Big Blue Huddle

After two polls gauging the barometer of sentiment toward the OC and DC, it looks like both have majority support. If that's the case, at this point in the season what support if any is there for Tom Coughlin?

In what looks like a fourth straight year out of the playoffs it's time to go in another direction.  You're not handing him a 2017 contract off of this to avoid lame duck status next year. 

I love what the man has done for the team BUT I say a major shake up is needed. I'm sure the next poll will be about the GM.....he goes as well!

I voted # 2.  Even so, I think he should retire after this season.  But, where does that leave the team?  I don't see anyone out there better than him.

I think TC has earned the right to leave on his own terms rather than be ridden out of town on a rail.
That being said - I wouldn't mind if he decided to retire after this season.

Not because I don't think he's a good coach or he is losing it. But because no coach can turn chicken sh*t into chicken salad. No coach has done more with less but keeping him on without the talent is cruel and unusual punishment for a man who deserves better.

No offense but: Where's the Jerry Reese poll?

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on December 22, 2015, 10:10:35 AM
No offense but: Where's the Jerry Reese poll?

I think that's next.  Vette probably just wants each poll to have some time to breath and get noticed. 

Quote from: jimv on December 22, 2015, 09:56:33 AM
I voted # 2.  Even so, I think he should retire after this season.  But, where does that leave the team?  I don't see anyone out there better than him.

This is exactly my feeling - torn.  I just lost some respect for him after the Dallas fiasco.  He's handled Beckham  poorly as well.


JJM

I can't see how TC can escape his responsibility in this OBJ fiasco, he saw what was going on and did nothing. Maybe if he had stepped in and sat OBJ down and had a coach talk with him things wouldn't have escalated to the point that it did. I also can't see how Norman escaped with no league penalties and I might add that the officials in that game were responsible in a big way.

I didn't pick one of the choices because it doesn't line up with my thought, which is this: for me, TC's wagon is hitched to Eli. I don't want Eli to have to go through a head coaching and philosophy change, another offensive coordinator and system during his last few good years. I figure Eli's got a solid 4-5 prime years left in this system. He's getting the ball out quicker and taking less hits, prolonging his health. McAdoo's system is good for Eli even though many fans here don't like the play calling.

I think TC can still be effective with more talent defensively. The offense isn't far off. Offensive line health has been the biggest factor. Defense is sorely lacking. It'll probably take 2-3 years to get it where it needs to be. I still feel defense wins championships but with this offense, we can run up the score as well. TC's made some questionable calls that, if they had worked out, would not be discussed past that particular game. I don't think he should be let go or forced to retire but I also understand it's a results-oriented business. Superbowl victories do indeed have a shelf life. 2011-2012 is getting smaller and smaller in the rear view mirror.

Prior to the Carolina game, I would said TC had the right to another year or two - if he wanted it. I felt TC's failure to remove Beckham from the game is a serious black mark on what I consider a HOF career. You cannot be a leader when you allow a guy to completely go over the edge out on the field. I have never seen TC look weaker. Very sad. Good man, good coach. Now, there's a little tarnish that did not need to be there.

There is one thing the Giants hate more than losing to Dallas and that is being in the headlines for the wrong reasons, and that is exactly where we are.

In think just about everyone agrees that Coughlin should have done SOMETHING and he didn't. Almost everyone agrees that former Tom Coughlin WOULD have dune something and this new version didn't. Sorry, but I respect Tom and everything he has done for this team, but his time has come now. What we are seeing is a shell of the other Tom Coughlin, for what reason's I have no idea. But it is now time to move on. And I don't buy there is no one out there any better. As of now, the NFL is littered with former HC's who lost their team and coached fearing for their job. There ARE many young, on the way up coaches out there and I'd be willing to take a shot on one of them.

I honestly have no real idea on what TC is and is not doing.

It appears he has lost his sense on the real time game.  He has lost his ability to play the chess match of X's and O's with the opposing coach.

He has beckham putting up solid numbers. TC has been a second father to many a man that have come to the Giants, so it is hard to tell what is going on with Beckham.  Moving forward the Giants will need to bring him along differently.  Is TC the guy for this?  In the past I would say yes, but I am not sure anymore.

His teams are streaky at best, and at times they do not seem prepared as they could be regardless of TC's Big picture organization. 

I think he is still doing good in other areas and overall, not great, but good.

IS good enough? 

