Big Blue Huddle

I seriously doubt this would happen.   Daniel Jones is the consummate professional and ultimate team player; I would be shocked if he said or did anything that would hurt his team.

Quote from: TDToomer on April 23, 2024, 09:19:21 AMGeorge Young could not draft a stud WR if he tried. His best was Earnest Gray in his very first draft. Issac Bruce was still on the board when he picked Lewis. Didn't he justify his pick reasoning that because of the swirling winds of old Giants Stadium he preferred short route guys over deep threats?

That is a good point about George Young and WRs.  Although with all the WRs he drafted, he did have a couple of hits with Toomer and Ed McCaffery (although his best work was with another team)

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 09:54:10 AMBall placement and accuracy: hitting a receiver in stride, throwing it to a spot that doesn't get him killed.

Touch and finesse on passes. Not telegraphing passes to give the safety a bead on the pass/receiver.

Pocket awareness.

If a receiver doesn't get open, runs the wrong route, or fails to catch the ball or the blocking doesn't give he QB time to throw, none of what you just cited matters.  There needs to be a level of performance before a QB's play can make a difference.

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 09:44:08 AMThere is a difference in challenging your statement(s) versus challenging you, the person.

I did not challenge you; I posed questions to you regarding your statement about Jones not having an elite receiver.

When you put forth a statement and incorrectly attribute it to a group of people, loosely based on something that was previously said, that is twisting words. No two ways about it.

At this point, I do challenge you to find a post claiming, "Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open..." If you can't, then please retract that as it is a false accusation and goes against the decorum of the board.

Tim,

How exactly does a quarterback "elevate the play of those around them" if not by having them do their jobs better??? I appreciate the phrase, which is a common one, but if I take on your role of challenging things, the phrase doesn't hold up to even moderate scrutiny.

Quote from: coggs on April 23, 2024, 09:33:53 AMI agree in theory, but I doubt these 2 think there are 12 and there are current GM's who think there are 25 true first rounders. Yes, some may feel there are a few more, and some a few less.  If I had to guess, I would think 80% of the GM probably feel like there are 10-16.

In most draft classes, the number of first-round graded talent is in the 20s.  This is a particularly lean year thanks to NIL

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 09:32:15 AMRich,

Respectfully, this is where I bow out of the conversation. The statement I highlighted is what creates the tension here. When positions are grossly misrepresented, frankly, it pisses people off when their words get twisted. For the record, not one person has ever stated that.

I appreciate the exchange.

Tim,

You seem to constantly challenge me, but that's okay.  I don't post my opinions lightly, and I am more than capable of defending my thoughts from your challenges.   To your point, are you suggesting that fans don't claim that QBs can improve the play of their offensive teammates?   You went kind of afield of things when you suggested my rewording was "twisting."   What I did was reword the point to better illustrate what was said.   Sure, the vague QB raises the play of those around him SOUNDS better, but it's not as detailed as listing the jobs of those around them that a QB is "elevation" to illustrate the point better.

Quote from: katkavage on April 23, 2024, 09:19:37 AMEverything will start to turn on who the Commander's pick: Daniels or Maye. And then will NE stay put or trade.

From everything I hear, Daniels is the favorite, but you never know

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 09:17:11 AMI have a hard time believing that the perspectives of the 32 currently employed GMs is on par with these two FORMER GMs.

I mean, if that's the case, just cancel rounds 4-7 and get on with training camp.

I'm not knocking their perspectives but I don't think it's prevailing. Hell, if they were that attuned, they'd still have jobs, no?

Tim,

Unlike coaches, there is no GM merry-go-round.  While there have been a few GM retreads, it's no where near as common as head coaching retreads.  Still both men are pretty accomplished.  First here is Mueller's resume

As an executive:
Seattle Seahawks (1983–1989)
Pro personnel assistant
Seattle Seahawks (1990–1994)
Pro personnel director
Seattle Seahawks (1995–1999)
Vice president of football operations
New Orleans Saints (2000–2001)
General manager
Miami Dolphins (2005–2007)
General manager
Los Angeles Chargers (2008–2018)
Senior executive for football operations
Salt Lake Stallions (2018–2019)
General manager
Houston Roughnecks (2020)
Director of pro personnel
Seattle Sea Dragons (2022–2023)
Director of player personnel

Career highlights and awards
NFL Executive of the Year (2000)

As for Lombardi, he has learned from some of the greatest football minds (Al Davis, Bill Walsh, Bill Belichick).  I think Mike has some personal flaws that have made it difficult for him to enjoy success as a GM, but his knowledge is second to know and he is always worth listening to.


Finally, both of these are still well connected in the league.  So their commentary is a combination of what their trained eyes see, along with what they hear in the league (hearing what people who get the respect of being former NFL will hear)

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 09:05:54 AMMy questions, in your perspective, are based on "a false or hyperbolic premise" yet yours is based on...???

The same way you can watch him in games and determine he's seeing ghosts, is the same way I and others can watch those same games and see the things I mentioned. Your eyes aren't better or worse than ours. It's a football Rorschach test.

