Big Blue Huddle

General Category => The Front Porch => Topic started by: Giant Obsession on September 07, 2016, 10:27:03 PM

Title: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Giant Obsession on September 07, 2016, 10:27:03 PM
...for the game."

Granted I am an unabashed Torts lover, but you never have to wonder when he communicates.  Seldom deals in "coachspeak" and is not afraid to voice his feelings.

In my world of sports Torts is the man.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/17487174/us-world-cup-coach-john-tortorella-stands-anthem-comments (http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/17487174/us-world-cup-coach-john-tortorella-stands-anthem-comments)
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Messiah717 on September 07, 2016, 10:34:46 PM
In this world of political correctness Torts is 100% correct. When you put a uniform on you're representing a team and in this case a country.  What you do on your own time is your own business.  March and stand up for whatever cause you're passionate about.  What you don't do is make the team all about you.  Especially, when you're getting paid to represent that team and play a game. 
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Jaime on September 07, 2016, 11:22:14 PM
About friggin time some people start to sound off in opposition of this clown that's disrespecting our National Anthem. :boooo:

Still haven't seen a copy of the million-dollar check that Kapernick is supposed to be writing for some organization somewhere? :-??
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: worf49 on September 08, 2016, 12:33:20 AM
Management needs to show some backbone and let them know either you stand when the National anthem is playing or you will sit.,
If you are not winning games and you are sitting futility will soon set in.

No reason the NFL has to bow to this dumb ass jock who could not legitimately enter U of Nevada because of his poor academic record.

I taught Computer Technology at college level for 20 years. Most of the athletes were freaking simpletons!

When I say simpletons I mean they did not have a basic grasp of Standard American English, although they grew up in America.

Beyond addition and subtraction math did not exist.

Trying to teaching them the Excel Spreadsheet Program was a venture into the abyss.

Yet this AH is making millions for being a mediocre QB at the pro level.

You got a problem with America find a better deal elsewhere.

OK, that is my 2 cents!


Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 08:38:18 AM
"The Courage of Colin Kaepernick" by Michael Eric Dyson

http://theundefeated.com/features/the-courage-of-colin-kaepernick/ (http://theundefeated.com/features/the-courage-of-colin-kaepernick/)

Quote
The opposition to Kaepernick rests on a faulty premise and a confusion of terms: Many who oppose Kaepernick because of patriotism are really opposing him because of nationalism. There is a big difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism is the uncritical celebration of one’s nation regardless of its moral or political virtue. It is summarized in the saying, “My country right or wrong.” If one has a problem with America, one is told to lump it or leave it, or to find another country that works better.

Nationalism is a harmful belief that can lead a country down a dangerous spiral of arrogance, or off the precipice of political narcissism. Nationalism harbors the belief that no matter what one’s country does, it must be supported. If a nation practices racism, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia or the like, it must be celebrated and accepted at all costs. Patriotism is a bigger, more uplifting virtue. Patriotism is the belief in the best values of one’s country, and the pursuit of the best means to realize those values. If the nation strays, then it must be corrected. The patriot is the person who, spotting the need for change, says so clearly and loudly, without hate or rancor. The nationalist is the person who spurns such correction and would rather take refuge in bigotry than fight it. It is the nationalists who wrap themselves in a flag and loudly proclaim themselves as patriots.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Ed Vette on September 08, 2016, 08:58:28 AM
The Constitution gives him the right to act accordingly. The NFL and the Team have no rules or restrictions in place to enforce standing for the anthem and the flag. However, the issue most people have is the venue he chose to voice his protest. They too have every right to express their opinions and dissatisfaction according to their rights in the Constitution.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Little Giant on September 08, 2016, 09:25:47 AM
All i will say is many stood up and sacrificed so he could sit!!!
I will keep any other thoughts to myself
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jerseyguy on September 08, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Management needs to show some backbone and let them know either you stand when the National anthem is playing or you will sit.,
If you are not winning games and you are sitting futility will soon set in.

No reason the NFL has to bow to this dumb ass jock who could not legitimately enter U of Nevada because of his poor academic record.

I taught Computer Technology at college level for 20 years. Most of the athletes were freaking simpletons!

When I say simpletons I mean they did not have a basic grasp of Standard American English, although they grew up in America.

Beyond addition and subtraction math did not exist.

Trying to teaching them the Excel Spreadsheet Program was a venture into the abyss.

Yet this AH is making millions for being a mediocre QB at the pro level.

You got a problem with America find a better deal elsewhere.

OK, that is my 2 cents!


this says it for me too...
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: katkavage on September 08, 2016, 11:52:34 AM
I'm cynical about CK's motives here, but he has every right to do what he has been doing just as those who thank Jesus for helping them score that touchdown or hit that home run or point to the heavens after every catch or hit have the right to do the same. That CK can kneel in protest during the National Anthem is what makes this country so great.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: finnref on September 08, 2016, 12:36:37 PM
What is his motive? Read the following. If you think it is too long. Just read the last paragraph.

TO KAPERNICK FROM RETIRED U.S. ARMY LT. COL. ALLEN WEST...........REMARKABLE SPEECH...................

Message from a non-oppressed black man to Colin Kaepernick…

By Allen West1:44pm August 28, 2016

If there’s one thing I live for, it’s football season, especially college. Saturday night I was enjoying a fantastic game between Charleston Southern University and North Dakota State University. The game went into overtime and ended with the Bison of NDSU winning 24-17. However, as I watched this thrilling game, it was an item on the ESPN news ticker that disturbed me — to which I see a need to respond to this “teachable moment.”

As reported yesterday, San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick refused to stand for the National Anthem in Friday’s pre-season game against Green Bay because he was protesting “black oppression” in the United States. The Niners went on to lose.

The NFL issued a statement that said players are encouraged but not required to stand for the national anthem. Hmm, this is the same NFL that refused to allow the Dallas Cowboys to wear a helmet decal in honor of the fallen Dallas Police officers gunned down on Thursday July 7th.

This is the same NFL that said nothing when players from the St. Louis Cardinals displayed the false narrative symbol of “hands up, dont shoot” — which we know didn’t happen. I find it rather interesting that the NFL has no issue disrespecting law enforcement officers but only “encourages” players to respect the symbol of our nation, the American flag, and our anthem, the Star Spangled Banner.

However, I would recommend a simple scripture from the wise King Solomon for Mr. Kaepernick, Proverbs 17:28 (NIV): “Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.”

Or, as the old folks down South would say, “best for a stupid person to keep their mouth shut and not open it and let everyone know they are.”

Mr. Kaepernick, a bi-racial young man adopted and raised by white parents, claims America is oppressing blacks at a time when we have a black, bi racial president who was twice elected. We’ve had two black attorneys general and currently have a black secretary of homeland security, along with a black national security advisor. Here in Dallas our police chief, whom I know, is an outstanding black leader. The officer in Milwaukee who shot the armed assailant after issuing an order to drop his weapon was black. Is Mr. Kaepernick following suit and cherry-picking what he terms “oppression?” First of all, let me clarify to you sir, you are a multi-millionaire “one-percenter” just because you can throw a ball and kiss your biceps. Men like Jesse Owens, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, Oscar Robertson, Ernie Davis, and Bernard King and Condredge Halloway of my alma mater were athletes who knew of oppression. You sir may certainly have the right to sit upon your “fourth point of contact” when the National Anthem is played but never forget, you live in a nation that has provided you the privilege to have that right.

My story is one I wish to share. My dad was a corporal in the U.S. Army and served during World War II. He was born in 1920 and knew oppression. Yet, when he sat me down on the steps of our home, 651 Kennesaw Ave NE in Atlanta, he shared with me that there was no greater honor or privilege, than to wear the uniform of these United States. Perhaps that ‘s why his first and middle sons, along with his grandson, are all U.S. combat veterans, just like Dad. Herman West Sr. was not a victim, and he raised men who would never allow anyone to suppress or oppress them. Perhaps you should stop trying to make victims and admonish people, black people, to be victors — try it, and you may find that more satisfying than your insidious action and word vomiting.

If you want to know about oppression of blacks in America, past and present, how about you ask Rep. Nancy Pelosi of the San Fran Bay Area about the policies that decimated the black family? Maybe you can cross the Bay over to Oakland and ask Rep. Barbara Lee about the 13 to15 million black babies killed since 1973, and ask her who is Margaret Sanger?

Or perhaps you can ask the two California senators, Boxer and Feinstein, about who doesn’t support better education opportunities for black children in the inner cities — school choice, vouchers, charter schools, home schooling.

Perhaps you didn’t know Barack Obama was the one who cancelled the DC school voucher program for deserving young black children — talk about oppression. Is that something you’re willing to do, or is it just too difficult?

You should look at who’s been controlling the communities and cities where blacks live. This isn’t not about what America has done; it’s about what a certain group, a political party has done. And your somewhat backhanded comment towards our law enforcement officers — well, wonder how many times San Francisco PD has protected you?

