For the last two years, I have tried to evaluate individual talent of each NFC East roster to objectively predict thier final NFC East rankings. Below is my latest effort. Each player is given a score (1 through 5) and ranked from 1-to-4 based on a relative comparison with thier NFC East Counterpart.
* Note – 1st and 2nd year players are ranked based on objectionable data and potential to achieve PB/AP statues.
Rankings:
5 = All Pro (top 5 at position)
4 = Multi Pro Bowl (top 10 at his position)
3 = Average
2 = Below Average
1 = JAG
QB
- Hurts (5.0) – Hurts was a viable MVP candidate until getting injured last year; he's a 2x Pro Bowler and class of the NFC...clear cut #1
- Prescott (4.0) – He edges out DJ (for now) as his accolades clearly place him above DJ as this point. Dax's a 2x Pro Bowler who's consistently a top 5 passer.
- Jones (3.75) – Above average QB who could be top 3 in a weak NFC QB class.
- Howell (2.25) – no comment required...he's a distant fourth...
RB
- Barkley (5.0) – When healthy, he's the best in the division, especially with his improved pass blocking.
- Pollard (4.0) – He's quietly been Dallas best Rb for multiple seasons now; he can run and catch the ball well; in fact, the gap between Pollard and Barkley is not as wide as you think.
- Robinson Jr (3.5) – 3d round pick who returned from a gunshot wound to have a decent rookie campaign; he's a bruiser/savvy runner who typically falls forward for positive yards. He's not overly fast, but has good twitch and innate abilities to find holes.
- Swift (3.5) – Good RB who can catch the ball; however, in 3 years, he's never played a full season
WR1
- AJ Brown (4.5) – Big/Fast multi PB and AP WR...he's clearly the best in the division
- Terry MCLaurin (4.0)– Grossly underrated WR...he's played for bad QB in all 4 seasons, yet has managed to eclipse the 1K yard barrier in 3 of 4 seasons; his rookie season he was 40 yards shy, despite playing in just 13 games
- CeeDee Lamb (4.0) - Eclectic WR who had monster 2022...he could be the Divisions best WR by seasons end; McLaurin gets the bump over CeeDee as the forms has played with an PB QB, while the latter has been saddled with below-avg signal callers
- Isaiah Hodgins (2.75) – I like Hodgins; he has good size, hands and knack for finding open holes in zone coverages. Yet, there's a Giant (see what I did there) between the Giants WR and their division foes
WR2
- Devonta Smith (4.0) – Electric/game-changing WR who despite playing at 170lbs has proven durable. He could be the Eagles best WR by seasons end
- Jahan Dotson (3.5) – Had a fairly successful rookie campaign, despite playing in just 12 games and multiple below-avg-qbs. This 1st Round pick has explosive speed and good hands.
- Brandin Cooks (3.5) – Cooks has been a good WR for 9 seasons now, accumulating 6x 1K rec yard seasons during that period; however, he'll be 30 years old this year and playing for 5th team in 9 years.
- Durius Slayton (3.25) – Fast WR who will consistently give you 700+ yards a season; he drops the ball too much and is what he is at this point...
WR3
- Michael Gallup (3.25) – When healthy, Gallop has #2, if not #1 wr abilities; however, that's been the issues over the last 2 years...he's rarely healthy. Regardless, he's till has more abilities than the traditional #3 Wr.
- Curtis Samuel (3.0) – A 6 year veteran, Samuels has quietly had a good career; at 5,11/195 lbs, he's a prototypical slot WR. He has good hands and finds area in the zones; however, he's not electric and won't get a lot of YAC yards. He is a solid pro who adds value to the lineup
- Parris Campell (3.0) – Campell was did little during his first 3 seasons, having only amassed 34 catches/360 yard. Last year he was given a chance to start and responded with 63 catches for 623 yards. Parris is extremely fast (4.3) and athetletic; however, he doesn't run the entire route tree; his production has yet to match his athletic abilities.
- Wuez Watkins (2.75) – A 2020 6th round pick, Watkins has blazing speed (4.35) but doesn't run very crisp routes. He's solid #3 options, having amassed 1,107 in two years as starter. Last year he was a bit of disappointment as his speed didn't translate to production.
TE
- Dallas Goedert (3.75) – Goedert is an NFL Top 5 TE who blocks as well as he catches; at 6'5/260, he's effectively another T with soft hands – his 77 PFF grade is a reflection of his all-around abilities.
- Darren Waller (3.75) – Waller is the best catcher of the group, but is 3 years and 2 injuries removed from his former top-tier status. At 31, he's unlikely to capture his former elite pass catching status; he's also a below-average blocker, who's more WR than TE, which is reflective of his 72 PFF rating.
