Big Blue Huddle

General Category => Big Blue Huddle => Topic started by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 08:24:34 AM

Title: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 08:24:34 AM
The conventional wisdom for years has been that the Giants would be lost without Eli Manning.   This offseason I had started to wonder if the unquestioned conventional wisdom was true.   After all, the Giants had one of the worst offenses in the league last year and went 11-5 and made the playoffs.  Would their poor offense have been that much worse without Eli Manning?

Mannings 5.8 yards per attempt was terrible.   Granted he didn't have his best receiver OBJ, but he still had solid targets.    I am also mindful that OBJ's talents are catching poorly thrown passes and taking short passes and taking them to the house.  Those sort of talents would help any QB look better, not just Eli Manning.

Now I am mindful that this is only the first game and things very well could turn around.   My point is if they don't, I am thinking that Eli Manning's $20 million dollars a year cap hit may be a needless luxury.  The team may be better served using that money on their offensive line and a running back.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 08:26:15 AM
You're beginning to think this or has this been on your mind since draft day?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 08:32:07 AM
You're beginning to think this or has this been on your mind since draft day?

Dale,

Did you miss last season?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 11, 2017, 08:32:21 AM
This is where the Giants fans take Eli for granted.  The grass always seems greener on the other side.  Just like with Phil Simms it may take a Dave Brown, Danny Kennel and Kent Graham 6 year stretch to fully appreciate Eli.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 08:34:16 AM
Dale,

Did you miss last season?

Asking a question onto a question is poor form. Little hypothetical. Assuming the Giants go with your thinking:

You have to re-sign OBJ to a megadeal, Richburg, and Pugh. How are you going to upgrade?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 08:51:47 AM
Asking a question onto a question is poor form. Little hypothetical. Assuming the Giants go with your thinking:

You have to re-sign OBJ to a megadeal, Richburg, and Pugh. How are you going to upgrade?

The way Pugh and Richburg played, their deals are not going to be on the high end.   Pay some of that money for an upgrade to Jerry and you will have an offense that would be better than what I saw last night.   
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 08:53:28 AM
The way Pugh and Richburg played, their deals are not going to be on the high end.   Pay some of that money for an upgrade to Jerry and you will have an offense that would be better than what I saw last night.

Bad news for you, Richburg and Pugh are going to get paid.

And if you let them walk, you are relying on Reese to fix the OL - how has that gone since 2008?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 09:07:14 AM
Bad news for you, Richburg and Pugh are going to get paid.

And if you let them walk, you are relying on Reese to fix the OL - how has that gone since 2008?

So you are saying we should keep Eli and let OBJ walk (based on your insistence of keeping Pugh and Richburg).   We saw last night how that works, they can't score more than 3 points against an average (at best) defense.  I think you just proved my point Dale
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:09:50 AM
So you are saying we should keep Eli and let OBJ walk (based on your insistence of keeping Pugh and Richburg).   We saw last night how that works, they can't score more than 3 points against an average (at best defense).  I think you just proved my point Dale

Of course, I didnt say that but your assuming skills need some tweaking.

The problem is drafting, plain and simple. The reason I brought up OBJ's contract is that giving him a megadeal when the team has had a losing record with him - how does it make us better? Yes, I understand Eli takes up a huge cap room - but all franchise QBs do. He is the 10th highest paid player this year. It is much harder to find a QB than a WR.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 09:11:52 AM
Of course, I didnt say that but your assuming skills need some tweaking.

The problem is drafting, plain and simple. The reason I brought up OBJ's contract is that giving him a megadeal when the team has had a losing record with him - how does it make us better? Yes, I understand Eli takes up a huge cap room - but all franchise QBs do. He is the 10th highest paid player this year. It is much harder to find a QB than a WR.

Dale,

Did you say a couple of days ago you didn't want the team to re-sign OBJ?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 11, 2017, 09:23:53 AM
So you are saying we should keep Eli and let OBJ walk (based on your insistence of keeping Pugh and Richburg).   We saw last night how that works, they can't score more than 3 points against an average (at best) defense.  I think you just proved my point Dale

A QB is more important to an offense than a WR.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 09:24:48 AM
A QB is more important to an offense than a WR.

What about the 3 points scored last night?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 11, 2017, 09:29:21 AM
What about the 3 points scored last night?

If an O Line can't block none of it matters.   
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 09:31:42 AM
If an O Line can't block none of it matters.

Isn't that my point?  Regardless of the cause, Eli is not getting it done.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:35:40 AM
Dale,

Did you say a couple of days ago you didn't want the team to re-sign OBJ?

I dont remember what I said, but I do remember saying it shouldnt be a slam dunk he gets a mega deal. And I explained my position why.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:36:09 AM
Isn't that my point?  Regardless of the cause, Eli is not getting it done.

Can you name a QB who gets it done without a running game or a good OL?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 11, 2017, 09:39:06 AM
Isn't that my point?  Regardless of the cause, Eli is not getting it done.

I'm taking your point being that Beckham is more important than Eli.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:41:09 AM
What about the 3 points scored last night?

We didnt score 20 points in the last 7 games of the year with OBJ. So even with him last night, we most likely still lose.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: JimboWHO on September 11, 2017, 09:43:05 AM
This is where the Giants fans take Eli for granted.  The grass always seems greener on the other side.  Just like with Phil Simms it may take a Dave Brown, Danny Kennel and Kent Graham 6 year stretch to fully appreciate Eli.

Speaking of Simms, there was a guy that was impervious to pressure from the opposing D line.  He faced down the Eagles, Bears, Redskins and 49er D lines and never flinched a bit.  I can still see the CBS Sports "Simms Under Pressure" graphic.

Knowing full well that is easier said than done and that he does not have adequate protection on too many plays, I'm getting tired of Eli feeling pressure that is not there.  Brandon Marshall is still running if Eli doesn't miss that pass to the left flat.  Momentum creating plays are left out there.  This is now seven games that the offense hasn't scored 20 points.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: WheresDayne on September 11, 2017, 09:43:13 AM
I really never could understand the love people give Eli.  Sure, we won a couple Superbowls with him, but I say despite him. (neither MVP should be his)

He has been an average QB and has been quite below average for a while now.  He makes it hard to watch a game because of how upset me makes me feel, it's just not worth it.  Don't even get me started on the $20 Mil salary.\

Sorry, I'm sure this will rub some the wrong way but I have been holding in my angst for Eli for years now.  I just don't get what people see in him  ~X(
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:44:44 AM
I really never could understand the love people give Eli.  Sure, we won a couple Superbowls with him, but I say despite him. (neither MVP should be his)

He has been an average QB and has been quite below average for a while now.  He makes it hard to watch a game because of how upset me makes me feel, it's just not worth it.  Don't even get me started on the $20 Mil salary.\

