Big Blue Huddle

Should the title of this thread say 2020 rather than 2000?

He had one of the best CB seasons I've ever seen from a Giant two seasons ago until the punt return decision.  He took a step back last season but still had some big moments.

I think if they had to make a choice between big funds for McKinney or cheaper contract for Jackson as a #2 CB, they should choose Jackson.  Banks is going to get better on a rookie contract and Jackson's contract in a market where he's not in the top ten is going to be great for the team's cap space situation. 

How much does the QB making adjustments at line influence the OL performance?  It probably depends on how the defense lines up and they line up depending on the offense talent plus risk/reward variations.

There are probably a lot of factors going into the line play, I wonder what they are and what the plan is to address each independent challenge comprehensively. 

I think the right decision is to recognize Daboll is a toxic employee and should be let go even if there consequences for firing another HC after only two years.

There are a lot of factors that influence the probability of winning a game so it's hard to point to specific outcomes in short period of time. 

You can't turn an organization around if existing staff are toxic or poor performers.  It demotivates/keeps away high performers and brings down moderate performers.  The highest rungs of an organization must set standard of professional respect in addition to performance.

How could anyone respect an assistant coach who comes to NYG after researching Daboll's reputation?  Paychecks are a short term motivator.  Purpose is what truly drives motivation.  If an organization holds onto a toxic leader, the talent that is motivated by winning and respect is going to stay far away.  I don't think the Giants can sustain a turnaround as long as Daboll is there.

Coughlin was transparent in his rules and consequences of breaking those rules and applied them uniformly.  The necessity of which rules were really needed was open for debate during his time as HC.  Daboll is acting capriciously.

Toxic work environments can't be sustained.  It can be ignored when things are going well though. 

They shouldn't stick with sunk cost only for the sake of stability at the position.

It's time for Antonio Pierce to be head coach of the New York Football Giants!

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 06:09:23 PMI like Antonio Pierce and have a lot of respect for how he handled his time in Vegas as interim head coach, but it should be noted that he has never been an NFL defensive coordinator before. He was the linebackers coach there and then promoted directly to interim HC after the Josh McDaniels firing.

I'm not saying he wouldn't be a good DC, but the point of the matter is that this would be uncharted territory for him. There is a difference between being in the CEO role and being a defensive tactician who calls plays on every snap. It would be a speculative hire from a skillset perspective if they went in that direction. He has no experience or track record as a DC.

I'd take Pierce over Daboll right now.  He inspires.  Maybe one day in his future he'll be the HC of the Giants.

Quote from: Painter on December 12, 2023, 07:17:42 PMHardly! Any improvement in their usual Division 2 pass blocking was due largely to Devito's faster decision-making, getting rid of the ball quicker and running when he couldn't. And don't let those couple of late game dashes by Barkley fool you as overall the run blocking was actually worse than it has been.

Cheers!

I also think by 4th quarter the Packers defense became more cautious of DeVito keeping the ball and that could have helped Barkley too.

I am worried about the volume of hits DeVito is taking on either a sack or a run.  At least he has some more control when he takes off and is brought down ahead of the line of scrimmage instead of behind it.  That alone probably added a ton of net yardage to the offense compared to the last couple of games.  Maybe as the game slows down for him and gels more with WRs he'll get more passes off without taking a hit.  Once defenses adjust to his scramble threat it's going to open opportunities elsewhere (e.g. more time in pocket, easier runs for the RB, openings in the secondary).

Quote from: Trench on December 12, 2023, 08:14:46 PMGood assessment. The best thing was being able to evaluate Jones based upon what backup QBs could do.

Personally, I am looking forward to seeing Devito throw to Waller and see how he helps the kid. Hopefully sooner than later.

Who does Waller replace for most of his snaps?  What's the ripple effect on the offense? 

I think Waller is very talented but keeping him in as an extra blocker doesn't play to his strength and DeVito went from taking sacks to being a running QB.  Does Waller fit well with the system used against Green Bay?  Maybe it's a different system with Waller and a better one for DeVito and we won't know until he takes the field.  I don't think Waller and offensive system changes he brought complemented the Jones/Barkley system from last year that paired so well with the defense.  It's why I have mixed expectations.

That was such a fun game to watch, great win!

The worst team should get the first pick and so on.  Deliberately losing to cheat the system isn't good for the integrity of the game.  It's harmful and unfair to the players who are giving it their all.

