Author Topic: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE  (Read 1669 times)

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MightyGiants

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Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« on: February 23, 2017, 08:03:27 AM »
This is a project I have been working on.  It's taking longer than I expected so I will release it in parts.  Here is part one

Fair disclaimer-  I have not scouted all of these players (I do go to the tape when I get conflicting reports) but I am using my knowledge learned in the scouting class to better understand the reports I read.   For this early breakdown, I am going with NFL.com (which overall does a pretty good job) and I am supplementing my reports with info from Walter Football, Rotoworld, Ourlads and CBS Sports.

So here is a breakdown of the NFL offensive linemen (grades are from NFL.com, see bottom for grade breakdown)

Ramczyk, Ryan   T   6'6"   314   Wisconsin      GR:   6.2  -  Greg G taught me that the number one cause of a draft bust in a lack of passion for the game.  Coming out of college he turned down a scholarship at Pitt to attend local community type colleges.  That is a real issue to consider with him and one that only interviews will answer.   The other big issue with him is he had surgery for "hip impingement in the beginning of January that has a 4 month recovery time span.   On top of that, while he worked his way up from division 3 ball, he only has one year with Wisconsin.   That said reports say he is athletic and he has good technique (which in my mind is important).   He will never be an overwhelming beast (hence the relatively low score for the highest rated O-linemen).  Still, they report he could be NFL ready and he could play LT.   If he is a ready to go NFL player and if his passion for the game checks out and if he is medically cleared there are good odds he will be gone by the time the Giants draft at 23.  Age wise he is either 22 or 23 having been born in 94.   If the Giants fail to upgrade at tackle I think it would be hard for Jerry Reese to pass on Ryan if he is still on the board.


Robinson, Cam       OT   6'6"   326   Alabama      GR:   6.1 Okay I said I wasn't going to review tape, but I had to on him.   I was getting conflicting scouting reports but I also heard comparisons to Ereck Flowers.   Well, I reviewed some tape on him and it was Deja Vue all over again.   I saw an athletic man mountain with poor technique and marginal footwork get by on power alone.   He is even around the same age as Flowers.   The only difference is it seems many scouts are projecting Cam to guard while others still hold out hope he could be an LT.  So anyone game for Flowers 2.0?


Lamp, Forrest   OG   6'4"   305   Western Kentucky   GR   6.1 -  Lamp had an impressive Senior Bowl week that created quite a bit of buzz.   Now he has played and played well, LT for Western Kentucky.  He even acquitted himself well when facing the better talent WK occasionally faced.    The one thing that really stands out about Lamp is his freakishly short arms.   There was much to do about Justin Pugh and his 32" arms being too short to play tackle.   Well, Lamp measured in at the Senior Bowl with 31 1/8" arms.   Reports also say it appears he has maxed out his frame so you are not going to see much more than that 305 weight.   So really it would seem the best position for Lamp would be Center.     There 305 is a fine weight and those T-Rex like arms shouldn't be an issue.   He is a bit light to play guard (and if he did it would most likely be LG rather than the run blocking RG).    So I see Lamp's best fit being a team looking for a center who can do some spot duty at guard.


Bolles, Garett   OT   6'5"   300   Utah      GR   6.1 -  The feel-good story of the draft.   Mother was a drug addict and he was a juvinal delinquent.  He even was completely out of football at one point working as a garage door repairman.  Got his life back together went to a junior college became highly recruited and went to Utah (ugh!  Spread offense) for a season and is not being talked about highly in the draft as an LT.   Now he is very athletic and has reasonably good technique.   There are two knocks on him.  First, he will be 25 years old in May (that means a team will get limited time with him).   The other is they say he needs to get stronger.   Now this one concerns me because he is 25 years old playing against guys 2 or 3 years younger than him.  He should be dominating even if he didn't have access to a top notch diet and fitness program.  Still many think he could be a first-round pick and some even think he might be the Giants pick.



Johnson, Dorian   OG   6'5"   315   Pittsburgh    GR   5.8-  Dorian is the recipient of many awards over his career and in particular this past season.   Scouting reports are all over the place.  Some reports see him maybe sneaking into the bottom of the first round while others see him as a day 3 pick.  This forced me to look over some tape.   What I saw was a LG who neither wows or does anything that is glaringly wrong.  He doesn't seem to generate all that much power in the running game, so I wonder how well he would upgrade the RG position if drafted.  He did start some games as a true freshman which is an accomplishment especially for O-linemen. Still, there are reports that some scouts see him a solid 10 year player.  Johnson could be a good pick in the 3rd round and an okay pick in the second round in my opinion. 