Sorry, I'm sure this will rub some the wrong way but I have been holding in my angst for Eli for years now.  I just don't get what people see in him  ~X(

The old Dale would rip this post to shreds, but I doubt the poster would listen to what I would have to say anyways.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 11, 2017, 09:45:31 AM
I really never could understand the love people give Eli.  Sure, we won a couple Superbowls with him, but I say despite him. (neither MVP should be his)

He has been an average QB and has been quite below average for a while now.  He makes it hard to watch a game because of how upset me makes me feel, it's just not worth it.  Don't even get me started on the $20 Mil salary.\

Sorry, I'm sure this will rub some the wrong way but I have been holding in my angst for Eli for years now.  I just don't get what people see in him  ~X(

It's because most of us remember the post Phil Simms era the Giants had and are not taking Eli for granted.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: WheresDayne on September 11, 2017, 09:48:24 AM
Rip away at it, that's why it was posted.  Maybe someone will point something out that will make me view Eli differently...as of now I never saw the greatness in him that some others saw.  Decent QB with some good talent around and a few fortunate hops here and there - that's my description of him.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:53:31 AM
Rip away at it, that's why it was posted.  Maybe someone will point something out that will make me view Eli differently...as of now I never saw the greatness in him that some others saw.  Decent QB with some good talent around and a few fortunate hops here and there - that's my description of him.

Ill list a few things that may help.

1. The Giants have not averaged 4 YPIC since 2012 - the only team in the NFL to accomplish this. Isnt a running game a QBs best friend?
2. Our tackles have given up the most pressures/sacks in the last two years according to PFF.
3. We have had 81 drops the last 3 years - which would be top 5 in the league.
4. Our defense has ever been top 10 in the Eli era I believe 3-4 times (I gotta relook this one up.)
5. Outside of last year - we have been one of the top 3 injured NFL teams for the last 10 years.
6. We never had a WR play with eli in their prime for more than 3 years (OBJ should break that this year. - eben though he has missed games).
7. Only 2 OL have been selected to a pro bowl - O'hara 1x, Snee 4x (I believe Diehl was a replacement one year.)
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 09:55:16 AM
Ill list a few things that may help.

1. The Giants have not averaged 4 YPIC since 2012 - the only team in the NFL to accomplish this. Isnt a running game a QBs best friend?
2. Our tackles have given up the most pressures/sacks in the last two years according to PFF.
3. We have had 81 drops the last 3 years - which would be top 5 in the league.
4. Our defense has ever been top 10 in the Eli era I believe 3-4 times (I gotta relook this one up.)
5. Outside of last year - we have been one of the top 3 injured NFL teams for the last 10 years.
6. We never had a WR play with eli in their prime for more than 3 years (OBJ should break that this year. - eben though he has missed games).
7. Only 2 OL have been selected to a pro bowl - O'hara 1x, Snee 4x (I believe Diehl was a replacement one year.)

None of those points really dispute the point of this thread.   Regardless of the cause, it's looking like we may have overvalued Eli's importance to the team
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 09:56:17 AM
Eli has been trending in the wrong direction since the second SB win. Between 2007-2008 was probably the higlight of his career. His renaissance is tied to the play of OBJ more than anything else. At this point, he lacks the mobility to extend plays and is entirely too dependent on his oline replicating what he had in 07/08.

I'm sure someone knows the stats of Eli with OBJ v without OBJ since he was drafted.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: T200 on September 11, 2017, 09:56:36 AM
Rip away at it, that's why it was posted.  Maybe someone will point something out that will make me view Eli differently...as of now I never saw the greatness in him that some others saw.  Decent QB with some good talent around and a few fortunate hops here and there - that's my description of him.
No need to rip away at it. It's your opinion and view based on what you've seen. You're entitled to it and there's no room for anyone to "rip" it or try and convince you otherwise. You certainly aren't alone in that view and there's nothing wrong with it.

Eli isn't the perennial all-pro but he has made a reputation of being cool, calm and collected and being clutch. That was actually him. However, we have seen less and less of the 2011 NFC Conference Championship game versus San Fran Eli. I wish he could turn back the clock and get one more ring before he hangs them up. I don't have a lot of confidence in this offense, with or without OBJ. Yes, the achilles heel is the offensive line but it doesn't mean we can't win with it.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:58:37 AM
None of those points really dispute the point of this thread.   Regardless of the cause, it's looking like we may have overvalued Eli's importance to the team

The guy asked me why it seems like Eli isnt that good or has struggled. I gave him some things that may change his mind.

Listen, we all know you want Webb to start. I am looking forward to these daily threads.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:05:11 AM
Eli has been trending in the wrong direction since the second SB win. Between 2007-2008 was probably the higlight of his career. His renaissance is tied to the play of OBJ more than anything else. At this point, he lacks the mobility to extend plays and is entirely too dependent on his oline replicating what he had in 07/08.

I'm sure someone knows the stats of Eli with OBJ v without OBJ since he was drafted.

Eli was very good in 2014-2015.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 10:12:24 AM
Eli has been trending in the wrong direction since the second SB win. Between 2007-2008 was probably the higlight of his career. His renaissance is tied to the play of OBJ more than anything else. At this point, he lacks the mobility to extend plays and is entirely too dependent on his oline replicating what he had in 07/08.

I'm sure someone knows the stats of Eli with OBJ v without OBJ since he was drafted.

Generally Eli's QB rating is at least 20 points higher when he is targeting OBJ
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 10:14:39 AM
Eli was very good in 2014-2015.

Two reasons for 2014/2015:

1. Emergence of OBJ.
2. Several "cream puff" games on the schedule (NFC/AFC South plus some of the AFC E juggernauts). Of course, you can only play who's on the schedule yet that doesn't prevent a reasonable person from pointing out the level of competition.

In regards to this second point: there was a significant difference in leave of play the year the Giants feasted on the AFC S (for stats) v what they did against the NFC West. Well, that and it yielded the Giants pilfering the Jags roster for JT Thomas...
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:17:37 AM
Two reasons for 2014/2015:

1. Emergence of OBJ.
2. Several "cream puff" games on the schedule (NFC/AFC South plus some of the AFC E juggernauts). Of course, you can only play who's on the schedule yet that doesn't prevent a reasonable person from pointing out the level of competition.

In regards to this second point: there was a significant difference in leave of play the year the Giants feasted on the AFC S (for stats) v what they did against the NFC West. Well, that and it yielded the Giants pilfering the Jags roster for JT Thomas...

At some point, every QB faces those teams. I really dont see how that is factor. Playing well is playing well.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Ed Vette on September 11, 2017, 10:28:32 AM
Based on last night's performance, Eli was rusty just as Tom Brady was and I attribute that to preseason preparation. The entire offense was not in sync. I've said it before but the loss of Pat Flaherty was huge for this team. Solaris hasn't been getting it done. Furthermore I don't see much more than one drive as being creative and out of the box. I didn't notice Brandon Marshall ever leaving that X position or any attempt to create mismatches. Sullivan needs to go and they need a true play caller. Even if OBJ dressed they would have lost. One other thing. For the first time, it appeared that me that Eli lost some juice off his fastball. Maybe he hasn't but it's something I'm going to look at during the season.

