Big Blue Huddle

General Category => Big Blue Huddle => Topic started by: Philosophers on February 17, 2017, 10:36:04 AM

Title: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Philosophers on February 17, 2017, 10:36:04 AM
Sorry but after our beloved OL of Snee, Kareem, Shaun, etc retired, our OL has gone downhill.  For a solid 4 year stretch pundits talked about OL the way they talk now of the Cowboys' OL.

Few years ago, we drafted Pugh, who started out fine then regressed, then improved, but has he panned out as a successful pick at 19 (I think) in round 1?

Richburg gets drafted in the 2nd round and struggles at guard, but seems to have settled in nicely at center and as a good one.

Jerry is well, John Jerry.  A guy I liked coming out of the draft, but someone who can't run block.

Marshall is simply way over his skiis as a starting ROT.

Flowers is a bust at OLT.  Simple as that.  Either his work ethic is bad, his conditioning is bad or he simply is not smart enough to play the position or some combo.

Coaching - When Ben took over, we replaced our OL coach.  Has he gotten more out of his predecessor than before?

Scheme - Is there some sort of pass blocking heavy scheme within our offensive identity that is simply under emphasizing, under coaching, under teaching our guys to be more effective run blockers?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Philosophers on February 17, 2017, 10:51:18 AM
I will say one other thing.  I know so-called "short" players at certain positions get criticized on that physical metric, but I am also getting a general bias away from "tall" (6'7" or more) as they may not consistently bend quickly enough or move laterally well enough so they end up losing the leverage battle.  Another one of Flowers problems.
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: beaugestus on February 17, 2017, 11:10:04 AM
Lack of talent is the problem especially at the OT position. It is becoming more obvious that Flowers has not grasped the importance of technique at the NFL level and/or simply does not have the drive to work on his game. I don't think it's the coaching he has had two respected OL coaches and they have not been able to reach him.

Jerry and Pugh are to be commended that they went to the OL school last off-season and seemed to help both. John Jerry in particular.

I mentioned in another post Sean O'Hara commented that the lack of competition within that unit was not a positive.
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Vette on February 17, 2017, 11:18:13 AM
Since there were no coaching changes, it's apparent they don't see an issue here. I really think they needed a better offensive mind in that group. I think however that FA and the Draft will be focused on Offense more than Defense this year. 
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: jerseyguy on February 17, 2017, 11:38:05 AM
year after year it s the same problem, is it the players or the coaching or the scheme, I don't know but the problem is in there somewhere...
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: todge on February 17, 2017, 12:39:04 PM
Sorry but after our beloved OL of Snee, Kareem, Shaun, etc retired, our OL has gone downhill.  For a solid 4 year stretch pundits talked about OL the way they talk now of the Cowboys' OL.

Few years ago, we drafted Pugh, who started out fine then regressed, then improved, but has he panned out as a successful pick at 19 (I think) in round 1?

Richburg gets drafted in the 2nd round and struggles at guard, but seems to have settled in nicely at center and as a good one.

Jerry is well, John Jerry.  A guy I liked coming out of the draft, but someone who can't run block.

Marshall is simply way over his skiis as a starting ROT.

Flowers is a bust at OLT.  Simple as that.  Either his work ethic is bad, his conditioning is bad or he simply is not smart enough to play the position or some combo.

Coaching - When Ben took over, we replaced our OL coach.  Has he gotten more out of his predecessor than before?

Scheme - Is there some sort of pass blocking heavy scheme within our offensive identity that is simply under emphasizing, under coaching, under teaching our guys to be more effective run blockers?

Thoughts?

I don't think the issue is either scheme or coaching.  The problems fall squarely on the shoulders of Marc Ross and his Scouts who probably need to reevaluate their grading system when it comes to offensive linemen.
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: MightyGiants on February 17, 2017, 01:05:44 PM
I don't believe the scheme is the issue.   The Giants certainly put enough effort trying to establish the run, but it simply wasn't happening.    Plus McAdoo runs an offense that is very very very offensive linemen friendly.  Eli is nearly always at the top in terms of time to throwing the ball.  Imagine if this line had to run the old Gilbride system or another system that required the linemen to hold their blocks for more than a second or two?

I think the 2015 season McAdoo got by on smoke and mirrors and that only lasts so long as every offseason you have the best and brightest defensive minds in the world breaking down your offense and looking for ways to stop it.   Clearly, the defensive coordinators figured out how to stop Eli and company during the spring and summer of 2016. 

I tend to agree with Todge who puts the blame on the talent the Giants have acquired for the offensive line and will through in their failure to acquire a fallback FB after Johnson got hurt and the failure to have TEs who were capable of contributing to the running game with their blocking. 

I would take the blame for lack of offensive talent further than Todge (who pointed to Mark Ross and the scouts) to include Jerry Reese (who made the choices and seemed to value athletism over production) and a disconnect between Flats and the front office as the offensive line coaches (probably more than most position coaches) plays a key role in scouting offensive line talent to find players that the O-line coach feels the he can develop. 
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Jaime on February 17, 2017, 03:51:32 PM
We may have enough interior lineman to get the job done on our current roster? But both our Tackle positions have to be significantly upgraded if we are to improve as an offensive unit. To get the job done, Free Agency would get my vote. =D>
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Hadron on February 17, 2017, 08:17:41 PM

I think the 2015 season McAdoo got by on smoke and mirrors and that only lasts so long as every offseason you have the best and brightest defensive minds in the world breaking down your offense and looking for ways to stop it.   Clearly, the defensive coordinators figured out how to stop Eli and company during the spring and summer of 2016. 

This is the main reason I was less than impressed with the so called "sixth ranked" offense of 2015. Watching the games from 2015, you could see "issues" that were ripe for exploitation.
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: jerseyguy on February 18, 2017, 11:00:49 AM
This is the main reason I was less than impressed with the so called "sixth ranked" offense of 2015. Watching the games from 2015, you could see "issues" that were ripe for exploitation.
I think this passed seasons win record has masked the fact that we still are not very good on offense and thats what kept us from going further into the playoffs...
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Hadron on February 18, 2017, 12:39:34 PM
I think this passed seasons win record has masked the fact that we still are not very good on offense and thats what kept us from going further into the playoffs...

Yep. The team relied entirely upon  two things all season: the defense and OBJ breaking one big play/game.
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: jerseyguy on February 18, 2017, 04:07:26 PM
Yep. The team relied entirely upon  two things all season: the defense and OBJ breaking one big play/game.
absolutely...
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: afan56 on February 18, 2017, 06:57:35 PM
Going back to the title of this thread, don't we fully expect a reevaluation of all functions of this team? If we don't expect it and get it we are doomed!
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: Philosophers on February 18, 2017, 08:42:41 PM
Think all have to be evaluated.  Nohing gets a pass
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: beaugestus on February 19, 2017, 01:01:58 AM
What I remember about 2015 was of the most god awful D's that the Giants ever fielded. If the O ranking was ypg I would think that they were playing against a lot of prevent Ds and we know that they give up a lot of yardage.
Title: Re: Is It Time For Wholesale Re-Evaluation Of Entire OL Including Coaching, Schemes?
Post by: worf49 on February 19, 2017, 01:29:43 AM
I would think the OL would be the first priority for the coming season.
Flowers if he is ever going to contribute will need to do it at RG. imho

I am not entirely sure that Flowers has the competitive desire to excel.
One would think there would have been some improvement over last season.
It would seem he has talent and with discipline and structure he could elevate his game.

We definitely need an OLT, an ORT and a big improvement at ORG. Plus, we need quality backups.

We should be able to pull it off Methinks.