Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Painter on Today at 01:43:12 PMSorry, while I understand why you might choose to suggest it, I don't agree. We are not all just fans when there are those among us who, rather than root for the team's success, feel compelled to make every relentless effort to demean someone like Daniel Jones despite being fully aware, as are we all, of the uncertainty regarding his future and with it both the challenge and consequences involved for all concerned. For such people here, it is both meanspirited and gratuitous and hardly reflects that of a true Giants fan.

Cheers!

My point being - I don't agree with you either. And that is ok.

However you should be a little nicer and not state as fact anyone not holding the same opinion of you doesn't "reflect that of a true Giants fan"....that is simply not true and is beneath what this board is all about. I would hope the moderators and the owner would agree.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 11:57:47 AMThis discussion wouldn't be necessary if every post of yours about DJ didn't reflect your extreme bias.  Like ignoring the difference in sacks rates.  Blaming the sacks on DJ. Ignoring the difference between the 7th ranked WR group and bottom 5 receiver group. 

This board has extreme bias going both ways for and against Jones. It is far from a one way ticket.

And that is ok. We are all just fans.

Like it or not, our (not one but TWO) backup QBs played markedly better than the 40 million dollar man. People will say that is because we were missing Andrew Thomas. One person doesn't make a team. The argument would hold some weight if not for the fact TWO backups played much much better and even beat an inter division rival.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 07, 2024, 07:20:07 PMI am curious: do you think the fact that Jones was working behind the worst pass protection in the league and throwing to the worst receivers (per PFF) might have skewed last year's numbers when you compare that to Lock having the 28th pass protection, but throwing the 7th best receiver group in the league?

Short answer is - no

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 05, 2024, 01:41:22 PMWhat I am expecting from him with the additions of Nabers, Theo, and the upgrades on the O line.

3,500-4,000 Yards
22-30 TD's
10-12 Int
65%
400-500 Yards rushing
95.0-98.0 RTG

I think he has to hit production and numbers like this for the Giants to keep him for the remainder of his three-year contract.

With the additions that he has, combined with him taking more chances, I believe this is within reason.

If he can do that he will be in the Pro Bowl and we will be deep in the playoffs. One can only hope

Excellent debate. It shows how dug in everyone is towards their views and that is ok. I think the point being made is a QB can in fact win with a bad Oline or receivers - ( BUT maybe not consistently is the key)...but it can be done and has been done.

Another point on having a great o-line which I think is overlooked is the fact nobody had had better Olines and receivers than Dallas for a sustained period, yet they never win. I think that is very telling to the point of how much more important the QB is.

He needs to show he can produce in the 2 minute drill both before halftime and especially at the end of the games. He has been sporadic at best in that area.

Lastly, he must win a playoff game this year and he has to beat Dallas and Philadelphia at least once each.

I think Hyatt is better than Slayton today. For some reason they didn't give him reps early and then when they did it was apparent he is a dynamic playmaker.

Slayton is ok but he still unfortunately drops too many passes in key moments.

It will be very interesting to watch the progress of both Slayton and Bellinger this season. Both are key players looking to cement their roles.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 05, 2024, 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to continue the rouse that his success was predicted on an elite Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline was anything but good.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Well, you have certainly convinced me.

Every QB has had flashes of brilliance. That is not a good argument

So McKinney and Saquon are only worth a single 4th round pick?....wow

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 02:17:19 PMI think Boogie might be a better fit in Bowen's defense in the 3-4 DE role.  Wink tended to sub out his DEs (for an edge, second DT, or another DB).  It's possible Boogie could be the DE (with Thibs or Burns being the other DE) and on obvious passing downs you have Burns and Thibs as the DEs

It will be interesting to see if this new defense generates more pressure also

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 12:12:42 PM@Jolly Blue Giant

Looking at the PFF grades, I think there could be some validity to suggestions that he wasn't a good fit for Wink's system




Boogie came into the league at 6' 3" and 275 pounds, which doesn't scream 3-tech (too light)


I also looked at his NFL.com scouting report.   One thing that was sort of interesting was this:

"He's a big dude, but he's also carrying some extra weight and will need to lean down a little bit or he's going to end up eating himself inside." -- Personnel director for NFC team

You can read the rest of his write-up here

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/boogie-basham/32004241-5314-1481-9904-6347892079b0

Rich,

I'm not very familiar with our new defensive system but my question is knowing what you know of it, do you think Boogie will be a good fit or a surprise this year?

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:33:36 AM@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.  I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will not prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.   In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.


I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

Why do I have to be dragged into your response just because I "liked" something doesn't mean every word is taken to heart as gospel.

Not sure about anyone else, but personally, when I "like" something it merely means I agree with a much of the construct but not always everything.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 01, 2024, 11:07:13 AMHi Trench,

We have had some good conversations in the past, and I don't think you have ever said he was terrible. In fact I think you have stated that you do hope he succeeds and you would root for him if he does and want to be proven wrong.

However, some critics against Daniel Jones have said he was terrible.

Within the last couple of days this comment was stated about DJ "If Jones stinks as he is very likely to do."

And this one from a few weeks ago "Well what do you want me to call them? Never in all my life do I remember a fanbase of any NY sports franchise; Football, baseball; hockey ; and Basketball so devoted to a player who so obviously just stinks! Can you name one? ... I can't.

So, as you can see some of the critics of DJ have expressed that he stinks or is terrible.

Once again not naming you, but there have been more than a few that have expressed this.

Thank you SXD