So Rich, to your point... it's not an outrageous statement but there are other issues in my opinion at play here and they need to be addressed ASAP and before Monday night.

I want to see Fluker and or Brett Jones replacing John Jerry. Jerry has been exposed to being Stunt Challenged and it's going to happen every game.

Bobby Hart should shut his mouth and focus on his play.

Move Pugh to LT and end the Flowers experiment tomorrow. I want to see Jones and Fluker up next.

Darkwa needs more snaps and Gallman needs to dress next week.

Answers such as "we are taking a hard look at this" are unacceptable and if there is more than just the Offensive Line to blame as MAC has said repeatedly then the team is UNPREPARED!!!
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2017, 10:37:34 AM
We didnt score 20 points in the last 7 games of the year with OBJ. So even with him last night, we most likely still lose.

You cannot draw that conclusion because this isnt last year's team. Who knows what kind of night Marshall has if Odell plays? Also, who knows what the final score would be? If the Giants offense was able to hold onto the ball another 5 minutes, maybe Dallas only scores 13. It's impossible to say because, obviously, it did not happen. You can't take last year's scoring average and say that would have been Odell's impact - or lack thereof - last night. The facts are the offense looked horrible. It is reasonable to assume it will look better with Odell than without. Whether it will look better enough to win against a quality opponent remains to be answered.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:39:12 AM
Another thing Id like to point out from around the league.

Seattle's OL is probably worse than ours. Russell Wilson is considered a top 5ish QB in the league. He had 34 yards at half, a big turnover that led to 7 points, and his team scored 9 points total. He is elusive and can move to bide more time.

It didnt help him 1 iota. If your OL cant get open and you dont have a deep threat (which Seattle doesnt have), your QB is going to look very, very bad.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 10:40:00 AM
At some point, every QB faces those teams. I really dont see how that is factor. Playing well is playing well.

I could honestly care less what the stats are for other QBs. Eli just hasn't been passing the eyeball test for a few years now unless he's playing against inferior competition.

At $20 mil/yr, he needs to look competent in every game. While the offensive line is far from perfect, when he's had time to throw? He's been very erratic.

Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:40:27 AM
You cannot draw that conclusion because this isnt last year's team. Who knows what kind of night Marshall has if Odell plays? Also, who knows what the final score would be? If the Giants offense was able to hold onto the ball another 5 minutes, maybe Dallas only scores 13. It's impossible to say because, obviously, it did not happen. You can't take last year's scoring average and say that would have been Odell's impact - or lack thereof - last night. The facts are the offense looked horrible. It is reasonable to assume it will look better with Odell than without. Whether it will look better enough to win against a quality opponent remains to be answered.

I can agree to that. I just think in general that we can agree that the offense since Mcadoo became head coach is terrible, and IMO - a lot has to do with the OL, which is the number 1 problem with this team.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 10:41:35 AM
Another thing Id like to point out from around the league.

Seattle's OL is probably worse than ours. Russell Wilson is considered a top 5ish QB in the league. He had 34 yards at half, a big turnover that led to 7 points, and his team scored 9 points total. He is elusive and can move to bide more time.

It didnt help him 1 iota. If your OL cant get open and you dont have a deep threat (which Seattle doesnt have), your QB is going to look very, very bad.

Wilson doesn't have the weapons that Eli does.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:42:28 AM


At $20 mil/yr, he needs to look competent in every game. While the offensive line is far from perfect, when he's had time to throw? He's been very erratic.

To expect your QB to be compotent every game is just not a reasonable expectations, especially with a poor OLine and your best player out. There are a lot of 20 million dollar a year QBs who have multiple bad games.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:43:33 AM
Wilson doesn't have the weapons that Eli does.

He has better RBs, a pro bowl WR and pro bowl TE. Fans sometimes overrate how good their team is sometime. He has a disastrous OL though.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Ed Vette on September 11, 2017, 10:44:09 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170911/ff5cae233133cdcd55ca0d4fdab516a1.jpg)

NOW do you miss me???
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 10:46:47 AM
To expect your QB to be compotent every game is just not a reasonable expectations, especially with a poor OLine and your best player out. There are a lot of 20 million dollar a year QBs who have multiple bad games.

Competent =/= good. Big difference.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 10:47:51 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170911/ff5cae233133cdcd55ca0d4fdab516a1.jpg)

NOW do you miss me???

Eli would die in that system with this oline.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 10:50:11 AM
He has better RBs, a pro bowl WR and pro bowl TE. Fans sometimes overrate how good their team is sometime. He has a disastrous OL though.

Their RB core can't stay healthy and they're currently lead by a guy who couldn't control his weight in GB.

WR: the Seattle WR group is inferior to N.Y.

TE: Jimmy Graham has been a shell of himself since he blew out his knee. Didn't he have the same injury as Cruz?


Also, I'm one of the last guys on this board you should be calling a homer .  :P
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 10:52:19 AM
Baldwin is a very good WR, the rest are suspect which I can agree with.
Graham had a very good last year, wasnt used much. He is still better than what we have.

Both teams RBs are poor, but at least Seattles are bit proven though.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Messiah717 on September 11, 2017, 10:56:12 AM
Eli is approaching 37 years old and was never a top tier QB.  Diminishing skills and mobility that has gone from poor to nonexistent shouldn't be a shock to anyone.  He now seemingly needs perfect pockets for several seconds to be able to function effectively.  The oline play does need to improve but Manning has been regressing for several years now. 
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 10:58:04 AM
Eli is approaching 37 years old and was never a top tier QB.  Diminishing skills and mobility that has gone from poor to nonexistent shouldn't be a shock to anyone.  He now seemingly needs perfect pockets for several seconds to be able to function effectively.  The oline play does need to improve but Manning has been regressing for several years now.

Eli's lack of mobility puts more stress on an offensive line's pass blocking.   The rushers can pin their ears back and go all out rush with no care for rushing lanes or contain responsibility.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2017, 10:58:11 AM
I can agree to that. I just think in general that we can agree that the offense since Mcadoo became head coach is terrible, and IMO - a lot has to do with the OL, which is the number 1 problem with this team.

I agree to a point. There is obviously an inexplicable disconnect between play calling and O line protection. But, each section of the offense seems to have a different idea about how each play is supposed to be run. I felt like every player on offense was waiting for another guy to step up and make a big play, and it didn't cross any of their minds that maybe they, themselves, should step up and be that guy. Having Odell seems to have spoiled them. "Oh, don't worry! Eli will throw a slant to Odell and he'll run it in" kind of BS. It's not just an offense that is out of sync, but one that is almost bizarrely so. Therefore, I cannot put the burden exclusively on the O line shoulders. To me, it's systemic. 
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 11, 2017, 11:06:05 AM
Eli would die in that system with this oline.

