Do you expect the return of Golladay to impact the WR corps?

[MightyGiants]

I think they don't have real trust in their passing game. The QB is a part of that. So are the wide receivers.

But if we fans can easily find examples of Jones opting to go for a 6 yard check-down when a receiver has cleanly beaten his man 25 yards downfield, I can assure you that the coaches are well aware of those and likely many more examples, too.

So I'm personally not buying this idea that the coaches think they're sitting on the next Josh Allen but can't use him the way they'd like to solely because they have a bunch of stiffs at wide receiver. I think their lack of trust in the passing offense is more widespread than that.

The part in bold puzzled me.  I mean, this Chris Pflum article was posted 3 separate times here and Chris made it clear that "seeing an open receiver" is not really a thing

I need to qualify this by saying that I'm not in the classroom when the Giants installed these plays. I can't say with certainty how many of the routes I saw open downfield weren't in the progression read and were actually clear-outs or misdirection. Likewise, I can't say if the offense is read from "shallow to deep" or "touchdown, check-down".

I will also add that two very smart former Giants (Simms and Banks) have both made it clear that they talk to the coaches about a passing play because, despite their knowledge and film study, they can't be sure of who is or isn't open without the construct of a play. 

So why make claims about "open" receivers?  I mean, even the video you posted a second time (I had posted it the first time) on the Nick Falato thread, Nick carefully qualified his claims.

[DaveBrown74]

The article doesn't absolve Jones from all missed open receivers downfield. It says the reason is not always obvious, but it also acknowledges that there have been multiple plays where receivers downfield who were open are looking for the ball or waving their hands around for it, and Jones is still checking it down. It chalks this up to either the Giants' coaches not being comfortable with him making these throws, or Jones himself not being comfortable making them. But no matter the reason, there are open guys downfield on plays when Jones is protected, and they're not getting targets. And we know that neither Daboll nor Kafka were at all averse to throwing downfield in their previous jobs.

Following on from the exceprt you quoted:

"To account for that I tried to exclude plays where the receiver seemed to simply sprint down the field and didn't appear to expect a pass, or Jones' head never turned to that side of the field. But by the same token there were also plays where receivers were looking for the ball or throwing their hands up to try and get Jones' attention, only for the ball to be thrown to an underneath route.

So we can't say precisely why the Giants are so averse to throwing the ball down-field. Perhaps Jones isn't comfortable doing so, or maybe the Giants don't want to risk potential turnovers. Whatever the reason, the plays seem to have been there where protection held up and receivers were open downfield."

[brownelvis54]

I expect the impact to be minimal. Having said that...I hope they don't try to "force" Jones to look Golladay's way just to get him involved.

[kingm56]

The part in bold puzzled me.  I mean, this Chris Pflum article was posted 3 separate times here and Chris made it clear that "seeing an open receiver" is not really a thing

I will also add that two very smart former Giants (Simms and Banks) have both made it clear that they talk to the coaches about a passing play because, despite their knowledge and film study, they can't be sure of who is or isn't open without the construct of a play. 

So why make claims about "open" receivers?  I mean, even the video you posted a second time (I had posted it the first time) on the Nick Falato thread, Nick carefully qualified his claims.

Rich, why do you believe DJ has a well below average 64 PFF rating?  Could it be he's missing open WRs?

[MightyGiants]

Rich, why do you believe DJ has a well below average 64 PFF rating?  Could it be he's missing open WRs?

Matt that grade is on par with Allen and Tua before they got someone to throw to.   Seems like a more likely answer then making unsupported claims

[uconnjack8]

The part in bold puzzled me.  I mean, this Chris Pflum article was posted 3 separate times here and Chris made it clear that "seeing an open receiver" is not really a thing

I will also add that two very smart former Giants (Simms and Banks) have both made it clear that they talk to the coaches about a passing play because, despite their knowledge and film study, they can't be sure of who is or isn't open without the construct of a play. 

So why make claims about "open" receivers?  I mean, even the video you posted a second time (I had posted it the first time) on the Nick Falato thread, Nick carefully qualified his claims.

That's also a real indictment of the validity of services like PFF, who offer people like me jobs to grade players.

[MightyGiants]

That's also a real indictment of the validity of services like PFF, who offer people like me jobs to grade players.

This is a valid point.  I will post PFF grades, but I also consider them more of a supplement than a prime source of information.

[uconnjack8]

This is a valid point.  I will post PFF grades, but I also consider them more of a supplement than a prime source of information.

I think you have mentioned a few times that they are better for some positions than others. 

[MightyGiants]

I think you have mentioned a few times that they are better for some positions than others. 

Yeah,

I think the scores along the lines are likely the most accurate.  After that, I think things get muddled because knowing the scheme and how it was coached plays a bigger role.  I do believe that the more data PFF collects the better.   I also wonder about the individual graders that PFF employs.  It almost seems like certain players get the grader's sh1t list and they will consistently get very poor grades even if the stats and what we see on the field support it.

