Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: katkavage on Today at 02:41:31 PMIf the Giants are not going to trade up for a quarterback they really want, then I really would like them to trade down to acquire picks. I don't know why, but I think Penix flies under the radar and could be the best of the bunch. Just a feeling, nothing more. How about Penix paired with Thomas or Pearsall or one of the other very good receivers out there this year?

Thomas and Pearsall are damn good.  It would jot surprise me if at least one is better than 2 of the top 3.  Penix is interesting because of his accuracy.  Injuries do scare me a lot.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on Today at 03:56:32 PMPleasure, and back at you.

Fair enough. Jones did face tougher competition in 2023 than the others, that is true. No argument from me there.

Ok, but Jones played two of his six games last year with Thomas active, and he looked utterly wretched in both games. He got hurt in the second quarter of one of them, so it's just one and change games (I get not a big sample), but there is no evidence that he was much better with Thomas last year than without him. And we have both seen him start plenty of games with Thomas at LT where Jones looked bad.

The team had some modest success in 2022 (9-7-1), although they were a bottom third passing offense. What was the other year that Jones was the starter in which the team had success?

I think offensive line play is very important and have certainly never suggested otherwise. Well all know the Giants have had very poor line play for a decade now. I don't think that gives Jones a full pass though, as some seem to. I think he has been bad, even taking that into account, and I would argue that last year was pretty telling in this regard.

Yes but in one of those games (first game of season) with Thomas against Dallas, he got sacked I think 9 times and pressured heavily on well over 50% of his throws.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 02:48:22 PMHere are the two rankings per PFF

Pass Blocking

2019- 16
2020- 32
2021- 31
2022- 24
2023- 32

Receiving

2019- 17
2020- 25
2021- 31
2022- 27
2023- 32

WRs need a good OL too.  Marginal WR play may not be due completely with the WRs themselves. 

Quote from: sxdxca38 on Today at 02:22:38 PMHere are the rankings:

- 2019 ranked 17th -
- 2020 ranked 31st -
- 2021 ranked 30th -
- 2022 ranked 18th -
- 2023 ranked 30th -

The two years the Giants had a decent offensive line was in 2019 and 2022.

In both of those years Daniel Jones had his best seasons, including making the playoffs and winning a game in 2022.

The three years the Giants had an awful offensive line were in 2020, 2021, and 2023, ranked 31st, 30th, and 30th.

In those three years Daniel Jones had his worst years as a player, and the teams record was 6-10, 4-13, and 6-11.

My questions to everyone here is:

A) What can we learn from this data?

And

B) How important is the offensive line to Daniel Jones' success, and the team's ability to win as a whole?

No right or wrong answer here as I am just curious everyone's opinion?

The OL is important to any QB's success.  Ask any QB.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 01:21:04 PMIf you read the long ESPN article (the link is in my Bill Belichick post from today) it seems a big part of the reason Belichick didn't get another HC job is that the league is moving away from the powerful head coach model (yet the two SB teams are both teams with powerful HCs)

One thing I have noticed since Bowen replaced Martindale as the new DC is that both Daboll and Henderson talked about Bowen being a good teammate.  This tracks with the Giant's accusations that Martindale didn't seek out input from his entire staff but only his trusted lieutenants.

These two things got me thinking.  Which model is the more successful one?   Are teams better off with a management style that is all about collaborations and agreement (sort of management by committee) or are teams better served with one or two powerful voices in the room?

My take is that the collaborative approach is sort of like buying many different types of stocks (diversify your portfolio) to protect from downturns.  The shortcoming to that approach is you tend to mute the upside a bit for the same reason you are protecting your downside.

In other words, if you get the right one or two voices, a team will enjoy higher highs (and risk lower lows) than if they adopt the collaborative approach, which serves as a moderating influence for both good and bad.

I am curious what others think.

Rich - I am reminded of what I think is the best org structure and that would come from Native American tribes.  They have a chief, a tribal council made up of key elders.  They sit around and the Chief listens to everyone's viewpoints then renders a decision based on those viewpoints that he thinks is in the best interest of the tribe.  Whereas key elders may consider only one aspect, a leader considers it in the context of other factors as well.

Someone needs to be the leader but great leaders listen to all viewpoints.  Great leaders also have vision. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:43:34 AMJoe,

I think one way to see which way you lean is which type of draft trade you generally prefer.

1)  Trade up to grab to grab a better prospect

2)  Trade down to get more picks

Rich - I agree however it should change based on the quality of the team, how it is constructed and where it's glaring hole is and the depth of the talent in that year's draft to fill that hole and of course the current and future budget of the team and contracts expiring.

Teams that are built to win may look to trade up to get their guy that fills their glaring hole.  Teams in full rebuild need picks.  I think the Giants are more of the latter in 2024.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 09:34:48 AMWell he isn't making that mistake now because he already did that going into 2023.

Ha Ha so true.  2022 was a desert mirage, but unfortunately, the Giants brass thought they were looking at Dubai.

The closer we get to the draft, the more I am thinking that the Giants management/coaches see DJ as the starting QB and do not feel a need to draft a QB this year.  I also believe they realize this team has so many needs now that drafting a QB with so many holes is fruitless.  Look no further than how Mac Jones fell apart as the rest of his team did.  Giants need to load up on top end talent and shore up many holes.

My thoughts:

1) Trade up - < 10% probability
2) Stay put and draft a non-QB - 70%
3) Trade back and draft a non-QB - 20%

I don't think the Giants will draft a QB in a later round either as they have a young QB in Drew Lock.  Drafting a later round QB is basically only replacing him and they see that draft pick as being more important to upgrade another position.

You need better top end talent as well as better depth to be among the best teams.  Simple as that.  Football is a sport in which major injuries will occur and how well your second and third string players play will often be a difference.  That said, your best guys need to beat the other team's best guys consistently as well.

Not sure how anyone can see this as one versus the other.

Quote from: 4 Aces on April 18, 2024, 07:01:35 PMThat's a great way of articulating it.

I've been saying this for a long time, in "defense" of Jones.

You can get by with a bad OL and good skill players, or a good OL with bad skill players. But you won't get by with a bad OL & bad skills. NFL is too good for that.

I do not believe for a second you can get by with a bad OL and good skill position players.  The OL drives everything.

Accumulating draft capital is always good in my mind as the so-called quality at the top often does not correlate to NFL success.  Love the more bites at the apple strategy.

If the Giants want a QB, they like all four QBs they can trade to 4 and give up less to trade two places than say in 2025 if they are maybe 10th and have to trade up to 1st or 2nd pick.

It's all about their real need for a QB and whether they like 1, 2, 3 or 4 QBs

Draftable as what?  Unless we know where their grades were it is sort of meaningless.  Also I am sure every year they have draftable grades in players who return to school.  Sort of a meaningless comment without more context.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 11:59:15 AMTake Eli Manning:

Here are Manning's stats by year.  Consider two years.  In 2014, the Giants added OBJ, and in 2018, the Giants added Barkley.  Look at Eli's QB rating, and QBR jumps from the two additions.   The addition of OBJ had a much greater impact on Eli's production than the addition of Barkley.  Be mindful that early in his career, Barkley was a much bigger weapon in the passing game.

Rich - you can't draw a conclusion from one example.  The Giants OL when they drafted Barkley was not as effective which was why so many of us were screaming for Nelson to be drafted for OL.

Rich - I simply can't buy that.  With a great OL and strong running game you can win with average WRs as they can always eventually get open with great pass blocking.  A great running game does not allow a DL to just focus on getting to the QB.