Big Blue Huddle

Huge loss. I hope he's going to be ok.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 14, 2023, 01:55:49 PMJust out of curiosity, what is your best guess as to what happened with the 2017 Eli benching decision that ended his consecutive games streak? Do you think that was proposed to Mara and he gave it the OK? Or do you think McAdoo (and perhaps Reese) just proceeded with doing it and didn't even seek approval?

I ask, because given how emotional and loyal Mara seems to certain people, it is peculiar that he would have OK'd something like that when the team was 2-9. And if he didn't approve it and they just went ahead and did it without even asking him or telling him, then that kind of backs up the claim that coaches/GMs do whatever they think is right, even if Mara himself isn't a fan of the decision.

McAdoo made a decision and I believe Reese went along with it. I find it hard to believe that Reese wouldn't run it by Mara. I think he did and Mara said he disagreed but stepped aside. When the fan base and Eli didn't have his finest moment, Mara placated the fan base. When he should have stood up for his HC. Geno had a decent first game which turned out to be his last.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 01:24:14 PM

It absolutely does look intentional. It's a spinning back kick.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 12:56:37 PMThis in only my opinion...and we all know what that means

I'd move Evan Neal to LG next to Thomas. Neal excelled on the left side of the line in college, so his natural instincts fit well on the line (he could also be the backup LT where he excelled in college). I don't think he's quick enough with his feet to play tackle at the NFL level at RT, besides possibly backup LT, but he's talented and has rare size, strength, and athleticism...just maybe not a perfect fit on the right side and as a RT. We probably should have drafted Charlie Cross in the 2021 draft who was not a bulldozer/run blocking type of OT, but heads above all others in pass protection. He only has a PFF grade of 64 for his first two years, but he's done pretty well in Seattle

We need an agile RT who can pass protect at the NFL level. This is a loaded draft class for tackles, none better than Fashanu, but someone like Kingsley Suamataia [6-6 / 324] is incredibly agile and quick, yet is ranked 10th among OTs, and still in the top 30 overall (tells you just how stacked this years OT class is). From Walter Football: "In 2022, Suamataia transferred to BYU, where he broke out, including not allowing a sack all season. Suamataia has shocking speed and athleticism for an edge blocker of his size. Another big season could make Suamataia a high first-rounder in his draft class." Walter Football has Suamataia ranked 2nd best OT behind Mims, and ahead of Alt and Fashanu https://walterfootball.com/draft2024OT.php

But look at how absolutely stacked the OT class is: https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OT/1/2024 and   
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2024/consensus-big-board-2024?pos=OT

This is also a stacked class of OGs, and we could probably get a Zac Zinter, Tate Ratledge, or Christian Mahogany in the first three rounds (https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OG/1/2024)

LT Thomas / LG Neal / C Schmitz / RG Zinter / RT Suamataia

With such a loaded class at OT and OG, it would inexcusable for the Giants to not finally fix that line!

You're hired!
Actually, you may want to rethink Neal at LG. That's the Guard that pulls. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Neal translates to Guard in Pass Protection. Too slow off the snap, slow feet and hands. I do think he gets another year at RT. Which may be a waste of time. Unfortunately, he should be a good RT but I think a lot of it is mental. He's had a lot of injuries, some nagging and that has held him back from getting reps. 

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 14, 2023, 01:44:06 PMEd: Can't argue with any of that. My biggest Jones complaint is accuracy.

Agree Hyatt can run any route they want. I don't discount his ability, I just don't see a truly elite guy YET.

I also saw this weekend's games and agree. Niice to have a lead and/or play with an established elite WR or two.

Bob

PS. Does the QB make a WR "elite"? Or does an elite WR makes the QB look good? Both? Neither? I believe with the right tools even an undrafted free-agent (that would be Kurt Warner) can win a championship or two.

Both. We won't see what this kid is capable of until he gets targets.

There was one pass where the receiver couldn't handle the hot pass. The botched handoff was a timing issue. But no doubt this wasn't Allen's night. The real killer was the PI and I don't know if I would have thrown the flag there because the Receiver ran into the DB and the 12 men on the field for the second FG attempt after missing the first one. Defeat from the jaws of victory.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:28:14 PMBob Papa has been with the Giants long enough to have a pretty good idea of what's going on.  So there are two possibilities:

1)  Bob Papa is disrespectful towards the fans who espouse conspiracy theories about John Mara that he knows are correct, because he was asked or wishes to curry favor.

OR

2) Bob Papa is angry at the fans espousing the conspiracy theories about Mara, because he knows they are untrue.

Papa wasn't in on any of those closed-door meetings either. Keeping him informed is not a priority. The word that gets passed down is what they want him to hear. Any discussion between Mara and Schoen is not shared with Papa. Now, I'd like to hear what Gettleman and Reese have to say about this as long as their version isn't in their best interests.

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 14, 2023, 01:17:01 PMEd: I think you know I already have it. lol

Regardless, on 95% of the plays when Hyatt is open, breaking into the open, or about to break into the open, the QB has already been sacked, or flushed out of the pocket, or has his first reads on the other side of the field.

