Tuck, and the defense....and Reese

[NYSPORTS]

First of all, this thread isn't an "argument", it's a discussion and at the most a debate. 

If fans aren't pleased with the play at linebacker, that's an understandable position.  If the only solution however includes zero names, well, that's not a solution at all.  If fans believe a foundation of no names justifies your position to dump on Reese, you're sorely mistaken. 

Todge took the time put together the available names yet it appears those names are disregarded for a player which doesn't exist. 

The debate is between two parties, one in which is listing the available names which aren't much of a solution and another party which has no names as part of their solution.  Tough to ridicule Reese when you can't names as opposed to generalities.   

Names have been given by multiple people here, by draft year and I believe by free agency year.   In fact I think when the names were provided upon request, the response was to accuse people of nitpicking over every draft pick.

Guess the GM's across the NFL are nitpicking too b/c the linebackers are dropping in every draft.  Any names for us this year?  Perhaps not yourself, but I'm betting quite a few didn't even know who Herzlich was until after he going through chemo.

[NYSPORTS]

1.  Pat Angerer - 112 tackles - Drafted 63rd overall in 2010 draft
4.  Navorro Bowman - 103 tackles - Drafted 91st in 2010 draft
5.  D'Quell Jackson - 100 tackles - Drafted 34th overall in 2006 draft
5.  Curtis Lofton - 100 tackles - Drafted 37th overall in 2008 draft
7.  James Anderson - 97 tackles - Drafted 88th overall in 2006 draft
12.  James Laurinitis - 90 tackles - Drafted 35th overall in 2009 draft
13. Sean Witherspoon - 89 tackles - Drafted 19th overall in 2010 draft
16. Paul Posluszny - 84 tackles - Drafted 34th overall in 2007 draft
18. Deandre Levy - 81 tackles - Drafted 76th overall in 2009 draft
32.  Sean Lee - 71 tackles - Drafted 55th overall in 2010 draft
35.  Donald Butler - 70 tackles - Drafted 79th overall in 2010 draft
40.  Phillip Wheeler - 68 tackles - Drafted 93rd overall in 2008 draft

That's great research.  Can you explain a few things to me.

1.  Why all the 3-4 linebackers?  Should we compared the sacks between 4-3 DE's and 3-4 DE's????
2   How does the #1 have 88 tackles through 16 games last year and already 112 tackles through 11 game this year?  I have similar questions for #5 and #12.  So you don't have to do any research, #1's offense is on the field an average of 24 minutes a game.  Meaning he's on the field non-stop.

[todge]

Just to have a little fun with you before bed I decided to do a little research. 

I looked up the current top tacklers in the NFL here (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2011&seasonType=REG). 

I decided to look at the top 40, simply because #40 is where the very first New York Giant appears on the list (a FS, Rolle- our first LB would be Kiwanuka, at #57...).

I looked for LB's in the top 40 tacklers in the NFL who had also been drafted in the past 5 years, in the top three rounds, AFTER the Giants first pick in each respective drafts.  Here's what I came up with (#'s in front of player are their position in the top 40):

1.  Pat Angerer - 112 tackles - Drafted 63rd overall in 2010 draft
4.  Navorro Bowman - 103 tackles - Drafted 91st in 2010 draft
5.  D'Quell Jackson - 100 tackles - Drafted 34th overall in 2006 draft
5.  Curtis Lofton - 100 tackles - Drafted 37th overall in 2008 draft
7.  James Anderson - 97 tackles - Drafted 88th overall in 2006 draft
12.  James Laurinitis - 90 tackles - Drafted 35th overall in 2009 draft
13. Sean Witherspoon - 89 tackles - Drafted 19th overall in 2010 draft
16. Paul Posluszny - 84 tackles - Drafted 34th overall in 2007 draft
18. Deandre Levy - 81 tackles - Drafted 76th overall in 2009 draft
32.  Sean Lee - 71 tackles - Drafted 55th overall in 2010 draft
35.  Donald Butler - 70 tackles - Drafted 79th overall in 2010 draft
40.  Phillip Wheeler - 68 tackles - Drafted 93rd overall in 2008 draft

So there you go.  And you know what's weird about looking at tackle stats?  They're completely dominated by linebackers.  Amazing, isn't it?  Almost makes one think the position is important.