Here is the deal young man. My recommendation is that you apologize. Be a stand up fella and admit you made a very stupid comment. Humbly state that you do realize how very special this country is and the opportunities it has afforded you — and many others. You should take that stand and apologize to all of those who are currently serving in our Armed Forces and those veterans who’ve been willing to make that last full measure of devotion. You see, when the National Anthem is played, it has a very special meaning to us — maybe you should take a hiatus and go over to Helmand Province in Afghanistan and spend a week and understand why. Go over and throw a football with the men and women who enable you to earn those millions of dollars.

The American flag has a very touching meaning for those of us for whom it will drape our coffin — as it was for my Dad…and it will be for me. That song defines who we are as a proud and exceptional people. This is a land where so many dream of coming to and earning the title of American. Your actions were shameful, disgusting, despicable and disrespectful.

You do have a right and a freedom of expression. But know, there are consequences to your ignorant action, which is what it was.

When the National Anthem is played, I salute because I am a black man born and raised in the inner city afforded the opportunity for greatness in my own right. May you seek God’s forgiveness and find humility, because we, the people are not going to forget what you did and said.

THIS MIGHT EXPLAIN SOME OF HIS ACTIONS.....

The media won't tell us this. Turns out Kaepernick is engaged to a Muslim woman who is a BLM activist. In the off season he converted to Islam. She appears to be radicalizing him by looking at his Instagram and other accounts. He is a VERY angry man and should be watched. His actions now are making sense!!
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 08, 2016, 12:42:28 PM
As I said on another thread, the media is exploiting this beyond my capacity to stomach it. Would anyone of us even know what Kaepernick was doing, and why, it if not for the media blowing it completely out of proportion? The answer is easy and it is "NO". It is a non violent protest. Whether we agree with him, or not, whether his motives are pure, or not, we should all embrace the concept of non violent protest. That is one of our greatest freedoms and the moment we say that citizens HAVE TO stand during the National Anthem or face punishment, then we are no longer free. Those of us that study history, and there are many of us here, know all too well that the "adoring crowds" that greeted Stalin, Hitler, and Mao did so under the threat of death. Sure, there were zealots that embraced the tyrants, but there were countless others that did what they did so their children would not be taken away from them, their wives would not be raped and murdered, and they would not die a slow death in a forced labor camp. We all know that's NOT patriotism. That's tyranny putting on a show while you have a gun to your head. I would rather live in a country where half the population sat during the National Anthem than one where there was 100% participation because it was made mandatory. It's very easy to tell between the two which is the country where people are free. And with that, may I never hear of Colin Kaepernick again.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 01:02:19 PM
What is his motive? Read the following. If you think it is too long. Just read the last paragraph.

TO KAPERNICK FROM RETIRED U.S. ARMY LT. COL. ALLEN WEST...........REMARKABLE SPEECH...................

Message from a non-oppressed black man to Colin Kaepernick…

By Allen West1:44pm August 28, 2016

If there’s one thing I live for, it’s football season, especially college. Saturday night I was enjoying a fantastic game between Charleston Southern University and North Dakota State University. The game went into overtime and ended with the Bison of NDSU winning 24-17. However, as I watched this thrilling game, it was an item on the ESPN news ticker that disturbed me — to which I see a need to respond to this “teachable moment.”

As reported yesterday, San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick refused to stand for the National Anthem in Friday’s pre-season game against Green Bay because he was protesting “black oppression” in the United States. The Niners went on to lose.

The NFL issued a statement that said players are encouraged but not required to stand for the national anthem. Hmm, this is the same NFL that refused to allow the Dallas Cowboys to wear a helmet decal in honor of the fallen Dallas Police officers gunned down on Thursday July 7th.

This is the same NFL that said nothing when players from the St. Louis Cardinals displayed the false narrative symbol of “hands up, dont shoot” — which we know didn’t happen. I find it rather interesting that the NFL has no issue disrespecting law enforcement officers but only “encourages” players to respect the symbol of our nation, the American flag, and our anthem, the Star Spangled Banner.

However, I would recommend a simple scripture from the wise King Solomon for Mr. Kaepernick, Proverbs 17:28 (NIV): “Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.”

Or, as the old folks down South would say, “best for a stupid person to keep their mouth shut and not open it and let everyone know they are.”

Mr. Kaepernick, a bi-racial young man adopted and raised by white parents, claims America is oppressing blacks at a time when we have a black, bi racial president who was twice elected. We’ve had two black attorneys general and currently have a black secretary of homeland security, along with a black national security advisor. Here in Dallas our police chief, whom I know, is an outstanding black leader. The officer in Milwaukee who shot the armed assailant after issuing an order to drop his weapon was black. Is Mr. Kaepernick following suit and cherry-picking what he terms “oppression?” First of all, let me clarify to you sir, you are a multi-millionaire “one-percenter” just because you can throw a ball and kiss your biceps. Men like Jesse Owens, Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, Oscar Robertson, Ernie Davis, and Bernard King and Condredge Halloway of my alma mater were athletes who knew of oppression. You sir may certainly have the right to sit upon your “fourth point of contact” when the National Anthem is played but never forget, you live in a nation that has provided you the privilege to have that right.

My story is one I wish to share. My dad was a corporal in the U.S. Army and served during World War II. He was born in 1920 and knew oppression. Yet, when he sat me down on the steps of our home, 651 Kennesaw Ave NE in Atlanta, he shared with me that there was no greater honor or privilege, than to wear the uniform of these United States. Perhaps that ‘s why his first and middle sons, along with his grandson, are all U.S. combat veterans, just like Dad. Herman West Sr. was not a victim, and he raised men who would never allow anyone to suppress or oppress them. Perhaps you should stop trying to make victims and admonish people, black people, to be victors — try it, and you may find that more satisfying than your insidious action and word vomiting.

If you want to know about oppression of blacks in America, past and present, how about you ask Rep. Nancy Pelosi of the San Fran Bay Area about the policies that decimated the black family? Maybe you can cross the Bay over to Oakland and ask Rep. Barbara Lee about the 13 to15 million black babies killed since 1973, and ask her who is Margaret Sanger?

Or perhaps you can ask the two California senators, Boxer and Feinstein, about who doesn’t support better education opportunities for black children in the inner cities — school choice, vouchers, charter schools, home schooling.

Perhaps you didn’t know Barack Obama was the one who cancelled the DC school voucher program for deserving young black children — talk about oppression. Is that something you’re willing to do, or is it just too difficult?

You should look at who’s been controlling the communities and cities where blacks live. This isn’t not about what America has done; it’s about what a certain group, a political party has done. And your somewhat backhanded comment towards our law enforcement officers — well, wonder how many times San Francisco PD has protected you?

Here is the deal young man. My recommendation is that you apologize. Be a stand up fella and admit you made a very stupid comment. Humbly state that you do realize how very special this country is and the opportunities it has afforded you — and many others. You should take that stand and apologize to all of those who are currently serving in our Armed Forces and those veterans who’ve been willing to make that last full measure of devotion. You see, when the National Anthem is played, it has a very special meaning to us — maybe you should take a hiatus and go over to Helmand Province in Afghanistan and spend a week and understand why. Go over and throw a football with the men and women who enable you to earn those millions of dollars.

The American flag has a very touching meaning for those of us for whom it will drape our coffin — as it was for my Dad…and it will be for me. That song defines who we are as a proud and exceptional people. This is a land where so many dream of coming to and earning the title of American. Your actions were shameful, disgusting, despicable and disrespectful.

You do have a right and a freedom of expression. But know, there are consequences to your ignorant action, which is what it was.

When the National Anthem is played, I salute because I am a black man born and raised in the inner city afforded the opportunity for greatness in my own right. May you seek God’s forgiveness and find humility, because we, the people are not going to forget what you did and said.

THIS MIGHT EXPLAIN SOME OF HIS ACTIONS.....

The media won't tell us this. Turns out Kaepernick is engaged to a Muslim woman who is a BLM activist. In the off season he converted to Islam. She appears to be radicalizing him by looking at his Instagram and other accounts. He is a VERY angry man and should be watched. His actions now are making sense!!

Wow. I just don't even know where to begin.

Paranoia. Jingoism. Stereotypes. Misinformation.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jimv on September 08, 2016, 01:33:47 PM
Wow. I just don't even know where to begin.

Paranoia. Jingoism. Stereotypes. Misinformation.


Matt, it's none of the above.  It's just another man exercising his freedom of speech in explaining his interpretation of CK's actions.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 01:43:49 PM
I didn't question his right to say these things, Jim. I question the accuracy of his statements. This is what freedom of speech is about...getting people's views out in the open so they can be discussed people can better understand each other.

I'm a historian, a human rights activist, and a teacher, Jim. This us what I do. I check facts and I challenge ignorance.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Fla-Gman on September 08, 2016, 01:54:45 PM
I didn't question his right to say these things, Jim. I question the accuracy of his statements. This is what freedom of speech is about...getting people's views out in the open so they can be discussed people can better understand each other.

