Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 04:31:39 AMYes he would! He would be the same Patrick during SB against TB, when he was hitting WR/TE 30 yards downfield from a horizontal position, playing behind an atrocious oline.  Was there any doubt he was the best player on the field that evening?  You simply can't hide that type of talent! The same was true for Joe Burrow, playing behind an Oline that allowed an NFL high 19-sacks during their playoff run. You can throw-in Herberts record-breaking rookie season behind the NFL #32 ranked oline.  I could go on-and-on about QBs who still produced playing behind terrible lines in the modern era.  To be clear, I freely admit the W/L will be impacted; however, a QB can still produce and showcase unique abilities playing behind below-avg OLs.  To date, DJ has done neither... 

You can't cite just one game and conclude a player would play at a high level under those conditions always.  That is simply not statistically reasonable to use a 1 game sample.

I agree he played well in that game.  However let's see him get sacked 60 times in a 17 game season and instead of getting sacked every 15 - 18 times he throws the ball, he gets sacked every 5-6 times he throws the ball.  What will happen? 

He will start to get very frustrated he is getting hit that much and that frustration will boil over to his teammates making him do things he would not normally do like throw and duck to avoid a more painful hit or look toward the pressure for a split second more and not at his WR making a break so he won't have as good a feel for the rhythm of the route.  Will he do better than Daniel Jones?  Yes.  Will he do as well as a typical Mahommes season of getting sacked under 30 times per season?  No way.

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 04:17:36 AMThe implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 04:17:36 AMThe implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 04:17:36 AMThe implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

Let's use number of sacks as that is a better measurement.

2023 - Daniel Jones - played in 6 games, sacked 30 times, 160 pass attempts so was sacked once every 5.33 pass attempts.

2020 - Justin Herbert - played in 15 games, sacked only 32 times, 595 pass attempts so was sacked once every 18.6 pass attempts.

2021 - Tua - played in 13 games, sacked only 20 times, 388 pass attempts so was sacked once every 19.4 pass attempts.

2023 - Geno Smith - played in 15 games, sacked only 31 times, 499 pass attempts so sacked once every 16.1 pass attempts.

Kyler Murray - played in only 8 games, sacked only 18 times, 268 pass attempts so sacked once every 14.9 pass attempts.

These QBs you cite were not getting pressured at anything remotely close to what DJ endured.  Sacked every 5.33 attempts versus 14 - 19 attempts is statistically very meaningful and very different.  Your comparison is not remotely reasonable.  I am not saying DJ is a good QB or as good as the QBs you cite.   

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 07:56:44 AMThis is what happens when you only look at part of the issue


Here are the full rankings (there is no OC/HC rankings so admittedly we are still looking at just 2 of the three pillars)

2020 Chargers  Pass-Blocking- 30th  Receiving 12th  QBR 13th

2021 Dolphins  Pass-Blocking- 32nd  Receiving 18th  QBR 18th NOTE- lack of protection injured QB 

2023 Seahawks  Pass-Blocking- 28th  Receiving 7th  QBR 14th

2023 Cards  Pass-Blocking- 17th  Receiving 27th  QBR 22nd


This is why you should always look at the whole picture rather than select pieces.  If you want an accurate picture you need to be systematic and complete in one's examination

The OP provided the aggregate ratings of the olines, I responded in kind.

I have to say that Dominiqui was bold in challenging former GM Mike Tannenbaum, but clearly, the NFL has a serious problem drafting QB.  I think Foxworthy is addressing the blind spot of so many in the NFL in terms of not appreciating that QBs need the proper environment to develop.  Either the NFL can't scout a QB to save their lives or their is the flaw Foxworthy pointed to, that is causing well scouting QBs to fail.


https://x.com/FirstTake/status/1781351256490905935

Quote from: Bob In PA on Today at 07:56:36 AMThat type of analysis fails to consider that it is a team sport. 

The ratings of each player failure to take into account the other players with whom they play.  They can't just be added together to get a final total.

A team is like a car motor. Every part must perform (and fit with the other parts) according to specifications or the engine (team) will not run efficiently.

Bob

Bob,

As you know, I like to play with analytics myself.  Still, no matter how good a system sounds (or perhaps sounds flawed), I tend to step back and look how accurate the results look after all is said and done.

Here are the top 7 talented rosters per this author and his measures:

1. San Francisco 49ers
2. Kansas City Chiefs
3. Baltimore Ravens
4. Buffalo Bills
5. Philadelphia Eagles
6. Detroit Lions
7. Dallas Cowboys

With the possible exceptions of the Bills this seems to be a pretty reasonable ranking of roster talent (at least in my assessment)

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 04:17:36 AMThe implicit notion of this thread suggest a QB is powerless to produce tangible passing metrics without an average, to above average Oline.  To test this theory, let's review the olines worse than our Giants:

 - 2020 ranked 31st
  --LAC #32 Herbert 4336 YDs 31 TDs 10 INTs 67% 98.3 RTG *Won ROY *Mult Rookie passing records
- 2021 ranked 30th
  --MIA #32 Tua 3758 YDs 16 TDs 10 INTs 68% 90.1 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 12 games)
- 2023 ranked 30th
  --SEA #31 Smith 3624 YDs 20 TDs 9 INTs 65% 92.1 RTG (Only Played 15 games) *Selected to Pro Bowl
  --ARZ #32 Murray 3822 YDs 21 TDs 7 INTs 66% 89.4 RTG (Based on 17 game projection; only started 8 games) *came back from more than 10 month injury.

From this data, we can glean that successful QBs can still produce, regardless of inferior lines.  So, what does this tell us about DJ?  Nothing! We already know DJ does not possess the organic attributes of a superior passer; he never has, and never will.  Will his performance improve with a better OLine...absolutely! However, even when provided with average lines, with a superior RB, he still produced a bottom 5 passing offense. He clearly doesn't have the qualities to lead a top-tier passing offence, which is critical to winning SBs in the modern era.  We need to move on; I suspect the Giants feel the same. 

This is what happens when you only look at part of the issue


Here are the full rankings (there is no OC/HC rankings so admittedly we are still looking at just 2 of the three pillars)

2020 Chargers  Pass-Blocking- 30th  Receiving 12th  QBR 13th

2021 Dolphins  Pass-Blocking- 32nd  Receiving 18th  QBR 18th NOTE- lack of protection injured QB 

2023 Seahawks  Pass-Blocking- 28th  Receiving 7th  QBR 14th

2023 Cards  Pass-Blocking- 17th  Receiving 27th  QBR 22nd


This is why you should always look at the whole picture rather than select pieces.  If you want an accurate picture you need to be systematic and complete in one's examination

That type of analysis fails to consider that it is a team sport. 

The ratings of each player failure to take into account the other players with whom they play.  They can't just be added together to get a final total.

A team is like a car motor. Every part must perform (and fit with the other parts) according to specifications or the engine (team) will not run efficiently.

Bob

Strands #48
"Walk this way"
🔵🔵🔵🟡
🔵🔵🔵🔵

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 19, 2024, 02:27:25 PMThe other thing that struck me is that Jones has never had the opportunity to work with an offensive line that was in the top half (not top third, just half) of the league.  Talk about being in an unappealing position.

... or an elite NFL WR. Bob