Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Trench on Today at 12:19:36 AMCan you please point out where any of that it says "it is ALL on Jones"??

If not, please don't put words in people's mouths. There is not a fan on this forum who believes everything is Jones fault.

Can you please show me in the quotes where it doesn't say that he isn't?

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 14, 2024, 04:15:42 PMA comment that Jones "stinks" does not equate to putting all the blame on him for the Giants' shortcomings.

Here are some more quotes for you:

"Just pathetic. If they think I am paying money to watch this, they have another thing coming. No idea why they are trying so bad to make fetch happen with Jones. The guy clearly sucks."

"Also don't mind the banter. Some people just don't like to be wrong that is all. Jones stinks."

"Not to mention Zak Wilson was a back-up last year, and he is a better QB than Jones; so is Darnold for that matter."

"Whereas here, the emperor is not wearing any clothes and mara loves Daniel Jones, so we have to endure yet another year of excuses for Daniel Jones."

"It is like I am in the twilight zone when it comes to Giants fans and Daniel Jones. I cannot think of one player in my sports watching lifetime -- IN ANY SPORT-- where there was such a dedication to a player who so clearly sucks."

Quote from: Trench on May 14, 2024, 01:34:37 PMThis is factually incorrect. Not ONE PERSON has PUT "ALL the blame" on his shoulders!....not ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS DONE THAT. Ever.

Hi,

You may not be aware of this, but here is a direct quote from a poster just a few months ago, and this is what he said about DJ.

"Well what do you want me to call them? Never in all my life do I remember a fanbase of any NY sports franchise; Football, baseball; hockey ; and Basketball so devoted to a player who so obviously just stinks! Can you name one? ... I can't."

There are many more comments like this, but I think you get the point.

I also remember something Tom Coughlin said when certain players were complaining about the fans booing.

Coughlin said "Then don't give them a chance to boo."

If you play well the boos will disappear, it's that simple.

Everyone here has a different opinion regarding DJ.

And in the end it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, the only thing that matters is how he and the Giants play during the regular season.

If he plays well and the Giants start winning again, the negative and critical comments will disappear, and he will remain the starting QB.

If he plays poorly, and the team continues to lose, then he will be released and a new QB will be brought in.

We will just have to see how this transpires.

I personally think maybe this topic should be pinned and held up for the entire year so that everyone can see that CBS sports had Daniel Jones ranked as the 32nd worst QB in the entire NFL.

And

Then after the 2024 season is completed everyone will see where Daniel Jones truly ranked, and if CBS sports should ever be taken seriously again, or if they were truly right on the money?

Only time will tell.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 08, 2024, 04:49:45 PMSome around here have argued he was top-10 in 2022, largely based on his QBR that season (he was 6th and largely so due to running contribution). But to me, 2022 would not be good enough in 2024 because it would be a "top-10" season by efficiency. Again, my point was that it hinges somewhat on the "top-10" season we're talking about. If 2024 is like 2022, that "top-10" performance doesn't do the trick.

Hi,

May I ask a hypothetical question.

Let's say he puts up similar numbers to his 2022 season, and the Giants make the NFC conference finals but lose that game.

Do they bring DJ back the following year?

Curious your thoughts?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 05:33:06 PMI respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.

Hi Dave,

This is not to challenge you in any way, but I do remember there were quite a few posters saying that the Giants could actually be a better team in 2023, but their record may actually be worse.

The reason why they were saying that was because the first six games of the season were absolutely brutal, and they were.

The schedule didn't begin to soften until week seven.

By the way this doesn't justify the poor record that they had, or the year, so please carry on.

For those who are advocating for Drew Lock, and making the case that he is a better QB than Daniel Jones, I would kindly ask you to look at both players entire career stats and not just a few games.

Both players were drafted in 2019.

Here are Drew Locks career stats.

59.7% 5283 Yards 28 TD 23 Int 79.3 RTG

Now here are Daniel Jones career stats, including rushing totals.

64.3% 14,426 Yards 75 TD 40 Int 85.2 RTG

As you can see it's not even close, Daniel Jones is the superior QB.

No one can force any of you to change your mind, but you may just want to reconsider your position.

Daniel Jones will be the day one starter, while Drew Lock will be sitting on the bench.

Take care.

Quote from: LennG on May 05, 2024, 04:29:45 PMIn the other thread about Eli, if memory serves, you were sort of complaining that people were 'cheery picking' about Eli and ONE year with a bad OL. Well, aren't you guilty of the same thing when you continually bring up the ONE year Jones had a decent enough year, 2022? For the most part, in most of the other years, Jones had been bad, in fact, worse than bad, awful would be a better term.
I'm not picking on you, but this has been a constant with people who think Jones is good and all he needs is a good OL, great WRs, and a good running game to be successful. As Dave said, he really needs to change his approach to the game. He simply doesn't even look downfield anymore, he puts the ball way and runs way too often, especially for an injury-prone QB. He still stares down too many receivers and just opts to dump it off just way too often.
PLUS, who says our OL will be that much better this year? All we can do is hope.

Hi Lenn,

Thank you so much for your expressions and how you feel and thank you for saying that you are not picking on me, as I do appreciate that.

I have kind of said what I needed to say in the other thread, but I will leave you with these comments that may help to see where I am coming from.

You may feel that Daniel Jones only had one good year in 2022, but I believe he also played well in 2019, which was his rookie year. As he threw for 24 TDs to 12 Int's.

So, I would say he has had two good years, and not just one.

I would also say that in 2020, 2021, and 2023 were not good years for him, but he has only played in five seasons. 

Eli Manning on the other hand played from 2004-2018, that is eighteen years of football, so a big difference.