There have been very few situations in which none of that was true and a golden opportunity was missed SOLELY due to QB error, QB reluctance, or QB ineptitude.  In short, if all three QB's are missing golden opportunities it says more about mindset implanted in the QB by the coaching than the identity of the QB.

Bob

There have been accuracy and timing issues and the QB has to have a leap of faith on some plays before he gets sacked. When it's one one-on-one, Hyatt will get open and he has a nice catch radius with good hands. The ball just needs to be placed properly. I recall at least two catches where Hyatt had to slow down or adjust to make the catch. Other times the pass was behind him on a crosser or a slant, short or outside when he had inside leverage. I've seen him run several different routes and the hype that he can't is just not completely accurate. I also have seen him block well downfield. Bob, I saw many instances this past weekend where the QB just put it up for his Receiver to make the contested catch. I almost feel bad for the kid that this team drafted him.

The article didn't give specifics but I imagine that the one player stomped on his neck with the blade of his skate. Is that how it happened?

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 14, 2023, 01:06:52 PMThe fact is that the fans have this belief because they are judging based on Mara's actions, not his words, some of which you've outlined above.  And even his words haven't been particularly subtle.  He doesn't have to intervene directly in a decision, all he has to do is create an atmosphere where it is clear what he wants the decision to be.  He's surrounded by yes men and much as I like Papa and Banks, and the rest of the in-house crew, that is what they all are.

Mara also strikes me as someone who doesn't hide their body language and any executive at this level will be a keen reader of Body language. The GM makes a statement and he can pick up on how it was received in an instant. It can be as subtle as that. If I can do it, I know Schoen can do it. You don't survive swimming with sharks if you can't.

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 14, 2023, 12:57:07 PMED: True, but he also has to learn how to block and read defenses better so he picks the very best option on every play where he's running an option route. I agree competent QB work would do wonders for his stats, but so would having just ONE QB to work with. The injury situation, as much (or more) than the level of QB play, IMO, is what I believe to be holding him back, if anything other than just being a rookie is indeed holding him back. Bob

Bob, you really should get the all-22.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 14, 2023, 12:55:39 PMAll but 4 likely come out this year. 2025 will be a horrible draft for Qbs. likely a 1 man show with Aller as none of those other guys are any good.

That's the way it looks. This year there should be 5 QBs that appear to be the real deal. I haven't seen this since 2018. There were 5 that year and all were first-round picks. Only two lived up to the hype and they were the ones that most pundits picked apart. Rosen had character flaws and wasn't willing to put the work in. Darnold never got past his weakness. Mayfield's character issues carried over and became a distraction.

This QB Class looks to be an even better class but surely at least two will bust. Either through injury or their flaws exposed against much better players at the higher level.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 11:07:36 AMI have heard quite a few podcasts call out that early challenge and Daboll trying to rescind the challenge.

I can't help but feel like it's part of a pattern we have seen play out this season where it appears Daboll is letting his emotions get the better of him (like when he told the sideline reporter he couldn't think straight going into the half because Tyrod switched the play to a run).

While head coaches being firey on the sidelines is pretty normal, I think most of the successful ones learn how to take advantage of that passion rather than the passion getting the better of them.

I think most of these challenges come from upstairs and I think that was the case here. As for the antics, I mentioned this in another thread. He truly is angry to the point where it unsettles him and he loses focus. Some coaches make this an act to show they are visibly upset to intimidate the officials on the next close call. Although I felt the sideline reporter should have backed off in a live broadcast, his response to her was clearly out of frustration and he was still frazzled at that point. What's troubling to me is that he has decades of experience and this is a flaw he has in his makeup. It's very hard to correct this or control it.

Mara sealed that perception the day he fired McAdoo in season and replaced him with Spags. When he claims the Offense is broken and Gilbride retires and Tom Coughlin doesn't shake his hand or look him in the eye at his final press conference, it highlights that conspiracy theories in Chat Rooms aren't created in a vacuum.

I love Bob Papa but he's coming to the rescue in an obvious way and disrespectful to a good portion of the fan base that doesn't have the wool pulled over their eyes.

MB makes a good point. I worked for an owner for 25 years and reported directly to him. He preached autonomy but he made his point in subtle ways and you better had to have compelling reasons to put your credibility on the line. Because if you're wrong too many times, your job is on the line.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 14, 2023, 11:30:31 AMThere is talk sometimes of coaches ho wear out their welcome with players agter 6-7 years as their personalities grind on players.

Dabs has come across as a player's coach not a task master.  If he is losing the team in terms of not getting them to listen to him, what does that say about him or the players in the team?

The team has quit. 

Brings to mind that there is a difference in losing the locker room and not risking injury by the level of intensity on the field. You make a good point.

When I see a complete turnaround in Run Blocking from one week to the next and two consecutive abysmal showings by the Defense and a steep decline from their peak, it's an indication that it's more than just talent. Watching the Bills last night with all their mistakes I saw a high level of intensity. They have to show enough not to hurt their market value but there are situations where it's contested passes, gang tackling and getting blindsided where it becomes a business decision.

I'm not as sure as you are but it's something to watch.