I wouldn't count Daniel Jones out, his obituary was written before

[kingm56]

Matt, 


MVP is reserved for one or two QBs.   You know that.   That is not remotely the same as potentially being in the top ten.  @tonka was right, once DJ enters the conversation, all naunce is lost.

Rich,

When you engage in obfuscation, it's more telling than just answering the question.  H explicitly used the term MVP-caliber; the key work is CALIBER.  Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, etc, etc have never won MVP awards.  Yet, as top 10/5 QBs, they are absolutely considered MVP-caliber QBs and have received MVP votes/consideration.  More than one or two QBs earn MVP votes every year; just like more than one or two player earns Heisman votes.  I can name at least 8 QBs right now who have earned MVP votes and thus are considered MVP-caliber...

I'm shocked I have to define the word caliber to you.... 

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

When you engage in obfuscation, it's more telling than just answering the question.  H explicitly used the term MVP-caliber; the key work is CALIBER.  Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, etc, etc have never won MVP awards.  Yet, as top 10/5 QBs, they are absolutely considered MVP-caliber QBs and have received MVP votes/consideration.  More than one or two QBs earn MVP votes every year; just like more than one or two player earns Heisman votes.  I can name at least 8 QBs right now who have earned MVP votes and thus are considered MVP-caliber...

I'm shocked I have to define the word caliber to you.... 

Matt,

Look, I have addressed the slanderous attack on my character.  No amount of spin is going to dispute what I said.  I am done, moving on.  I don't want threads about Daniel Jones to be dragged down into the gutter. I hope you and your other critics of Jones share that desire or will at least respect my wishes.   We should be able to talk about our team's QB in a respectful manner and not take potshots or, encourage those potshots by liking them.

[H-Town G-Fan]

@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.

It was a criticism of a comment you made broadly and incorrectly categorizing those who have a differing opinion from yours. I can't stop you from considering that your character. But we've had a similar conversation before--years ago--and I don't know that we've made progress on this topic since then.

I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.  In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.
[/i]

I guess this part--quoting me back tomyself in an attempted "gotcha!"--is supposed to be a reciprocal attack on my "character." But my ego is not so entwined with my comments on a digital football message board that I take it as such. If the implication is that I've acted hypocritically, I am certainly guilty of that at times. But even with fresh eyes of the morning, I don't see it here. If you do... well that's fine.

Because you mentioned it multiple times now, I guess I should clarify (though my comments were Waterford-clear): you did not suggest that Jones would have a season like an MVP candidate. But I also never said you did. A holistic reading of the lone MVP comment you've focused in on would realize that it comes immediately after I stated that I don't see Jones being the long-term solution for the Giants at QB. Read together, along with the following comment that he could improve marginally on 2022, is a pretty simple story encapsulating my opinion.

I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

I fear that people having different opinions than you makes you feel "more right." For me, I usually turn to introspection or critical thinking about my position (like I've show above).

[AZGiantFan]

Jones threw down the field in Shurmur's offense and in Duke. His downfield passing according to advanced metrics was really good.

I would suspect with a Bracillo coached OL the guy who took average lines with NE and an injury riddled Raiders line last year to top 10-12 finishes gets these guys playing sound cohesively and much more technically sound as unit.

I heard an football guy once say you build your passing game like a basketball team. It's not a perfect comparison obviously but I love the analogy. Theo Johnson is your Center, Hodgins is your Power forward, Hyatt/Slayton are your 'undersized' speedy small forwards, Nabers is your electric do-it-all shooting guard, and Wan'Dale is your shifty jitterbug Point guard. A lot of gameplans can be formulated when you have so many receiving options with varied size and strengths to their games.

Jones has never had a WR corps like this not even close. In fact he has never had a receiving threat that was pro bowl caliber like ever. The walking corpses of Golden Dome Tate, Kenny 'on a Holiday' Golladay, Darren 'Hit A' Wall-er or Kyle the Red-nosed Reindeer doesn't count.

In theory, this should be a drastically better receiving group and a drastically better offensive line , if nothing because of coaching alone. No rookies starting on this line either.