And those names don't even include the top-40 LB's taken in rounds 4+ or undrafted. (Kavell Connor, Jamar Cheney, Desmond Bishop, Wesley Woodyard, David Hawthorne).  Nor does it include the guys the Giants had no shot at drafting in the 1st round (Chad Greenway, Patrick Willis, Brian Cushing). It sure seems like there are a quite a few LB's out there in the past 5 years that are making a whole lot more contribution than any LB's our Giants have had flailing around over the same time span.

And to be clear todge- you appear to be right:  Good linebackers don't "grow on trees".  Apparently, they grow in the first three rounds of the NFL draft.

I would suggest that you don't rely on statistics to determine who is good and who isn't.

Pat Angerer is downright small, even smaller than Greg Jones.  Most of his tackles are made beyond the LOS.  He would never be a good fit with the Giants.

Bowman was very thin in college - and the vast majority of scouting reports slotted him to the Will.  The Giants already had Boley there.

D'Qwell Jackson was slotted to be a 3/4 guy only.

I could go on and on - but to be honest, are there any true "game changers" in that list?  I don't see any serious upgrades to what the Giants currently have outside of James Anderson at the Sam - but he resigned this year before hitting Free Agency.

Secondly - how do you know any of these particular players were available when the Giants' selection was to be made?  Perhaps they were poised to take any of these (outside of Angerer who is just too small for this scheme) but the player was drafted ahead of the Giants.

Lastly - every team, every fan, can play the "could have, should have, would have, game when it comes to Draft picks.  Teams don't have crystal balls to be able to look into the future and see who is going to pan and who doesn't.  All teams can do is stick to their Draft grades and pick the BPA at a position of need.  If it works out, fine - if it doesn't it, there is no point in playing the "we could have had this player" game.

[PSUBeirut]

I'd say every single one of those players listed is an upgrade for the Giants.  You see, they're linebackers....and they're making tackles.

You don't find it disconcerting that our DB's have led the team in tackles ever since Pierce left?  Pierce was the last good linebacker we had and, wouldn't you know it, he made a lot of TACKLES.

I'm not sure how you can so easily dismiss the stat of tackles.  It's pretty simple- we need linebackers that make more tackles.  They are obviously available to draft in rounds 1-3.  We don't draft them, so we go on having linebackers that suck and don't make a lot of tackles.

I really can't see how you can be this obtuse- it's a fairly obvious problem with the Giants defense and has been for years. 

[andrew_nyg]

PSU-

Great work!

Your research is excellent, and far more work than I was willing to do to state the OBVIOUS so THANK YOU very much! I mean that Sincerely.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this thread is going nowhere, because it's denigrated (for some) by insults and deflection. This is a great community, but sadly it can regress to a lot of disrespectful behavior because there are times (and posters) who refuse to simply concede a point or two now and then.

I don't know, I'd like to think that because we're all Giants fans, that we're all on the same side (wanting them to win), and brainstorming ways that make sense, and analyzing what's worked, and what's not. In a lighthearted (albeit passionate), fun discussion. Can I get emotional over it? Yes. That's a big part of my make-up. Am I stupid? I dunno, I guess at times...(I'll attribute that to 12 yrs of boxing, 14 yrs of wrestling and football...beginning at age 8) 

But if I'm accused of wanting Giants football back...REAL GIANTS FOOTBALL!...and if I'm accused of believing that the GM doesn't get what it's all about IE SMOTHERING DEFENSE, SMASHMOUTH running game...and a team who physically scares it's opponent (this goes all the way back to the EA yrs BTW)...then no doubt about it, I'm GUILTY as charged.