[Painter]

Whatever may be the accuracy, or meaning, or significance of PFF Data, we will find a way to cherry-pick it when necessary to suit our purposes which too often reflect our biases. Let face it folks, objectivity is not our strong suit.

Cheers!

[Uni]

Matt that grade is on par with Allen and Tua before they got someone to throw to.  Seems like a more likely answer then making unsupported claims

You can't assume that Jones will be able to pick up his game by adding a #1 WR, this assumption is unsupported. Just because Jones isn't good now doesn't mean he will be magically better with one more player. Since Tua and Allen were in their rookie deals, they were able to evaluate without having to take a $30-$35 million gamble like the Giants would have to do with Jones. The ROI is just not there.

[T200]

The article doesn't absolve Jones from all missed open receivers downfield. It says the reason is not always obvious, but it also acknowledges that there have been multiple plays where receivers downfield who were open are looking for the ball or waving their hands around for it, and Jones is still checking it down. It chalks this up to either the Giants' coaches not being comfortable with him making these throws, or Jones himself not being comfortable making them. But no matter the reason, there are open guys downfield on plays when Jones is protected, and they're not getting targets. And we know that neither Daboll nor Kafka were at all averse to throwing downfield in their previous jobs.

Following on from the exceprt you quoted:

"To account for that I tried to exclude plays where the receiver seemed to simply sprint down the field and didn't appear to expect a pass, or Jones' head never turned to that side of the field. But by the same token there were also plays where receivers were looking for the ball or throwing their hands up to try and get Jones' attention, only for the ball to be thrown to an underneath route.

So we can't say precisely why the Giants are so averse to throwing the ball down-field. Perhaps Jones isn't comfortable doing so, or maybe the Giants don't want to risk potential turnovers. Whatever the reason, the plays seem to have been there where protection held up and receivers were open downfield."

I think that statement is more telling and more in line with what quite a few of us have been saying.

[MightyGiants]

Whatever may be the accuracy, or meaning, or significance of PFF Data, we will find a way to cherry-pick it when necessary to suit our purposes which too often reflect our biases. Let face it folks, objectivity is not our strong suit.

Cheers!

Larry,

I fear the problem far exceeds football, and it's become the norm in at least our nation.  People first have their position, belief, wish, opinion, or whatever.  Then they seek out data or evidence that will support that view. 

What has become an endangered act is the idea of looking at all the available evidence fairly and properly and THEN drawing a conclusion from that data.  We have become a nation where only being right matters, not getting it right.  I have lost count of the number of times I have seen people say, "your not right because you got something wrong in the past (or words to that effect)."

To make matters worse, the idea of changing one's views based on new evidence is now considered a charter flaw or weakness.  Open-minded became "the flip-flopper." 

I will now get off my soapbox and allow the regularly scheduled programming to resume.

[MightyGiants]

The article doesn't absolve Jones from all missed open receivers downfield. It says the reason is not always obvious, but it also acknowledges that there have been multiple plays where receivers downfield who were open are looking for the ball or waving their hands around for it, and Jones is still checking it down. It chalks this up to either the Giants' coaches not being comfortable with him making these throws, or Jones himself not being comfortable making them. But no matter the reason, there are open guys downfield on plays when Jones is protected, and they're not getting targets. And we know that neither Daboll nor Kafka were at all averse to throwing downfield in their previous jobs.

Following on from the exceprt you quoted:

"To account for that I tried to exclude plays where the receiver seemed to simply sprint down the field and didn't appear to expect a pass, or Jones' head never turned to that side of the field. But by the same token there were also plays where receivers were looking for the ball or throwing their hands up to try and get Jones' attention, only for the ball to be thrown to an underneath route.

So we can't say precisely why the Giants are so averse to throwing the ball down-field. Perhaps Jones isn't comfortable doing so, or maybe the Giants don't want to risk potential turnovers. Whatever the reason, the plays seem to have been there where protection held up and receivers were open downfield."

DB,

Chris Pflum is someone I listen to.  He is a pretty knowledgeable blogger/podcaster, but I don't think he's at the level of Nick Falato or Bobby Skinner.  I found his claim of how he worked around his accurate disclaimer flawed.  The reality is with the real issues he raised, and he simply can't negate them by looking for a guy waiving his arms.

[nb587]

In Jones defense, he was coached for 2 years by an OC who looked to get first,downs, not TDs and who didn't want Jones to turn the ball over to the point that he was very risk averse.  Overly so, in my opinion.  Jones has not been working with Kafka and company that long to completely reorient himself but he's doing it in stages.  I think we give him a little more time and see.  I'm guessing we'll see some more deep throws especially when defenses crowd the line to minimize Barkley.  Also, if Golloday had anything left in the tank, and I think he might, you might find Slayton getting single coverage and I expect more deep throws.  Schoen will know by the end of the year if he doesn't already.