- Luke Schoonmaker (3.0) – Although Jake Ferguson (2021 4th round pick) is listed as their starter, the Cowboys did not spend a 2nd round pick on Schoonmaker for him to sit on the bench; he's big (6'5/250) with good speed and hands, who can also block. He was a difference-maker for Mich and in 2-years, could be the divisions best TE; however, he needs to earn it first...
- Logan Thomas (2.75) – Avg TE who can block and catch; however, he has issues staying healthy
LT
- Andrew Thomas (4.75) – Has over taken Tyron Smith mantle as the division's best LT; Thomas is an excellent pass-protector and good run-blocker who is rarely penalized...he earned his 2d team AP status
- Jordan Mailata (3.5) – At 6'8/370, Mailata is a monster of a man, who has better fluid movement than you would expect. However, his very good 77 PFF rating is more of a byproduct of his overpowering run blocking than pass-protection. Concerning the latter, he does struggle to get out of his sets and establish himself, which resulted in 6 sacks allowed and 7 penalties. Still, make no mistakes, he's been a very good LT for 4 years now...can't believe he was a 7th round pick.
- Charles Leno Jr (3.5) –Another former 7th round pick, who's had a very good 9 year NFL career with a PB to his credit. He slowed a bit last season but is still a very effective LT.
- Tyron Smith (3.0) – I absolutely hate placing this future HoF in this spot; how, he has significant back issues and hasn't played a full-season in 7 years; even when he did play last season, he was a shell of his former self. Still, despite playing in the NFL for 12 seasons, he's just 32 years old...you just have to wonder who much his body can stand...
LG
- Tyler Smith (3.5) – A massive G who was Dal 1st Round pick last season, started all 17 games. Showing versatility, he was forced to play LT last year with Tyron Smith injury. He filled in admirably, but struggled with speed rushers, which resulted in a NFL leading 13 penalties and 6 sacks allows. Still, for a Rookie player who played out-of-position, he had an effective rookie campaign, as indicated by his 72 PFF rating. Returning to this natural position (assuming T. Smith stays healthy), he's poised for a really good 2d season. Dallas just has a knack for drafting OL....
- Landon Dickerson (3.25) - Is a big, imposing Guard who's a crushing run blocker and effective pass protector. This 2021 former 2d round pick has a chance to be a really good G, but he must reduce his NFL leading 14 penalties. Still, he only allowed a single sack in 1,100 snaps. He's good, but needs to improve to climb this list.
- Ben Bredeson (2.75) – Below avg-starter who won't embarrass you. I suspect the Giants will look to upgrade this position in 2024; until then, Bredeson is their best option.
- Saahdiq Charles (1.50)- Another big Guard who struggled last year in limited snaps, which is reflective of his 44 PFF rating. A backup prior to this season, the Commanders are hoping their former 4th round pick develops into an effective starter, which seems unlikely.
C
- Jason Kelce (5.0) – Is a future HoF and still the class of the division, and NFL. At 35, he showed no signs of slowing down, as indicated by his 1st Team AP selection and 89 PFF rating. In short, in the NFL East, there's Jason Kelce and everyone else....
- John Michael Schmitz Jr (3.5) – Although he hasn't played a single snap, I'm giving him the #2 rating based on potential, and because the other 2 Centers are average to below-average starters; JMS has legit potential to be more
- Tyler Biadasz (3) – A 4th round pick out of Wisconsin, Baidasz has been an effective C. At 6'3/320, he's bigger than your prototypical center and struggles to in this sets, which results in him getting beat, or needing help in pass protection. He is an effective run-blocker though.
- Nick Gates (2.75) – Gates is scrappy, but doesn't have the physical gifts to be a +run blocker or pass protection; concerning the latter, he uses positioning, vice strength, which proves effective to preventing sacks, but often leads to him allowing push from the middle of the pocket. His consistent high 50s and low 60s PFF rating are well-earned...
RG
- Zack Martin (5.0) – Another future HoF who is still playing at an elite level; last year, he made 1st Team AP team...his 6th. Until proven otherwise, he's the gold standard. The talent gap between Martin and everyone else is massive!
- Cam Jurgens (3.0) – was Phili 2022 2nd round pick and was drafted to play center; however, Kelce keeps kicking-out All-Pro seasons; so, Jurgens will play out-of-position this season. At 303lb,s he's lite to play the RG; although, he has really good speed for pulls, which Phili likes to employ. Simialar to JMS, he gets the #2 ranking based on potential, and because the other two RG are below AVG. Seriously, there's Martin and everyone else...
