Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 07, 2024, 08:05:39 PMCamp arm

I like his pocket presence significantly more than Devitos.

Quote from: AYM on May 07, 2024, 09:30:54 PMFor what it's worth, the Giants gave up 20 more sacks than the 31st place team. It could be argued that there was a giant chasm between the Giants OL and the 28th ranked line.

You could very well be 100% right as I haven't looked at the overall pressures, rankings etc and just looked at the base ratings pff gave teams olines.

The problem though is that one qb is making pennies and one is making 8× the other qb a year. So yes does the 32nd to 28th line probably make some difference, absolutely but not enough that a guy making 8× is performing underneath a guy that shouldn't be starting.

So yes we can make all the excuses for Jones in the world as some of them are viable like the oline. Multiple backups though shouldn't look significantly better than your 40 million a year quarterback.

The fact that the media pundits, analyst, and everyone else are even discussing a backup as being a better option to a qb that is making 40 million a year is the problem.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 07, 2024, 07:20:07 PMI am curious: do you think the fact that Jones was working behind the worst pass protection in the league and throwing to the worst receivers (per PFF) might have skewed last year's numbers when you compare that to Lock having the 28th pass protection, but throwing the 7th best receiver group in the league?

Is there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you? 

I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.

Giants made a move securing Nathan Rourke after the patriots released him Monday.

Rourke was the CFL mvp in 2022 and spent the 2023 season on the Jaguars.

He threw for 3,349 yards 25 tds and 10 int in 2022 for the Canadian team. He's only 25 years old and played college football at Ohio.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/amp/giants_add_former_cfl_star_quarterback_to_roster/s1_15032_40336894

Quote from: President Rick on May 07, 2024, 02:28:29 PMwould you prefer speed with dropsies of a sure-handed 4.5 - 4.6 runner?  As long as they catch the catchable balls and break-up possible INT's, I'm happy.  Seeing the return of Homer Jones however would make my day!!!!

Most of the elite Wrs of the past 2 decades ran a 4.5.

Jones 6 Games
Att 160
Cmpl% 68
Yards 909
Tds 2
Int 6
Yards per attempt 5.7
Yards per catch 8.4
10+ yards 33
20+ yards 9
30+ yards 1


Lock 2 Games
Att 76
Cmpl % 63.4
Yards 543
Tds 3
INT 3
Yards per attempt 7.1
Yards per catch 11.3
10+ yards 19
20+ yards 10
30+ yards 3

If Lock plays in 6 instead of 2 he'd have 706 more yards, and 7 more Tds. He would have doubled Jones 10+ yard catches, tripled his 20+ yard catches and have 8 more 30+ yard catches.

One throws down field the other does not.

Quote from: GloryDays on May 06, 2024, 11:05:17 PMWith his supporting cast it illudes to great ability, if not brilliance.

uh huh

I don't think there's anything he can do. With his health concerns even if he throws for 4,000 and 30tds which is extremely unlikely he can't be trusted to stay healthy. Plus I believe Schoen and Daboll want their own guy, which also likely buys them more time, and this will be the perfect time for them to let him go.

Quote from: Ed Vette on May 05, 2024, 09:28:18 AMIf they protect Jones and he has time in the pocket, he will put up top 10-12 QB stats. I'm more optimistic of the Running attack than most of you here although it may be a drop off from Barkley. Can they protect him? They brought in a decent crop of veteran Linemen.

The bottom line is that there will be injuries and that Oline Depth concerns me. And while Jones can win games healthy, he would be foolish as they would to incorporate running plays with him. Jones also folds against good teams and in big moments.

I agree the running game will be better with a rotation of backs that run forwards.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

You asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."

All king did was give you an example of both players in their prime with horrible lines still thriving. He is one of the most knowledgeable and respectful people that post here.

We are all adults here, you've got to stop thinking everyone is attacking you with their responses. Just because someone replies either correcting you or informing you of something doesn't mean it's hostile, it's a NFL football forum, not a kids table.

You claimed king was cherry picking data when infact he was simply answering your question.

There are a ton of Qbs that you can list that played behind horrible olines and still produced at the highest levels.

Matt Stafford
Patrick Mahomes
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Peyton Manning
Deshaun Watson
Russell Wilson

These are just a few off the top of my head without doing research.

Eli Manning had a great line for about 4-5 of his 16 years, he spent 3/4th of his career behind a bad one.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 07:22:43 AMI'll grant you that point; however, that's not the point being discussed here. The point was made that high-performing Oline(s) were the most critical component to Eli's and Brady's success, during thier primes. Clearly, that statement is factually false. 

BTW, Eli was fairly consistent between 2008 and 15, regardless of his oline rankings:

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB

Age clearly caught up with him during the 2016+ seasons...

Great stuff as usual king 👊

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 08:46:22 AMYes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation.  Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings.  It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.

But that's what happens when Qbs go to a bad team, they either rise above it or they don't. I don't hear anyone going to bat for Evan Neal or any other offensive player that have equally been failed by being on a team with Daniel Jones, but it's ok for them to all be used as an excuse for him. A 6th year player who still puts up advanced stats like a backup in year 6. Just wild that some can't see Jones is a huge reason for the bad offense.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 05:24:30 PMI listed actual historic accomplishments by DJ.  Most reasonable people would consider a historic accomplishment (against a league with a 100+ year history) as "flashes of brilliance".  In what way did what you just say negate the point I made?

All of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.

Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.

As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.

Winner Pinnock, Bobby Ok, and Flott- Pinnock because he gets to stay at FS and continue to grow with Nubin at Strong. Flott because drafting Phillips gets him another Shot at boundaOK, Bobby Ok will thrive with all the talent around him on the front 7, and only get better.

Losers- Belton, Bellinger, and Gray- Drafting a safety let's Belton know that he will only get snaps if he beats Pinnock. Since Bellinger has been drafted we traded for a TE, and drafted another. I think he's the first person at risk of losing his job because Theo is a better talent now than Bellinger is now. Gray got stuck in the doghouse and never got out, maybe taking KR duties away finally will let him focus.

Is it really a flash of brilliance if Baker Mayfield, Dak and Jameis Winston are also listed?