Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 08:40:05 PMBecause the game has changed drastically in the past 12 years. The NFl has passed so many rules to help not only the Qb but the WR among other things.

You said raw stats tell the story. Did raw stats only tell the story for the past three years?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 09:01:39 PMThat was 12 years ago but if Jones was throwing for 300 yards and 2 tds a game we wouldn't be having this discussion.

With all due respect, why does it being 12 years ago matter?

Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 04:00:56 PMThat right there. Unless you are the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens, it's just not gonna happen with Jones. Go through his career and look how many games where he put the team on his shoulders and beat a real good team. (And I can hear the chorus of excuses blowing in the wind).

Here's a hypothetical, because why not?:

How do you all think Jones would perform if he were swapped with Brock Purdy? I continually here that Purdy is nothing special and he just quarterbacks a loaded offense. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 03:44:59 PMI think so. It's not just me, PFF gave Barkley a 58.3 receiving grade for 2022, which is pretty bad when you consider they start out with a 60.0

But is he a bad route runner or can he just not catch? I never liked the way he was used as a receiver. Way too many third downs where he was expected to catch a dump off and then run over a guy or make a guy miss, often when everyone in North America knew he was getting the ball.

Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:39:43 PMI get it.

He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.

The best he gives you is playing up to the xs and os. The only time he gives you big play ability is with his running, which further exposes himself to injuries. He pocket awareness is poor too. He gets surprised by the back end pressure way too often.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 03:34:24 PMThe problem with Barkley is he ran well, but he was terrible as a receiver

Do you really think he was "terrible?"

Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 09:40:27 AMExplain

OK. All I'm saying is that should the Giants give up substantial capital to move up and take a quarterback like JJ, then the legacy of Schoen is going to reside almost solely on that move, similar to how Gettleman is linked to Jones. If Jones had turned out to be a superstar, Gettleman would be a hero. I was more making an observation about the situation, not advocating for what Schoen should or shouldn't do. That's why I asked if it would be worth it. Rest assured the folks that say "absolutely" will be there to roast Schoen if he drafts the wrong guy and gives up the farm to get him. That's just the reality of it. But who knows, maybe the folks that roast Jones today will blame the offensive line for the would be failures of his successor. Fandom is always an interesting analysis of the human condition. 

Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 07:31:09 AMDon't think the Giants gave up draft picks for Jones. And so I guess we can put Schoen in the same category as Gettleman after two years? I guess it will always be hopeless for the Giants in hiring GM's who can make 100 percent accurate draft picks. It's a risk business.

Really? That's what you took away from what I said?

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 17, 2024, 11:12:30 PMEvery highly drafted QB that turned out to be a bust had a team that did their homework and loved him.  Just sayin'. 

Like say Daniel Jones for example.

Quote from: katkavage on April 17, 2024, 05:44:27 PMAbsolutely if the GM is convinced the player can be a star at the position. The Giants did it with Eli. If they aren't proactive where does that leave them for the future? I would rather they get a QB at 6 but if they really love someone they need to go up and get, they should. The reward will exceed the risk of it works out. QB is that important and right now they need one.

I've thought about it a lot. That's where our GM becomes a hero on a bum out the door in a single maneuver. If Schoen stays put and lets the draft come to him, he's perhaps less exposed and Daboll's seat is warmer than his  If he makes a very aggressive move to grab a quarterback, he's either a genius or a moron in a few short years. Go big or go home I guess, but I'd really prefer not to move up for any of these guys since none of them have Luck/Elway credentials.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 04:59:26 PMIf the Giants want to move up their capital is significant more attractive than the Vikings. So if we want a guy we should be able to easily outbid the vikings.

Do you think it's worth it to move up and take JJ or Maye if it costs next years' pick #1?

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 17, 2024, 04:04:53 PMI don't buy that excuse either because there was no great disparity in TOP.  29.26 on offense and 30.34 on defense.  And the Giants offense did not give up an inordinate number of turnovers, 12th fewest in the league.

It's easy to say ignore stats and go by the eye test, but stats impose a discipline on the eye test.  They confirm or challenge what you think the eye test is showing you.

I think the offense was so bad that by comparison the defense LOOKED better than it actually was.  Then you have to come up with 'eye test' reasons why the defense was better than it was, but when those eye test reasons are assessed by the discipline of stats they aren't born out.

My conclusion is that the defense was bad.  Not as horrifically bad as the offense, but bad nonetheless.  And that they were bad because they were bad, not because the offense was bad.  The offense managed to hold the ball half the time, so the defense wasn't (or shouldn't have been) exhausted.  The offense gave up fewer than average turnovers.  As for the '3&out" argument, the offense was just below average in average # of plays, so that doesn't wash either.

Just to clarify, this is in response both you and @philosopher.

I agree that the defense was bad. I'm not making any excuses. I'm just saying that people can always see what they want to see in football.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 17, 2024, 02:56:24 PMDon't you think the problems of the defense were also at
Dont you think many of the problems of the D were because the offense could not score points, sustain drives and often out the D in bad spots?

Also forget stats.  What did yours eyes see?  I saw a team that struggled to score 15 points in a game.  I rarely saw a D that just rolled over and let the opposing team put up 30 every week.

Chaos theory reigns supreme in football. No one is ever wrong in their analysis because everything can be attributed to a causality of the critic's bias.

But yeah, even the best defense will break eventually after the offense commits enough consecutive 3 and outs or turnovers

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 17, 2024, 12:43:43 PMI'm guessing you wanted to see a QB (probably Maye) to the Giants.  Am I close?  Bob

And yes, you were very close. You know how I think.

I wasn't even born until 1972 and I'm still pissed off about it.