- Mark Glowinski (3.0) – A quality pro, who will never be more than an avg-to-slightly-below-avg player. He won't embarrass you and provides quality play.
- Sam Cosmi (2.75) – A 2021 second round pick, Cosmi was originally drafted to play RT; however, while out with an injury, the Commanders got better play from career journeyman Andrew Whyle, and elected to keep the latter at RT. This year, Cosmi will get a chance to play G. He has the tools to be really good; however, he's yet to realize that potential.
RT
- Lane Johnson (5.0) – At 33, Johnson produced another First-Team AP performance and made his 4th Pro Bowl! He's remains one of the NFL's best RT.
- Terence Steele (3.25) – A quality, albeit unspectacular T, Steel was an UDFA who endured to a terrible rookie campaign to punching well-above his draft status last season. His quality 74 PFF rating is reflective of his 2022 efforts. He also provides depth as he's played both Left and Right tackle. An improving player, he gets the nod over Neal.
- Evan Neal (2.75) – There's no sugar coating this, Neal had a terrible rookie campaign, giving up 7 sacks and 7 penalties in 800 snaps. He has the physical tools to be the divisions best RT; however, until he displays it, he's below Steele. Seriously, his 44 PFF rating was well earned; yet, Tackles, more than most positions, take time to develop....I believe Neal will be the divisions best RT in a few years.
- Andrew Wylie (2) – Career journey...JAG
Offensive Rankings
Eagles #1=6; #2=3; #3=0; #4=2
Cowboys #1=3; #2=3; #3=4; #4=1
Giants #1=2; #2=2; #3=5; #4=2
Commanders #1=0; #2=3; #3=2 #4=6
*The Eagles have 6 of the NFC East best players at thier respective positions
Average Offensive Player Rankings
#1 PHL 3.9
#2 DAL 3.6
#3 NYG 3.4
#4 WFT 2.7
LDE
- DeMarcus Lawrence (4.0) – Age is beginning to catch up with this 10-year vet, and he's only had 2 double-digit sack season; his last was 4-years ago. Still, he's among the league leaders in pressures and his 78 PFF rating and Pro Bowl selection are nothing to sneeze at; he's still the best DE in the division, at least for one more year.
- Brandon Graham (4.0) – It's hard to believe, but Graham is entering his 14-season; yet, he's still putting up Pro Bowl numbers, including 13 sacks and an 89 PFF rating. He does not play every down, and his more of situational pass-rusher these days. Still, he's a very good LDE.
- Chase Young (3.25) – After winning DRoY and earning a PB selection his rookie year, he's done virtually nothing. In fact, he's only played in 11 of 34 games and has nowhere near the burst he once had. He gets a slightly above average rating based on potential, which could fall to below average next season.
- A'Shawn Robinson (2.75) – Career Journeyman who won't offer any dynamic play, but maybe an effective end in a 3-4 Def; he'll be ask to fill his gap, an control the edge, which his size may allow him to do.
LDT/NT
- Dexter Lawrence (5.0) – Absolute stud player who's been good since his rookie season; now, he's top 5 at his position.
- Daron Payne (4.0) – Pro Bowl Tackle who recorded 11 sacks last season; however, he's a better pass rusher than run-stuff, which accounts for his 63 PFF rating. Lawrence is clearly better...
- Jalen Carter (3.25) – Was the #9 overall pick this draft; he was an absolute stud at Georgia, whose game projects well into the NFL. It stinks that Phili was able to add this top 10 talent to their roster; still, hasn't played a down in the NFL to project a near PB-type rating
- Johnathan Hankins (2.25) – Was once a good DT; however, in his 11th year he's on his 4th team in as many years and hasn't recorded a sack in over 3 seasons. His well below-average 40'ish PFF ratings are indicative of his current standing. He's the clear cut #4 here...
RDT/RE
- Jonathan Allen (4.5) – Equally adept at stopping the run and pass-rushing, he's a pro-bowl DT who easily top 8 at his position.
- Leonard Williams (3.75) – Continues to be a good DT who can also play End; IMO, some fans overvalue his abilities. Regardless, he's a good player.
- Fletcher Cox (3.0) – Enter his 12th season, Cox is no longer the perineal AP/PB player that he was three years ago. Still, he recorded 7 sacks; yet, clearly doesn't have the stamina to play at a high level on every play. I suspect this may be his last season. Also, listing Cox as the "starter" seems more like a curtesy at this point in his career; Milton Williams will continue to get more snaps than Cox. The former is a 3rd Round pick, who has shown more abilities than Odighizuwa.