I'm a historian, a human rights activist, and a teacher, Jim. This us what I do. I check facts and I challenge ignorance.
As I'm sure would be done with the statements made by Kaepernick, who is perpetuating a patently false narrative created by BLM.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 02:13:12 PM
As I'm sure would be done with the statements made by Kaepernick, who is perpetuating a patently false narrative created by BLM.

"Patently false"? Can you site a source? Have you been to BLM's website? Have you spoken with a member? Have you attended a meeting? Do you really know anything about that organization? Or are you just parroting a phrase from a source that opposes BLM without doing addition investigation?

I know you can't read my tone here, but I am not saying these things in anger. I am challenging you on how you formed these opinions. And yes, I would be doing the same thing at a BLM meeting. 
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jimv on September 08, 2016, 02:28:05 PM
I didn't question his right to say these things, Jim. I question the accuracy of his statements. This is what freedom of speech is about...getting people's views out in the open so they can be discussed people can better understand each other.

I'm a historian, a human rights activist, and a teacher, Jim. This us what I do. I check facts and I challenge ignorance.


I don't want to start an argument, Matt.   But, you gave me your personal bona fides, so I'll give you mine.  I'm an educated man with a Masters Degree.  I know more history than many people I know.  I'm a retired Colonel in the USAF and I'm a retired National Weather Service Area Manager.  I'll put my knowledge against yours any day of the week.  Having said that, I find nothing that West said that implies ignorance on his part.  Please don't make this thread something more than it is.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: bamagiantfan on September 08, 2016, 02:50:04 PM
Kapernick has the right but it simply isn't good politics. The cause he is trying to promote has become lost in the tidal wave of responses to the way in which he has tried to draw attention to it.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: katkavage on September 08, 2016, 03:11:48 PM
Kapernick has the right but it simply isn't good politics. The cause he is trying to promote has become lost in the tidal wave of responses to the way in which he has tried to draw attention to it.
The bottom line is that he has the right to do what he is doing. You may not like that he is doing, just as I don't like fans doing the wave at games, players showboating after first downs and then preaching about the Lord blessing them and their team to victory. It is his/their right and I'll have to live with it. There are much more important things to concern us.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Rambo89 on September 08, 2016, 03:14:14 PM
Little different when you are playing for Team USA rather than a professional league.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 03:20:15 PM

I don't want to start an argument, Matt.   But, you gave me your personal bona fides, so I'll give you mine.  I'm an educated man with a Masters Degree.  I know more history than many people I know.  I'm a retired Colonel in the USAF and I'm a retired National Weather Service Area Manager.  I'll put my knowledge against yours any day of the week.  Having said that, I find nothing that West said that implies ignorance on his part.  Please don't make this thread something more than it is.

Jim, I already knew those things about you. We have been posting together on this and the old Inside Football message board for over ten years. I feel like I know you, at least a little bit, even if I haven't seemed to make much of an impression on your memory. I'm happy to debate any topic you want. I think you are confusing my disagreement with some of the assumptions and statements being made here with a desire to cause trouble or be argumentative. It's not that at all.

I took a six month break earlier this year because of another thread on this forum in which I disagreed with a premise in which so many of you agreed. I felt badly that I had "caused trouble." The reality is that it is OK for me to disagree with you, or with Finnref, or with anyone here.

I have not started one thread about Kaepernick. I come here to talk about the Giants and football, and I do so with a spirit of openmindedness, camaraderie, and respect for everyone here. Yet I see thread after thread posted where members of this board express the same negative opinions over and over, and like each other's posts, and agree with statements such as the one that started this one -- that if athletes don't stand for the anthem, they shouldn't play. I disagree with that, even though I know I am in the minority here. Just because you don't like my opinion or would rather I didn't voice it doesn't mean that I have wronged you or anyone else.

I took the time to read and respond thoughtfully to the OP and the speech from the retired Colonel. I have taken the time to read and consider every anti-Kaepernick post on BBH in the past few weeks. No one has responded to any of the articles I have posted on those threads. Perhaps you don't view these threads as confrontational because they are in line with your own views? You may think BBH shouldn't be a place where people discuss "politics," and I largely agree. But when people take it upon themselves to come here and sound off with statements that I disagree with, think are inaccurate, or reflect prejudice or lack of empathy for other human beings, I will respond. And I will do so with a tone of respect and attempt to understand other people's points of view. Do you care to understand mine?

Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: JimboWHO on September 08, 2016, 03:39:57 PM

I don't want to start an argument, Matt.   But, you gave me your personal bona fides, so I'll give you mine.  I'm an educated man with a Masters Degree.  I know more history than many people I know.  I'm a retired Colonel in the USAF and I'm a retired National Weather Service Area Manager.  I'll put my knowledge against yours any day of the week.  Having said that, I find nothing that West said that implies ignorance on his part.  Please don't make this thread something more than it is.

Excellent post.

Matt, you know I respect you and your opinion but with regard to you saying that you "...challenge ignorance" - doesn't that suggest an air of superiority and isn't it totally dismissive of opinions other than yours?

The BLM movement was founded on a lie (Hands up don't shoot).  I believe that is a fact.  But if you disagree I'm not gonna say your view is ignorant or worthless.


JJM
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Suburbanites II on September 08, 2016, 03:40:50 PM
I'm going to get pilloried here but what the heck.....I'm just curious, what kid from Duluth Minnesota or Grand Forks ND is Torts worried about? I'm in no way supporting Kaepernick but it seems to me Torts is um, kinda grandstanding here in that he's taking a position on something that's not even a remote possibility of happening. Now if someone asked Torts what he'd do if he was Chip Kelly and he replied by saying he'd bench Kaepernick I'd give him props for candor. But taking the mic to inform the world that his team has been warned about something they didn't need to be warned about seems pretty disingenuous to me. That's like saying if the President calls me tonight I'm going to tell him off, that's swell but not going to happen so who cares?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 08, 2016, 04:01:16 PM
I'm going to get pilloried here but what the heck.....I'm just curious, what kid from Duluth Minnesota or Grand Forks ND is Torts worried about? I'm in no way supporting Kaepernick but it seems to me Torts is um, kinda grandstanding here in that he's taking a position on something that's not even a remote possibility of happening. Now if someone asked Torts what he'd do if he was Chip Kelly and he replied by saying he'd bench Kaepernick I'd give him props for candor. But taking the mic to inform the world that his team has been warned about something they didn't need to be warned about seems pretty disingenuous to me. That's like saying if the President calls me tonight I'm going to tell him off, that's swell but not going to happen so who cares?

Spot on.  =D>
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Fla-Gman on September 08, 2016, 04:05:00 PM
"Patently false"? Can you site a source? Have you been to BLM's website? Have you spoken with a member? Have you attended a meeting? Do you really know anything about that organization? Or are you just parroting a phrase from a source that opposes BLM without doing addition investigation?

I know you can't read my tone here, but I am not saying these things in anger. I am challenging you on how you formed these opinions. And yes, I would be doing the same thing at a BLM meeting.
No, but I can go to the FBI website and look at the statistics and draw conclusions that are contrary to BLM claims. their narrative ignores the real issues in the black community and it isn't police brutality. When the homicide rate of black on black is 97% but all they want to protest is the 1% of police related shootings in my opinion the narrative is false. While I am not ignorant to failing of law enforcement having been in the profession for 28 years I will agree with Sherrif David Clarke when he says stop trying to fix the police and start fixing the ghetto.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 08, 2016, 04:20:57 PM
Excellent post.

Matt, you know I respect you and your opinion but with regard to you saying that you "...challenge ignorance" - doesn't that suggest an air of superiority and isn't it totally dismissive of opinions other than yours?

The BLM movement was founded on a lie (Hands up don't shoot).  I believe that is a fact.  But if you disagree I'm not gonna say your view is ignorant or worthless.


JJM

I think Matt has been very thoughtful in his posts. Nothing he has written have I, personally, found offensive and I agree with a great deal of what he has written. I - and, again, just my opinion - took "challenge ignorance" very differently than you did. I did not feel it conveyed an "air of superiority" or was dismissive. I believe Matt was merely pointing out something that was not factual. To use an extreme example - if you insisted that the Earth was a square and I told you it was round, I "challenged ignorance". Now, thinking the Earth is square is NOT an opinion. It is something that is patently false and can be proven to be false. So, I am not being dismissive nor am I saying your VIEW (which to me implies opinion) is ignorant or worthless. I am saying you have your facts wrong. Also, and Matt please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I believe the main thrust of Matt's posts is Kaepernick's right to protest and "forced" patriotism is not patriotism at all. If Matt took up Kaepernick's reasons behind his protest - which really are NOT that relevant to the debate we are having which is whether he has a right to sit or not, I apologize, I must have missed that post.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: bamagiantfan on September 08, 2016, 04:24:51 PM
The bottom line is that he has the right to do what he is doing. You may not like that he is doing, just as I don't like fans doing the wave at games, players showboating after first downs and then preaching about the Lord blessing them and their team to victory. It is his/their right and I'll have to live with it. There are much more important things to concern us.

Don't read any tone into this question; but do you really think that is the bottom line after what you've seen in the media since he started doing it?