Most of us have been fair in our assessments of Jones. We just assess him differently than you do. We account for the lack of support from the offensive line but we don't excuse his lack of production because of it. You and others give him a pass for it and want to wait until he gets the proper support in order to truly evaluate him. If "no QB can thrive in this situation" as you and others have suggested, then it also follows that it is extremely asinine and wasteful to throw 80+ million dollars at a guy who has demonstrably proven that he cannot stay healthy or be productive behind this "offensive" line. Of course, that's not on Jones. But his lack of production is.
The same as yours, Rich. Watching the games and reporting what I'm seeing. The fact that others here have seen the same or similar tells me that I'm not DJ... I'm not seeing 'ghosts', which you feel he is. I happen to agree with you. We also agree on the reason: lack of protection primarily.

Tim,

From my perspective, DJ has had some of the worst protection and receivers, and until Daboll, the worst coaching to support him since coming into the league.  While I appreciate that many of Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open, I don't share that view.  I believe that QBs are impacted by the support they receive not vice versa.

In addition, I have to reconcile comments from someone I greatly respect, like Greg Cosell (I admire both his tape study acumen as well as his extreme adherence to intellectual honest), who talks about Daniel Jones having the ability to be a good NFL QB with the criticism I see on this forum which from the comments many of the critics seem to think Jones has no redeeming qualities.  Plus, there are the intellectually dishonest comments about "excuse making" or "Jones needs everything perfect," which really make it difficult to take some of the critics seriously.  It also doesn't help that I have seen many of the Jones critics beating their chests, talking about how they have been "right" about Jones being a bad QB (that sort of thing shows that bias is possible, if not likely).

Look, there isn't an NFL commentator I respect that didn't agree with Mara's comment about doing everything possible to screw up Daniel Jones.   I am mindful that such actions can have permanent and/or lasting consequences.  Jones has never enjoyed the support an NFL QB needs to be fully successful.   Unfortunately, now, injuries, being gun shy from the beating, and faults being magnified by the bad situation may have derailed DJ's career permanently, especially in light of the injuries he sustained.

Look, I appreciate my role in creating some of the extreme criticism.  It seems when I challenged what I felt was unfair criticism, it tended to only make the critics dig in their heals and become even more negative on Daniel Jones.   The reality is short of a miracle comeback by Jones. I doubt the most ardent critics of Jones, and I will never see eye to eye on the subject.  That's life, people will see things differently.

https://x.com/clt_ny/status/1782754980060938662

I have listened to all the rumors and all the insiders.  This is the best I can discern when it comes to the Giants desires for round one.


1)  The Giants would like to draft a quarterback but on their terms.  In other words, for the right price, the Giants would move up to take a QB, or they would take one if he falls to six.

2)  Maye seems to be the quarterback the Giants have the most interest in.  JJ is another QB the Giants may have interest in, but it doesn't sound like he would be a trade-up target

3)  Failing to secure a QB, the Giants will sit at 6 and take the best WR on their board.  I have no idea how the Giants have stacked the 3 WRs prospects

Mike Lombardi talked about how there are only 12 first-round picks in this draft


Randy Mueller said that the talent drops off quickly on day three and that many day three picks will be no better than undrafted rookie free agents.

Those two issues will greatly impact how teams address this year's draft.

For example-  the 11th pick of the Vikings has good value, the 23rd pick, not so much

Late round picks will have less value in trades making it more difficult to engineer trades

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 08:14:57 AMRich,

Can you kindly answer my questions first? 

From my perspective, your question seems to be based on a false or hyperbolic premise.  That makes it difficult for me to answer.  Is DJ seeing ghosts because of NYG's failure to protect?  It appears so.  Would an elite WR change that?  It's hard to say; I haven't talked to DJ (the team does have a sports psychologist, which would be helpful.   Will DJ stay healthy with an elite WR? Again, hard to say

As @AZGiantFan brought up with the claims of many of DJ's critics that he needs perfect conditions (when DJ hasn't even had NFL normal), it's tough to discuss a player when the criticism is often more hyperbolic than reasoned.  Oddly enough, the more myself and others try to be fair in our assessment of DJ, it seems to push the criticism of Jones to even greater levels.

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 08:10:06 AMIf he had a "healthy, elite receiver", would he still bird dog him and telegraph where he's going with the ball?

Would he still look for checkdowns when the pressure comes instead of giving his elite receiver an opportunity to catch a contested ball?

Will he still wait until his elite receiver has at least five yards of separation before going deep?

Would he still hear footsteps when he has a clean pocket?

Would he look downfield when the play breaks down to find any open receivers?

Those are my issues with Jones and why I feel we need to move on from him.

Tim,

How did you determine the faults you claim DJ has?

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on April 22, 2024, 06:32:50 PMI'm seeing some reports that assert Philly tampering to get Saquon and may be looking at forfeiture of a draft pick?

A) does anyone know if it's true?

And

B) would we not be the recipient of the pick in question because if they tampered it would have to be while he was still under contract?

What say you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

There were reports and supposedly the NFL investigated.  It appears nothing came of it.