- Osa Odighizuwa (3.0) – Entering his third season, this 2021 third round picks has shown some flashes, but still struggles to generate persistent pressure, consume blockers and hold the edge. He's improving, but still well behind Sweat and Williams here...
RE
- Micah Parsons (5.0) – In his first two seasons, he's putting up better numbers than LT and the late, great Derrick Thomas. He can stay healthy, he has a legit chance to win an NFL MVP...he's that kind of unique talent.
- Josh Sweat (4.25) – A former 4th round pick, Sweat has developed into a very good DE, who possess really good speed and bend, which resulted in 19 sacks and PB honors over the last two seasons. Despite only weighing 250Lbs, he can also effectively hold the edge. His 87 PFF rating is not an aberration...he's good!
- Montez Sweat (3.75) – Is a fringe PB player, who consistently generates pressures and is better against the run than people realize. His 86 PFF rating and objectionable stats suggest this is the best RDT/RE in division.
- Kayvon Thibodeaux (3.75) – Despite some fans suggesting otherwise, Thibs had a sensational rookie season, leading all rookies in pressures, making the PFWA All-Rookie Team, generating 50 Tacks/4 sacks, 1 TD and was personally responsible for 2x Giant wins. He's on a Pro Bowl player track.
WLB
- Bobby Okereke (3.25) When the Giants signed him, you would have thought Okereke was a Pro Bowl type player. He's not; instead, he's a good player who make sa ton tackles, which are mostly chase-town tackles beyond the LoS. He's also very athletic and can cover; however, he absolutely struggles disengaging from blockers and/or holding the PoA.
- Leighton Vander Esch (3.25) – Started his career on a tear; however, injuries robbed him of his AP trajectory. Today, he's still a better than average LB who had a combined 90 tacks and 71 PFF rating.
- Zach Cunningham (2.75) – former 2d round pick, playing on his 3rd team in 6 years. At 6'3/230, he has prototypical LB size and is HIGHLY productive against the run, accumulating 163 tackles in 2020; however, he struggles in space and is absolute liability in the passing gain. As run defender, he's above average; yet, when factoring his pass coverage and zone awareness grades, he average or slightly below.
- Khaleke Hudson (2.25) – In his 4th season, this 5th round draft pick is finally getting his chance to start; expectations are not particularly high.
MLB
- Cody Barton (3.0) – A former 3rd round pick of the Seahawks, Barton finally got a chance to start; he took advantage of this opportunity compiling 136 total tackles. He was a solid, albeit unspectacular pro last year.
- Nakobe Dean (3.0) – A 3rd Round pick last year, Dean was limited to special teams; also, at only 6'0/220, he lacks prototypical MLB size. He gets a chance to start this season...
- Damone Clark (2.75) – Was Dallas 5th round pick last season; he had a very average rookie campaign last season. He has a chance to develop into an above average center; however, for now, he's a tick below.
- Micah McFadden (2.75) – Ditto Clark; with the exception that McFadden doesn't have the size to play a true ILB role. His upside maybe limited.
SLB
- Haason Reddick (4.5) - A former 1st Round Pick with superior speed and instincts has been an NFL top 10 LB for 3 straight seasons, accumulating 38 sacks during that period. Reddick is a disrupter and team leader. He's clearly the divisions best LB earning a PR and 2d Team AP selection last season.
- Jamin Davis (3.25) – Taken #19 overall in the 2021 draft, Davis has great size (6'3/240), which he combines with 4.46 speed; last year, he led the Commanders with 104 tackles. His rookie year was somewhat stifled as he was forced to play out-of-position (MLB); still, his talent started to show last year when he returned to his natural OLB role. Despite his physical prowess, he still finds himself out-of-positions...he must do better at reading his keys and stop relying solely on his physical gifts. He has PB potential; however, at this point, that's all it is...
- Azeez Ojulari (3.00) – The Giants 2021 2d round pick, Ojulari is superior pass-rusher, when healthy, but an absolute liability in the run and pass defenses; for the former, he often negates his run contain responsibilities to take bad angles that increase his sack probability, which IMO were the impetus of his 58 and 62 PFF ratings. His value is solely as a pass-rusher, which has benefits in a 3-4 scheme; still, he's nowhere near Reddick's stratosphere and overvalued by fans who simply look at his sacks, without considering the other elements to his game.
- Devin Harper (2.25) – Continuing the trend of young SLB, Harber was taken in the 6th round in the 2022 draft. Unfortunately, he ruptured his Achilles tendinitis in October and was placed on IR. Currently, he's a complete unknown.