How will they spend the  wind fall of cap space? 

If Reese screws up the 10's of millions of cap space this teams problems will go on for many years to come. 

I suspect Reese and TC will both be back with a 45% overturn on the roster.

TC has two Super Bowls. That's quite an accomplishment. It will never get better for him again, I hate to say. It never does. And the past four years are proof. It will get worse and worse if he sticks around. Tom Landry and others fell into the same trap. It's absolutely time to move on. How it is handled is another issue. Maybe the next coach will be bad, maybe not. But a serious change has to be made otherwise it will be status quo or worse.

Same thing happened with Torre and the Yankees.  When it's time it's time.

I'm not sure how to vote on this one. In my heart I think it's time for Coughlin to step down. He's been with the Giants for over a decade and gave them 2 Super Bowl titles. His teams more over than not, have been mediocre to poor. This year I think the Giants are better than their record. They've been in pretty much every game except one and have just had trouble finishing games. TC has apparently lost two of his top qualities this year - controlling the clock and coach's challenges. He used to be really good at both of those but this year he's obviously slipping. This year despite the close games, he hasn't had much of a running game or defense so part of me thinks that if the Giants should fix those, things would be okay. I'm wondering if the bigger problem is Reese and the scouting department as there's a lot of players on the team who wouldn't be on other teams because they're not very good. We all know several key areas have been ignored for a long time in the draft and free agency. That has hurt the Giants in the long run. So, again, I just don't know. I like Coughlin and I like the attitude he brought when he first came to the Giants. I'm thankful for the 2 SB championships and I know the problems on this team are not entirely his fault, especially this year. He hasn't had a lot lot to work with. I'm not so sure there's an easy fix with this team.

To no ones surprise, I chose the last one. If he had a middle of the pack roster, and middle of the pack time missed due to injuries instead of near DEAD LAST in BOTH categories, I believe he would be 10-4 instead of 6-8.

I want a Front Office/scouting staff housecleaning. There is nothing wrong with this coaching staff IMO.

I don't think Coughlin is the problem. While I'm not in love with the crowd that thinks Coughlin should coach until he wants to retire crowd, I still think him and the coaching staff are doing okay with the roster give to them.

It basically boils down to who replaces him? I think the Giants are a year late to the replacement carousel. Will probably need to chase a coordinator.

after the second super bowl I promised I would never bad mouth him again.  that was until sunday. I still cant believe he didn't sit him for a  series and get in his face. He was hurting the team.  if he would have maybe he would have him this week. GO GIANTS

Quote from: Mikey Ravioli on December 22, 2015, 10:08:22 AM
I think TC has earned the right to leave on his own terms rather than be ridden out of town on a rail.
That being said - I wouldn't mind if he decided to retire after this season.

Not because I don't think he's a good coach or he is losing it. But because no coach can turn chicken sh*t into chicken salad. No coach has done more with less but keeping him on without the talent is cruel and unusual punishment for a man who deserves better.

TC will never be fired but he might be asked politely to retire.

After last years statement from Mara about accountability and its playoffs or bust after the last couple of horrible years if he doesn't change both the coach and GM he will have lost a lot of credibility in my eyes and I suspect most giant fans. This team is a disaster with a severe lack of personal and a coach that has lost his fastball blowing games earlier with his clock management and personnel decisions and yesterday watching OBJ implode and seemingly not understanding what was going on if his postgame comments are to be believed. I don't. I think he simply didn't want a confrontation with his star player and when that happens its time for you to go as the inmates are running the asylum.

TC has done some great things for this Franchise, like two Lombardi trophies. But that was then, and this is now. his Staff continues mismanagement of injuries, TC's horrendous clock management (amongst other gaffes), four RB vaudeville act, & the latest indication of loss of control with the recent Beckham saga.
I believe that many players have tuned him out, as they c TC as a lame duck. they all say that company line when interviewed, but I don't buy it. This Father (Grandfather) figure that is bestowed upon TC just doesn't fly.
I've seen one too many "deer in the headlights" looks from TC on the sidelines this season.

So far this looks pretty even between stay or go.

Quote from: Vette on December 23, 2015, 12:02:49 AM
So far this looks pretty even between stay or go.

There will always be those that can not remove past accomplishments from current performance, loyalty from unbiased review, fear of the unknown from the known, etc....

I would be shocked if a group this size wasn't almost evenly split.