I don't see people questioning his right to do this. It is his choice about how he chose to exercise his right that people are questioning.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jimv on September 08, 2016, 04:37:18 PM
Jim, I already knew those things about you. We have been posting together on this and the old Inside Football message board for over ten years. I feel like I know you, at least a little bit, even if I haven't seemed to make much of an impression on your memory. I'm happy to debate any topic you want. I think you are confusing my disagreement with some of the assumptions and statements being made here with a desire to cause trouble or be argumentative. It's not that at all.

I took a six month break earlier this year because of another thread on this forum in which I disagreed with a premise in which so many of you agreed. I felt badly that I had "caused trouble." The reality is that it is OK for me to disagree with you, or with Finnref, or with anyone here.

I have not started one thread about Kaepernick. I come here to talk about the Giants and football, and I do so with a spirit of openmindedness, camaraderie, and respect for everyone here. Yet I see thread after thread posted where members of this board express the same negative opinions over and over, and like each other's posts, and agree with statements such as the one that started this one -- that if athletes don't stand for the anthem, they shouldn't play. I disagree with that, even though I know I am in the minority here. Just because you don't like my opinion or would rather I didn't voice it doesn't mean that I have wronged you or anyone else.

I took the time to read and respond thoughtfully to the OP and the speech from the retired Colonel. I have taken the time to read and consider every anti-Kaepernick post on BBH in the past few weeks. No one has responded to any of the articles I have posted on those threads. Perhaps you don't view these threads as confrontational because they are in line with your own views? You may think BBH shouldn't be a place where people discuss "politics," and I largely agree. But when people take it upon themselves to come here and sound off with statements that I disagree with, think are inaccurate, or reflect prejudice or lack of empathy for other human beings, I will respond. And I will do so with a tone of respect and attempt to understand other people's points of view. Do you care to understand mine?


Matt, I know your past with the Boards we've been on.  My response was caused by the fact that, by mentioning your bone fides, you were talking down to me.  I know it might be a problem with me, but I take umbrage when people do that to me.  I don't take it well.

To get back to the subject, it's obvious that we don't agree on this situation.  Let's leave at that.  This IS a Giants' Board.  Let's stick to that.   
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 08, 2016, 04:44:19 PM
No, but I can go to the FBI website and look at the statistics and draw conclusions that are contrary to BLM claims. their narrative ignores the real issues in the black community and it isn't police brutality. When the homicide rate of black on black is 97% but all they want to protest is the 1% of police related shootings in my opinion the narrative is false. While I am not ignorant to failing of law enforcement having been in the profession for 28 years I will agree with Sherrif ads id Clarke when he says stop trying to fix the police and start fixing the ghetto.

How do you "fix" the ghetto, when you feel you cannot trust the police? Who do you turn to, to enforce the law? Who do you turn to, to get a murderer off the street? The problem with 30 second sound bites, is they sound good, but really accomplish little except to harden feelings on both sides. 
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Chris on September 08, 2016, 04:49:58 PM
Little different when you are playing for Team USA rather than a professional league.

I have to admit, this spot-on observation has me scratching my head as to the point of the original article.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 08, 2016, 04:53:42 PM
Don't read any tone into this question; but do you really think that is the bottom line after what you've seen in the media since he started doing it?

I don't see people questioning his right to do this. It is his choice about how he chose to exercise his right that people are questioning.

after what you've seen in the media since he started doing it?

So, we are at odds over a media fueled "protest" that, otherwise, would have escaped everyone's notice? How ridiculous is that? Let's think about who is profiting from this and how happy they are that we, the general public, have focused all attentions on it. After all, why discuss failing schools, collapsing infrastructure, lead in the drinking water, fracking caused earthquakes in Oklahoma at size never seen before, when we can discuss a second string QB who kneels during the National Anthem?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 04:56:30 PM
No, but I can go to the FBI website and look at the statistics and draw conclusions that are contrary to BLM claims. their narrative ignores the real issues in the black community and it isn't police brutality. When the homicide rate of black on black is 97% but all they want to protest is the 1% of police related shootings in my opinion the narrative is false. While I am not ignorant to failing of law enforcement having been in the profession for 28 years I will agree with Sherrif David Clarke when he says stop trying to fix the police and start fixing the ghetto.

But how do you know what "their narrative" is? Have you spoken with members of a BLM group in your community? Or are you fighting a straw man generated by those who share your views that vilifies that organization and presents it as your enemy.

I encourage you to read this page and tell me what it is you disagree with: http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/ (http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/)

I'm happy to have a conversation with you about this by PM if you are really interested. I've worked with community groups and police and we constantly discuss these issues. Here's a question: African Americans make up 13% of the U.S. population and over 50% of homicide perpetrators. Why?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: katkavage on September 08, 2016, 05:01:00 PM
Don't read any tone into this question; but do you really think that is the bottom line after what you've seen in the media since he started doing it?

I don't see people questioning his right to do this. It is his choice about how he chose to exercise his right that people are questioning.

People are questioning his right. And for his choice, what does it matter how he protests? People can question all they want. I have a problem with athletes bringing religion into the game by pointing to the heavens or thanking Jesus for everything, but it's their right. I'm over it. Fans should be over CK's display as well. This is America. We are allowed to do these things and I'm glad for it.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 05:03:55 PM

Matt, I know your past with the Boards we've been on.  My response was caused by the fact that, by mentioning your bone fides, you were talking down to me.  I know it might be a problem with me, but I take umbrage when people do that to me.  I don't take it well.

To get back to the subject, it's obvious that we don't agree on this situation.  Let's leave at that.  This IS a Giants' Board.  Let's stick to that.

Jim, that was not my intent. I was attempting to explain why my perspective may be different from yours and some of the other people here. I didn't name any degrees or positions held or anything like that. I wasn't presenting myself as an expert. On this topic over the past several weeks, many posters have told me of their military or police backgrounds. I'm not sure why you would think I was "talking down" to you, because I have a lot of respect for you as my elder and as someone I've been conversing with for many years.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Little Giant on September 08, 2016, 05:05:36 PM
you fix the ghetto by pouring money into schools and bringing jobs into the area in my humble opinion.
Matt, i felt in an earlier thread on this topic, you were also talking down to me . I decided not to respond. This is the one site I really enjoy talking giant football. All you guys are so knowledgeable when it comes to football. I really learn a lot !!!!
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 05:10:16 PM
you fix the ghetto by pouring money into schools and bringing jobs into the area in my humble opinion.
Matt, i felt in an earlier thread on this topic, you were also talking down to me . I decided not to respond. This is the one site I really enjoy talking giant football. All you guys are so knowledgeable when it comes to football. I really learn a lot !!!!

What made you feel like that, Little Giant?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: murderhill on September 08, 2016, 05:15:51 PM
All i will say is many stood up and sacrificed so he could sit!!!
I will keep any other thoughts to myself
BS.  You're spouting a standard patriotic rhetorical aphorism.  Do it if you want but I stood up.  Volunteered for the Marine Corps in '66 and and volunteered for Vietnam in '67.  I went through the days of the Tet Offensive and was scared shitless because I was a short-timer with 11 days to go and I ran an ambush patrol on the night of the 28th and almost killed one of my men on my patrol. 

I support what Kapernick has and is doing.  Even if it isn't exactly appropriate according to whatever standards you want to apply.  He isn't doing anyone any harm.  He is thoughtful about what he is doing.  I think that racism is getting ramped up in this country when I was hoping that we might be able to escape it.  A lot of poor black men in urban areas are getting shot and killed and a lot of white men aren't.  If there is some rule that he is violating, be it the state or city or the NFL, the Constitution that I pledged an oath to protect allows him to do what he is doing. 
I also recognize and reluctantly support that the patriotically righteous want to have their day and their say. 

I think it is piling on.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 08, 2016, 06:05:04 PM
Excellent post.

Matt, you know I respect you and your opinion but with regard to you saying that you "...challenge ignorance" - doesn't that suggest an air of superiority and isn't it totally dismissive of opinions other than yours?

The BLM movement was founded on a lie (Hands up don't shoot).  I believe that is a fact.  But if you disagree I'm not gonna say your view is ignorant or worthless.


JJM

Jimbo, I appreciate what you are saying. I have already apologized to Jim and explained that being condescending was not my intent. I hope everyone will take that at face value.

From what I have read, Michael Brown acted aggressively toward the officer and that is why he was shot. However, BLM was founded after the Trayvon Martin verdict. I know you and I have already been to the well on that one, so I'm not trying to discuss it.

Personally, I have been to BLM meetings in my community and I have discussed these issues regularly with my students. I challenge their factual understandings of situations much, much harder than I do here. I have organized workshops where the young people I work with and the police can discuss these issues and talk about these issues. It has been my experience that there is a tremendous amount of misunderstandings and undue animosity on both sides. One of my proudest moments came two years ago when an officer who was acting as a mentor in a program I organized helped two of the young people I introduced him to prepare for the police exam. Those kids will hopefully become cops on the streets where they grew up and be able to mediate some of the misunderstandings that arise in the future.