LCB
- Stephon Gilmore (3.75) – In his prime, he was one of the best CBs in the league, having amassed 5 PBs and 2 AP honors. He's not that far removed from his last PB season (2022) and can still play at a high-level, as indicated by his 80 PFF rating; still, he's 32 years old and his last two teams have only felt comfortable investing in single year contracts. At some point, his play will drop off, which could happen at any time. Still, at 6'1/200lbs, he's a physical CB who excels at jamming WRs and has fantastic hand placement. Despite his age, he played in 16 games last season on a bad Ind team...
- James Bradberry (3.50) – Entering his 7th season, JB is still a very good CB capable of playing man-to-man; however, he does give up a lot of deep passes. He's also very effective against the run...BL: He's still a very good CB, which his 74 PFF rating accurately reflects.
- Kendall Fuller (3.50) – Underrated CB who's had a good, albeit unspectacular 8-year career. Fuller is tough, and durable; in 8 years, he's missed more than 3 games only once. He's also leads the secondary in tackles, acquiring 407 tackles to go along with 14 Ints. Despite playing for 7-years, he's just 27 and still very effective, as indicated by his 77 PFF rating.
- Adoree Jackson (3.50) – Adoree has always been a good CB, who you can count to miss between 6 and 7 games every year. He's also fails to generate many int; in 6 years, he has just 3 Ints. Still, when he plays, he's a good cover man who despite weighing just 185 lbs, isn't afraid to mix it up with WRs and take on much bigger RBs. His 72 PFF rating accurately reflects his value; Bradberry and Fuller get nods over Jackson due to availability; although all three have similar abilities.
RCB
- Travon Diggs (4.50) – Entering his 4th season, Diggs is widely renowned for being one of the NFLs best cover-corners, having amassed into 17 Ints, which he parlayed into 2x PB and 1x First Team AP awards.
Diggs is long, smooth and has exceptional closing speed; this cemented his 5 year/$97M contract, making him the NFLs highest paid CB. Still, he's not perfect...he's at best and average run defender who doesn't always mix-it-up.
- Darius Slay (4.0) – 10-year veteran coming off his 5th Pro Bowl season. Like Gilmore, he's 32 years old and have to anticipating diminishing abilities at some point; still, he has a very productive 2022 and remained a top 10 NFL CB.
- Emmanuel Forbes (3.25) – The 2023 #16 overall pick, Forbes is long and lean CB who runs well; he also has great twitch, but doesn't slide particularly well. At just 165 lbs, durability and run defense could be an issue at the NFL-level. Regardless, this is a well-rounded CB equal capable of playing man or zone. Like Banks, we just don't know....
- Deonte Banks (3.25) – A fantastic man-2-man CB with impressive speed and length; despite his superior athleticism, he plays an aggressive-style, press-corner game. He must improve his awareness to play off man coverage schemes to become a Pro Bowl type CB. The skies the limit for this kid; yet, at this point, we just don't know.
SS
- Kamren Curl (3.50) – a 7th round pick in 2020, Curl has been punching above his draft status for two years now. At 6'2/200, he has good speed and is a + tackler. Switching between S and FS, he's put together 3 +seasons, accounting for 270 tackles in just 37 games. He's also rarely out-of-position and keeps the play in front of him...his 83 PFF rating was well-earned; although, I don't believe he has the physical gifts to be a perineal PB player, he is maturing into a really good player.
- Terrell Edmunds (3.25) – Played his first 5 years in PIT, and now makes the switch to Phili. To date, Edmunds has been a very good pro, who's a good tackler and rarely out-of-position...he's not a game-changer, just a good pro, with good size/speed (6'1/220 w/4.4 speed). His 70 PFF rating reflects his better than average performance.
- Jayon Kearse – (3.25) – Is entering his 8th season; Kearse is an old-school physical safety. At 6'4/215, he's an imposing figure in the back 4; he also plays well close to the LS and is an effective run-stopper/tackler. However, he's never been particularly fast (4.62) and does allow defenders to get behind him; he also doesn't play the ball particularly well in the air. Still, he's a + safety and solid pro player, as his 70 PFF rating would indicate.
- Jason Pinnock (2.75) a 2021 NYJ 5th round pick, he played sparingly during his rookie season; mostly on ST. He was waived after just one season, when the Giants claimed him. Pinnock started 5 games for the Giants last season and did well enough to earn a chance to start this season. He has ok size (6/205) and speed; however, he lacks the twitch to be anything more than a good player. He starts for the Giants until/unless, they can find an upgrade.