If Gilbride is still there, so is Flaherty and Pope (IMO). Flowers doesn't get to run Flaherty out of town and Slickback Mac doesn't get to run Pope out of town. If they're still here, we get better results out of the OL/TE talent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 11:07:32 AM
For those saying Eli's lack of mobility (by the way, he kept many plays alive last night after being first hit or hurried).... how do you explain being the worst rushing offense since 2013. We are the only team in the NFL who hasnt averaged 4 YPC since 2013. If we need Eli or any Qb to be a threat running the ball, we will never be successful.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2017, 11:11:31 AM
For those saying Eli's lack of mobility (by the way, he kept many plays alive last night after being first hit or hurried).... how do you explain being the worst rushing offense since 2013. We are the only team in the NFL who hasnt averaged 4 YPC since 2013. If we need Eli or any Qb to be a threat running the ball, we will never be successful.

I think the offensive problems run much deeper than Eli's mobility, but a mobile QB does help the running game. Dallas drove that point home all last night.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 11, 2017, 11:13:39 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170911/ff5cae233133cdcd55ca0d4fdab516a1.jpg)

NOW do you miss me???

It's exactly why I don't buy the play calling criticism.  Gilbride was ripped on a regular basis.  Now the Giants play a different offense and the criticism is the same when the offense doesn't perform.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 11:15:54 AM
I think the offensive problems run much deeper than Eli's mobility, but a mobile QB does help the running game. Dallas drove that point home all last night.

Didnt help Seattle yesterday, did it? Mobile QBs are more accessible to hits and missing games. You know what helped Dallas running game last night - the best OL in the league. You know what doesnt help the NYG and Seattles run games. Poorous OL.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 11:16:50 AM
If Gilbride is still there, so is Flaherty and Pope (IMO). Flowers doesn't get to run Flaherty out of town and Slickback Mac doesn't get to run Pope out of town. If they're still here, we get better results out of the OL/TE talent.


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Possibly. The fact that Flowers drove Flaherty out of town is embarrassing.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 11:17:37 AM
Didnt help Seattle yesterday, did it? Mobile QBs are more accessible to hits and missing games. You know what helped Dallas running game last night - the best OL in the league. You know what doesnt help the NYG and Seattles run games. Poorous OL.

Seattle doesn't travel well.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 11, 2017, 11:17:49 AM
Possibly. The fact that Flowers drove Flaherty out of town is embarrassing.

Agreed.


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2017, 11:30:54 AM
Didnt help Seattle yesterday, did it? Mobile QBs are more accessible to hits and missing games. You know what helped Dallas running game last night - the best OL in the league. You know what doesnt help the NYG and Seattles run games. Poorous OL.

To be honest, I didn't see one second of the Seattle game. That's not to avoid the debate, it's just laying my cards on the table, and explaining why I cannot comment on that.
As for whether mobile QBs miss more games, I think that's difficult to say. How do you define "mobile"? If we agree on a definition, how do we verify that each time a QB misses a game, or two, it was because he was "mobile"? What if our mobile QB gets hurt standing in the pocket? Playing a game of hoops in the offseason? It's an interesting theory, but I think it would be a nightmare to try to prove one way or the other. Too many variables.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 11:34:50 AM
To be honest, I didn't see one second of the Seattle game. That's not to avoid the debate, it's just laying my cards on the table, and explaining why I cannot comment on that.
As for whether mobile QBs miss more games, I think that's difficult to say. How do you define "mobile"? If we agree on a definition, how do we verify that each time a QB misses a game, or two, it was because he was "mobile"? What if our mobile QB gets hurt standing in the pocket? Playing a game of hoops in the offseason? It's an interesting theory, but I think it would be a nightmare to try to prove one way or the other. Too many variables.

See I think when people see mobile QBs are the way to go, they picture Aaron Rodgers. There are many other mobile Qbs in the league. Mariotta, Tannehill, Stafford, Dalton, Cam, Luck, Smith, etc....

Would the Giants be set with a Qb as mobile and as good as Rodgers. Of course, I would even want that. But other mobile QBs struggle when they are forced to be mobile. Wilson has struggled since last year because his run game went to crap and his OLine is worse. And a lot of these guys are missing game because of the hits that they take.

Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 11:37:33 AM
See I think when people see mobile QBs are the way to go, they picture Aaron Rodgers. There are many other mobile Qbs in the league. Mariotta, Tannehill, Stafford, Dalton, Cam, Luck, Smith, etc....

Would the Giants be set with a Qb as mobile and as good as Rodgers. Of course, I would even want that. But other mobile QBs struggle when they are forced to be mobile. Wilson has struggled since last year because his run game went to crap and his OLine is worse. And a lot of these guys are missing game because of the hits that they take.

Even Dak put a few daggers in the Giants defense with his mobility. 
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 11, 2017, 11:39:38 AM
The conventional wisdom for years has been that the Giants would be lost without Eli Manning.   This offseason I had started to wonder if the unquestioned conventional wisdom was true.   After all, the Giants had one of the worst offenses in the league last year and went 11-5 and made the playoffs.  Would their poor offense have been that much worse without Eli Manning?

Mannings 5.8 yards per attempt was terrible.   Granted he didn't have his best receiver OBJ, but he still had solid targets.    I am also mindful that OBJ's talents are catching poorly thrown passes and taking short passes and taking them to the house.  Those sort of talents would help any QB look better, not just Eli Manning.

Now I am mindful that this is only the first game and things very well could turn around.   My point is if they don't, I am thinking that Eli Manning's $20 million dollars a year cap hit may be a needless luxury.  The team may be better served using that money on their offensive line and a running back.
I'm as disappointed as anybody else with the way the team performed last night against the Cowboys and there seems to be a lot of blame to go around but as you may have noticed from my posts I have never been a fan of Eli since day one and now I see him as an anchor around the neck of this team because we can lose games just as easily with a far less expensive QB, Eli's contract is strangling this team IMO....
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 11, 2017, 11:42:14 AM
I'm as disappointed as anybody else with the way the team performed last night against the Cowboys and there seems to be a lot of blame to go around but as you may have noticed from my posts I have never been a fan of Eli since day one and now I see him as an anchor around the neck of this team because we can lose games just as easily with a far less expensive QB, Eli's contract is strangling this team IMO....

Actually the personnel department and JR are strangling this team. They've had 4 years to rebuild this OL and running game. Last night at least in part shows you the result of that "effort".


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: JimboWHO on September 11, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
It's exactly why I don't buy the play calling criticism.  Gilbride was ripped on a regular basis.  Now the Giants play a different offense and the criticism is the same when the offense doesn't perform.

