes time to make the selection. As to the Free Agents - I don't recall any "stud LBs" being available.  Even if one was, the Giants aren't the only team coveting their services. Just because the Giants want someone, doesn't mean they want to come to the Giants.

IMO, the LB situation on this team is not that bad.  Boley had been having a great year. Williams, whose skillset is best suited for the Will, has been a real find and can become an impact LB once he adds bulk and gains experience.  Goff was a dominant run stopper last year.  He struggled in space - but really showed a lot of improvement in that area in the pre-season.  Granted, there are issues at the Sam.  Sintim's failure has really hurt this team and there really weren't any Free Agent options either.

I know that Fewell has hardly distinguished himself this year.  But I will continue to believe that injuries have led to the demise of this defense.  The personnel that was in place would have easily placed the Giants into one of the NFLs top five teams.

todge-

you bring a good argument to the table here...as it relates to this past draft. But Reese has been the GM since before the 2006 combine.

Sports you can tell me I'm wrong till your BLUE but that doesn't make you right. Using the argument that I need to name names?  This isn't an investigation, it's a discussion...not taking the bait.

There have been enough quality LB's since Reese took over (not to mention dating back to his mentor (EA) before him) that this team could have had a strong MLB and either a SAM or WIL. I'm not saying the entire unit need be dominant, but I do believe that at minimum, a dominant MLB is in order...and to todge's point, having a Safety who can handle passing downs has been a missing ingredient.

I repeat, a STRONG DL ALONE DOES NOT A DOMINANT DEFENSE MAKE! THEY NEED HELP!

BTW, I'm not a huge Fewell fan, but it doesn't excuse Reese.

[todge]

Andrew:

You claim to want Reese to draft a stud LB.  What opportunities has Reese missed on to draft that type?  Case in point - there are a ton of teams that would love a Franchise QB.  But "wanting" one and being able to draft one are two entirely different scenarios. Just because you want to fill a particular position with an All-Pro doesn't mean that it should be something to do that is very simple.  Stating that he should just draft one isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

Like Bill Parcells once said, when queried on why Miami couldn't get a stud QB.  He stated - "it's not like you can call 1-800-Quarterback and order one".

Reese and company aren't stupid people.  They know damn well they need a Sam right now.  But reaching in the Draft and throwing money at average players just to fill a position is not the answer.

[andrew_nyg]

Andrew:

You claim to want Reese to draft a stud LB.  What opportunities has Reese missed on to draft that type?  Case in point - there are a ton of teams that would love a Franchise QB.  But "wanting" one and being able to draft one are two entirely different scenarios. Just because you want to fill a particular position with an All-Pro doesn't mean that it should be something to do that is very simple.  Stating that he should just draft one isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

Like Bill Parcells once said, when queried on why Miami couldn't get a stud QB.  He stated - "it's not like you can call 1-800-Quarterback and order one".

Reese and company aren't stupid people.  They know damn well they need a Sam right now.  But reaching in the Draft and throwing money at average players just to fill a position is not the answer.

WOW todge    ...I don't THINK it was your intention...but this post is dripping with condescension.

I'll try to address whatever "argument" is in here:

1st, I NEVER said ALL-PRO...yes I said STUD...meaning STRONG STARTER who can support the DL, and actually be an asset (as opposed to a liability) to the defense.

2nd comparing the availability of a LB to that of a franchise QB is a HUGE REACH in making your point. There is literally NO parallell world here.

He's had 5 seasons to score a STUD(see my description above) Middle Linebacker...when in each of those 5 years anyone who watched this defense recognized it as a need....it's still not done.

To conclude that I would advocate reaching for or overpaying average players is an insult

[PSUBeirut]

The heart of our Giants defense left when our THIRTY YEAR LONG streak of having a Hall-of-Famer on the defensive side of the ball ended when Strahan retired.  From Carson to LT to Strahan, the line of incredible, badass defensive leadership finally came to a close- and so did what we've known as "Giants defense".

Simply put, I think we were spoiled.  We had incredibly vocal, powerful leaders- guys that not only talked the talk but had Hall-of-Fame talent and work ethic to back it up.  They led not only with their mouths but their plays on the field. 

It really is incredible that we had a HOF player on defense for over thirty years in a row. And now that it's over, we're just another run-of-the-mill (or worse) defense.  We're not used to that.

[PSUBeirut]

Hey todge here's three names for ya- Paul Posluzny, Sean Lee and Navarro Bowman.  3 guys the Giants should have drafted and didn't.

[Rambo89]

WOW todge    ...I don't THINK it was your intention...but this post is dripping with condescension.

I'll try to address whatever "argument" is in here:

1st, I NEVER said ALL-PRO...yes I said STUD...meaning STRONG STARTER who can support the DL, and actually be an asset (as opposed to a liability) to the defense.

