Author Topic: X and O experts chime in  (Read 200 times)

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LarryD

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X and O experts chime in
« on: March 20, 2017, 07:33:02 AM »
I posted this during the season but am still struggling to find an explanation. I'm hoping the resident experts can pipe in and provide some insight.

Why didn't they use a 6th OL to help Flowers?

I don't remember the year or the player but I do remember one season hearing repeatedly on the stadium PA system that player 6x is reporting as eligible. It was not once or twice it was 10-20 times a game. My interpretation at the time was the OL needed help and rather than bring in a tight end they went with 6 OL. Hence a lineman lining up in the tight end position but because of his number needed to announce to the ref's he was an eligible receiver.

Ben's strength is offense. Why wouldn't he try a tried and proven solution to the struggles they were having. :-??

Jolly Blue Giant

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Re: X and O experts chime in
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 08:37:55 AM »
Isn't that what Belichick did once the threw everyone into a tizzy? He used 6 linemen and one declared himself as a receiver. Then Brady dumped a pass off to him and everyone threw fits because they thought that was an infraction worthy of a penalty, but instead was a first down.

From what I could tell, people hated the idea because it was so far out of traditional football or something like that. I don't think Belichick ever tried it again after that.

MightyGiants

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Re: X and O experts chime in
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 08:45:02 AM »
Usually, when you hear an O-lineman reporting as eligible, they are essentially playing the TE position but their number indicates they are an offensive lineman.   It's quite common to see this happen in short yardage situations.   So while it's not incorrect to say the team is using 6 offensive linemen, it's more accurate to say one of the offensive linemen is playing the TE role.    Now you might wonder why this isn't done more than in short yardage situations, and the reason is most offensive lineman are one dimensional.  They can block but they can't catch.  So that limits what an offense can do and makes it more predictable (owing to one potential receiver being assured a blocking role) and hence a little easier to defend
"THE 2007 and 2011 GIANTS WERE NEVER PERFECT, NOR MEANT TO BE.  THEY WERE FIGHTERS, SCRAPPERS, NOW THEY CAN BE CALLED SOMETHING ELSE....WORLD CHAMPIONS!"

Vette

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X and O experts chime in
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 09:03:02 AM »
Usually, when you hear an O-lineman reporting as eligible, they are essentially playing the TE position but their number indicates they are an offensive lineman.   It's quite common to see this happen in short yardage situations.   So while it's not incorrect to say the team is using 6 offensive linemen, it's more accurate to say one of the offensive linemen is playing the TE role.    Now you might wonder why this isn't done more than in short yardage situations, and the reason is most offensive lineman are one dimensional.  They can block but they can't catch.  So that limits what an offense can do and makes it more predictable (owing to one potential receiver being assured a blocking role) and hence a little easier to defend
Yes Rich, the only reason to do it is to run the ball, be a decoy or mass protect in a kitchen sink pass rush situation. It still puts three receivers on the field in an 11 but usually they go to a 12 in that situation, correct?

Rich, I once thought that since Will Beatty was a converted TE that he could be utilized most effectively in this formation but it was so odd that he never saw the field last season and we have heard nothing about him in the FA market. I think BM deployed this about a half dozen times last season. Do you recall if they passed off it at all? I seem to recall him doing it once or Eli saw the mismatch and called it. I also thought we would see more of Brett Jones at FB since he looked pretty good in that role one game but that never developed. I expected more creativity from BM, quite frankly.


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MightyGiants

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Re: X and O experts chime in
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 09:07:57 AM »
Yes Rich, the only reason to do it is to run the ball, be a decoy or mass protect in a kitchen sink pass rush situation. It still puts three receivers on the field in an 11 but usually they go to a 12 in that situation, correct?

Rich, I once thought that since Will Beatty was a converted TE that he could be utilized most effectively in this formation but it was so odd that he never saw the field last season and we have heard nothing about him in the FA market. I think BM deployed this about a half dozen times last season. Do you recall if they passed off it at all? I seem to recall him doing it once or Eli saw the mismatch and called it. I also thought we would see more of Brett Jones at FB since he looked pretty good in that role one game but that never developed. I expected more creativity from BM, quite frankly.


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Ed,

The Giants probably have passed off this formation (either the 11 or 12) if the team brings extra pass rushers.  The problem becomes if the team doesn't bring the extra rushers and the offensive line has can more than handle the rush on their own.  That's why ar proper blocking TE is the better choice.  You take Ellison, yes he might not be as strong a blocker as say Will Beatty but he can get the job done and if he isn't needed to block he is a superior choice to send out in a pattern.   Then you have the best of both worlds where the TE chip blocks to help an OT with an outside speed edge rusher and then runs his pattern.   
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 09:16:25 AM by MightyGiants »
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Vette

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Re: X and O experts chime in
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 09:15:25 AM »
Ed,

The Giants probably have passed off this formation (either the 11 or 12) if the team brings extra pass rushers.  The problem becomes if the team doesn't bring the extra rushers and the offensive line has can more than handle the rush on their own.  That's why ar proper blocking TE is the better choice.  You take Ellison, yes he might not be as strong a blocker as say Will Beatty but he can get the job done and if he isn't needed to block he is a superior choice to send out in a pattern.   Then you have the best of both worlds where the TE chip blocks to help an OT with an outside speed edge rusher and then runs his patter.
Yes, with the addition of Ellison, this formation would only be used in Goalline to run one yard.


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COGiantFan

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Re: X and O experts chime in
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 12:05:23 PM »
Yes Rich, the only reason to do it is to run the ball, be a decoy or mass protect in a kitchen sink pass rush situation. It still puts three receivers on the field in an 11 but usually they go to a 12 in that situation, correct?

Rich, I once thought that since Will Beatty was a converted TE that he could be utilized most effectively in this formation but it was so odd that he never saw the field last season and we have heard nothing about him in the FA market. I think BM deployed this about a half dozen times last season. Do you recall if they passed off it at all? I seem to recall him doing it once or Eli saw the mismatch and called it. I also thought we would see more of Brett Jones at FB since he looked pretty good in that role one game but that never developed. I expected more creativity from BM, quite frankly.


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This. 

To be honest, have we really seen ANY creativity from Mac?  He runs McCarthy's offense, by and large, which is a bad fit (why does Eli dump it off so quick?  Because he cannot run around and extend a play like Rodgers-probably the most important aspect of the McCarthy offense) yet last year was an example of banging your head against a brick wall and just doing the same things over and over.  If ever there was a venue for exercising creativity it is an ineffectual plain vanilla offense .

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Vette

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Re: X and O experts chime in
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 12:27:36 PM »
This. 

To be honest, have we really seen ANY creativity from Mac?  He runs McCarthy's offense, by and large, which is a bad fit (why does Eli dump it off so quick?  Because he cannot run around and extend a play like Rodgers-probably the most important aspect of the McCarthy offense) yet last year was an example of banging your head against a brick wall and just doing the same things over and over.  If ever there was a venue for exercising creativity it is an ineffectual plain vanilla offense .
Last season the league figured him out. Now it's up to him to come up with solutions.


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