Thanks, again PSU

[files58]

Lack of LB's is a big problem no doubt. The real problem is no one clocked D. Jackson after flipping the ball to Fewell, no one clocked McNab after picking up the phone on our sideline a couple of years ago, both in our house no less. Pride and heart is lacking. If I were coach after the flip to Fewell I call the defense together and say boys we are all chipping in for the fine that will result from clocking Jackson on the next defensive series. Who wants to volunteer? Sounds like Buddy Ryan, doesn't it. Well football is not for the meek. After Jackson is laying on the turf making sure he is in one piece you let him know why. Guaranteed that crap doesn't happen again. What would Harry have done? If someone says the game is different now, ok what would Ray Lewis have done?

[andrew_nyg]

I partially agree, files...and NO DOUBT, any one of Harry, Pepper, Marshall, Burt...hell even Bavaro may have clocked him on the sideline in the act of  "the flip".

I don't agree about the bounty, to me that's not the Giants as an organization...but just the fact that they would have needed to discuss the bounty, instead of just instinctively WHACKING the guy is troublesome...especially the late hit on the QB.

I'm thinking of the same happening to Simms, there wasn't a player on that offense (including Simms...not an indictment on Eli, I know that's not his personality), who wouldn't have retaliated immediately.

Everyone here knows by now, the respect I have for TC...he is all about doing the right thing, and showing restraint and discipline. I'm sure his wish is that what happened would've WOKEN THEM UP to FINISH Philly off as soon as that happened....to your point...there is a serious HEART problem on this team...and fair or not....it starts with it's Captain.

[jerseyguy]

as mentioned before in another thread all people had to do was watch the play of JPP in the Saints game to see whats wrong with our defense, after JPP the defense had no heart and absolutely no hustle whatsoever. I was appalled at how lost they looked and just plain didn't seem to know what the hell they were supposed to do or who to cover, sure thats on the players but how can coaches put players like that on the field, the coaches have to know who knows the plays and who don't and if they don't they shouldn't be here either..

[NYSPORTS]

I'd say every single one of those players listed is an upgrade for the Giants.  You see, they're linebackers....and they're making tackles.

You don't find it disconcerting that our DB's have led the team in tackles ever since Pierce left?  Pierce was the last good linebacker we had and, wouldn't you know it, he made a lot of TACKLES.

I'm not sure how you can so easily dismiss the stat of tackles.  It's pretty simple- we need linebackers that make more tackles.  They are obviously available to draft in rounds 1-3.  We don't draft them, so we go on having linebackers that suck and don't make a lot of tackles.

I really can't see how you can be this obtuse- it's a fairly obvious problem with the Giants defense and has been for years.

If the Giants were playing a 3-4, those players mentioned might be upgrades or the current crop would have better stats.  If tackles are tackles then I guess sacks are sacks yet I doubt Osi would be too effective playing DE in a 3-4 just as many of the linebackers mentioned wouldn't be too effective in a 4-3.

B.T.W. - if stats are the main factor in a player being labeled successful or "suck"ing, you might want to start doing backflips for Williams as he's statistically having a better year than Lee did during his rookie season. 

[PSUBeirut]

I'd say every single one of those players listed is an upgrade for the Giants.  You see, they're linebackers....and they're making tackles.

You don't find it disconcerting that our DB's have led the team in tackles ever since Pierce left?  Pierce was the last good linebacker we had and, wouldn't you know it, he made a lot of TACKLES.

I'm not sure how you can so easily dismiss the stat of tackles.  It's pretty simple- we need linebackers that make more tackles.  They are obviously available to draft in rounds 1-3.  We don't draft them, so we go on having linebackers that suck and don't make a lot of tackles.

I really can't see how you can be this obtuse- it's a fairly obvious problem with the Giants defense and has been for years.

If the Giants were playing a 3-4, those players mentioned might be upgrades or the current crop would have better stats.  If tackles are tackles then I guess sacks are sacks yet I doubt Osi would be too effective playing DE in a 3-4 just as many of the linebackers mentioned wouldn't be too effective in a 4-3.