Again, I present all this not because I guarantee Jones balls-out but quite simply now there is finally a reasonable opportunity in place that he could.

Just want to say that I completely agree with the notion that you are an excellent addition to our little band.  Love the basketball analogy.  And the nicknames for our past and present failurs.s.  Well done.

[MightyGiants]

I will say one thing I would like to see from Jones this season.  I want to see his yards per attempt exceed 7.0 this season.   YPA is a pretty good measure of how a QB is driving the ball downfield, and ideally, you like to see that number be higher than 7.   I recently saw a statistic that Jones has never exceeded that mark in his college or pro career (he came close with a 6.8).   Nabers is DJ's first true YAC generator (although Robinson can also be pretty good at that).  With hopefully better protection and with a couple of receivers who can add to DJ's passing yardage, hopefully, he can finally exceed that 7.0 mark

[AZGiantFan]

Rich,

If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it. 
 

And if you are being honest you will admit that there are posters who have written Jones off in no uncertain terms.  As an example I present @Jclayton92 as the poster boy of this group.  He may even be right, but I'm pretty sure he would agree that this is his position.  OTOH, I think you'd be hard-pressed to name any poster who is as sold out on Jones definitely emerging as a franchise QB - it is couched more as a possibility, generally on the hope that the OL massively improves.  But no one has said he will rise to a top 5/10 QB with anything like the certitude of the detractors.

[Thegratefulhead]

Still don't care much about the stats. I am interested in wins, don't care what those wins look like.  Special teams driven would be fine.  Win more than you lose. Yay me. 

Look at ELi, Tua and Allen.  The year before they got the receiver, the year after. I believe Nabers is a better prospect than Diggs, Waddle or OBJ were.  I think he is actually a better fit for the system. He is like an ELITE RB with the ball in his hands. 

I think the trade up for Maye was always diversion. NE needed QB, therefore needed to be blown away.  We absolutely knew that and CHOSE not to blow them away.  Again, did we REALLY try to trade up or were we trying to get Minnesota to take a QB ahead of us?

[sxdxca38]

This is an INCORRECT assessment of those who are questioning Daniel Jones. Speaking for myself, it was not said he is "terrible, or middling and no possibility of having success!"....actually those who are negative on Jones have stated QUITE the opposite!....we are still rooting for the guy and feel he is a good QB but not a franchise QB. Posts like that make me sincerely give pause.

Hi Trench,

We have had some good conversations in the past, and I don't think you have ever said he was terrible. In fact I think you have stated that you do hope he succeeds and you would root for him if he does and want to be proven wrong.

However, some critics against Daniel Jones have said he was terrible.

Within the last couple of days this comment was stated about DJ "If Jones stinks as he is very likely to do."

And this one from a few weeks ago "Well what do you want me to call them? Never in all my life do I remember a fanbase of any NY sports franchise; Football, baseball; hockey ; and Basketball so devoted to a player who so obviously just stinks! Can you name one? ... I can't.

So, as you can see some of the critics of DJ have expressed that he stinks or is terrible.

Once again not naming you, but there have been more than a few that have expressed this.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

And if you are being honest you will admit that there are posters who have written Jones off in no uncertain terms.  As an example I present @Jclayton92 as the poster boy of this group.  He may even be right, but I'm pretty sure he would agree that this is his position.  OTOH, I think you'd be hard-pressed to name any poster who is as sold out on Jones definitely emerging as a franchise QB - it is couched more as a possibility, generally on the hope that the OL massively improves.  But no one has said he will rise to a top 5/10 QB with anything like the certitude of the detractors.

I really hate to jump in on this debate and add a kick to a dead horse. I stand up and admit I have a lot of faith in DJ and believe he can be a great QB...so if you're looking for a believer...here I am!