TC has had his run and we all appreciate the two SB wins....I will try to be brief.....

His coaching style does not fit todays NFL. The latest collective bargaining agreement really put a crimp on his coaching style and preparation methods for the football season. And , myself being a retired manger of young people , I know it is not easy to relate and motivate the young people (21-30 year olds) in any work environment especially some of the spoiled athletes in todays NFL.
This will be the fourth season in a row that the team has not made the playoffs and really does not seem to be getting any better. Same old excuses from the the team, too many injuries  etc. but the bottom line is poor play with no positive results at the end of the year.
Reece , Coughlin, Fewell, Spags, Macadoo, Gilbride  whomever the names are things are not changing. Is Coughlin a bad coach , no. Are all these problems over the past few years his fault, no. Is there a better coach out there? Maybe ,maybe not ....but I really think it is time for the Giants to find out for themselves if there is someone that can change things up. Can things turnaround quickly , absolutely in the NFL today it is possible.
But I am afraid , that if changes are not made this off season , then why should we expect anything different than what has happened from the past 4 years , next year ?
In my opinion, changes need to be made after the season is over, and I hope it is done with class and dignity for all effected , especially, in regards to Tom Coughlin.

Quote from: Woody on December 23, 2015, 10:03:55 AM
TC has had his run and we all appreciate the two SB wins....I will try to be brief.....

His coaching style does not fit todays NFL. The latest collective bargaining agreement really put a crimp on his coaching style and preparation methods for the football season. And , myself being a retired manger of young people , I know it is not easy to relate and motivate the young people (21-30 year olds) in any work environment especially some of the spoiled athletes in todays NFL.
This will be the fourth season in a row that the team has not made the playoffs and really does not seem to be getting any better. Same old excuses from the the team, too many injuries  etc. but the bottom line is poor play with no positive results at the end of the year.
Reece , Coughlin, Fewell, Spags, Macadoo, Gilbride  whomever the names are things are not changing. Is Coughlin a bad coach , no. Are all these problems over the past few years his fault, no. Is there a better coach out there? Maybe ,maybe not ....but I really think it is time for the Giants to find out for themselves if there is someone that can change things up. Can things turnaround quickly , absolutely in the NFL today it is possible.
But I am afraid , that if changes are not made this off season , then why should we expect anything different than what has happened from the past 4 years , next year ?
In my opinion, changes need to be made after the season is over, and I hope it is done with class and dignity for all effected , especially, in regards to Tom Coughlin.

Exactly, I couldn't agree with you more. It is too bad things have come to this as it needs to handled swiftly and with class once the season is over.

someone just said on here that TC had no running game, well I think part of the problem with that is whoever it is who decided on a run game by committee, that concept didn't work and we stayed with it too long before we let Jennings have the touches he needed to get going.

One other angle that has not been discussed- how does Mara sell to the fan base another  year of a coach who has not made the Playoffs for four years.


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Mlllpppl

Quote from: todge on December 25, 2015, 09:57:41 PM
One other angle that has not been discussed- how does Mara sell to the fan base another  year of a coach who has not made the Playoffs for four years.


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Mlllpppl

thats a good point, after all Mara is a businessman selling a product......

I couldn't pick any of them.  For me while I don't blame Tom Coughlin for what has happened the last three seasons I believe it's time to move in a different direction.  The Giants need to rebuild before Eli has nothing left.

Quote from: babywhales on December 23, 2015, 09:11:23 AM
There will always be those that can not remove past accomplishments from current performance, loyalty from unbiased review, fear of the unknown from the known, etc....

Same could be said for the Jerry Reese defenders.

Quote from: todge on December 25, 2015, 09:57:41 PM
One other angle that has not been discussed- how does Mara sell to the fan base another  year of a coach who has not made the Playoffs for four years.


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Selling the fan base now with the new stadium is much different than it was under his old man.  There's a lot more to lose and gain financially.  Which is why I wouldn't rule out the Giants uncharacteristicly firing the GM and HC.

I voted for the "needs a better supporting cast for the defense" category and then realized that the word needs should be replaced with the word needed.  We would not have been having this conversation if there were enough quality players on the defensive side of the equation and because of the injuries, who the hell can you blame?

I agree with Jimv. Who are we going to get that will be better?  So on this topic, the responsibility for finding someone better lies solely on either the head of JR but if he is asked to go, then it lies with Mara and Teich. 
 