My experience is the vast majority of people want an end to violence and racial harmony. My concern over the rhetoric here at BBH is that I think some of you guys may be seeing Kaepernick, who reminds me a lot of my students or my stepbrothers or friends, in some ways, as the enemy. The colonel's final statements equating him with "Muslim Extremism" and stating he needs to be "watched" was what prompted my words about ignorance. That kind of thinking, to me, is antithetical to progress and solutions to the problems we're facing.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jimv on September 08, 2016, 06:28:46 PM
Jim, that was not my intent. I was attempting to explain why my perspective may be different from yours and some of the other people here. I didn't name any degrees or positions held or anything like that. I wasn't presenting myself as an expert. On this topic over the past several weeks, many posters have told me of their military or police backgrounds. I'm not sure why you would think I was "talking down" to you, because I have a lot of respect for you as my elder and as someone I've been conversing with for many years.


Matt, I hope we've settled our difference by PM.  Let's get back to the GIANTS!!!! :ok:
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: JimboWHO on September 08, 2016, 07:33:00 PM
I think Matt has been very thoughtful in his posts. Nothing he has written have I, personally, found offensive and I agree with a great deal of what he has written. I - and, again, just my opinion - took "challenge ignorance" very differently than you did. I did not feel it conveyed an "air of superiority" or was dismissive. I believe Matt was merely pointing out something that was not factual. To use an extreme example - if you insisted that the Earth was a square and I told you it was round, I "challenged ignorance". Now, thinking the Earth is square is NOT an opinion. It is something that is patently false and can be proven to be false. So, I am not being dismissive nor am I saying your VIEW (which to me implies opinion) is ignorant or worthless. I am saying you have your facts wrong. Also, and Matt please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I believe the main thrust of Matt's posts is Kaepernick's right to protest and "forced" patriotism is not patriotism at all. If Matt took up Kaepernick's reasons behind his protest - which really are NOT that relevant to the debate we are having which is whether he has a right to sit or not, I apologize, I must have missed that post.

Tucker

What you've written is very thoughtful as well.  No surprise there.  The only disagreement I have with you is that nobody is debating whether Kap has a right to sit at all.  Unless I've missed it I've seen nothing here that conveys that thought - of course he does enjoy that right.


JJM
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 08, 2016, 08:05:16 PM
Tucker

What you've written is very thoughtful as well.  No surprise there.  The only disagreement I have with you is that nobody is debating whether Kap has a right to sit at all.  Unless I've missed it I've seen nothing here that conveys that thought - of course he does enjoy that right.


JJM

Personally, and this is NOT directed at you in any way, I think the topic has been beaten to death. I hope that we, as a group, who, for the most part, seem to get along and respect one another, can get back to discussing the Giants. And if we should stray into current events again, I hope we discuss something more substantial. I think much of this furor is media driven and I think the sooner we move on from it - meaning NO clicks onto any articles that even reference it - the sooner the media will let it go. Personally, I'm ready to put Kaepernick in the rearview mirror and watch the Giants start the season 1-0. I think this is a pretty damn fine collection of Jint fans and, even though I know it's impossible to pull off since we are scattered around the globe, I wish we could all see a game together and enjoy some beers while watching a Giants win. First one that mentions Kaepernick has to pick up the tab.  ;)
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: JimboWHO on September 08, 2016, 08:21:36 PM
Jimbo, I appreciate what you are saying. I have already apologized to Jim and explained that being condescending was not my intent. I hope everyone will take that at face value.

From what I have read, Michael Brown acted aggressively toward the officer and that is why he was shot. However, BLM was founded after the Trayvon Martin verdict. I know you and I have already been to the well on that one, so I'm not trying to discuss it.

Personally, I have been to BLM meetings in my community and I have discussed these issues regularly with my students. I challenge their factual understandings of situations much, much harder than I do here. I have organized workshops where the young people I work with and the police can discuss these issues and talk about these issues. It has been my experience that there is a tremendous amount of misunderstandings and undue animosity on both sides. One of my proudest moments came two years ago when an officer who was acting as a mentor in a program I organized helped two of the young people I introduced him to prepare for the police exam. Those kids will hopefully become cops on the streets where they grew up and be able to mediate some of the misunderstandings that arise in the future.

My experience is the vast majority of people want an end to violence and racial harmony. My concern over the rhetoric here at BBH is that I think some of you guys may be seeing Kaepernick, who reminds me a lot of my students or my stepbrothers or friends, in some ways, as the enemy. The colonel's final statements equating him with "Muslim Extremism" and stating he needs to be "watched" was what prompted my words about ignorance. That kind of thinking, to me, is antithetical to progress and solutions to the problems we're facing.

Matt

If the movement was founded on the Martin incident I stand corrected.  Knowing the facts of that case very well it won't surprise you however, to hear me say that the genesis of the movement being started on the basis of this incident makes it just as misguided.  That's not to say that you don't work with good people within the movement at your meetings.  I'm sure you do.

If you don't mind take a moment to read the work done by Heather MacDonald.  She separates fact from myth by citing stats from University studies, Justice Department studies, etc. 

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/the-danger-of-the-black-lives-matter-movement/


JJM
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Jaime on September 08, 2016, 10:51:01 PM
Another scumbag taking a knee during the National Anthem tonight during Thursday Night Football. I'm afraid this might be with us the entire season? Thinking the only way the NFL will react is when sponsors start withdrawing or voicing objections. Once you threaten the NFL with lost revenue, you tend to get an immediate reaction. I'm aghast over this unfolding event. :boooo:
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Ed Vette on September 08, 2016, 11:24:35 PM
77% of NFL fans are Caucasian. The NFL has known in order to grow they needed to increase their fan base with women. Thus women getting jobs in color commentary and now in officiating and soon as kickers and punters. There is a huge Black and African American market out there and it's also being cultivated. The NFL is going to sit on their hands in this matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Little Giant on September 09, 2016, 06:11:07 AM
Matt...it's water under the bridge at this point
I just want to worry how the giants are going to beat the cowboys..lol
You guys teach me a lot on giant football and for that I am much appreciative.
REALLY my mistake, i know better then to get into these issues on a football site
I can't believe giants are still underdogs with romo out!!!
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: EDjohnst1981 on September 09, 2016, 07:14:35 AM
Tucker

What you've written is very thoughtful as well.  No surprise there.  The only disagreement I have with you is that nobody is debating whether Kap has a right to sit at all.  Unless I've missed it I've seen nothing here that conveys that thought - of course he does enjoy that right.


JJM

Can I ask a question then: if we acknowledge the existence of a right to as he wants, why is this an issue?

As an Englishman looking in, I believe this reaction may be overblown (Marshall's choice to sit has made it to the BBC Sport page today). I may not agree with his actions but I respect the right to do as he chooses. You're the land of the free after all and I read that to mean you can do as you wish so long as you respect the law.

In England, our national soccer team rarely sing our national anthem. Some do. Some just move their lips to mimic singing and others do nothing. It causes a reaction here as they are accused of lacking passion. But nobody accuses them of being disrespectful to the Queen.

As an aside, is there a larger issue of race permeating this issue (I'm in no way accusing anyone of racism in this thread. I mean in a wider social context). Would their be the same negative reaction if successful, wealthy white men like Eli, Brady or Brees sat? I only ask as someone mentioned racism ramping up earlier on and it's something we are suffering from in England with the post-EU vote.

Anyway, just my two pence thrown in from over the river. And just to reiterate, I'm not implying anyone has been racist in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Ed Vette on September 09, 2016, 09:34:00 AM
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/football/sullivan-supports-the-anthem-1.1657366 (http://www.northjersey.com/sports/football/sullivan-supports-the-anthem-1.1657366)

EAST RUTHERFORD — It was early in training camp — before 49rers QB Colin Kaepernick made a decision not to stand during the national anthem as a means of social protest — that Giants coach Ben McAdoo had offensive coordinator Mike Sullivan address the team about the importance of those minutes prior to kickoff.

Sullivan played defensive back at Army in the late-1980s, and is a graduate of the U.S. Army Airborne, Ranger and Air Assault schools.

"Based upon my military background, as you would expect, I have very, very strong feelings about the national anthem," Sullivan said.

"What it means. The liberty, the freedom and, most importantly, all of those who have served and are serving and those who will serve who provide us with that freedom. That freedom comes at a price, and I think the important thing that is often lost, and maybe recently lost, is that the military is not just the military. They are fathers, they are mothers, they are sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, and so there’s a face to them and they need to be respected and they need to be appreciated."

Kaepernick’s use of the anthem as a protest against misdeeds against minorities in this country has become a hot button issue. Sullivan said: "It’s not about politics. It’s just about showing appreciation and respect for those who made the ultimate sacrifice and those who are allowing individuals to express their opinions, which certainly that individual is free to have his views and he’s bringing some awareness to some important issues. But what I strongly disagree with is the method at that time."
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: bamagiantfan on September 09, 2016, 09:50:13 AM
People are questioning his right. And for his choice, what does it matter how he protests? People can question all they want. I have a problem with athletes bringing religion into the game by pointing to the heavens or thanking Jesus for everything, but it's their right. I'm over it. Fans should be over CK's display as well. This is America. We are allowed to do these things and I'm glad for it.