A meaningless term derived from pundits, beat-writers, and fans alike is the oft-used and misused term, "franchise QB". In political discussions concerning the economy, it is the equivalent of the debaters on one side of the issue to wear "blinkers" (the eye coverings with a peephole that cover a horse's eyes so he won't be spooked - google it if you are unfamiliar with them) and have a "Zero-Sum" mentality (i.e., belief that there is a hard-line, limited amount of money in the world or country, for all to fight over, blah, blah, blah...because it is static instead of variable and growing...which makes no sense because of population growth, etc. In the real world, money is more a concept than actual currency, but I digress). Such is the problem with fans who believe a team is a one-man show, and get that one man, and nothing else matters

There is such a thing as a "dynasty" (Oakland A's, Cincy Reds, Yanks, Celtics, Steelers, Patriots, and lately the Chiefs), but for all those who believe those dynasties happened because of a single player on a team of many players, is stuck in the "zero sum" mentality. To them, Tom Brady would have won 7 Super Bowls whether or not his coaches and players on the Patriots were even there. To them, Brady would have won 7 SBs with the Browns, or the Commanders, the Cardinals, the Chargers, etc., etc. That's because the ONLY thing that matters is a QB

So...a "franchise QB" is actually a "good QB" on a great team (typically a "dynasty") with great management, great coaches, great players all around, and great role players

Like it or not, DJ has never played behind an adequate NFL offensive line. He has never had above average receivers. He has never had continuity in head coaches, offensive coordinators, or QB coaches. The scheme he was supposed to learn, changed by the time he learned it...so he has had to start over, again and again

Impatient fans think there is an instant fix to a struggling team...usually a "franchise QB". To call it short-sighted would be a conciliatory use of the word

Bottom line: please get behind the team and exercise a little patience as this team is being built one piece at a time under assumingly good leadership. It can happen. It happened with the Knicks recently once they abandoned trying to build a team by overpaying aging vets. Shoen is NEVER going to make a decision on the QB because he trusts fans' opinions (or would even waste his time paying attention to it). And no amount of arguing is ever going to change a fan's opinion among other fans. So why do we go through this never-ending debate that's been going on for years now...on a daily basis. Your opinion nor my opinion changes nothing and never will...and the front office doesn't care that you even have an opinion

]

[Jclayton92]

I am a diehard NY Giants fan and I root for the team including DJ as much as anyone including defending him on multiple occasions and hoping he plays well.

The problem though is that we've been in this rinse and repeat cycle for half a decade now and nothing has changed.

Have we really made much progress?
Does this team even have an identity?

I think most teams go as far as their Qb takes them, and the team forms around the Qb as they are typically the key to their success. At this point I have seen nothing  in 5 years to say that Jones can make others around him better, if anything players play down to his level as opposed to blossoming. Slayton, Wandale, and Hyatt would be extremely exciting pieces to another team that are floundering on this team.

Under ideal or perfect circumstances Jones can be a top 15 Qb but I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect situation in the NFL. In today's game you either have a GUY or you don't and currently based on previous seasons we don't have that guy on the roster.

Would it make my NY Giants Fandom easier if Jones was the guy, absolutely, would I love for him to throw 4500 yards 35 tds and 10 ints and blow us away, you bet. I just don't think that is realistic currently and that's why I think we should move forward to find a guy that can do those things for us.

[Trench]

Hi Trench,

We have had some good conversations in the past, and I don't think you have ever said he was terrible. In fact I think you have stated that you do hope he succeeds and you would root for him if he does and want to be proven wrong.

However, some critics against Daniel Jones have said he was terrible.

Within the last couple of days this comment was stated about DJ "If Jones stinks as he is very likely to do."

And this one from a few weeks ago "Well what do you want me to call them? Never in all my life do I remember a fanbase of any NY sports franchise; Football, baseball; hockey ; and Basketball so devoted to a player who so obviously just stinks! Can you name one? ... I can't.

So, as you can see some of the critics of DJ have expressed that he stinks or is terrible.

Once again not naming you, but there have been more than a few that have expressed this.

Thank you SXD

[Trench]

@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.  I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will not prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.   In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.


I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

Why do I have to be dragged into your response just because I "liked" something doesn't mean every word is taken to heart as gospel.

Not sure about anyone else, but personally, when I "like" something it merely means I agree with a much of the construct but not always everything.