A switch to the 3-4 Defense............

[Giant Obsession]

intrigues the heck out of me, but only if JPP and Kiwi man the outside.  The schemeology an innovative DC

could employ would keep this pass happy league up at night.

I love our dearth of defensive linemen,  especially inside and I do realize we would have to find an effective nose tackle out of this, but I do not think it is far-fetched.

Two factors lead me to this............1.  This league as a whole is getting impossible to defend against with the status quo.................and 2.  We might as well blow up this mess we call a Defense and start over.

Kiwi and JPP would give OC a lot to think about.  Just imagine...............

Now, I await the eventual blasting of this idea.
 

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[MightyGiants]

Switching between 4-3 and 3-4 is rarely easy.  There are 2 different skill sets and types of players needed for both systems.   

In the 3 - 4 you need a stout 350 pound nose tackle who can take up 2 blockers.  You then need to large DEs with long arms who can 2 gap (Canty is a perfect example).  These DEs tend not to be play makers, but rather occupy opponents to the LBs can make the play.   

The Outside LBs in a 3-4 need to be able to provide at least 20 sacks a season and need to be able to drop into coverage.

The Inside LBs need to be larger and be able to take on O-lineman.

For the Giants you don't have a true nose tackle.   You have Canty who can play DE and JPP who could play the position.  However you would be wasting JPP's talents if you put him at DE. 

For Outside LBs you have Kiwi who could be an OLB.   Simtim, if he can recover from his knee injury, could be another.   That's really all you have there.

For Inside LBs you have Herzlich who could probably thrive at that position.  The team doesn't have another 3-4 inside backer.

Guys who wouldn't fit this scheme include:   Joseph, Austin, Boley, Tuck, Tolley, Osi, Paysinger and Williams


Each system has it's pluses and minuses.  Currently the league is split 50/50.  One of the interesting pluses of the 3-4 is it tends to be cheaper to build.  However with so many teams having switched from the 4-3 to the 3-4 I have to think supply and demand is minimizing this advantage and will continue to do so.

[Rambo89]

I am all for going to a 3-4 and would be willing to deal with the aproximate 2 year transition it may take.

[FuglyStick]

Not a fan of this idea, mostly because the lynch pin of the whole system is a dominant nose tackle, and has already been pointed out, the Giants don't have one, nor is there any guarantee that one could be drafted/signed.  I understand the desire to maximize the impact of players like JPP, but the 3-4 is risking too much in attempting that maximization.

[Giant Obsession]

One of the reasons that got me thinking this 3-4 weeks ago is JPP.  It is going to be such a shame when he

gets the inevitable knee problems that can be associated with double and triple teams, chop blocks while engaged, etc.  i know playing a monster LB is no guarantee preventing  injury, but i harken back to LT and a "relatively" injury free career.

I think JPP may be in the LT class of an ultra-special player, the kind who comes along every 20-30 years.

I want to maximize him and keep him on the field.  And I do realize we were a 3-4 team, before drafting LT, but it was an infant 3-4 team. 

I am willing to invest the time, because I do not think it will take that long...and while it is being developed I think it will give us benefits anyway.

I am not willing to watch more of this years defense, which has been slowly becoming impotent for the last 3 years.

Pressuring, confusing, attacking the the offense, and especially the QB is the only way to disrupt this pinball game that the top offenses now unleash week after week.

[jimmyz]

These days, the biggest difference between the 34 and 43 is that nobody knows for sure who the 4th pass rusher is.  That's the single biggest tactical advantage enticing teams to consider the 34. 

Remember the 34 almost went the way of the do do bird in the 90s because the emphasis was on speed on Defense which was considered more in line with the 43 and their smaller DLinemen and smaller LBs.  the 34 was considered a defense where everyone in the front was bigger than there 43 counterparts.

It's not that way anymore; at least not across the board.  The only 34 Ds with ties to the 80s are Belichick and his coaching tree.  This new version of the 34 has a distinctly different look about it.  It's not the big lumbering 34 defense of our youth.

[Jaime]

G.O. yes the 3 - 4 idea is intriguing. But I just can't help but thinking that with the return of TT & Goff, + the upgrade of two new S's, this D can't be formidable. As to your JPP concern. As mentioned, the LB's r the Play-makers in the 3 - 4. Even if Kiwi (which I'm not sold on as a LB) & JPP man the OLB spots, Canty is our only remaining DL whom would be usefull in the 3 - 4. We simply aren't currently built for the switch. We would have to sacrifice too many Players in their prime that couldn't make the transition due to the wrong skill-set & body type. JPP has already learned how to exploit the OL with his incredible range. The beauty of the 4 - 3 is the flexibility of the DE's. Not that I'm a fan of Zone Blitzes, but it's effective when used with restraint. Thinkin' we have to ride out our current 4 - 3 D scheme.
A better DC will make a world of difference for us.

