Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Gmo11 on Today at 11:08:56 AMI'm saying he was hired to do a job and if the ownership doesn't trust him to do it they shouldn't have hired him in the first place.  Ultimately this will end up sticking to him good or bad.  If they run Jones out there again and again he's gonna have a hard time getting another one of those 32 jobs after he's inevitably fired.

He can't get fired and THEN point the finger at an idiot owner that wouldn't let him do his job.   That's sour grapes.  If he actually is being hindered he should say so now, leave, scream to anybody that will listen how none of this was his fault, and when 5 other GM's get fired next season he'll be in the running for some of those jobs.

I don't know if Mara actually is getting in the way or not.  It's all rumors and such even if they are believable rumors.  But I do know if somebody can't properly do his job because his boss won't let him then there's no reason for him to have that job anymore.  Whether he's fired or quits he's in a got to go situation. 

I do agree that Mara's involvement, direct or indirect, makes Schoen's job more difficult.

Quote from: Gmo11 on Today at 10:11:47 AMI can absolutely see a scenario where Mara and Co. are wondering why the hell did we pay Jones all that money last season when now we are so done with him we have to give up other picks in order to replace him.  In a vacuum that would be a fair question to ask.

But much like a lot of the fan base, Mara I assume was also tantalized by the playoff appearance/victory and was not going to be signing off on dumping Jones at that point.  THAT also would have been a hard sell even if it's exactly the right thing they should have done.

So when Mara asks well wait a minute why do we need to do all of this to get a QB now when we just paid Jones, Schoen needs to be able to say to him: "I would have done it last year but you wanted to try one more time with Jones.  We tried.  It failed. He failed.  Now you HAVE to let me do things my way."  If he can't say that to Mara he should leave the job, if he can say that to Mara and gets ignored...he should leave the job or get fired from it.

We cannot have ownership getting in the way of things any more.  It's Mara's team, he can do what he wants with it, but if what he wants is to win he needs to stay the hell out of the way.

I get what you're saying but that's not how things work, or should. Every organization has a hierarchy. There are ramifications and repercussions for taking those actions (leaving or getting fired). He currently has 1 of 32 positions and all of the employers who hire for those positions talk.

In a similar way, you're suggesting he go partial Wink. That would be a bad move. He needs to stay true to himself and do his job as best as he can despite the interference. Doing otherwise would be career suicide.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 12:44:21 AMI am, although there were some foggy months there.  My 2 daughters who live 5 and 15 minutes away from me took magnificent care of me.

Glad you're doing well and your two daughters (and cat!) are taking care of you.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 23, 2024, 10:00:58 PMHis real value as a companion came when my wife passed away unexpectedly in February of 2023.

   

Rich, you're under no obligation to share personal information about your life with us. But man, something as significant as losing your wife can't be casually slipped into conversation!

So sorry to hear about your loss, man. That's heartbreaking 💔

Hope you're coping well 👍🏾

I think the culprits are, in order:

1 - Scouting (talent identification)
2 - Coaching/player development
3 - Coaching instability/carousel

They tried to make a bacon cheeseburger but bought ground turkey instead of ground beef, thinking they could make it taste the same. They bought lean turkey strips because it looks like bacon. They settled for spinach because they couldn't find lettuce.

They have a gas stove but the chef didn't know how to work it. After burning several burgers, more chefs and ingredients were brought in but to no avail. They know what a good bacon cheeseburger is supposed to look like but collectively they have no clue how to make one like it should be made.

Maybe this is why he's undecided...


https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/40009974/wnba-star-kelsey-plum-giants-darren-waller-file-divorce

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 09:47:07 AMTim,

How exactly does a quarterback "elevate the play of those around them" if not by having them do their jobs better??? I appreciate the phrase, which is a common one, but if I take on your role of challenging things, the phrase doesn't hold up to even moderate scrutiny.

Ball placement and accuracy: hitting a receiver in stride, throwing it to a spot that doesn't get him killed.

Touch and finesse on passes. Not telegraphing passes to give the safety a bead on the pass/receiver.

Pocket awareness.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 09:37:29 AMTim,

You seem to constantly challenge me, but that's okay.  I don't post my opinions lightly, and I am more than capable of defending my thoughts from your challenges.   To your point, are you suggesting that fans don't claim that QBs can improve the play of their offensive teammates?   You went kind of afield of things when you suggested my rewording was "twisting."   What I did was reword the point to better illustrate what was said.   Sure, the vague QB raises the play of those around him SOUNDS better, but it's not as detailed as listing the jobs of those around them that a QB is "elevation" to illustrate the point better.

There is a difference in challenging your statement(s) versus challenging you, the person.

I did not challenge you; I posed questions to you regarding your statement about Jones not having an elite receiver.

When you put forth a statement and incorrectly attribute it to a group of people, loosely based on something that was previously said, that is twisting words. No two ways about it.

