Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 07:50:00 AMRich,

If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it. 
 

Matt, 


MVP is reserved for one or two QBs.   You know that.   That is not remotely the same as potentially being in the top ten.  @tonka was right, once DJ enters the conversation, all naunce is lost.

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 06:20:37 AMWhat does Daniel Jones need to show you this year to prove that he's "the guy?"

Let's say he miraculously stays healthy all year, throws for 4000 yards, 35 touchdowns to 15 ints...do you trust that he's "arrived" and it's the new normal? I'm not sure I would. The eye test matters. I need to see things in his mechanics and how he responds to situations that raw metrics cannot capture. 

I agree; I think setting statistical goals to decide his fate would be less than ideal.   DJ's performance will need to be properly evaluated in context.

@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.  I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

QuoteI don't consider Jones magically playing like an MVP-caliber candidate to be realistic. It's possible he replicates 2022--maybe even marginally exceeds it

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.   In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.

QuoteWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality.

I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 30, 2024, 06:43:28 PMClearly those who think Jones is this really good, franchise QB who has been a victim of circumstance are not going to change their minds about that, and those who think he is a middling talent aren't going to either.

This is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues.  Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet.  They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022.   On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.

https://x.com/talkingiants/status/1785420346864140749?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 30, 2024, 04:48:59 PMJones can't stay healthy either and his production has been horrible yet you're not advocating for him to lose his job, but instead listing reasons why he'll blossom in year 6.

I have to say, if Jones proves you wrong, the size of the crow you will be eating will be record breaking.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 30, 2024, 03:53:11 PMIs it because his pay is inconsistent with his level of production?

He is a player who can't stay healthy (only 12 games last season) and is often not 100% due to injury.  He is also a player whose stats and play are declining with age.

QuoteAnd who exactly is going to replace Waller's production?

Bellinger and Theo Johnson

QuoteIf it was that easy to replace, why did Bellinger not do so when Waller was out?

Bellinger seemed to suffer a sophomore slump.  Hopeful he rounds back into his rookie form.

Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 03:51:34 PMPerhaps, but perhaps not. Look at Parcells types - coached on the fly with his gut because he knew his players intestinal fortitude and managing pressure situations. Stats can't show that.

Baseball is a great example of stats and analysis beginning to morph too far and what works in regular season usually doesn't play near as big a role in post season.

Every NFL team now has an analytics department.  Analytics is just a fancy word for using statistics.  Even old timers often used stats; the stats were just a bit less refined than today.  HOF GM Bill Polian used stats all the time as did the late great Gil Brandt

Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 03:43:41 PMAgreed.

Stats don't always show the true story.

It really depends on how stats are used.  If used properly, they can be quite helpful in learning things and double-checking things.   

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 30, 2024, 03:28:26 PMWaller was top-10 in TE YPG. He's still an effective weapon, despite arguments that the Giants have no receivers. If he needs more time to decide (within reason), let him have it.

How much of a difference do you think Waller's 46 yards per game made?

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 30, 2024, 01:48:34 PMI live in a very rural section of the state, yet I am within a half hour drive of Cornell University, Binghamton University, SUNY Cortland, Ithaca College, SUNY Broome, and Tompkins Cortland Community College and a couple of specialty colleges

If I want to drive 45 minutes, I am at Syracuse University, LeMoyne University, and other community colleges and specialty college

In the last year though, two colleges within 45 mile of me have announced they are closing: Cazenovia College and now, Wells College. Three years ago, Davis College closed in Binghamton. This is disappointing to me as I've been blessed to be surrounded by high quality bastions of education, even though I live in the boonies where Amish in their wagons, snowmobiles, bald eagles overhead, coyotes howling at night, and grazing cows are more common than most rural areas, and far be it to find taxis, buses, or concrete buildings around here. Oh well...a lot of change is usually good. Closing quality schools is not one of them

Losing two very fine educational institutions in a span of one year sucks! 

Covid seems to have had an impact on smaller colleges.  Colleges made a lot of their money on dorm rooms and the like (which are run at a profit).   When colleges were remote, that income stream was taken away.  Even with the dorms reopening, more students seem to opt for online or remote learning over in-person.

My mother still works part-time for a small university in NJ.  It's struggling badly, and from what she tells me, it wouldn't surprise me if it goes belly up in the next couple of years.

Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 02:02:17 PMOk since you feel the need to be aggressive, I simply read Mighty chart very differently is all. You all have your mind made up and continue to push false narratives and that's ok. Others feel opposite and that's ok too. Not sure what you mean by "keep giving the game away??"....

If the argument that our 2 backups outplayed Jones simply because Andrew Thomas was not available for Jones then I really don't know what to tell you. What I do know is we played much better with the backups (than with Jones). That is a fact.

If your argument is one person (Thomas) really makes that much of a difference, I would ask you why then you won't hold Jones as an individual to the same standard?

Trench,

In all fairness, there is only one way to read the chart.  Factually speaking, even though Jones, Taylor, and DeVito played for the same team, the chart clearly shows (there is no room for interpretation) that the three of them faced very different situations.  So, while it's technically not wrong to suggest that two backups played better than Jones, it's not accurately describing the situation.   Two backups played better in much better conditions, which would be a far more appropriate way to say that.

I am not trying to dissuade you from believing that Jones is a poor quarterback, but I do think we should all try to be fair and accurate in how we portray the facts of the situation.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 30, 2024, 02:00:22 PMA couple of things I've read this past year:

1) Drake is DJ 2.0, except Drake was throwing to potential NFL receivers, whilst DJ was throwing to future doctors, surgeons, lawyers, nuclear engineers, and scientists

2) The tangibles between Drew Lock and JJ McCarthy are eerily similar, the intangibles, not so much

Regardless, I believe Daboll calls the shots concerning which players see the field. If Lock shows real substance and wows a few times during training, and DJ seems to struggle, I imagine Daboll puts in who he feels is the best of the two

If both show excellent form, throwing, aptitude, etc., or are both average looking, then I imagine DJ gets the nod because of his salary and starting experience

I see the possibility for Lock in the same light you do, Ric

https://x.com/rydunleavy/status/1785359350485114945

https://x.com/T_Nubin27/status/1785361878559985665