Agreed.  The coaches don't play and more than that, the players aren't coached to perform the way they did last night.

And coaching can't overcome physical limitations. 
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 11, 2017, 11:48:34 AM
Actually the personnel department and JR are strangling this team. They've had 4 years to rebuild this OL and running game. Last night at least in part shows you the result of that "effort".


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Eli is paid around 20 or 25 million bucks a year and is definitely not performing anywhere near that level, IMO he is greatly over paid for his on field performance....
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 11, 2017, 11:54:44 AM
Eli is paid around 20 or 25 million bucks a year and is definitely not performing anywhere near that level, IMO he is greatly over paid for his on field performance....

The guy has been asked to completely revamp his game (including his footwork, and release) over the past three years after playing one way and winning 2 Super Bowls in the previous nine.

During that time, he's had to endure one of the worst OLs the lowest YPC running game in the league, and more than his fair share of drops as he continually has been asked to "develop" receivers (OBJ being the exception even with all of his histrionics).

I would pay him that money 10 times out of 10. The difference is, I would understand that investment and put him in a position to win.


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2017, 11:58:43 AM
See I think when people see mobile QBs are the way to go, they picture Aaron Rodgers. There are many other mobile Qbs in the league. Mariotta, Tannehill, Stafford, Dalton, Cam, Luck, Smith, etc....

Would the Giants be set with a Qb as mobile and as good as Rodgers. Of course, I would even want that. But other mobile QBs struggle when they are forced to be mobile. Wilson has struggled since last year because his run game went to crap and his OLine is worse. And a lot of these guys are missing game because of the hits that they take.

Not to argue, but merely to expand on my point of how do you define mobile, I would not categorize Luck and Stafford or even Dalton as mobile QBs. I think even Rodgers is running far less than he used to. Compared to Eli, they all are "mobile", but that's because Eli does not run at all. But I do not think of them as "mobile" QBs in comparison to Prescott, Newton, Mariotta. So, w/o a set way to define what makes one QB mobile vs another, it's difficult to debate the issues surrounding "mobile" QBs. How many yards a season must a QB run to be defined as mobile? Because simply comparing them to Eli means every other QB in the NFL, CFL, and Arena football is a mobile QB. Compared to Eli, Joe Flacco is a RB.  ;)
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 12:01:46 PM
Not to argue, but merely to expand on my point of how do you define mobile, I would not categorize Luck and Stafford or even Dalton as mobile QBs. I think even Rodgers is running far less than he used to. Compared to Eli, they all are "mobile", but that's because Eli does not run at all. But I do not think of them as "mobile" QBs in comparison to Prescott, Newton, Mariotta. So, w/o a set way to define what makes one QB mobile vs another, it's difficult to debate the issues surrounding "mobile" QBs. How many yards a season must a QB run to be defined as mobile? Because simply comparing them to Eli means every other QB in the NFL, CFL, and Arena football is a mobile QB. Compared to Eli, Joe Flacco is a RB.  ;)

I would define a mobile QB as one that requires the pass rushers to change their approach to rushing.  That means they have to honor rushing lanes and worry about contain.  If the rush is hampered by these considerations then the QB should be considered mobile. 
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: JimboWHO on September 11, 2017, 12:02:55 PM
Six weeks ago I believed in an improved offense of line.  That so much of the focus was on it told me conventional wisdom was likely wrong and that the offense of line would be a pleasant surprise. 

By the second or third  preseason game I knew I was wrong and now I fear the season may be in jeopardy.  We all remember what George Young said.

A couple years ago I thought the Mac plan would result in the playoffs in year one has a head coach and a SB run in year two.  That can't happen with this offensive line because our quarterback is as dependent as any in the league on good pass protection.

Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 12:04:02 PM
Eli is paid around 20 or 25 million bucks a year and is definitely not performing anywhere near that level, IMO he is greatly over paid for his on field performance....

Its the going rate for QBs.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 11, 2017, 12:04:42 PM
obviously our O line is not playing at an acceptable level but having a completely immobile QB like Eli makes things a whole lot worse, I think a lot of other QBs would be able to make something happen behind our O line but having Eli back there puts a huge amount of pressure on the Line because the defense nows exactly where Eli is going to be and makes him an easy target, better blocking would surely help but having a QB who simply cannot move is a huge problem for O linemen...
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 12:06:45 PM
I would define a mobile QB as one that requires the pass rushers to change their approach to rushing.  That means they have to honor rushing lanes and worry about contain.  If the rush is hampered by these considerations then the QB should be considered mobile.

One thing to note is you dont need to be mobile, to have pocket awareness and move well within a pocket.
Title: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 11, 2017, 12:11:49 PM
obviously our O line is not playing at an acceptable level but having a completely immobile QB like Eli makes things a whole lot worse, I think a lot of other QBs would be able to make something happen behind our O line but having Eli back there puts a huge amount of pressure on the Line because the defense nows exactly where Eli is going to be and makes him an easy target, better blocking would surely help but having a QB who simply cannot move is a huge problem for O linemen...

Eli was here before this version of the offensive line arrived. Everyone knew what they had (good and bad) with Eli when they made the decision to rebuild this offense and the offensive line.

To that end I would say that having the oline up there puts a huge amount of pressure on Eli. Let's be completely honest here: McAdoo had visions of the Packers offense when he began this rebuild, while McCarthy realized he couldn't continue to get Rodgers (with all his mobility) to take the beatings he'd been taking. Teacher schooled the student on this one as the Packers have a much more competent OL and running game than we do.


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Jintsman74 on September 11, 2017, 12:16:00 PM
Problem is there wasn't much of a pocket last night. If the O-line could play descent and they could run the ball effectively and in turn you would see a better QB and offense. The Giants have made zero progress upfront of the Oline. That unit has not improved over last year. The defense carried them to 11-5 last year but the front offense stayed status quo not upgrading the oline
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: katkavage on September 11, 2017, 12:17:43 PM
Eli is a slightly above average QB at this point in his career. He is mid-level. They can win with him at the helm, but sadly, they cannot win with him with the personnel around him. He needs a tough offensive line and a running game to prosper. They Giants don't have that. They have skilled receivers. Unfortunately Giant management did the right thing by shoring up the defense after 2015; a good defense will keep you competitive. But next to the defense the most important element, besides QB, is the offensive line. It has been neglected or the people put there have not lived up to expectations. The Giants will not be better than a wild card team unless something drastically changes with the offensive line and I don't see that happening until Eli is done.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Cr00zng on September 11, 2017, 12:37:56 PM
Eli is approaching 37 years old and was never a top tier QB.  Diminishing skills and mobility that has gone from poor to nonexistent shouldn't be a shock to anyone.  He now seemingly needs perfect pockets for several seconds to be able to function effectively.  The oline play does need to improve but Manning has been regressing for several years now.