Feeney, Dan   OG   6'4"   304   Indiana   GR   5.7-  In some ways he and Dorian Johnson are very similar prospects.   Dan did play RG rather than LG.  I like that he   The reports I read Feeney seem a little more consistent in that he gets good reviews.  Team captain which the Giants like.   There was one AFC scout who questioned his strength.   Looked pretty good at the Senior Bowl as well.   I think he would be a solid guard.  He started all his games as a true freshmen which is very impressive.  If the Giants want to fill the RG position in this draft I think they could do worse than drafting Feeney in the 2nd.   The only cause for concern is he lost his sophomore season to Linsfranc and he missed some of his senior year with a concussion.

Garcia, Antonio   OT   6'6"   293   Troy      GR   5.7-  LT who played very well at Troy 4 seasons with a redshirt freshman year.  Never gave up a sack.   He is very athletic as you would expect from a former hooper.  There are concerns about his weight as the 293 was most likely the heaviest he has been this season.   Antonio is a raw prospect, though.   He is the sort of prospect you would expect to redshirt for a season.   So he is not the ideal draft pick for the Giants as they need immediate help.   In this very weak OT class, he could be over drafted and not even be an option when the Giants pick in the second round.


Banner, Zach   OT   6'8"   361   USC   GR   5.7-   A massive man, pretty much as big as they come in the football world.   He played RT for USC after a redshirt freshman year and an injury-shortened sophomore year.  The book on him is he is powerful as one might expect at his size.  However he has problems keeping his weight down, does not bend at the knees like he should (a big issue for a man this tall) and he isn't the quickest of linemen.   Still, he is big and he moves well for a man his size.   He is the sort of player a team takes a 4th or 5th round flyer on to see if he can play guard or RT.  That said, he has been losing weight and if he manages to get his weight down he might shine at the combine and that could raise his stock.  Interesting Giants connection, he is the son of former Raider Lincoln Kennedy and he was thinking of entering the 2015 draft but the Giants O-diggy so abused him when they met that he stayed in school.  He thought about coming out last season as well but the draft council didn't give him a high enough grade (they tell prospects where they believe they will be drafted) so he stayed in school for the 2016 season.


Johnson, Roderick   T   6'7"   311   Florida St.   GR      5.7-  A guy that has the size and athletic ability that is textbook OT.  There are some scouts that are reportedly high on him and I can only say based on what I saw of him they are high as in they enjoying recreational drugs.   Roderick gets stop dead in his tracks when he tries to run block, he has very quick feet that allow him to retreat with his man right into the QB's lap and I have rarely witnessed an offensive lineman that is so easily shed.  His technique is not terrible, it's just that he fails to produce results.  Now, it's possible he played better in some of the game I didn't watch but in my mind consistency is one of the most important traits you want in an offensive lineman.   This isn't WR where a few big plays in a game is what it takes, a lineman needs to be good play in and play out.    I suspect he might wow people at the combine, but this is a player the Giants need to stay away from


Dawkins, Dion   OG   6'4"   317   Temple   GR   5.7-   This is a player I would LOVE to draft in round 2.   You will see him listed alternately as 6' 3" or 6' 4" (his actual height is 6' 3 7/8") and many will immediately assume he will be a guard in the NFL (being an inch or two too short).  However, I wouldn't be so quick to move him from his college position of LT.   He has nice long arms at 34 5/8 inches and an impressive 84 1/4 wingspan.  I believe those traits will allow him to remain at tackle even in the NFL.   Temple while a lower level of competition runs a pro style offense which means his learning curve will not be as steep as a spread offense lineman. I watched him hold his own against Penn State.  He shows good movement, strength, and good balance.   Like many there are parts of his technique that could use cleaning up but overall I liked what I saw.  I see Dawkins as a possible OT who could also play guard.   As Todge said, the Giants love versatility and I see Dawkins able to play every position but center.  Some will say he has character concerns because he was arrested after a fight with fellow students, but barring extenuating circumstances that doesn't concern me too much.   My only fear is that other teams see Dawkins potential at Tackle and he fails to last until the Giants 2nd pick.  Also, started at tackle as a true freshman until a broken foot ended his season.