B.T.W. - if stats are the main factor in a player being labeled successful or "suck"ing, you might want to start doing backflips for Williams as he's statistically having a better year than Lee did during his rookie season.

So for the record- you believe the Giants have done an excellent job in staffing the linebacker position?  You don't think they could have a better defense if they had put more high round draft picks into the linebacker position?

Because that's all I'm saying- the Giants have had many opportunities to upgrade the linebacker position and have obviously failed to do so.  I provided a bevy of players that were available for the Giants to pick at the position that they skipped over.  To anyone looking at the facts and not trying to cherry pick at them to support a preconceived notion, it is obvious that the Giants for whatever reason have not been interested in acquiring quality linebackers in the draft.

And yes- tackles are tackles.  Whether it's a 4-3 or a 3-4, a tackle is a tackle.  And I want our LINEBACKERS making the tackles instead of our DEFENSIVE BACKS.  This is the New York Giants we're talking about, home of the most storied linebacking tradition in the NFL (rivaled only by Da Bears).  And it's gone completely to pot because it's a position that has been virtually ignored.  And I think our defensive struggles are directly attributable to that fact.

[NYSPORTS]

For the record?  Ah, no, I never said the Giants have done an excellent job at the LB position yet recognize . . . forget it, I'm not repeating myself again about the draft picks, rule changes, the 3-4 defense and that it's not the 1980's.

[Woody]

What I'm about to say hurts, because he has been one of my FAVORITE Giants.

I'm not sure what is up with Justin Tuck:
- Is he having a crisis of confidence?
- Is he frusterated because he's never 100%?
- Does he not believe in Fewell & the schemes?
- Does he not believe in his teammates?
- Or is it all of the above?

Whether it's any or all of the above, based on what he's been saying, it's GARBAGE LEADERSHIP...and he should be stripped of his Captainship, and perhaps even be shutdown for the balance of the season. His performance combined with his mouth has inspired NO ONE...in fact it's clear that he just doesn't BELIEVE...and the effect is he is hurting the coaching staff and the team.

One of the many reasons that I loved Harry Carson is reflected in his disgust for the Giants defense' performance over the past several weeks. HE was in JT's position...and HE DID IT RIGHT. His attitude was, (hurt or not) I AM SHUTTING THESE MOTHERF%^&KERS DOWN...AND YOU CAN JOIN ME OR GET IN LINE TO GET YOUR AZZ KICKED AFTER THE GAME!

NO ONE on this team offers that persona and NO COACH ON THE PLANET can create such a person...he either has it, or he don't.

This defense has NO HEART, it has NO sense of urgency, and too often have rolled their helmets out onto the field and said "I'm Osi Umenyiora...I'm Aaron Ross, I'm Antrelle Rolle, I'm FILL IN THE FREAKIN BLANK...so that is all that needs to be"

Reese has done NOTHING to bring in that ASSASSIN that this defense needs...MORE building a defense predicated on a dominant defensive line and little else is akin to a baseball team being built with a clean-up hitter surrounded by 8 .200 hitters. What happens when the clean-up guy isn't MASHING?! The team CAN'T WIN!

This organization needs a GIGANTIC paradigm shift...and it begins with the front office and defensive philosophy.

In short: WHERE THE HELL IS GIANTS FOOTBALL?!

Mr. Mara...please bring in the guy who can find it.

That's what I have been saying for two years ! Good post ! And no one else on this team has any mustard either !!!! Not Just Tuck ! Someone needs to step up and be a leader ! OSi can hit the road too as far as leadership goes ! NADA it ain't there . I wish I had Jim's #53 shirt !!!!!
It is really frustrating to listen to Banks, Cross, Carson and now Strahan to point out the very same thing to these spoiled overpaid wanta be "stars"!

[todge]

I'd say every single one of those players listed is an upgrade for the Giants.  You see, they're linebackers....and they're making tackles.