FS
- Xavier McKinney (3.25) – Most of McKinney fanfare comes from the 2021 season, where he recorded 5 Ints and 93 tackles; however, he regressed last year, which could be a byproduct of an ill-timed hand 'injury.' Regardless, when he did play, he was often out-of-position and grossly misdiagnosed plays. I believe that was the impetus for his PFF rating drop from a very good 75.4 to a well-below-avg 57. He still has all the physical tools to become a PB/AP status; however, he must do better at diagnosing plays, stop taking terrible angles and finding himself out-of-position. Today, he's got a ways to become a top-tier safety.
- Donovan Wilson (3.25) – Entering his 5th season, this former 6th round selection had an impressive 2022 campaign, where he compiled 5 sacks, 2 FF, 1 Int and 101 tackles. Prior to 2022, Wilson was primarily a backup and ST Player. His 2022 efforts earned him a 3 yr/$21M contract extension.
- Darrick Forrest (3.25) - a 2021 5th round pick, Forrest is another player punching above his draft status; for a FS, he's a blazer, possessing 4.4 speed, which he uses to close on deep-balls. Last year, he recorded a pro-bowl like season (4 Ints, 2 FF, and 88 tackles), despite starting just 11 games. A backup when the season started, his game was so good, he was promoted over Bobby McCain late in the season. However, until I see a repeat season, I cannot elevate him over other FS.
- Reed Blankenship (2.75) – A 2022 UDFA, Blankenship was forced to start 4 games for Phili, where he surrounded just 6 passes and accumulated a 75 PFF score. Blankenship is particularly big (6/203), or fast (4.55); yet, he has good instincts and is a good tackler. He played well enough last year to earn a starting position in 2023.
Eagles #1=1; #2=6; #3=3; #4=1
Cowboys #1=4; #2=2; #3=1; #4=4
Giants #1=3; #2=1; #3=1; #4=6
Commanders #1=4; #2=2; #3=1 #4=4
*The Cowboys have 4 of the NFC East best players at thier respective positions
Average Defensive Player Rankings
#1 PHL 3.47
#2 WFT 3.40
#3 DAL 3.38
#4 NYG 3.36
Overall Rankings
#1 PHL 3.7
#2 DAL 3.5
#3 NYG 3.4
#4 WFT 3.1
BL: The Eagles still have superior talent and should win the division; However, the Giants have significantly closed the talent cap with the Cowboys and may threaten them for second place in the division. The Commanders still have a lot of work to do.
No way Hurtz is a 5 sorry! Don't see it
He has/had a great line and better than avg WRs.
Hurtz is Prescott of a few years ago.
Watch long term as the line declines so will Hurtz.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on September 01, 2023, 07:21:27 PMNo way Hurtz is a 5 sorry! Don't see it
He has/had a great line and better than avg WRs.
Hurtz is Prescott of a few years ago.
Watch long term as the line declines so will Hurtz.
You must know something the Eagles don't as they just awarded him a monster contract with $220M guaranteed...he was a legit MVP candidate. He was also a Pro Bowler in his first full season as a starter with no offensive weapons; he literally accounted for 70% of the offense and was the primary reason the Eagles made the playoffs. The notion that Hurts is a byproduct of his offensive line and wr is simply not shared by the Eagles management or objectionable data...
Extremely comprehensive and well thought out post King. In terms of where you have landed, I am basically in agreement. I still regard the Eagles as the best team in the division, but we are in the process of closing the gap, and I think we're probably about a toss-up (along with Dallas) to finish second.
Well done!
Quote from: kingm56 on September 01, 2023, 07:24:39 PMYou must know something the Eagles don't as they just awarded him a monster contract with $220M guaranteed...he was a legit MVP candidate. He was also a Pro Bowler in his first full season as a starter with no offensive weapons; he literally accounted for 70% of the offense and was the primary reason the Eagles made the playoffs. The notion that Hurts is a byproduct of his offensive line and wr is simply not shared by the Eagles management or objectionable data...
Cowgirls gave Prescott a stupid contract too! What's that prove!
Vikings gave Cousins a ton of money at one point too!
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on September 01, 2023, 07:21:27 PMNo way Hurtz is a 5 sorry! Don't see it
He has/had a great line and better than avg WRs.
Hurtz is Prescott of a few years ago.
Watch long term as the line declines so will Hurtz.
Paul,
I completely agree with you. We have seen from the survey of coaches and NFL front office people that they can be over-swayed by production, and they don't give enough consideration to support a QB receives. Hurts had the best line, the best-receiving targets, and solid coaching (at least last season). Any NFL-caliber QB will thrive in those conditions.
