Our defense

[LennG]

I'm not sold on Herzy yet, I'd like to see what he does in the off season before I put too much trust in him.  Don't get me wrong, like the player a lot, but I haven't seen anything yet to lead me to believe he's our future at mike.  I give him a lot of slack on criticism due to a strike shortened off season learning our D, and the fact he only started 2 games; regardless, I need to see more.

Problem is, do we have time to really evaluate him before we may have to go in a different direction??

Is he our guy for the future, do we go with Goff, or do we try and bring in a real player who can clog the middle for years to come.



Who knows if Herzy will even see the field again this season, and then it's just a short time till FA and the draft.
Personally, I think the Giants stay with Goff, do NOT go LB at all in the draft, and if Goff falters will give Herzy another shot.

[PSUBeirut]

Who knows if Herzy will even see the field again this season, and then it's just a short time till FA and the draft.
Personally, I think the Giants stay with Goff, do NOT go LB at all in the draft, and if Goff falters will give Herzy another shot.

I pray you're wrong, but I have a feeling you're right.  We need a player at LB.  We've invested a ton of money in the DL and secondary and have the worst defense we're ever seen.  Time to hit the LB's.

[Woody]

I see I am not alone in this type of thinking.

Look, I am not here to continually criticize the players, the DC, the schemes we run, or even how we play defense. But they are just hard to watch.

As we said, a  win is a win, but we really didn't win the game as much as the cowpukes lost it. Yes, JPP saved our hides, but if Newman takes that almost pick, in the first quarter, to the house, it is a different game. if Austin catches that easy pass the game is over. We got lucky on several accounts, but we did persevere, hang in there, when I was about to turn the TV off and go to sleep. Eli saved our ass, as he has several times this year.

But, as a very long time fan, and anyone who was around from the 80's and before, always associated the Giants with tough defense, this defense is just hard to watch. I have never seen so many guys so wide open in all my life. WOW.

Well said and I agree with your views of the defense. I just think there are bad players on the defense, Tuck,Osi are done ....trade ,get rid of them while they still may have some value out there. Ross is awful, injuries have hurt but league wide it is difficult to play aggressive defense with the recent rule changes over the past few years. Many high scoring games these days. Giants must be aggressive in offseason with FA's to address defensive needs.
AS you said ,it was nice to finally see a win , but if Romo hits Austin on 3rd down play , we would all be talking about cleaning house today. The same excuses every week ...missed assignments , blown coverages etc . I 'm not so sure it is as much Fewell's problem as it is a bunch of fair at best DB's  and dumb ones at that. The d line looks tired and is not getting much pressure on QB ! And as all have said a tremendous lack of talent at the LB position. Those needs need to be addressed in FA before Eli starts getting gray hair ! The rookies LB experiments aren't working !

[files58]

The antidote to the rule changes are some team building a destructive defense ala 85' Bears, 86'Giants, 00' Ravens. A defense that can take liberties with an offense and despite the ref's calls still will not be scored upon. A defense where a receiver is scared to come over the middle. It's a copycat league and it will force a turnaround. This no-touch nonsense is just that. Are there no purists among the owners?

[TONKA56]

The antidote to the rule changes are some team building a destructive defense ala 85' Bears, 86'Giants, 00' Ravens. A defense that can take liberties with an offense and despite the ref's calls still will not be scored upon. A defense where a receiver is scared to come over the middle. It's a copycat league and it will force a turnaround. This no-touch nonsense is just that. Are there no purists among the owners?

There is a lot of lip service given to the rule changes being made to protect the health of the players, but it's really all about money.

[NYSPORTS]

The antidote to the rule changes are some team building a destructive defense ala 85' Bears, 86'Giants, 00' Ravens. A defense that can take liberties with an offense and despite the ref's calls still will not be scored upon. A defense where a receiver is scared to come over the middle. It's a copycat league and it will force a turnaround. This no-touch nonsense is just that. Are there no purists among the owners?

There is a lot of lip service given to the rule changes being made to protect the health of the players, but it's really all about money.

1.  Don't forget about the '91 Eagles defense
2.  Yeah, it is ALL about money

3 - The NFL was always violent yet I wonder if the rule changes have increased the liklihood of concussions.  Yesteryear, teams used to play a lot of man on man with CB's lining up on the nose of a receiver (remember Haynes and Hanes?) .  The same was said by linebackers on TE's (remember Bavaro fighting off Seth Joyner?).  It's tougher to level a guy in limited space although the world of the linebacker yesteryear was perfect for gaining a little momentum and having a huge collision.  Still, linebackers were closer to the LOS than today (usually).  Back to the CB/WR; we saw the Greatest Show on Turf run right past defenders.  Then we saw the Tampa 2 to contain the Greatest Show on Turf.  Now we have these rule changes where, not just against a "Greatest Show on Turf", but against everybody, we see DB's lined off the opponents as opposed to right on them.  Rather than little space, the gap it huge.  Big enough to ramp up the speed full throttle and hit an opponent.  Even TE's who used to be mauled at the LOS, find themselves running free with a DB getting a clean shot at full throttle.  Forget the tackling techniques and wrapping the arms around legs,  now it's all about launching the shoulder into the mid-section at full throttle due to the running start.  Tremendous collisions are more frequent and similar to those collisions found on kickoffs.  Kickoffs in which, even at the Pop Warner level, aren't practiced with contact b/c nobody would be left. 

Now we see kickoff like collisions non-stop on practcally every play.  Are the rule changes to blame?