I don't necessarily disagree, but that's the price for an aging QB. Some will age gracefully, while others not so much...

As for Rich's original posting, I tend to agree with him. Can the Giants actually get worse without Eli? I don't really see how, just look at rookie QBs as of late, but that's just hypothetical since that ain't going to take place for couple of years. The chances are that in that case, there will be coaching changes alongside of the QB change....





Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 11, 2017, 12:40:14 PM
One thing to note is you dont need to be mobile, to have pocket awareness and move well within a pocket.

That is a related factor that is also helpful.   I think both factors are important but I believe mobility to be a bit more important (as it hurts the pass rush more).
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Ed Vette on September 11, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Eli would die in that system with this oline.
Flaherty might still be here and maybe other decisions may have been made. The job description of an OC isn't restricted to play caller as I have tried to point out here many times in the past Gilbride days.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 12:52:10 PM
Flaherty might still be here and maybe other decisions may have been made. The job description of an OC isn't restricted to play caller as I have tried to point out here many times in the past Gilbride days.

Oh, I know and I admitted to such in a different post in this thread. However, we'll never know what would've happened if Gilbride was given OBJ.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Bob In PA on September 11, 2017, 12:53:07 PM
Flaherty might still be here and maybe other decisions may have been made. The job description of an OC isn't restricted to play caller as I have tried to point out here many times in the past Gilbride days.

Rich: Sadly, I do notice Eli trying to work more "mobility" into his game, but it's just not him, so he looks awkward, uncomfortable and semi-confused. 

I suppose it will approve with time, but time is the one thing he does not have.

Bob
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 01:00:06 PM
Generally Eli's QB rating is at least 20 points higher when he is targeting OBJ

I'm citing Colin Cowherd for one reason: a chart that popped up on a clip from this morning. A lot of his opinions are "meh" at best so do treat these stats as nothing more than what was pulled together by his team:

Career:

1. Throwing to OBJ: 35-7 TD/INT, 63% completion, 111.4 passer rating.
2. Non-OBJ: 285-209 TD/INT, 59.5% completion, 79.9 passer rating.

Now, this doesn't tell the whole story (and you might be able to pull individual stats for Cruz,Nicks, Burress, etc) but it's food for thought.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Bob In PA on September 11, 2017, 01:42:40 PM
I'm citing Colin Cowherd for one reason: a chart that popped up on a clip from this morning. A lot of his opinions are "meh" at best so do treat these stats as nothing more than what was pulled together by his team:

Career:

1. Throwing to OBJ: 35-7 TD/INT, 63% completion, 111.4 passer rating.
2. Non-OBJ: 285-209 TD/INT, 59.5% completion, 79.9 passer rating.

Now, this doesn't tell the whole story (and you might be able to pull individual stats for Cruz,Nicks, Burress, etc) but it's food for thought.

Mr. Super-Collider (sorry.... I just can't help myself.... hadron is a well-known term in the world of science):  Thanks for posting that.

It doesn't tell us everything, but it tells us some important things, IMO, like the fact that it's crucial for QB's to have WR's, TE's and RB's who know their assignments and do them as perfectly as possible.

However, that some of the discrepancy is due to Beckham's ability to catch balls that are uncatchable for almost any other WR... so it certainly does nothing to exonerate Eli for being off-target as much as he is.

Bob
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: files58 on September 11, 2017, 01:56:54 PM
Possibly. The fact that Flowers drove Flaherty out of town is embarrassing.

I have recollections that before the 2015 draft John Mara said to paraphrase we need a tackle. I just tried to find a statement from Mara to support my recollection but didn't find any. It's then possible(maybe likely) that drafting Flowers was a political as well as needs based pick. It's also very possible that Flaherty went to management and told them Flowers s#cks, and will continue to. You know what happens when one disagrees with the king. Just reference Game of Thrones. Mara was very effusive in his support of Flowers during this past off-season. Just throwing this out there. Anyway Eli is "mobile" in the pocket, but when the pocket is as large as a phone booth(for those who remember what that was) it's difficult to be effective.                                                               
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2017, 02:16:58 PM
I would define a mobile QB as one that requires the pass rushers to change their approach to rushing.  That means they have to honor rushing lanes and worry about contain.  If the rush is hampered by these considerations then the QB should be considered mobile.

I believe that definition is so broad that it can be applied to every QB in the NFL with the exception of Eli and Cutler. Which is fine, if that's how you want to define mobile. Since there is not a set definition, each person has to decide where they think that line is drawn. However, I think that's too broad to allow us to debate a mobile QBs effects on the running game and their overall rate of injury which is what AP and I were discussing in the original post.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 11, 2017, 05:23:19 PM
Mr. Super-Collider (sorry.... I just can't help myself.... hadron is a well-known term in the world of science):  Thanks for posting that.

It doesn't tell us everything, but it tells us some important things, IMO, like the fact that it's crucial for QB's to have WR's, TE's and RB's who know their assignments and do them as perfectly as possible.

However, that some of the discrepancy is due to Beckham's ability to catch balls that are uncatchable for almost any other WR... so it certainly does nothing to exonerate Eli for being off-target as much as he is.

Bob

I always got a kick out of the name. Haha

As for ball placement, I've always wondered how much of that impacted certain receivers over the years. We all know that Plax was an expert at reeling in the ole Eli high-and-away special. Yet we've seen guys like SS struggle mightily with some of those balls.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: TONKA56 on September 11, 2017, 05:24:46 PM
Eli is a slightly above average QB at this point in his career. He is mid-level. They can win with him at the helm, but sadly, they cannot win with him with the personnel around him. He needs a tough offensive line and a running game to prosper. They Giants don't have that. They have skilled receivers. Unfortunately Giant management did the right thing by shoring up the defense after 2015; a good defense will keep you competitive. But next to the defense the most important element, besides QB, is the offensive line. It has been neglected or the people put there have not lived up to expectations. The Giants will not be better than a wild card team unless something drastically changes with the offensive line and I don't see that happening until Eli is done.

Yep, some of us saw this coming.


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jimv on September 11, 2017, 05:42:23 PM
A while back (around page 3 or so) Ed said that he seemed like Brady did on Thursday; not enough pre season playing time & being too rusty.  Sounded reasonable then & it still sounds reasonable.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 11, 2017, 05:45:45 PM
Of course, I didnt say that but your assuming skills need some tweaking.

The problem is drafting, plain and simple. The reason I brought up OBJ's contract is that giving him a megadeal when the team has had a losing record with him - how does it make us better? Yes, I understand Eli takes up a huge cap room - but all franchise QBs do. He is the 10th highest paid player this year. It is much harder to find a QB than a WR.
IMO Eli is no longer a franchise QB and is now taking up way too much cap room .
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: TONKA56 on September 11, 2017, 05:48:47 PM
IMO Eli is no longer a franchise QB and is now taking up way too much cap room .