All Hurts has done at every level is win, the guy won in high school, college, and now in the NFL. All the Eagles had to do was see how their team looked when hurts was out last season to know his value. Guy is legit.
A lot of work and effort; however, your rankings on most positions are off or at least subject to debate.
For example, somehow you think Zack is better than Jones. I totally disagree and I am not in the minority. Or our WRs all last or 3rd in the division, or Thibs being last!!
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 01, 2023, 07:53:32 PMPaul,
I completely agree with you. We have seen from the survey of coaches and NFL front office people that they can be over-swayed by production, and they don't give enough consideration to support a QB receives. Hurts had the best line, the best-receiving targets, and solid coaching (at least last season). Any NFL-caliber QB will thrive in those conditions.
So everyone is convinced Jones is great but lacks the OL or WR to be successful, but when Hurts has the OL and WR he's just a product of the system.
Huh?
Anyone selling Hurts short is just a Giants homer. If he was a Giant there would be 10 threads about him in this forum.....
Quote from: Uni on September 01, 2023, 08:57:03 PMSo everyone is convinced Jones is great but lacks the OL or WR to be successful, but when Hurts has the OL and WR he's just a product of the system.
Huh?
To me if you are a 5 you are on a level with the great QBs of the past! You are a Peyton Brady and Montana level QB!
Hurts has yet to prove himself as that.
Idc what Phili paid him, teams overpay a QB all the time!
To be a 5 you have multiple years in a row of top tier top 5 QB in the NFL level of play.
I wouldn't rate Eli a 5! DJ hasn't been a 5 nor would he be this year if he became a top 5 QB! 1-2 years doesn't make an elite QB it is sustained greatness over YEARS!
Quote from: Uni on September 01, 2023, 08:57:03 PMSo everyone is convinced Jones is great but lacks the OL or WR to be successful, but when Hurts has the OL and WR he's just a product of the system.
Huh?
I don't understand the "Huh?" because those two statements are the 2 sides of the same coin. The quality of the O-line and WRs has a significant effect on a QB's production. Jones' lack of those things suppressed his production below his intrinsic quality. While Hurts had those things so his production was more in line with HIS quality. I don't see the contradiction implied by your "Huh?", but maybe I am misunderstanding?
Personally I would not say that Hurts is simply a product of a system. He is a good QB and certainly his stats in 2022 were better than DJ's. But it is not unreasonable to question how much of those better stats is because he has intrinsically more quality than DJ and how much is because of his superior OL & WR support. Hopefully our OL will hold up and our receivers will stay healthy and 2023 will go a long way towards answering that.
Quote from: Uni on September 01, 2023, 08:57:03 PMSo everyone is convinced Jones is great but lacks the OL or WR to be successful, but when Hurts has the OL and WR he's just a product of the system.
Huh?
In both cases, we see a failure to factor in the supporting structure. What we see is what Mike Lombardi refers to as "production scouts".
You put a lot of effort and research into this project and the end result in the rankings is pretty much what it is.
Looks like there's room for some of the Giants players to move up and if you do this next year, I'm hoping to see some nice grades for Hyatt, Hawkins and even Simmons. I think you went low on Slay but I can't argue the results. I'd like to see JMS and Neal move up to the top. Same with Thibs.
I'm optimistic but realistic that Jones will move up and at least pass Prescott. Hurts is clearly the best in the division.
Thanks for the outstanding body of work! Remind me to move this over to the Chalk Board at some point for future reference.
Quote from: GloryDays on September 01, 2023, 08:40:54 PMA lot of work and effort; however, your rankings on most positions are off or at least subject to debate.
For example, somehow you think Zack is better than Jones. I totally disagree and I am not in the minority. Or our WRs all last or 3rd in the division, or Thibs being last!!
In point of fact, you are in in the minority, if you believe DJ is currently better than Dax:
Daks NFL accolades:
2× Pro Bowl (2016, 2018)
Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Year 2016
AP Offensive Rookie of the Year 2016
Walter Payton Man of the Year 2022
DJs NFL accolades:
None to date...
PFF has Dak #10 and DJ #18: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-all-32-starters-2023-nfl-season
NFL News has Dak #10 and DJ#18: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-ranking-all-32-teams-primary-starting-quarterbacks-at-the-end-of-th
Sportsnaut has Dak #11 and DJ#13: https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-qb-rankings/
CBS has Dak #9 and DJ #17: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/top-10-nfl-qbs-of-2023-afc-reigns-supreme-as-jets-aaron-rodgers-joins-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-other-stars/
*this was the top 4 Google results ("NFL current QB rankings"); I searched two pages of rankings, I couldn't find a single one that suggested DJ was better than Dax.