Do I think Daniel Jones is an elite QB? No, I do not.

But can he bounce back from last year? Absolutely.

However, considering the situation of where the Giants were picking from, I do believe that they made the right call in drafting an elite WR, to pair up with DJ, instead of taking the 4th or 5th best QB left on the board. 

That is where I stand.

However, in the end, what everyone thinks is just an opinion. The proof will be in the pudding and the eating thereof.

If Daniel Jones is too make it, this year he needs to produce, and so does the team.

However, if he doesn't produce, he is out, but, if he does produce then he will continue to be the starting QB of the New York Giants.

but only time will tell.

Please be well and take care.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 05, 2024, 02:39:41 PMMy personal view:

1. I think Jones would need to have another injury-free year like he did in 2022. Missing one game with a mild ankle sprain wouldn't be the end of the world, but he can't have another season where he misses multiple games with a significant injury, as he has in four out of his five seasons in this league.

2. The team will need to have at least a decent season. Of course, this isn't all on Jones, but given QB is the most important position, I think he'll have a hard time being brought back if they have another season with fewer than 8 or 9 wins. He'd have to have an insanely productive season and they'd need to lose a lot of 38-35, shootout type games for this to not be the case.

3. He will need to be a legitimately productive passer. Absolute bare bones minimum of 3800 passing yards and 25 passing TDs. No excuses. He's getting paid too much to be a dink and dunk, 3200 yard/15 TD guy, and they know it.

4. Ball security: Max of 11/12 INTs if his passing TDs are in the 25-29 range, and a max of 14/15 if he's above 30 passing TDs. Fumbles need to be low/mid single digits again.

5. Risk appetite: Jones will need to take more risky shots downfield and not always opt for the closest receiver. Tyrod Taylor did it last year on the same team, and with Nabers and better O linemen Jones needs to do it this year.

6. Pocket/rush awareness: Jones will have to show marked improvement in this area.


Personally, I think all of the above will need to happen for the Giants to want to keep him beyond this season. Right now I believe he is on the outside looking in. He will have to have a significantly better season than he has ever had to be brought back. The economics just don't work otherwise.

I don't think a statistical repeat of his 2022 season will be enough in year six. They gave him the contract after that year with the hope that he would build on that performance and make further strides, not that he'd settle into that productivity level for the long haul.

Dave,

By the way I like what you have presented, however may I play devil's advocate for a minute?

Let's say DJ puts up a statistical season like 2022, but the Giants go all the way to the NFC Conference Finals, but they lose.

They would be drafting either pick 29th or 30th.

If that is the case, in order to draft a new QB they would need one of the top teams to trade out.

Then the Giants would have to give up the farm to get that guy, if they are able to.

Or in this situation do you think it is wiser to hold onto DJ for another year?

Curious your thoughts?

Quote from: Trench on May 05, 2024, 12:26:16 PMExcellent debate. It shows how dug in everyone is towards their views and that is ok. I think the point being made is a QB can in fact win with a bad Oline or receivers - ( BUT maybe not consistently is the key)...but it can be done and has been done.

Another point on having a great o-line which I think is overlooked is the fact nobody had had better Olines and receivers than Dallas for a sustained period, yet they never win. I think that is very telling to the point of how much more important the QB is.

Trench,

Thank you for your comments and reasonable approach. You took into consideration both sides of the discussion without putting anyone down, and I really appreciated that, so thank you once again.

Good points about Dallas as well.

What I am expecting from him with the additions of Nabers, Theo, and the upgrades on the O line.

3,500-4,000 Yards
22-30 TD's
10-12 Int
65%
400-500 Yards rushing
95.0-98.0 RTG

I think he has to hit production and numbers like this for the Giants to keep him for the remainder of his three-year contract.

With the additions that he has, combined with him taking more chances, I believe this is within reason.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 05, 2024, 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines.. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee.""  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent.  What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines?  In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ).  So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit.  I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to perpetuate a false-narrative that his success was predicted on an elite (or even good) Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline stunk.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Here are my answers to your objections and I will do so in civil way, all I ask is if you can please do the same to me, thank you.

Here is your question to me "Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know."

Here is what you specifically said "Tom Brady, it's a complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career."

Here are what the facts show regarding Tom Brady's offensive line rankings during his career.

Bucs O line

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

Patriots O line

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

You said it was a complete myth that Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.

What I just showed is that it wasn't a myth, it was the complete opposite. For the majority of his career he has been playing behind an elite level offensive line.

If you want to say that for a year or two Eli Manning and Tom Brady were able to produce at a high level under a bad offensive line, I'm willing to concede that point, but they both needed star WR's and TE's to make that happen.

However, the premise that Eli Manning and Tom Brady consistently played behind poor offensive lines, I respectfully disagree.

If you consider DJ's best years were behind the 17th and 18th ranked O lines, and his worst years the 30th, 31st, and 30th, then he has always been behind an atrocious O line.

I also consider Eli's prime years to be right out of the gate starting in 2005 when he was a young man, and during those first four years he played behind a top five offensive line, which I shared in my previous posts.

My fundamental point is this, Eli Manning nor Tom Brady would not have been able to sustain years of high-level production in the passing game without a good offensive line, nothing more, nothing less.

2013 and 2017 regarding Eli Manning prove my point.

In any event you can have the last word, as I really have nothing more to say.

I'm going to relax for the rest of the day.

I disagree with PFN's ranking.

I'm expecting a bounce back year from Daniel Jones. He will be pushing the ball farther, because he learned what Taylor did during his tenure.

Nabers will be explosive, the O line has been improved especially in pass protection, and Theo will be a nice addition.

Offensive production will improve this year, and DJ will have a good year.