[Frith]

I'm not sold on Herzy yet, I'd like to see what he does in the off season before I put too much trust in him.  Don't get me wrong, like the player a lot, but I haven't seen anything yet to lead me to believe he's our future at mike.  I give him a lot of slack on criticism due to a strike shortened off season learning our D, and the fact he only started 2 games; regardless, I need to see more.

Problem is, do we have time to really evaluate him before we may have to go in a different direction??

Is he our guy for the future, do we go with Goff, or do we try and bring in a real player who can clog the middle for years to come.



Who knows if Herzy will even see the field again this season, and then it's just a short time till FA and the draft.
Personally, I think the Giants stay with Goff, do NOT go LB at all in the draft, and if Goff falters will give Herzy another shot.

I'm fine with Goff coming back assuming he comes back 100%.  He was proving Reese & Co. right, and then bam, out.  I think we have to go LB regardless if anything to get Kiwi back at DE where he's comfortable.  It's okay for a player to make the switch in a time of need (a la Rolle), but they excel at another location.  In all likelihood, Osi is gone.  Kiwi moves back to DE, we need a LB.  That's how I'm thinking draft day.

LB - G/T - 2ndary is my draft priority.

Eli has years at QB, we've got a great set of backs (maybe pickup a young kid to groom late), great young WRs, Ballard looks to be solid at TE and Pascoe misses the odd block but he's fairly solid.  We've got a great front 4 on paper in JPP, Tuck, Kiwi, and Joseph/Tolly.  Our secondary has a lot invested in it money and pick wise, but lets be honest, injuries killing us there.  Over the last few years we've had Thomas hurt twice, Phillips with microfracture, Ross out, Webster out... I mean, when CC Brown is a starter, you're in trouble.

What do you think, Lenn?

[Rambo89]

Who knows if Herzy will even see the field again this season, and then it's just a short time till FA and the draft.
Personally, I think the Giants stay with Goff, do NOT go LB at all in the draft, and if Goff falters will give Herzy another shot.

I pray you're wrong, but I have a feeling you're right.  We need a player at LB.  We've invested a ton of money in the DL and secondary and have the worst defense we're ever seen.  Time to hit the LB's.

This is the type of thinking the Giants front office needs to have.  They need to look at what they have been doing on defense and what the defense has become.  They need to re-evaluate their philosophy and make some changes to it.

Make those changes and bring in a DC that fits those players and you will see results.  If you do only one thing then you can expect to see similar results next season.

[todge]

IMO - when evaluating the Giants' defense, you have to take into account the massive amount of injuries to key players.  The Giant "needs" change significantly once those players return.

Herzlich is a Sam LB, not a Mike.  He played Sam in college and was being groomed for the position this year.  Only when Goff was injured and Jones failed, did the Giants get desperate and had to try someone.  But Herzy is not a MLB.  So to me, everyone seems to be focusing on the MLB while ignoring the tremendous need for a 3-down Sam. 

Once again, this year, the back end of the defense is proving to be a weak point.  I would suggest that the real focal point of the Giants will be to shore up that unit.  Grant, Rolle and KP just are not getting it done.  Is it time for a major overhaul?  I say yes.  Mark Barron of Alabama might be a start.

[jerseyguy]

some one needs to explain to me how our CBs and our 2 safeties can be so out of position and just plain blow so many coverages, this is the end of the season for crap sake, these guys should know what to do by accident and instead they look absolutely confused out there. I don't understand why these questions aren't being asked of Coughlin at his post game pressers. I blame our front office for a big chunk of this problem for bringing in a DC who uses this type of defense because it has always been a disaster for us and they had to know that..

[files58]

You build a defense from the DL on out. Our DL is fine. The problem with LB is twofold. Are there any quality free agents worth pursuing? I'm talking playmakers not plugins like Danny Clark. The college game is just not producing enough "Giant" LB's. How many Pepper Johnson types have come out in the last few years? Maybe a few and the GMEN have not been in a position to draft them.

[LennG]

Eli has years at QB, we've got a great set of backs (maybe pickup a young kid to groom late), great young WRs, Ballard looks to be solid at TE and Pascoe misses the odd block but he's fairly solid.  We've got a great front 4 on paper in JPP, Tuck, Kiwi, and Joseph/Tolly.  Our secondary has a lot invested in it money and pick wise, but lets be honest, injuries killing us there.  Over the last few years we've had Thomas hurt twice, Phillips with microfracture, Ross out, Webster out... I mean, when CC Brown is a starter, you're in trouble.

What do you think, Lenn?

What bothers me is still the unknown. By that I mean, we can build the defense with better players, but we still have players, who, when healthy, can compete with anyone. But that is the problem, when healthy. We simply have too many guys who are always hurting. Guys like Tuck, who, when healthy, is one of the best DE, but he is never completely healthy. Do we keep hoping he will be there and then when he is not, our entire defense suffers??> Guy like  Phillips, who can play when healthy, but again, never seems to be there as such. Forget Osi, he is gone. Thomas is another who, when healthy can play very well, but he also seems to be injury prone. Will Goff come back and play at a big time level right away??.

These are questions we have no answers for. No one knows about injuries. But when certain players are always on the injury report, maybe it's time we just cut them loose and start looking for replacements who can be on the field all season long.

Would the Giants ever think of cutting Tuck, I seriously doubt it, but unless he can play at 100%, he is hurting the team when he is in there. I would rather see Tolly, giving 110% than an injured Tuck giving 80%.

Again, my biggest fear is Reese will look at our roster and say we have enough LB's on the team right now, why draft anymore??