I simply disagree. No one is questioning his right. They are questioning how he is exercising his right and they are entitled to their free speech as well. There are consequences for your actions whether they are allowed or not. He is accepting the consequences, as is Rapino and others for standing up for the change they believe needs to happen. They have the right, and I will say again that I do not believe that anyone is questioning that.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: JimboWHO on September 09, 2016, 10:01:48 AM
Can I ask a question then: if we acknowledge the existence of a right to as he wants, why is this an issue?

As an Englishman looking in, I believe this reaction may be overblown (Marshall's choice to sit has made it to the BBC Sport page today). I may not agree with his actions but I respect the right to do as he chooses. You're the land of the free after all and I read that to mean you can do as you wish so long as you respect the law.

In England, our national soccer team rarely sing our national anthem. Some do. Some just move their lips to mimic singing and others do nothing. It causes a reaction here as they are accused of lacking passion. But nobody accuses them of being disrespectful to the Queen.

As an aside, is there a larger issue of race permeating this issue (I'm in no way accusing anyone of racism in this thread. I mean in a wider social context). Would their be the same negative reaction if successful, wealthy white men like Eli, Brady or Brees sat? I only ask as someone mentioned racism ramping up earlier on and it's something we are suffering from in England with the post-EU vote.

Anyway, just my two pence thrown in from over the river. And just to reiterate, I'm not implying anyone has been racist in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are pages and pages of posts within a couple of threads on this subject that address your question.  Many posts (including directly above) that speak to your question.


JJM
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: state_property on September 09, 2016, 10:34:27 PM
You have Americans all over the world burning flags and the outrage isn't nearly as much as a man choosing to quietly protest.

If anything those who burn and destroy the flag of the country they live in should be exported somewhere else.

I think we sometime channel our energy at the wrong things.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: worf49 on September 09, 2016, 10:43:07 PM
I wonder what would happen if fans decided to leave the stadiums before the game was played after the dumb ass jocks getting in line to protest something they are ill equipped to fathom?

If they want to make a statement then dedicate 20% of their salary to assist those in need!

Put your money where your mouth is or STFU!

Really it seems pretty easy to reconcile the fact that most of them do very little but complain.

Positive action is best realized in helping.

Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Jaime on September 10, 2016, 12:55:59 AM
Let's see here, the combined income of the two kneeling scumbags is approximately 20 million dollars this season. Sounds like America has proved itself pretty well for Kapernick & Marshall? So I'm having a little trouble connecting the dots here with the social injustice slant? Kapernick sporting those socks with Policeman portrayed as pigs helps sort things out on his behalf. Wonder if Kapernick was the starting Quarterback, would he be taking a knee?

As for Marshall, even with America and all it's social injustices, he was able to fight through all of that and sign a 32 million dollar contract . Bully for him, what a guy...

Both these disrespecting  scumbags claim they will be donating money to some as of yet un-named  Organization. Kapernick made that claim over a week ago of a pending million-dollar donation. How long does it take to write a check? I guess he writes really slow. Methinks eventually there will be significant pushback on this kneeling Behavior. I don't know exactly what form it will take? But I believe that it will be significant, and it will prevail. Hence making the two aforementioned scumbags, and anybody else that follows this disrespectful Behavior regretting that they ever got involved in this Pursuit.
With tehe media and Showbiz being the whores that they are, they will ride this Pony and squeeze every rating point out of it possible. I just heard today that ESPN will be televising the National Anthem Monday night which is not normally televised in their Monday night broadcast. Oh, forgot to mention that's because the Niners will be playing Monday night.

My two cents...
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 10, 2016, 02:23:32 AM
With tehe media and Showbiz being the whores that they are, they will ride this Pony and squeeze every rating point out of it possible. I just heard today that ESPN will be televising the National Anthem Monday night which is not normally televised in their Monday night broadcast. Oh, forgot to mention that's because the Niners will be playing Monday night.

My two cents...

So, if you recognize that it's media driven, why continue to feed the beast? I have no qualms with you, Jamie. We've never argued, at least, not that I can remember, anyway. But it's guys like you, with disproportionate anger over inconsequential actions by strangers, that is keeping this story alive. Shut off the TV, have a beer, and remember that the actions of two football players does not, and will not, change how YOU feel about our Country and our Anthem. I was born and raised in NYC. My children were all born there. I was living with my wife and our first born in Manhattan on 9/11. I'm pretty sure someone is going to sit, or take a knee, when the games are played on Sunday - 9/11. That day is still "sacred" in my house and I know that it would really upset me to see ANYONE not participate in the Anthem. You know how I plan to deal with that? Turn on the TV at ten after the hour. That way I can leave this bulls**t behind and enjoy the game. I would suggest, for your own enjoyment, you consider doing the same. 
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: T200 on September 10, 2016, 02:39:00 AM
It's a shame that Kap is enduring the amount of backlash that he is because of how he chose to protest. Often times it's a little easier to sit in judgment of another than it is to understand their point of view. Those people claiming disrespect because of military or police affiliation simply refuse to understand what his reason and purpose is. It most certainly isn't to disrespect those who have served and continue to serve in order to make and keep this country great and free.

Many minorities have fought and died in defense of this great country. There is a great respect for their service and sacrifice. Or is the respect for the uniform and not the men and women in them? As a black man that has served and continues to serve in the military, I do enjoy wearing my uniform proudly and unabashedly. I accept the thanks that I get from folks who take the time to acknowledge my service. But I don't wear my uniform 24/7. And I'm back to being just another black man. When I'm out to dinner with my wife and my family and we hold hands and say grace before our meal, no one comes over to us to say thanks for being a great example for my sons and others who are watching. But I've had many people come over to me while I'm in uniform to thank me.

Some have said that he gets paid handsomely to play a game. It's true. But if he was a just a fan in the stands and sat during the national anthem, would anyone know or even care? Or is the backlash because he's not a highly liked player? What if Eli or Tom decided to protest in the same manner, in the same venue? Is the reaction the same? The messenger is being slayed and the message ignored.

Truth be told, he didn't mention what he was planning to do to anyone. He just did it. No press conference. No tweet. No FB post. He just did it. The media caught it and it exploded.

To those that have said black-on-black crime is more detrimental to the black community than police killing blacks and Kap and the BLM organization should focus on the former, I say hogwash. That's like telling a brain surgeon he/she should focus on cancer research rather than brain surgery because cancer is a bigger problem. None of the problems in the minority communities are going to get solved immediately. But if someone, anyone wants to focus their efforts on a smaller portion of the problem, then so be it.

Personally, I think he could have chosen a better venue and method to protest. But I'm not up in arms and offended by it.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Doc16LT56 on September 10, 2016, 10:10:56 AM
This Kap commercial is old but seems so fitting for this thread. The mob is just that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ttsx5squWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ttsx5squWg)
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Jaime on September 10, 2016, 03:00:48 PM
Tucker & T200, thanks for the feedback it is much appreciated. Let me say that I am all in for correcting social injustice, no matter what the source. But as mentioned, this is the wrong time and place to be trying to make a statement regarding this awareness. And no, I wouldn't give Eli (or any equivalent) a pass if he was to take a knee.
What these two misguided activists don't realize, is that their behavior is alienating the very Target group that they need to help turn around social injustice. As mentioned, wrong platform. One option would be to use their celebrity & $ to start a foundation with a goal of sending a hundred inner-city kids to college. now that well aimed effort would yield much needed results. :-??
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: LennG on September 10, 2016, 04:23:03 PM
Quote
I also recognize and reluctantly support that the patriotically righteous want to have their day and their say.

I think it is piling on.

Dennis

we have met and I respect you and your service very much. But I also served my country and spent a little time in Viet Nam, though in a sort of non combat role (if there was one in Nam). But sorry, I feel completely different about this than you. I do not feel I am one of what you call the patriotic righteous. Why is wanting people to respect the flag, what it stands for and respecting the way we show that respect for it being 'patriotically righteous'?. Sorry but you are way off base on this.
For all who have come out and supported this weasel, there have been hundreds more who have condemned his actions. Sure there will be people like yourself who want to be liberalized and think making a political statement at a football game is a great thing. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But on my watch it sure isn't, and I really resent being called one of the politically righteous just because I support the way the flag, and our anthem, are to be respected.

There is a time and a place for political statements. Sure the weasel has a right to do what he wants because of the blood many have shed.

Let me ask a question of all the people who think this was such a great thing. A political statement at a football game. Say the weasel had said he was doing this because of the oppression that the United States was doing to Muslims and Islam, all over the world. Would you still feel the same way. Would anyone feel the same way?. Because this has come out as a Black vs. White issue, all the liberals have stood up to say we support him. OK, but again, what if this was a Muslim thing, an Islam thing would you still think that was OK instead of respecting our flag and anthem?