Moton, Taylor   OG   6'5"   330   Western Michigan   GR   5.6-  The book on Dion is he is a powerful RT/RG player.  Many scouts seem to think he would be a better RG than a RT owing to a lack of footspeed.   He is very smart (3.84 GPA business major) and strong.   He could be a solution to the need at RG in the 3rd round or better yet the 4th round.  The ability to play RT in a pinch is a plus.   Think a healthier (hopefully) Geoff Schwartz.


Siragusa, Nico   OG   6'5"   330   San Diego St.   GR   5.5-  A powerful and effective run blocker who will most likely project to RG at the NFL level after playing mostly LG with the Aztecs (first season he did play RG).  Can pull effectively and is strong in pass blocking.  The issue is he can be slow out of his stance and quicker DTs could be a challenge for him.  Still not a bad pick to fill a RG position in rounds 3 or 4.  Many were hoping to get a better look at him at the Senior Bowl but a thumb injury sidelined him for much of the event.

Asiata, Isaac   OG   6'3"   325   Utah     GR   5.5-  Powerful run blocking guard who projects to LG by many.   He played LG for most of his college career but also played some C (due to injuries) and some RT.   Not the best pulling guard (which may make him a poor fit for the Giants.  Older than most rookies at 24 (when on a Church mission for a year or so with the Church of LDS).   Known more for his run blocking than his pass blocking.  Might be a consideration for the Giants if he falls to the 4th round even with the fit issues.

Beyond these guys I have listed you are looking at guys with ceilings of marginal starters or backups or are long-term projects who will be unable to contribute to the team for at least a season or two (if ever).  I will include this one final write-up as he has gotten some play among draftniks

Davenport, Julie'n   OT   6'7"   310   Bucknell   GR 5.2-  Has all the tools one looks for in a LT including vine like 36" arms.   I suspect he will even test well at the combine with the exception of the bench press.    Faced low-level competition and didn't' always dominate at that level.   He struggled quite a bit at the Senior Bowl when facing talent that is more NFL caliber.   Unfortunately, this is the sort of all potential no production player Reese seems to love when it comes to drafting offensive linemen (see Brewer, McCants and Mosely).    Hopefully if Jerry does take a flyer on Julie'n he waits to the very lower rounds.   Just because a player looks like an offensive tackle doesn't mean he is one.

Here is Mike Mayock's initial rankings for the OT and OG positions

Offensive tackle

1. Ryan Ramczyk, Wisconsin
2. Garett Bolles, Utah
3. Antonio Garcia, Troy
4. Roderick Johnson, Florida State
T-5. Taylor Moton, Western Michigan
T-5. Jermaine Eluemunor, Texas A&M

Interior OL

1. Forrest Lamp, Western Kentucky
2. Cam Robinson, Alabama
3. Dan Feeney, Indiana
4. Ethan Pocic, LSU
5. Dion Dawkins, Temple


GRADE   TITLE
9.00-10   Once-in-lifetime player
8.00-9.00   Perennial All-Pro
7.50-7.99   Future All-Pro
7.00-7.49   Pro Bowl to All-Pro Ability
6.50-6.99   Good NFL Starter with Pro Bowl Potential
6.00-6.49   Chance to become good NFL starter
5.70-5.99   Could become early NFL starter
5.30-5.69   Backup or eventual starter
5.15-5.29   Developmental prospect or special teams potential
5.01-5.14   Back end of the roster
5.00   50/50 Chance of making the roster


http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/tracker?icampaign=draft-sub_nav_bar-drafteventpage-tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:ol

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000785722/article/mike-mayocks-2017-nfl-draft-position-rankings
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 08:21:26 AM by Vette »
"THE 2007 and 2011 GIANTS WERE NEVER PERFECT, NOR MEANT TO BE.  THEY WERE FIGHTERS, SCRAPPERS, NOW THEY CAN BE CALLED SOMETHING ELSE....WORLD CHAMPIONS!"

Bob In PA

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 08:39:52 AM »
Slim pickin's.

MightyGiants

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2017, 08:52:37 AM »
Slim pickin's.