The giants have a great defense that is going to get them victories despite a terrible offense.  Because of their overall talent they shouldn't be picking number one. While I'm optimistic, even I was surprised yesterday that they could win with an undrafted 3rd string rookie QB.  I hope he wins a few more and they end up with an appropriate draft pick that reflects the talent of the team, averaged over the course of a season.  Draft talk before the season ends distracts from the joy of watching the games.

If Thomas, Jones, Barkley, and Taylor weren't injured we wouldn't have started this debate.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 09, 2023, 10:27:22 AMFor me it was the Seattle game. They had 11 days to prepare and it was truly a must-win, and they were at home, and they were just so inept. That was the game that really put the season to bed for me. The Dallas game was obviously a disaster but it also felt like a game that just spiraled out of control. Then we followed that one with a win. The loss in San Fran was a foregone conclusion and at least they were still in the game in the fourth quarter. At that point I was still holding out some hope, but I really felt the Seattle game (especially with the extra rest) had to be a strong performance. And it was the exact opposite. That game really defined the season for me.

I agree with you entirely.  After that game it cut through my denial that the Giants are a bad football team.  The Dallas game was a red flag but with the shortened preseason and all the disastrous opening night games against Dallas in the past I gave them a mulligan.  After the first half of the AZ game, I thought wow this is going to be a long season but then they won and put me right back into denial.  The SF game echoed Dallas where it seemed like if they needed to pass the ball it was going to fail, to the point I wondered why should they bother? Was that feeling caused by them playing another great defense or their OL being bad or QB decisions or play calling or some combo of all?

After the Seattle game I felt the Giants could not win a game without Barkley and Thomas and once they returned, they needed to focus on keeping games close from clock eating running plays and give themselves a 50/50 chance in the 4th quarter.  It also had me reflect on last season and conclude Barkley was the reason for their success and Jones' contract extension.  Jones does well in a running system with a good deep ball late in games and depending on a great defense.  The team failed for a number of reasons when they put the offense on Jones to deliver.  When the Giants were in a passing situation, pre-snap it felt inevitable that the play would be an ugly sack, an awkward scramble, a throw short of the 1st down marker, or an interception.  The team seemed hopeless until Barkley returned. The season seemed lost and became more evaluating what was happening rather than playoff hopes after Seattle.

At least for the Bills, Washington, and Jets games I enjoyed watching the entire games up until the last few seconds.  I couldn't say that about any of preceding five games (AZ was not four quarters of thrilling football).  They were good games because they avoided placing themselves in obvious passing situations or would just run during them anyway.  It also gave us a chance to evaluate the team without Jones until Taylor got hurt (it's not fair to anyone to expect anything from Devito).

I'm now watching to see which players give their best under terrible circumstances and thinking about future seasons rather than any sort of playoff hopes this year.  I watch for the competitive spirit and people working together to put their best effort forward.  There are so many circumstances outside of our control but giving up is a choice.  Quitting is contagious and if the team quits I'll quit watching.  I don't think the team is far away from being competitive next season as it seems at the moment.

The Defense has played and can play at an elite level, how can they sustain an elite level for all of next season?  They have to cut down on their snap counts and rotate Dex more often and let their depth develop this season.  Dex is going to be under more pressure this season without Williams going forward.  Williams was a free agent anyway so hopefully they can find another DL with their newly acquired 2nd rounder to complement Dex.  With Dex's contract, a rookie is the way to go align beside him.  Re-signing Jackson or Mckinney in the off season is a big decision point.  I don't think they get lucky finding a starting outside CB after the first round but might get lucky on a safety so I'm leaning towards Jackson or another FA at CB.  Banks and Flot have been homeruns this year and this has to be the best linebacker play we've seen since their super bowl teams, right?  Ojulari's injuries were a bad draw (there were concerns over his knee that may have pushed him to the 2nd round and at that point was a gamble that didn't pan out).  Even if he was healthy he should have been in for passing situations only rather than when opposing offenses had 50/50 run or pass odds.  I think lack of depth at the outside position opposite Thibodeaux is why he lined up on the DL on first downs.     