I agree with all the guys who think he's done, put a fork in him.  He's got a win-loss history that is not enviable and the two super bowl win meme is tiresome.

T200 has a point.

LennG is the gambler, the guy willing to take a shot at the up and coming coaching stars.

I think Babywhales has a compelling point of view.

I don't agree with anyone who thinks he is a HOF candidate.

There is no question in my mind that he was the primary cause of the first game loss against Dallas and the secondary cause of the last game when he lost track of what was happening with Beckham and that is hard to comprehend.

Woody makes the most compelling explanation.

Todge is about dollars and Rambo, like me is ambivalent.

One thing I hate is fans piling on Coughlin and that has been the sentiment for some for a long while.  I hate the unfocused enmity. 

After Washington loses the next two games and the Giants win the next two games and we make it in to the playoffs, this post will be laughable memorabilia.

"After Washington loses the next two games and the Giants win the next two games and we make it in to the playoffs, this post will be laughable memorabilia."


I LOVE that part of your post, Dennis. :ok:  Let's hope it happens. :yes:

You can change your vote now if you decided differently.

He messed up the clock situation too many times for my liking, but having said that the rest of the job he's pretty darn good at.  So unless you know of somebody better lying around that wants the job we should stick with Coughlin.  Good head coaches are few and far between in this league.  Ask the Eagles how getting rid of a good coach with clock management deficiencies went for them.

with the new stadium on the horizon I think Mara knows he has to keep the fans happy or the seats might not be filled

What new stadium?? What did I miss??

Didn't you hear, the Giants are moving to

One can strong case for dismissing both Reese and Coughlin (and members of their staff) or for retaining one of them.  Much hinges on whether or not ownership can confidently assign blame for the state of the roster on specific members of the scouting staff rather than on Reese himself.  For example, is there a record of missed picks that falls squarely on a scout's poor recommendations?  How much confidence has Ross inspired?

However, ownership will make all of these decisions in context; similarly, it's best for fans to consider these choices holistically rather than discretely.  Moreover, we can expect ownership to have completed an initial survey of the available talent to target before dismissing personnel.  Mara and Tisch will presumably have a better read than most of us do from reading a few speculative articles on the subject, and they will be prepared to resist "change for change's sake."  Mara, an emotional man, is on record stating that he prefers to make such changes absent the emotional frustration he experiences immediately following a disappointing season.  That said, such changes are often made quickly to get a jump on the talent competition. 

The good news is that the Giants are an enviable organization with stable owership, large-market appeal, and a winning tradition.  GM and HC candidates are likely to consider the Giants a top choice among those clubs with vacancies. 

I predict changes will happen because this playoff drought is too long for a club with a franchise QB.  Absent better/inside information, I'd say Coughlin retires and Reese is retained to manage a stable transition to a new coaching staff. 

He never was a great coach.    He ran a clean program and was a decent coach.   He was competition e and the Superbowls could have gone either way.

I think he has no hold over the coordinators or Eli.   He lets them basically run wild.   When its the fourth quarter and you are protecting a lead, you cannot allow the coordinator and kb to be gunslingers throwing into double coverage to get a first down.     Run the ball.    Eat clock.   Yell at your coordinator and fire him if he goes empty backfield on first and goal at the 5 yard line.    N B A coaches pull centers when they let the point guard go in and not contest a layup.    Why not bench Eli if he thinks has Brett Favre throwing the ball in the Buffalo game when all he had to do was throw it away?   Take a knee.   But don't throw an interception and possibly give the game to your opponent.   And then say it was a wild game.

66 % support for Coughlin at this point.

I honestly believe that Coughlin will retire.
If not this season, then certainly next.

He won't need to be told.

And I am fine with him calling his own number.

pagan43

I agree that Coughlin may decide to take the embarrassing problem of having the Mara's fire him by retiring, hell he's going to be 70...

Tom Coughlin is my all-time favorite head coach.  He's also the easiest man in the world to get rid of.  You just ask him to leave.  If he's the Giants' head coach next season, it will be because no one asked him to leave.

Quote from: Bob In PA on December 30, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Tom Coughlin is my all-time favorite head coach.  He's also the easiest man in the world to get rid of.  You just ask him to leave.  If he's the Giants' head coach next season, it will be because no one asked him to leave.

I agree with all of this. Also my favorite, and yes the man respects authority, possibly to a fault.

61% support