Sorry but football games, as well as Olympics and any other sports venue are NOT the place to make political statement.

And again, I simply resent the way you grouped me in your 'patriotic righteousness' just because I want people to show respect for the flag and their country.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Mr. Matt on September 10, 2016, 04:44:15 PM
Dennis

we have met and I respect you and your service very much. But I also served my country and spent a little time in Viet Nam, though in a sort of non combat role (if there was one in Nam). But sorry, I feel completely different about this than you. I do not feel I am one of what you call the patriotic righteous. Why is wanting people to respect the flag, what it stands for and respecting the way we show that respect for it being 'patriotically righteous'?. Sorry but you are way off base on this.
For all who have come out and supported this weasel, there have been hundreds more who have condemned his actions. Sure there will be people like yourself who want to be liberalized and think making a political statement at a football game is a great thing. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But on my watch it sure isn't, and I really resent being called one of the politically righteous just because I support the way the flag, and our anthem, are to be respected.

There is a time and a place for political statements. Sure the weasel has a right to do what he wants because of the blood many have shed.

Let me ask a question of all the people who think this was such a great thing. A political statement at a football game. Say the weasel had said he was doing this because of the oppression that the United States was doing to Muslims and Islam, all over the world. Would you still feel the same way. Would anyone feel the same way?. Because this has come out as a Black vs. White issue, all the liberals have stood up to say we support him. OK, but again, what if this was a Muslim thing, an Islam thing would you still think that was OK instead of respecting our flag and anthem?

Sorry but football games, as well as Olympics and any other sports venue are NOT the place to make political statement.

And again, I simply resent the way you grouped me in your 'patriotic righteousness' just because I want people to show respect for the flag and their country.

Lenn, I think it's the tone of the criticism of Kaepernick that is part of the issue. When you have to resort to calling somebody you disagree with a "weasel" or a "scumbag," I think it gives the impression that you are angry and willing to be disrespectful because someone has a different perspective. I totally respect you and Jaime and Rambo and Jumbo even though we disagree on this subject, but it bothers me just as much when you guys throw around these epithets as it bothers you when you feel labeled by Murderhill.

As far as your question about Islam, that also saddens me. There are 700 million Muslims in the world, and yes, most of their homelands were colonized by white people even within your lifetime.  So personally, if Kaepernick's protest referenced Muslims, I would not feel any differently about his rights or positions.

Finally, I am asking this question honestly: Why is a sporting event sacred? If it's not the right place for political displays, then what's with all the military displays, the flyovers, the singing of the anthem, etc. Some of the greatest and most defining political statements of the last century have been made by athletes: Jackie Robinson sat in the dugout for the anthem his whole career. Muhammed Ali was stripped of his title for refusing to go to Vietnam. To me, civil rights are way more important than football. It sounds to me like you guys are saying democracy should be suspended during games?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: LennG on September 10, 2016, 04:49:12 PM
It's a shame that Kap is enduring the amount of backlash that he is because of how he chose to protest. Often times it's a little easier to sit in judgment of another than it is to understand their point of view. Those people claiming disrespect because of military or police affiliation simply refuse to understand what his reason and purpose is. It most certainly isn't to disrespect those who have served and continue to serve in order to make and keep this country great and free.

Many minorities have fought and died in defense of this great country. There is a great respect for their service and sacrifice. Or is the respect for the uniform and not the men and women in them? As a black man that has served and continues to serve in the military, I do enjoy wearing my uniform proudly and unabashedly. I accept the thanks that I get from folks who take the time to acknowledge my service. But I don't wear my uniform 24/7. And I'm back to being just another black man. When I'm out to dinner with my wife and my family and we hold hands and say grace before our meal, no one comes over to us to say thanks for being a great example for my sons and others who are watching. But I've had many people come over to me while I'm in uniform to thank me.

Some have said that he gets paid handsomely to play a game. It's true. But if he was a just a fan in the stands and sat during the national anthem, would anyone know or even care? Or is the backlash because he's not a highly liked player? What if Eli or Tom decided to protest in the same manner, in the same venue? Is the reaction the same? The messenger is being slayed and the message ignored.

Truth be told, he didn't mention what he was planning to do to anyone. He just did it. No press conference. No tweet. No FB post. He just did it. The media caught it and it exploded.

To those that have said black-on-black crime is more detrimental to the black community than police killing blacks and Kap and the BLM organization should focus on the former, I say hogwash. That's like telling a brain surgeon he/she should focus on cancer research rather than brain surgery because cancer is a bigger problem. None of the problems in the minority communities are going to get solved immediately. But if someone, anyone wants to focus their efforts on a smaller portion of the problem, then so be it.

Personally, I think he could have chosen a better venue and method to protest. But I'm not up in arms and offended by it.

Tim

First of all, thank you for your service. I know I appreciate it when people stop me and thank me, so all the more to you also.

While I agree with what you say, I still go back to time and place. A football game, and basically turning your back on our flag and anthem is just not the right way of doing it.

Why didn't he ask the press to listen to something he had to say. He might have gotten more from a 'press conference' than being heaped on because of his actions. Has he brought anything new to the table on this issue? Is ANYONE really discussing the real point, what he was 'so called' trying to protest?. Sure people are talking, but they aren't talking about the real issues he wants changed. He has become the center of attention and NOT his issues.
 I do take offense at his actions. Same way I took offense years ago when 2 Black athletes showed the Black Power salute at the Olympics. These venues are simply not the time and place for it. Where those radicals who murdered the Israeli athletes OK because they were protesting something THEY believed in?

You mentioned that if it happened in the stands, say a person didn't stand for the National Anthem, no one would care. I would care, and if the person looked capable of standing, like some young dude, I would also say something to him or her, nicely, but I would say something. That is me though. Maybe no one else would care, but believe it or not, some do care.

Obviously everyone agrees that he has the right to do what he wants because of the way this country was formed. But a political protest at a sports venue only brings negative attention to the problem at hand. As I said, are people talking about what he was protesting or has he brought all the attention onto himself? He has a following, all athletes have a following. All he needed to do was contact the press and state to them how he feels. The problem would be first and forthright and not all this backlash.

As I said in a previous post, how would you, or others feel if Muslim did this in protest of our actions in the Middle East? How would people feel if there was a protest about North Korea? Say a player said I am not going to stand because of the way the media is depicting Hillary Clinton? Obviously no one would care and they would really be condemned for their action. But because it happens to be a Black/White issue, then it is OK? where is the line drawn? Is his right to protest OK as long as it fits into some people's agenda?

And what about those socks, depicting cops as pigs. It simply amazes me how anyone can support this true weasel.
Remember Rick Monday and how he snatched the American flag from some one who was going to burn it in protest. Would you hail; him as a hero as most do now, or would you have supported the rights of those who wanted to burn it? For me it's the same thing, respect for our flag and what it stands for. No more, no less.

Once again, my thanks for your service.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Chris on September 10, 2016, 06:36:13 PM
If no one is arguing Kapernick's right to protest then why are we on page four of this thread?

Supporting freedom of speech and expression is easy when you agree with the speech and/or expression in question. When you don't agree? Isn't that where the rubber truly meets the road?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jimv on September 10, 2016, 07:31:18 PM
"...why are we on the fourth page of this thread" INDEED?  Just about everything that could be said has already been said.  Can we, PLEASE, let it go & get back to football?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: JimboWHO on September 10, 2016, 07:50:41 PM
Football is being talked about on this board.  And everybody here has demonstrated that an intelligent, respectful discussion can also be held on an important topic of the day that originated on the football field.


JJM
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jimv on September 10, 2016, 08:44:09 PM
Football is being talked about on this board.  And everybody here has demonstrated that an intelligent, respectful discussion can also be held on an important topic of the day that originated on the football field.


JJM


You're absolutely CORRECT, Jimbo.  But such a discussion should really take place on the Front Porch.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Chris on September 10, 2016, 09:00:00 PM
And everybody here has demonstrated that an intelligent, respectful discussion can also be held on an important topic of the day that originated on the football field.

No question that the conversation has been respectful towards members of both sides of the discussion, Jimbo.

Rephrasing my original question to include your statement above, why is this an important topic if everyone engaged in the discussion feels that Kapernick, or any other player (and buckle your seat belts because there's more coming tomorrow), has the right to protest in such a manner?
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: T200 on September 10, 2016, 11:11:52 PM
Tim

First of all, thank you for your service. I know I appreciate it when people stop me and thank me, so all the more to you also.

While I agree with what you say, I still go back to time and place. A football game, and basically turning your back on our flag and anthem is just not the right way of doing it.

Why didn't he ask the press to listen to something he had to say. He might have gotten more from a 'press conference' than being heaped on because of his actions. Has he brought anything new to the table on this issue? Is ANYONE really discussing the real point, what he was 'so called' trying to protest?. Sure people are talking, but they aren't talking about the real issues he wants changed. He has become the center of attention and NOT his issues.
 I do take offense at his actions. Same way I took offense years ago when 2 Black athletes showed the Black Power salute at the Olympics. These venues are simply not the time and place for it. Where those radicals who murdered the Israeli athletes OK because they were protesting something THEY believed in?