2nd comparing the availability of a LB to that of a franchise QB is a HUGE REACH in making your point. There is literally NO parallell world here.

He's had 5 seasons to score a STUD(see my description above) Middle Linebacker...when in each of those 5 years anyone who watched this defense recognized it as a need....it's still not done.

To conclude that I would advocate reaching for or overpaying average players is an insult

Andrew you have to understand that there is so much blind love for Jerry Reese that it's impossible to have a good debate about discussing the flaws with the approach to how this team is built. 

[NYSPORTS]

First of all, this thread isn't an "argument", it's a discussion and at the most a debate. 

If fans aren't pleased with the play at linebacker, that's an understandable position.  If the only solution however includes zero names, well, that's not a solution at all.  If fans believe a foundation of no names justifies your position to dump on Reese, you're sorely mistaken. 

Todge took the time put together the available names yet it appears those names are disregarded for a player which doesn't exist. 

The debate is between two parties, one in which is listing the available names which aren't much of a solution and another party which has no names as part of their solution.  Tough to ridicule Reese when you can't names as opposed to generalities.    

[Woody]

What I'm about to say hurts, because he has been one of my FAVORITE Giants.

I'm not sure what is up with Justin Tuck:
- Is he having a crisis of confidence?
- Is he frusterated because he's never 100%?
- Does he not believe in Fewell & the schemes?
- Does he not believe in his teammates?
- Or is it all of the above?

Whether it's any or all of the above, based on what he's been saying, it's GARBAGE LEADERSHIP...and he should be stripped of his Captainship, and perhaps even be shutdown for the balance of the season. His performance combined with his mouth has inspired NO ONE...in fact it's clear that he just doesn't BELIEVE...and the effect is he is hurting the coaching staff and the team.

One of the many reasons that I loved Harry Carson is reflected in his disgust for the Giants defense' performance over the past several weeks. HE was in JT's position...and HE DID IT RIGHT. His attitude was, (hurt or not) I AM SHUTTING THESE MOTHERF%^&KERS DOWN...AND YOU CAN JOIN ME OR GET IN LINE TO GET YOUR AZZ KICKED AFTER THE GAME!

NO ONE on this team offers that persona and NO COACH ON THE PLANET can create such a person...he either has it, or he don't.

This defense has NO HEART, it has NO sense of urgency, and too often have rolled their helmets out onto the field and said "I'm Osi Umenyiora...I'm Aaron Ross, I'm Antrelle Rolle, I'm FILL IN THE FREAKIN BLANK...so that is all that needs to be"

Reese has done NOTHING to bring in that ASSASSIN that this defense needs...MORE building a defense predicated on a dominant defensive line and little else is akin to a baseball team being built with a clean-up hitter surrounded by 8 .200 hitters. What happens when the clean-up guy isn't MASHING?! The team CAN'T WIN!

This organization needs a GIGANTIC paradigm shift...and it begins with the front office and defensive philosophy.

In short: WHERE THE HELL IS GIANTS FOOTBALL?!

Mr. Mara...please bring in the guy who can find it.

Well Said !!! And I agree with it's time to get some attitude on Sundays in that new Met life stadium !!!!! Tuck is not a leader , he is even playing second fidle in the Subway ads !

[todge]

WOW todge    ...I don't THINK it was your intention...but this post is dripping with condescension.

I'll try to address whatever "argument" is in here:

1st, I NEVER said ALL-PRO...yes I said STUD...meaning STRONG STARTER who can support the DL, and actually be an asset (as opposed to a liability) to the defense.

2nd comparing the availability of a LB to that of a franchise QB is a HUGE REACH in making your point. There is literally NO parallell world here.

He's had 5 seasons to score a STUD(see my description above) Middle Linebacker...when in each of those 5 years anyone who watched this defense recognized it as a need....it's still not done.

To conclude that I would advocate reaching for or overpaying average players is an insult

Andrew you have to understand that there is so much blind love for Jerry Reese that it's impossible to have a good debate about discussing the flaws with the approach to how this team is built.

Rambo my friend - I am not a Jerry Reese lover. I  happen to think that he knows just a little bit more about football and how to put together a team than you do.  That is unless you are a former GM who was elevated to that position once and is now retired. 

[todge]

Hey todge here's three names for ya- Paul Posluzny, Sean Lee and Navarro Bowman.  3 guys the Giants should have drafted and didn't.

Sean Lee was generally regarded as a 3/4 inside guy only.  We don't know if the Giants approached Pos during Free Agency and was possibly rebuffed.  Bowman is strictly a Will - the Giants already had one in Boley.

Got to admire your Penn State loyalty PSUBeirut!  Tough times for you guys now huh?

[PSUBeirut]

Hey todge here's three names for ya- Paul Posluzny, Sean Lee and Navarro Bowman.  3 guys the Giants should have drafted and didn't.