I disagree. He is what he always has been. But I would concur that he is overpayed.  He was payed based on his two Super Bowl mvp performances. In reality he is a good quarterback that needs a strong supporting cast to be successful and to a degree his current salary makes providing that cast difficult. I see no regression. I just see Eli. 


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 11, 2017, 05:48:55 PM
Speaking of Simms, there was a guy that was impervious to pressure from the opposing D line.  He faced down the Eagles, Bears, Redskins and 49er D lines and never flinched a bit.  I can still see the CBS Sports "Simms Under Pressure" graphic.

Knowing full well that is easier said than done and that he does not have adequate protection on too many plays, I'm getting tired of Eli feeling pressure that is not there.  Brandon Marshall is still running if Eli doesn't miss that pass to the left flat.  Momentum creating plays are left out there.  This is now seven games that the offense hasn't scored 20 points.
wasn't it Ron Jaworsksi who said that a good QB has to be able to look down the gun barrel and deliver the  ball, it takes nerves that I don't think Eli has anymore....
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Bob In PA on September 11, 2017, 05:53:39 PM
I always got a kick out of the name. Haha

As for ball placement, I've always wondered how much of that impacted certain receivers over the years. We all know that Plax was an expert at reeling in the ole Eli high-and-away special. Yet we've seen guys like SS struggle mightily with some of those balls.

Amani Toomer was also on a special wavelength with Eli.  In any event, a QB has a lot to do, a lot to think about (where to spend all of his money LOL), WHICH player to throw the ball to, WHERE to place it.  Sometimes a defensive lineman's hand (or head) is in the lane where the QB wants to deliver the ball, so he must intentionally throw it to a less-than-optimum location.  Sometimes, a receiver gets pushed off his route so he's in the "wrong" place.  A whole lot of stuff, all at once..... but sometimes, it is just the QB stinking up the joint!!!  Bob
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: todge on September 11, 2017, 08:20:10 PM
I disagree. He is what he always has been. But I would concur that he is overpayed.  He was payed based on his two Super Bowl mvp performances. In reality he is a good quarterback that needs a strong supporting cast to be successful and to a degree his current salary makes providing that cast difficult. I see no regression. I just see Eli. 


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Please name me a QB in this league who doesn't need a good supporting cast to be successful.


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 11, 2017, 09:46:01 PM
Rich, Id be curious to see if you think that the Saints should do the same thing with Brees that you want done with Eli? Same with SD and Rivers.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: GordonG on September 11, 2017, 11:47:39 PM
I can tell everyone one thing for sure.  If the OL can not get cohesive there is no point wasting 20mm a year on a QB no matter who he is. 
Title: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 12, 2017, 06:59:49 AM
I can tell everyone one thing for sure.  If the OL can not get cohesive there is no point wasting 20mm a year on a QB no matter who he is.

But why do we care so much about the money?

Clearly this isn't about not being able to afford to buy an OLINE MAN. Obviously they have plenty and they are going to spend it the way that they want. (See Spring 2016).

Why doesn't their starting QB deserve market value for an NFL starting QB?

Edit to add: this isn't pointed at you Gordon, I'm replying to the discussion as a whole.


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 08:13:05 AM
Instead of blaming the QB's contract for having a bad OLine.... how about we place the blame on the GM who spent premium selections and free agent money on these guys?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 08:17:26 AM
Rich, Id be curious to see if you think that the Saints should do the same thing with Brees that you want done with Eli? Same with SD and Rivers.

Dale,

The Chargers scored 21 points and the Saints 19.    The Giants scored 3 points.  If we didn't have Eli what would we have scored?  0?   Is three points worth $20 million a year?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 08:26:36 AM
Dale,

The Chargers scored 21 points and the Saints 19.    The Giants scored 3 points.  If we didn't have Eli what would we have scored?  0?   Is three points worth $20 million a year?

The Saints had 9 points until they scored a meaningless TD with like 20 seconds left in the game. The fact remains still. The Giants are coming off an 11-5 season. The Saints and Chargers have been irrelevant for the playoffs for years now. If you cant make the playoffs - who cares how many points they scored? The main point is winning. Drew Brees has been to the playoffs as many times in his career as Eli and Rivers less.

Lets talk hypothetically. If the Giants didnt make the playoffs last year and didnt make it this year, that means they would not have amde the playoffs in 6 seasons. At that point, even I myself woudl think its time to start over with a new QB.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 08:36:28 AM
The Saints had 9 points until they scored a meaningless TD with like 20 seconds left in the game. The fact remains still. The Giants are coming off an 11-5 season. The Saints and Chargers have been irrelevant for the playoffs for years now. If you cant make the playoffs - who cares how many points they scored? The main point is winning. Drew Brees has been to the playoffs as many times in his career as Eli and Rivers less.

Lets talk hypothetically. If the Giants didnt make the playoffs last year and didnt make it this year, that means they would not have amde the playoffs in 6 seasons. At that point, even I myself woudl think its time to start over with a new QB.

Dale,

The Giants had one of the worst offenses in the league last year.  So I think it's safe to say the Giants won despite their offense rather than because of their offense (they averaged less than 20 points a game if I remember correctly).   At this point, I am mindful that this was only one game.   Things could still turn around and Eli could still have an excellent season.   If that happens great, Eli should be here at least for another season or two.  However early signs are not promising and if Eli has another poor season like he did last year, I think it's time to start looking elsewhere.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 08:40:16 AM
He wasnt poor last season.

4 of his top 6 skilled guys from last year are out of football. Think about that for a second. He wasnt great by any means, but he certainly wasnt poor considering what he had to work with.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 12, 2017, 10:01:28 AM
Its the going rate for QBs.
its not the going rate for a QB who is in obvious decline, it might be for a QB who is playing at a decent level but even blind man can see that Eli is no longer helping tis team.......
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 10:46:41 AM
its not the going rate for a QB who is in obvious decline, it might be for a QB who is playing at a decent level but even blind man can see that Eli is no longer helping tis team.......

No it is the going rate.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jimv on September 12, 2017, 11:04:51 AM
Ok.  Here's Eli's "BAD" 2016 season:

63 % Completions
4,0237 Yards
26 TDs
16 INTs

How many QBs would LOVE to have a "bad" season like that?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 11:08:59 AM
Ok.  Here's Eli's "BAD" 2016 season:

63 % Completions
4,0237 Yards
26 TDs
16 INTs

How many QBs would LOVE to have a "bad" season like that?

Jim, keep in 4 of his top 6 skilled people werent good enough to be on someones team this year.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 12:17:15 PM
Ok.  Here's Eli's "BAD" 2016 season:

63 % Completions
4,0237 Yards
26 TDs
16 INTs

How many QBs would LOVE to have a "bad" season like that?

