Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 01:52:01 AMExpecting our O-Line to improve to average is putting a LOT of faith in the new O-Line coach.

Last year, we felt the Giants offense could take a step up.  We hoped that rookie JMS would play well and Neal would get his act together.  While I was optimistic, the old saying, "hope is not a substitute for a plan" kept playing in my head.

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 06:50:21 AMDon't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

No doubt, Tonka.  I was merely responding to false-narrative that Brady and Manning required high-performing Olines to be successful.  Cruz was as integral to the Giants' success as JPP, but no player was as important as Eli...what a great year he had!

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...
 
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.


It's complete myth that Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the online was bad.  During that span, Brady continued to play at an AP/MVP level, winning more SBs.
 

Here's an exert:
2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MFP/AP/SP Winner regardless of his protection.

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli and Brady reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Don't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

Strands #62
"The horror"
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Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 03, 2024, 10:20:38 AMWhat is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line.

Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers.

It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense.

Did you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was able to overcome terrible oline play
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to giving up just 16 sacks
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB role in that stat; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

George Young ran the team as a dictator. For better or worse. In effect, the NFL took over the Giants franchise in 1979 after "The Fumble" because Wellington Mara had run it into the ground with 15 years of mismanagement and awful decision-making and his nephew Tim, Jr., had to step in and block Wellington's rule. Wellington and his side of the family owned 50% of the franchise and Tim's family (as the son of Wellington's sister) owned the other 50%. Pete Rozelle essentially forced Wellington to hire Young as a GM and to become a figurehead signing checks and hanging out on the field with the players while Young ran the show. That went really well for about 10 years until Young lost his touch in the 1990s, especially when he drafted Dave Brown and cut Phil Simms about 2-3 years too soon (though he did manage to draft Michael Strahan and Tiki Barber before retiring). Accorsi wasn't a great GM but he drafted Eli and Tom Coughlin was hired as HC during his tenure (against Accorsi's desires, he and Coughlin didn't really get along). By then, the Maras were once again involved in decision-making.

The Giants ownership is an odd structure. John Mara is not the owner. He and his brother Chris are part co-owners, and their side of the Mara family owns 50% of the team. The other 50% is owned by the Tisch family, which bought that share from Tim Mara, Jr.'s family. For me, the problem begins once the ownership and professional side are mixed. For instance, Chris Mara is both a Giants executive and a co-owner. Which means, essentially, that he can never be fired. And John Mara cannot be fired as team president, though he is clearly incompetent at his job.

The Giants have been a bad team since 2012 because, essentially, the owners have made a string of poor hires at both the GM position (Gettleman, who wasn't a puppet, just bad), and head coach (McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, while the jury is out on Daboll). It's as simple as that. 

Connections
Puzzle #328
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Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 03, 2024, 11:28:44 AMI don't think he interferes with decisions so much as he just can't shut up.

This.

John Mara is what the kids now call a "nepo baby". He's where he is because the job fell into his lap as Wellington's son (and Wellington inherited HIS role from HIS daddy). He literally has nothing else to do besides the Giants. No real job. No outside business of his own. So he talks. A lot.

I was thinking the same thing myself yesterday with Neal Young's song in my head. Unfortunately somehow this will turn into a political thread, Lenn.

Quote from: LennG on May 03, 2024, 08:36:17 PMI feel so bad for Sham. He was a great horse but against Secretariat, he just couldn't compete.

Same thing with Alydar, who came second to Affirmed is each of his Triple Crown victories.