Sean Lee was generally regarded as a 3/4 inside guy only.  We don't know if the Giants approached Pos during Free Agency and was possibly rebuffed.  Bowman is strictly a Will - the Giants already had one in Boley.

Got to admire your Penn State loyalty PSUBeirut!  Tough times for you guys now huh?

Got to admire your willingness to reject reality to retrofit faulty reasoning!  Yeah you're right- the Giants couldn't possibly have used any of those LB's.

And you might want to call the 49er coaches and let them know to move Bowman to Will....(after you convince them to switch to a 4-3 I guess).

[babywhales]

First of all, this thread isn't an "argument", it's a discussion and at the most a debate. 

If fans aren't pleased with the play at linebacker, that's an understandable position.  If the only solution however includes zero names, well, that's not a solution at all.  If fans believe a foundation of no names justifies your position to dump on Reese, you're sorely mistaken. 

Todge took the time put together the available names yet it appears those names are disregarded for a player which doesn't exist. 

The debate is between two parties, one in which is listing the available names which aren't much of a solution and another party which has no names as part of their solution.  Tough to ridicule Reese when you can't names as opposed to generalities.   

Names have been given by multiple people here, by draft year and I believe by free agency year.   In fact I think when the names were provided upon request, the response was to accuse people of nitpicking over every draft pick. 
 

[NYSPORTS]

Hey todge here's three names for ya- Paul Posluzny, Sean Lee and Navarro Bowman.  3 guys the Giants should have drafted and didn't.

Sean Lee was generally regarded as a 3/4 inside guy only.  We don't know if the Giants approached Pos during Free Agency and was possibly rebuffed.  Bowman is strictly a Will - the Giants already had one in Boley.

Got to admire your Penn State loyalty PSUBeirut!  Tough times for you guys now huh?

Got to admire your willingness to reject reality to retrofit faulty reasoning!  Yeah you're right- the Giants couldn't possibly have used any of those LB's.

And you might want to call the 49er coaches and let them know to move Bowman to Will....(after you convince them to switch to a 4-3 I guess).

Appears Williams rookie campaign is blowing away Sean Lee.  Do any of the rookie linebackers get a chance at a sophmore season or are we going to compare vets to rookies now?

 Going back a few short years, only one for the rookie LB's, during their college years, who was the most sought after when the names Lee, Poz, Jones and Herzlich were mentioned?     

[PSUBeirut]

Just to have a little fun with you before bed I decided to do a little research. 

I looked up the current top tacklers in the NFL here (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2011&seasonType=REG). 

I decided to look at the top 40, simply because #40 is where the very first New York Giant appears on the list (a FS, Rolle- our first LB would be Kiwanuka, at #57...).

I looked for LB's in the top 40 tacklers in the NFL who had also been drafted in the past 5 years, in the top three rounds, AFTER the Giants first pick in each respective drafts.  Here's what I came up with (#'s in front of player are their position in the top 40):

1.  Pat Angerer - 112 tackles - Drafted 63rd overall in 2010 draft
4.  Navorro Bowman - 103 tackles - Drafted 91st in 2010 draft
5.  D'Quell Jackson - 100 tackles - Drafted 34th overall in 2006 draft
5.  Curtis Lofton - 100 tackles - Drafted 37th overall in 2008 draft
7.  James Anderson - 97 tackles - Drafted 88th overall in 2006 draft
12.  James Laurinitis - 90 tackles - Drafted 35th overall in 2009 draft
13. Sean Witherspoon - 89 tackles - Drafted 19th overall in 2010 draft
16. Paul Posluszny - 84 tackles - Drafted 34th overall in 2007 draft
18. Deandre Levy - 81 tackles - Drafted 76th overall in 2009 draft
32.  Sean Lee - 71 tackles - Drafted 55th overall in 2010 draft
35.  Donald Butler - 70 tackles - Drafted 79th overall in 2010 draft
40.  Phillip Wheeler - 68 tackles - Drafted 93rd overall in 2008 draft

So there you go.  And you know what's weird about looking at tackle stats?  They're completely dominated by linebackers.  Amazing, isn't it?  Almost makes one think the position is important.

And those names don't even include the top-40 LB's taken in rounds 4+ or undrafted. (Kavell Connor, Jamar Cheney, Desmond Bishop, Wesley Woodyard, David Hawthorne).  Nor does it include the guys the Giants had no shot at drafting in the 1st round (Chad Greenway, Patrick Willis, Brian Cushing). It sure seems like there are a quite a few LB's out there in the past 5 years that are making a whole lot more contribution than any LB's our Giants have had flailing around over the same time span.

And to be clear todge- you appear to be right:  Good linebackers don't "grow on trees".  Apparently, they grow in the first three rounds of the NFL draft.