[Rambo89]

G.O. yes the 3 - 4 idea is intriguing. But I just can't help but thinking that with the return of TT & Goff, + the upgrade of two new S's, this D can't be formidable. As to your JPP concern. As mentioned, the LB's r the Play-makers in the 3 - 4. Even if Kiwi (which I'm not sold on as a LB) & JPP man the OLB spots, Canty is our only remaining DL whom would be usefull in the 3 - 4. We simply aren't currently built for the switch. We would have to sacrifice too many Players in their prime that couldn't make the transition due to the wrong skill-set & body type. JPP has already learned how to exploit the OL with his incredible range. The beauty of the 4 - 3 is the flexibility of the DE's. Not that I'm a fan of Zone Blitzes, but it's effective when used with restraint. Thinkin' we have to ride out our current 4 - 3 D scheme.
A better DC will make a world of difference for us.

A better DC can't make up for a mediocre MIKE like Goff.  This defense needs a significant overhaul with a change in how it is built and how it is run.

[Jaime]

RAMBO, disagree re; Goff. I c him as currently an  av. NFL 4 - 3 MIKE. Yeah, in the Giant LB tradition he doesn't stack up too well. But that's some heavy comp. He's a better Leader than given credit for. He is a capable run stuffer, real good football IQ, & his Coverage skills were improving. If he can return to form, likely he's our MIKE.
Next year, we'll have enough talent to flank him properly.

[bamagiantfan]

Sure, our LBs are widely regarded as the greatest weakness on the team and the Defensive line generally considered it's greatest strength. Lets cut loose some of these Defensive line guys and put more of our LBs on the field.

 

[Rambo89]

RAMBO, disagree re; Goff. I c him as currently an  av. NFL 4 - 3 MIKE. Yeah, in the Giant LB tradition he doesn't stack up too well. But that's some heavy comp. He's a better Leader than given credit for. He is a capable run stuffer, real good football IQ, & his Coverage skills were improving. If he can return to form, likely he's our MIKE.
Next year, we'll have enough talent to flank him properly.

You are overrating Goff, IMO.  He wouldn't start on the majority of teams in the league. Even a guy from Vanderbilt his football IQ is not that good and he is weak in coverage.  If the Giants have any hopes of going anywhere in the near future they need a better player at that position than Goff unless the Giants are going to a 3-4 when you can hide him more so.  And no, there isn't enough talent to flank him properly on this roster.  You'll find out soon enough when your boy Fewell is replaced and you'll see similar results with this defense next season.  That is unless there are significant changes to the defensive roster.

[MightyGiants]

Each system has pluses and minuses

3-4 makes it more challenging to know who is coming, because only 3 players have their hand in the dirt.  Of course 4-3 defenses can counter this somewhat with the use of fire zone blitzes that have D-linemen dropping into coverage and an LB or DB rushing in their place

4-3 tends to be better pressure up the middle (assuming the D-line has a DT that can get a good middle rush).  A defense's ability to collapse the pocket or rush up the middle is a big plus in pass defense as it prevents a QB from being able to step into his throw or step up to avoid the edge rush.

3-4 needs to have players that are willing to sacrifice for the team.  D-lineman in the 3-4 is all about giving up themselves and their stats to allow LBs to make them instead.  This is an even bigger thing to ask when player's pay is tied to their stats. 

[JimboWHO]

The most ridiculous idea I've ever heard.  A team with no linebackers switching to a 3-4.

Wow!


JJM

[Jaime]

RAMBO, I'll bet u the lobster I'm goin' to take off jimy's hands, when DD isn't on the Roster next season.
So, u r takin' this a step further by stating that we currently don't have enough talent to flank Goff properly?
Currently, we have Boley & Willams @ WIL on the left flank. On the right flank, we have Herzey & Paysinger @ the SAM. Sounds good enough to me. Time will tell on this situation. A LB taken in 1st three Rds., or the signing of a high ticket FA LB says I'm wrong. If neither occurs, then it's all me Bro.

I'm alot more concerned about our DC next year, rather then our LB Corps.

[Giant Obsession]

Jaime +100

I honestly think there is plenty of raw material at linebacker to give us at least above average play,  They are getting valuable seasoning now....and with a break in injuries at that position, i am fine with them...although I have never figured Simtin out....and out is where he might be.

There is just too much talent on our D to play this abysmally.  I am frustrated up the wall.

How would you feel if we made Spagnolo the highest paid DC in the league, after his release by the Rams, and a promise to succeed TC when he retires.  Is that too much to offer ??  Eli has reached HOF performance and I feel will stay there for the next 4-5 years. 

I do not want to waste even one of those years going through this nightmare again.

I value your thoughts...is there anyone who tweaks your interest as our next DC, knowing what he has to do ??