One stat is missing and that is my beloved yard per attempt.  Eli was ranked 25th in that stat at 6.73 yards per pass attempt.

The other thing to look at is the TD to INT ration.   Ideally you like to see a ratio of 2 to 1 or better.   Eli only had a 1.625 to 1 ratio
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: COGiantFan on September 12, 2017, 12:28:29 PM
Jim, keep in 4 of his top 6 skilled people werent good enough to be on someones team this year.

And several of his O-linemen would have little chance of being in the league if THEY were cut. 
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jimv on September 12, 2017, 12:30:46 PM
I stat is missing and that is my beloved yard per attempt.  Eli was ranked 25th in that stat at 6.73 yards per pass attempt.

The other thing to look at is the TD to INT ration.   Ideally you like to see a ratio of 2 to 1 or better.   Eli only had a 1.625 to 1 ratio


Even so, I repeat, "How many QBs would love to have a 'bad' season like that?"
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 12:32:52 PM

Even so, I repeat, "How many QBs would love to have a 'bad' season like that?"

According to the list-  5

Ryan Fitzpatrick, Joe Flacco, Blake Bortles, Carson Wentz, and Brock Osweiler

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt/year/2016
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: andrew_nyGiants on September 12, 2017, 01:56:19 PM
One stat is missing and that is my beloved yard per attempt.  Eli was ranked 25th in that stat at 6.73 yards per pass attempt.

The other thing to look at is the TD to INT ration.   Ideally you like to see a ratio of 2 to 1 or better.   Eli only had a 1.625 to 1 ratio


Yes but doesn't a large portion of the yards per attempt stat lay at the feet of the design of the offense. You know, quick release, get the ball to the receiver in space and allow him to get his YAC?


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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 02:04:15 PM

Yes but doesn't a large portion of the yards per attempt stat lay at the feet of the design of the offense. You know, quick release, get the ball to the receiver in space and allow him to get his YAC?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In my mind Yards per attempt is scheme neutral.  If you complete more passes with fewer yards per pass or you complete less passes with more yards per pass, they both offset at least to a degree.   It will reward the QB who puts the ball on the receiver in stride though as that will lead to more YAC
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 12, 2017, 04:24:21 PM
Instead of blaming the QB's contract for having a bad OLine.... how about we place the blame on the GM who spent premium selections and free agent money on these guys?
placing the blame on Reese for the shortcomings of the team is pointless because he seems to be able to walk on water with the front office and is the Teflon Don in this organization, ask TC how he feels about that..
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 12, 2017, 04:29:30 PM
The Saints had 9 points until they scored a meaningless TD with like 20 seconds left in the game. The fact remains still. The Giants are coming off an 11-5 season. The Saints and Chargers have been irrelevant for the playoffs for years now. If you cant make the playoffs - who cares how many points they scored? The main point is winning. Drew Brees has been to the playoffs as many times in his career as Eli and Rivers less.

Lets talk hypothetically. If the Giants didnt make the playoffs last year and didnt make it this year, that means they would not have amde the playoffs in 6 seasons. At that point, even I myself woudl think its time to start over with a new QB.
I think we should be honest with ourselves here about the teams record last year, did anybody really see a SB caliber team even when we were winning the close games, I didn't, personally I thought we had no business in the playoffs because we really weren't that good, what we were was lucky..
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Hadron on September 12, 2017, 04:53:41 PM

Even so, I repeat, "How many QBs would love to have a 'bad' season like that?"

How many QBs would love to have OBJ? He's propped up Eli since he entered the league.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 05:16:20 PM
How many QBs would love to have OBJ? He's propped up Eli since he entered the league.
Great point

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Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 05:25:48 PM
How many teams would like to have Hart and Flowers as their bookend tackles?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: MightyGiants on September 12, 2017, 05:29:06 PM
How many teams would like to have Hart and Flowers as their bookend tackles?

More than you think Dale.  While the Giants may have a bottom half of the league O-line they are hardly the worst.   Houston's line gave up 10 sacks to the Jags for example.   
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
More than you think Dale.  While the Giants may have a bottom half of the league O-line they are hardly the worst.   Houston's line gave up 10 sacks to the Jags for example.

There isnt one team in the league who want those 2 starting. Come on Rich, lets be real for a second.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 12, 2017, 07:58:46 PM
To add to Rich's point...

Browns gave up 8 sacks. You think they are calling us to trade Flowers for Joe Thomas straight up?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Robert_mtl on September 13, 2017, 09:13:29 PM
Apparently Eli can't function without 5 all pros on the oline blocking for him. Where are the Giants going to find these allpro squad?
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 13, 2017, 09:54:55 PM
Eli has only played with 2 OL in hsi career that were ever all-pro and they only made it 1x a piece. So lets settle down with exaggerations.... so far this week...

pat traina
ESPN
Bob Papa
Dan Duggan
Geoff Schwartz
Jordan Raanan

They have alll said that the main problem is the OL. Now I am not one to quote the media, but these are giant beat writers too. And Justin Pugh was our highest rated lineman according to PFF and his pass blocking was at 47. Sometimes ones narratives need to be pushed aside for actual facts.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Robert_mtl on September 13, 2017, 10:11:44 PM
Eli had arguably the best oline in football for a good chuck of his career.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 13, 2017, 10:23:49 PM
Deleted my post. If the mods let you do what you want, I am not going to stop you.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 14, 2017, 08:54:29 AM
More than you think Dale.  While the Giants may have a bottom half of the league O-line they are hardly the worst.   Houston's line gave up 10 sacks to the Jags for example.

Houston also had two inexperienced QBs who unlike Eli aren't going to recognize pressure and get rid of the ball as quickly as Eli does.

Eli had arguably the best oline in football for a good chuck of his career.

And since 2013 has had one of the worst lines in the league
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 14, 2017, 08:58:42 AM
Eli hasnt had a good OLine since 2008.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Rambo89 on September 14, 2017, 09:01:33 AM
Eli hasnt had a good OLine since 2008.

He hasn't had a great one since 2008.  Lines from 2009-2012 were good enough.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 14, 2017, 09:06:57 AM
His OL in 2009, 2011, were rated one of the worst in the leagues.

2011, we had the worst run game in the NFL.
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: jerseyguy on September 14, 2017, 03:56:53 PM
One stat is missing and that is my beloved yard per attempt.  Eli was ranked 25th in that stat at 6.73 yards per pass attempt.

The other thing to look at is the TD to INT ration.   Ideally you like to see a ratio of 2 to 1 or better.   Eli only had a 1.625 to 1 ratio
MG good points there, I have always felt that people like to believe stats when actually stats can be very misleading and seldom tell the whole story...
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: Robert_mtl on September 14, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
No they werent
Title: Re: I am beginning to question if the season would be lost without Eli
Post by: AP44 on September 14, 2017, 04:25:15 PM
The stats say otherwise.

Whats your angle?