You mentioned that if it happened in the stands, say a person didn't stand for the National Anthem, no one would care. I would care, and if the person looked capable of standing, like some young dude, I would also say something to him or her, nicely, but I would say something. That is me though. Maybe no one else would care, but believe it or not, some do care.

Obviously everyone agrees that he has the right to do what he wants because of the way this country was formed. But a political protest at a sports venue only brings negative attention to the problem at hand. As I said, are people talking about what he was protesting or has he brought all the attention onto himself? He has a following, all athletes have a following. All he needed to do was contact the press and state to them how he feels. The problem would be first and forthright and not all this backlash.

As I said in a previous post, how would you, or others feel if Muslim did this in protest of our actions in the Middle East? How would people feel if there was a protest about North Korea? Say a player said I am not going to stand because of the way the media is depicting Hillary Clinton? Obviously no one would care and they would really be condemned for their action. But because it happens to be a Black/White issue, then it is OK? where is the line drawn? Is his right to protest OK as long as it fits into some people's agenda?

And what about those socks, depicting cops as pigs. It simply amazes me how anyone can support this true weasel.
Remember Rick Monday and how he snatched the American flag from some one who was going to burn it in protest. Would you hail; him as a hero as most do now, or would you have supported the rights of those who wanted to burn it? For me it's the same thing, respect for our flag and what it stands for. No more, no less.

Once again, my thanks for your service.

Len,

Thank you for your service as well, along with all my other brothers and sisters in arms.

You and I are both in agreement in that he could have chosen a different venue to stage his protest. But the reality is that he feels that American society allows the mistreatment of minorities and at the moment, he chooses not to pledge allegiance for those reasons.

I can only answer for myself regarding a Muslim protesting against our actions in the Middle East. My opinion is more power to them. I don't have a problem with any citizen exercising their rights so long as they do not infringe on others.

You asked, "Is his right to protest OK as long as it fits into some people's agenda?" No, his right to protest is OK because it is his right to protest. It really is that simple. But I thought we were all in agreement on that point. The issue is how/where/what he chose to protest.

The socks I don't agree with. I certainly wouldn't do that. I know that there are outstanding cops serving our communities. I wouldn't put them in the same category as those who don't deserve to wear the uniform. To me, wearing those socks is derogatory to all cops, good and bad. It takes away from his civil disobedience stance because now he's just being childish and calling names.

Most people who protest have never done it before and there really is no handbook. Protests generally happen when people get fed up and their emotions lead the way. No one was hurt by Kap and therefore I give him, or anyone else for any other reason, a pass in how he chose to protest. I applaud anyone for standing up against injustice in any form. Hopefully the message doesn't get lost in the manner in which the protest is carried out.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: JimboWHO on September 11, 2016, 10:33:29 AM
No question that the conversation has been respectful towards members of both sides of the discussion, Jimbo.

Rephrasing my original question to include your statement above, why is this an important topic if everyone engaged in the discussion feels that Kapernick, or any other player (and buckle your seat belts because there's more coming tomorrow), has the right to protest in such a manner?

I think our first hint that it’s an important topic is that this is thread number three, page number 12 and post number 140+ on the subject.
 
To hear from the Vets on this issue is to understand the misguided nature of Kaepernick’s gesture.  It’s important because Kaepernick wants to be seen “protesting” the flag and the anthem, the song that tells the story of the people who died to provide him with the ability to act like a jerk.
 
The veterans are right to be angry and it’s important to hear their voice because if not for them we’d not be here or would be speaking a different language.  Kaepernick can protest the “bodies in the streets” in a hundred other ways but he chose this stupidity.  The backlash brought him from the bench to the sideline on his knee. America, the nation with the system that affords him the lifestyle of luxury, was a little less “unjust” from one week to the next.

From there we can point out that Kaepernick’s stupidity is spreading to other sports.  This Megan Rapinoe (female soccer player) was coming into town to do her “kneel thing” but was foiled when the opposing team’s owner played the anthem before the players took the field.  She let it be known afterward that she was not happy about it which informs us that these people are more interested in “Look At Me” than anything else.  Like Kaepernick, Megan Rapinoe never learned that it’s what you do when nobody’s watching that matters.

It’s also important in that no matter what side you come down on you can learn from others.  I thought much of what Matt was saying on the subject was rather bizarre until we had a PM exchange and he shared his personal experiences with me.  As is usually the case when he and I talk privately I came away learning from what he said and wrote.  And I’ve learned from others too.

So this has become a national story and I guess we are having the proverbial "national conversation on race."  It's good that we are examining racists cops and dealing with them.  The part of the conversation that deals with black-on-black crime and the 6,000 blacks murdered every year by other blacks?  That always seems to be elusive. 

Importantly though, the nature of the people on this board is such that controversial topics can be discussed without folks getting personal or abusive.  And new things get learned, opposing sides can inch maybe a little closer together. 


JJM
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Chris on September 11, 2016, 11:20:30 AM
To hear from the Vets on this issue is to understand the misguided nature of Kaepernick’s gesture.  It’s important because Kaepernick wants to be seen “protesting” the flag and the anthem, the song that tells the story of the people who died to provide him with the ability to act like a jerk.
 
The veterans are right to be angry and it’s important to hear their voice because if not for them we’d not be here or would be speaking a different language. 

I don't think anyone is begrudging anyone from being upset about Kapernick's choice. Most people are defending the act, not the motivation behind it.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: tucker115 on September 11, 2016, 11:38:27 AM
Dennis

Sure there will be people like yourself who want to be liberalized and think making a political statement at a football game is a great thing. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But on my watch it sure isn't, and I really resent being called one of the politically righteous just because I support the way the flag, and our anthem, are to be respected.

There is a time and a place for political statements.

Lenn,

You can be "conservative", whatever that means in your mind, and support Kaepernick's RIGHTS. I don't believe anyone has said making a political statement at a football is "a great thing". We HAVE said, that the fact that Kaepernick has a right to do, IS a great thing and it is. Loving our Nation's freedoms, to me, is the one of the most patriotic thing you can do. It made me sick, and continues to do so, that the American people so willingly surrendered so many of their freedoms and rights, post 9/11, in the name of "security". You are right about one thing, there IS a time and place for political statements. It's when an American citizen feels his/her rights are being impinged upon or taken away. I remember growing up in an America where my letters and calls were private and if the government wanted to know what I was saying, they had to go to court and get a warrant. And 99% of the judges made damn sure the government was kept on a short leash. They could only "listen" for a short period of time and then they would have come back into the court and prove to the judge that the warrant was still needed. Now, we are all "okay" with all of our emails being read and stored and all our phone calls recorded and stored? In my "liberalized" world, nothing could be more un-American. How can ANYONE support THAT?!? What could be more disrespectful to your service, my father's service, and every vet's service, than TAKING away the freedoms you all fought to preserve? Notice the word "preserve" doesn't have an asterisk saying all that blood shed over so many wars will be disregarded and declared null and void after a terrorist attack. You want to be 'outraged" over something? Ask yourself whether allowing our government to spy on us, anytime, for any reason, or Kaepernick taking a knee during the National Anthem, disrespects your sacrifice and harms our Country more.
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: jerseyguy on November 16, 2016, 11:24:26 AM
far too may guys have given their lives in defense of this flag and no one living in this country has the right to dishonor it......
Title: Re: NFT -- John Tortorella..."You will stand for the National Anthem or you will sit
Post by: Ed Vette on November 16, 2016, 01:34:56 PM
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/football/sullivan-supports-the-anthem-1.1657366 (http://www.northjersey.com/sports/football/sullivan-supports-the-anthem-1.1657366)

EAST RUTHERFORD — It was early in training camp — before 49rers QB Colin Kaepernick made a decision not to stand during the national anthem as a means of social protest — that Giants coach Ben McAdoo had offensive coordinator Mike Sullivan address the team about the importance of those minutes prior to kickoff.

Sullivan played defensive back at Army in the late-1980s, and is a graduate of the U.S. Army Airborne, Ranger and Air Assault schools.

"Based upon my military background, as you would expect, I have very, very strong feelings about the national anthem," Sullivan said.

"What it means. The liberty, the freedom and, most importantly, all of those who have served and are serving and those who will serve who provide us with that freedom. That freedom comes at a price, and I think the important thing that is often lost, and maybe recently lost, is that the military is not just the military. They are fathers, they are mothers, they are sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, and so there’s a face to them and they need to be respected and they need to be appreciated."

Kaepernick’s use of the anthem as a protest against misdeeds against minorities in this country has become a hot button issue. Sullivan said: "It’s not about politics. It’s just about showing appreciation and respect for those who made the ultimate sacrifice and those who are allowing individuals to express their opinions, which certainly that individual is free to have his views and he’s bringing some awareness to some important issues. But what I strongly disagree with is the method at that time."

The minute he decided not to vote, he became irrelevant to me.