Pretty much Bob.  While I haven't gone into depth with the rest of the back I have reviewed them and none of them really jump off the page.  Although, there is one player who will be in part 2 that intrigues me and that is Dion Dawkins
"THE 2007 and 2011 GIANTS WERE NEVER PERFECT, NOR MEANT TO BE.  THEY WERE FIGHTERS, SCRAPPERS, NOW THEY CAN BE CALLED SOMETHING ELSE....WORLD CHAMPIONS!"

Vette

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 09:04:37 AM »
Nice job, Rich. Thank you!
"There is a greater purpose...that purpose is team. Winning, losing, playing hard, playing well, doing it for each other, winning the right way, winning the right way is a very important thing to me... Championships are won by teams who love one another, who respect one another, and play for and support one another."
~ Coach Tom Coughlin

WheresDayne

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2017, 09:44:00 AM »
Using the grading system you have above, how would you grade our current OL?  Just for comparison....

MightyGiants

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2017, 09:53:32 AM »
Using the grading system you have above, how would you grade our current OL?  Just for comparison....

These were NFL.com's grades, but I am still game:

Ereck Flowers 5.7
Bobby Hart 5.6
Justin Pugh 6.7
Weston Richburg 6.8
Brett Jones 5.5

The others on the roster I haven't seen enough of to grade
"THE 2007 and 2011 GIANTS WERE NEVER PERFECT, NOR MEANT TO BE.  THEY WERE FIGHTERS, SCRAPPERS, NOW THEY CAN BE CALLED SOMETHING ELSE....WORLD CHAMPIONS!"

Jaime

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2017, 03:47:26 PM »
Good job Rich. Slim Pickens is right! We need to sign free-agent offensive lineman, that way we know what we're getting. You draft somebody, they may or may not be a player. We can't roll the dice again with the OL. ~X(

MP21WAYS2PAY

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2017, 04:24:46 PM »
Ramczyk, Ryan   T   6'6"   314   Wisconsin      

If the Giants fail to upgrade at tackle I think it would be hard for Jerry Reese to pass on Ryan if he is still on the board.

That is my 3rd least favorite reason for drafting someone.  Reminds me of Prince Amukamara.

#2 is, they drafted the guy we wanted right before we picked, and we panicked.

My #1 least favorite reason for drafting someone is:  He is the NCAA's all-time rushing leader.

DanUK

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2017, 04:30:02 PM »
This is why you should go defence with the 1st round pick. Terrible year for what we need at 23 on offence.

Philosophers

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2017, 05:24:34 PM »
Unless it's a TE like OJ or David

Mr. Matt

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 05:38:22 PM »
Really well done Rich. Thanks for sharing this info and your perspective.

Hadron

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2017, 07:28:19 PM »
Yeah, watching Cam Robinson was eerily familiar to watching ole Ereck..

UKGiantsFan

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 08:19:04 AM »
Yeah, watching Cam Robinson was eerily familiar to watching ole Ereck..

Glad people are seeing him as I do! He's Train-reck's penalty prone, same mistake making long lost brother

UKGiantsFan

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 08:21:57 AM »
Can't wait to read what you think of Roderick Johnson. You'll have to go to the tape because reviews are so different.

Personally I think he's horrific but he'll look great off the hoof at the Combine

MightyGiants

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Re: Early Offensive Line Breakdown COMPLETE
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2017, 09:42:40 AM »
Can't wait to read what you think of Roderick Johnson. You'll have to go to the tape because reviews are so different.

Personally I think he's horrific but he'll look great off the hoof at the Combine

I am going to watch some tape, but based on the reports I have read (he is actually the prospect I am currently working on) you summed it up pretty well.  Looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane.   My expectation when I start to review him is that I will be looking at prospects like Cam Erving and Ereck Flowers, guys with impressive size and physical gifts but have no ability or perhaps lack the desire to play like an offensive lineman needs to play.   He sounds like another, get by on his size and strength type prospect.

In light of the less than impressive showings of both Flowers and Erving (a guy I confess to liking), I am souring on the whole "we can fix them" mentality.
"THE 2007 and 2011 GIANTS WERE NEVER PERFECT, NOR MEANT TO BE.  THEY WERE FIGHTERS, SCRAPPERS, NOW THEY CAN BE CALLED SOMETHING ELSE....WORLD CHAMPIONS!"