At this point, I do challenge you to find a post claiming, "Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open..." If you can't, then please retract that as it is a false accusation and goes against the decorum of the board.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 09:19:56 AMTim,

From my perspective, DJ has had some of the worst protection and receivers, and until Daboll, the worst coaching to support him since coming into the league.  While I appreciate that many of Jones' critics believe that QBs can somehow make linemen block better and receivers get open, I don't share that view.  I believe that QBs are impacted by the support they receive not vice versa.

...

Look, I appreciate my role in creating some of the extreme criticism.

Rich,

Respectfully, this is where I bow out of the conversation. The statement I highlighted is what creates the tension here. When positions are grossly misrepresented, frankly, it pisses people off when their words get twisted. For the record, not one person has ever stated that.

I appreciate the exchange.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 08:42:45 AMMike Lombardi talked about how there are only 12 first-round picks in this draft


Randy Mueller said that the talent drops off quickly on day three and that many day three picks will be no better than undrafted rookie free agents.

Those two issues will greatly impact how teams address this year's draft.

For example-  the 11th pick of the Vikings has good value, the 23rd pick, not so much

Late round picks will have less value in trades making it more difficult to engineer trades

I have a hard time believing that the perspectives of the 32 currently employed GMs is on par with these two FORMER GMs.

I mean, if that's the case, just cancel rounds 4-7 and get on with training camp.

I'm not knocking their perspectives but I don't think it's prevailing. Hell, if they were that attuned, they'd still have jobs, no?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 09:05:29 AMhttps://x.com/clt_ny/status/1782754980060938662

Where there's smoke, there's liar(s).

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 08:21:06 AMFrom my perspective, your question seems to be based on a false or hyperbolic premise.  That makes it difficult for me to answer.  Is DJ seeing ghosts because of NYG's failure to protect?  It appears so.  Would an elite WR change that?  It's hard to say; I haven't talked to DJ (the team does have a sports psychologist, which would be helpful.  Will DJ stay healthy with an elite WR? Again, hard to say

As @AZGiantFan brought up with the claims of many of DJ's critics that he needs perfect conditions (when DJ hasn't even had NFL normal), it's tough to discuss a player when the criticism is often more hyperbolic than reasoned. Oddly enough, the more myself and others try to be fair in our assessment of DJ, it seems to push the criticism of Jones to even greater levels.

Quote from: T200 on April 23, 2024, 08:10:06 AMIf he had a "healthy, elite receiver", would he still bird dog him and telegraph where he's going with the ball?

Would he still look for checkdowns when the pressure comes instead of giving his elite receiver an opportunity to catch a contested ball?

Will he still wait until his elite receiver has at least five yards of separation before going deep?

Would he still hear footsteps when he has a clean pocket?

Would he look downfield when the play breaks down to find any open receivers?

My questions, in your perspective, are based on "a false or hyperbolic premise" yet yours is based on...???

The same way you can watch him in games and determine he's seeing ghosts, is the same way I and others can watch those same games and see the things I mentioned. Your eyes aren't better or worse than ours. It's a football Rorschach test.

Most of us have been fair in our assessments of Jones. We just assess him differently than you do. We account for the lack of support from the offensive line but we don't excuse his lack of production because of it. You and others give him a pass for it and want to wait until he gets the proper support in order to truly evaluate him. If "no QB can thrive in this situation" as you and others have suggested, then it also follows that it is extremely asinine and wasteful to throw 80+ million dollars at a guy who has demonstrably proven that he cannot stay healthy or be productive behind this "offensive" line. Of course, that's not on Jones. But his lack of production is.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 08:13:05 AMI think where our concerns diverge is what the future holds for him if he has proper support.
Tim,

How did you determine the faults you claim DJ has?

The same as yours, Rich. Watching the games and reporting what I'm seeing. The fact that others here have seen the same or similar tells me that I'm not DJ... I'm not seeing 'ghosts', which you feel he is. I happen to agree with you. We also agree on the reason: lack of protection primarily.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 23, 2024, 08:13:05 AMTim,

How did you determine the faults you claim DJ has?

Rich,

Can you kindly answer my questions first? 

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 22, 2024, 09:35:50 PMNor a reasonably competent OL.  It always amuses me when people claim that everything has to be perfect for Jones to be effective when no one has ever seen him with even an average OL/WR combo.

Acknowledging up front that none of us have a crystal ball, what, in your estimation, is Jones's ceiling if he had one elite receiver and a "reasonably competent OL"? Specifically, top 10? Top 5? What's he averaging (yards, TDs, INTs, completion %) over a three-year period with that type of support?

Just curious.

Personally, I see a 5-10% bump above his '22 stats.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 22, 2024, 02:37:05 PMThat's where we differ.   I consider that Daniel Jones has never had an opportunity to work with a healthy, elite receiver.  So, I consider it illogical to assume I know how that would play out if it did happen.

If he had a "healthy, elite receiver", would he still bird dog him and telegraph where he's going with the ball?

Would he still look for checkdowns when the pressure comes instead of giving his elite receiver an opportunity to catch a contested ball?

Will he still wait until his elite receiver has at least five yards of separation before going deep?

Would he still hear footsteps when he has a clean pocket?

Would he look downfield when the play breaks down to find any open receivers?

Those are my issues with Jones and why I feel we need to move on from him.