You don't find it disconcerting that our DB's have led the team in tackles ever since Pierce left?  Pierce was the last good linebacker we had and, wouldn't you know it, he made a lot of TACKLES.

I'm not sure how you can so easily dismiss the stat of tackles.  It's pretty simple- we need linebackers that make more tackles.  They are obviously available to draft in rounds 1-3.  We don't draft them, so we go on having linebackers that suck and don't make a lot of tackles.

I really can't see how you can be this obtuse- it's a fairly obvious problem with the Giants defense and has been for years.

I guess we can agree to disagree.  But with all due respect, you are totally discounting "schemes" and fits to those scheme as if they are meaningless.  Pat Angerer wouldn't even make the team, let alone be an upgrade.  In the Indy system, which is more of a free flow one where their linebackers are not asked to plug the LOS, Angerer is okay.  But is so small and downright tiny, that he would be smothered in the Giants' system.  Greg Jones is bigger than Angerer and he is totally overmatched here.

You also totally discount the fact that so many of those LBs you cited are Wills.  Why would the Giants spend a high draft pick on a Will when they already have Boley?  It seems as if you just want linebackers here, regardless of whether they would be a fit or not.  Which frankly I do not understand.

As to the Giants not wanting linebackers - how do you explain them ready to take Rolando MacClain in the 1st Round several years back? According to Vacchiano, Palmer and several other Giant beat writers, he was their second choice in the 1st Round (behind Spiller and ahead of JPP).

[MightyGiants]

Here's a good article on Pat Angerer

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/890692-why-pat-angerer-is-the-most-underrated-player-in-the-nfl

Two things Todge:

1) the Giants defensive schemes are not different than the regular 4-3 schemes.  An MLB in the 4-3 needs to be fast and can coverage, size isn't the big issue (as it was when this was a run first league)

2) As the article points out Pat is out of position and normally plays the Will

[jerseyguy]

I'd say every single one of those players listed is an upgrade for the Giants.  You see, they're linebackers....and they're making tackles.

You don't find it disconcerting that our DB's have led the team in tackles ever since Pierce left?  Pierce was the last good linebacker we had and, wouldn't you know it, he made a lot of TACKLES.

I'm not sure how you can so easily dismiss the stat of tackles.  It's pretty simple- we need linebackers that make more tackles.  They are obviously available to draft in rounds 1-3.  We don't draft them, so we go on having linebackers that suck and don't make a lot of tackles.

I really can't see how you can be this obtuse- it's a fairly obvious problem with the Giants defense and has been for years.

If the Giants were playing a 3-4, those players mentioned might be upgrades or the current crop would have better stats.  If tackles are tackles then I guess sacks are sacks yet I doubt Osi would be too effective playing DE in a 3-4 just as many of the linebackers mentioned wouldn't be too effective in a 4-3.

B.T.W. - if stats are the main factor in a player being labeled successful or "suck"ing, you might want to start doing backflips for Williams as he's statistically having a better year than Lee did during his rookie season.

So for the record- you believe the Giants have done an excellent job in staffing the linebacker position?  You don't think they could have a better defense if they had put more high round draft picks into the linebacker position?

Because that's all I'm saying- the Giants have had many opportunities to upgrade the linebacker position and have obviously failed to do so.  I provided a bevy of players that were available for the Giants to pick at the position that they skipped over.  To anyone looking at the facts and not trying to cherry pick at them to support a preconceived notion, it is obvious that the Giants for whatever reason have not been interested in acquiring quality linebackers in the draft.

And yes- tackles are tackles.  Whether it's a 4-3 or a 3-4, a tackle is a tackle.  And I want our LINEBACKERS making the tackles instead of our DEFENSIVE BACKS.  This is the New York Giants we're talking about, home of the most storied linebacking tradition in the NFL (rivaled only by Da Bears).  And it's gone completely to pot because it's a position that has been virtually ignored.  And I think our defensive struggles are directly attributable to that fact.

+1