Barkley can take on the full attention of a defense and single handily give the offense hope on any given drive.  Signing him gives the Giants a chance of being competitive in any game as long as the Defense remains elite and the QB doesn't turn the ball over.  They have to watch his snap count though.  Jones being a running quarterback with a good arm but having sustained two significant neck injuries and a torn ACL is obviously not the answer for the team next season.  I think they take the best available rookie QB and sign a veteran free agent QB whose play style most closely resembles the strengths of the rookie they select.  They'll need to add complementary players to Barkley such as more run block first TEs, good run blocking IOL, and another starting quality back to get his snap count much lower then it has been.  Hyatt and Robinson are good.  Maybe they can sign a possession type of outside WR to line up opposite of Hyatt and is a relatively great run blocker for the position?

In sum, the Giants were a legitimate playoff team last year that ran out of steam once the super high snap counts wore down their defense and Barkley ahead of a fresh Philly team.  They can get back to that state by sustaining the defense with a high draft pick IDL, a FA outside CB whose contract expires once Banks is eligible, and maybe some luck late in the draft with safeties and edge rushers.  They'll need an offense that can give them a rest, which a Barkley driven offense can do as long as he has another quality starting caliber RB teammate to shoulder the snap count and a couple of running blocking focused additions to IOL and TE.  A veteran QB can helm the ship until the rookie is ready.  They don't have to pretend to be the greatest show on turf next season, they just need to start winning ugly games again like they did in 2022.  They have most of the ingredients, they just need to return to the formula.  If they end up with a special QB, they can tailor the offense around his talents after next season when they'll have a better understanding of what types of players will be best complement him.             

FA: a #2 CB, Barkley, vet QB, a blocking TE, a #2/3 possession outside WR.  None of these moves will put a ton of pressure on the cap.  Barkley won't be cheap, but a very expensive RB is going to be much cheaper than a very expensive WR contract and probably not much more than his current annual rate.  The CB and WR additions can be towards then end of their careers rather than in their primes and TEs are a low-cost FA position.  The QB would be a post-draft signing, which aren't typically high priced in a bidding battle. 

Draft:
Rd 1 QB
Rd 2 IDL, OL
Rd 3 RB
Rd 4 TE or S
Rd 5-7 hope they get lucky

I think the above pathway can get them back to the playoffs next season and give their rookie QB a good situation to develop in. 




           

Quote from: Quick Kick on October 30, 2023, 11:24:14 AMI think the Giants should have let the Jets have the ball first in OT. 
My reasoning is they were not going to score a TD on their first possession to win and the D was playing well enough to get a stop if the Jets got the ball.  Now all the Giants needed was a FG to win.
Why give it to your offense who was unable to move the ball.  Give it to your defense get a stop, get back momentum and hope for a FG. A 3 and out by the Offense just gives the Jets mo and deflates the D.

I was thinking this too.

The best I could come up with for a reason was to give the defense a rest after the Jets drive but it just doesn't right.  Has Daboll commented on it yet?  Seemed very obvious for them to kick the ball in that situation.

Quote from: Leek21 on October 29, 2023, 04:31:08 PMDaboll went way too conservative.  Let the kid throw.

I disagree.  This game and the Buffalo game came down to the wire because of run calls and giving their outstanding defense a chance to win them games.  They came within a yard in both of those losses.  The offense is really terrible right now, if they called more passes in today's weather they would have been blown out. 

Going forward, this style won't hold up without having another good starting caliber RB rotate with Barkley and additional TEs that can run block and catch.  Taylor and Jones (last season) complemented Barkley as second running backs.  I don't know where they go from here, maybe there are some more Free Agents with fresh legs who can help?  They should probably keep Pugh in the starting lineup and just play six OL every snap.  They should start rotating Williams, Lawrence, and Thibodeaux out more often, so they don't burn out this season either.  It's a shame how it all came undone this season with the Defense being such a bright spot.   

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 29, 2023, 02:16:54 PMExactly.

That was Judge-esque by Daboll. Literally. Hard to watch.

At the time I thought it made sense for Gano to kick it there but I didn't know he was injured.  On a wet field why rely on an injured specialist to finish the game? 

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 26, 2023, 04:57:39 PMHis ego and posse killed his career. Too much success too soon. TC never reigned him in.

I'm not going to stop blaming the Giants offensive line and them ignoring Ramczyk and Whitworth the offseason before OBJ got hurt.  At the time we blamed Manning rushing his throw high while under duress.  If the Giants had acquired either of those tackles ahead of the 2017, I bet Manning would have gotten one more ring or close to it.  OBJ was unstoppable until that injury.