Concerning WRs, I would love to hear your rationale for ranking Hodgins over CeeDee, MCLaurin, or Brown. Equally interesting would be your rationale for placing Smith, Dotson or Cooks below Slayton. I'm a huge Thibs fan; yet, you would have to be a huge homer to suggest he's better than Micah Parsons or John Sweat. If Thibs produced a double-digit sack season and made a PB, we would sing his praises. Well, Sweat accomplished both feats in 2021/22 and Parsons is on a torrent HoF trajectory, which leaves Sweat. I gave Sweat and Thibs the same score; yet, the ranking goes to Sweat as he's been better than average for multiple seasons.
Quote from: Ed Vette on September 02, 2023, 07:10:17 AMYou put a lot of effort and research into this project and the end result in the rankings is pretty much what it is.
Looks like there's room for some of the Giants players to move up and if you do this next year, I'm hoping to see some nice grades for Hyatt, Hawkins and even Simmons. I think you went low on Slay but I can't argue the results. I'd like to see JMS and Neal move up to the top. Same with Thibs.
I'm optimistic but realistic that Jones will move up and at least pass Prescott. Hurts is clearly the best in the division.
Thanks for the outstanding body of work! Remind me to move this over to the Chalk Board at some point for future reference.
Thank you, Ed! Yes, there's a chance DJ could move past Dax this year; I don't want to suggest otherwise.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on September 01, 2023, 07:50:56 PMCowgirls gave Prescott a stupid contract too! What's that prove!
Vikings gave Cousins a ton of money at one point too!
Giving a QB 'lots' of money is not the same as Hurts landmark deal, which made him the highest-paid player in NFL history. Moreover, the Cowboys have a history of overpaying players, the Eagles do not. In fact, the Eagles have a 25 year history of making really sound financial decisions. It should be obvious that Hurts is not merely a product of the system, he is the system. I guess we forgot the two games Phili lost when Hurts was injured? As it turnouts, you can't simply replace him with a good QB and achieve similar results. As someone who enjoys betting on and playing FF, I consume a lot of the NFL, outside our Giants; it was obvious to me 3 years ago that Hurts was a top 5 talent; in fact, I made that proclamation here, which was rightfully criticized, including from posters I have incredible respect for like
@DaveBrown74. Yet, today, by every single tangible metric, Hurts is a Top 5 QB, as indicated by his AP selection. In fact, I tried to find a single credible source that ranked Hurts outside the top 6....I couldn't find a single one.
Also, I would not classify Dak's contract as "stupid." Dak has a 61-36 record and led the Cowboys 1x 13 win and 2x 12 win seasons; the only time the Cowboys finished below .500 was when he was injured. Put another way, if the Giants don't win a championship and/or SB over the next 3 years, will you classify DJ's contract as stupid?
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2023, 06:50:08 AMIn both cases, we see a failure to factor in the supporting structure. What we see is what Mike Lombardi refers to as "production scouts".
I think you're missing my point - there is an inherent hypocrisy amongst many Giants fans that insist Jones is the best QB in the NFCE and explain the lack of production to deficiencies in protection and weapons. But when Prescott or Hurts are lauded by the national media and front offices, their production is explained as simply a product of protection and weapons and they're not as good as Jones.
You cannot see this is simply fallacy? And to refer to Lombardi here to support your opinion is incongruous since he thinks Hurts is a blue chip QB and Jones is a vastly overpaid lower half QB.
Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk
Hurts looked so bad his rookie season that I never imagined he would get to where he is today. DJ was clearly looking like the better QB back then.
Matt,
Nice job with this especially staying objective (which will not get many "like"s). I couldn't argue anyone more than a half point either way.
As Ed said, hopefully next year their will be Giants who command a higher grade.
I think the Giants will overtake Dallas this in terms of record. I think they may be as close as your scores have them.
I will fully admit that when the Eagles took Hurts in the second round that year, I thought they were a bit nuts. It not only seemed like a reach for Hurts, but it seemed odd to take a QB at all given they seemingly had more pressing needs. Clearly they really liked Hurts.
To be clear, I was not high on Hurts as an NFL talent. I knew he was a great athlete and excellent college QB, but I didn't think he had the arm talent, and I didn't think being shorter than 6'2" would help him either. I continued to think that about him in 2020 and 2021, and I felt somewhat vindicated when they made the playoffs in 2021 and he had that horrific performance against the Bucs in a very ugly loss. I also felt a bit vindicated when he coughed up the ball multiple times in a regular season loss to us that year.
In 2022, things changed though. Obviously, the biggest change was that the Eagles brought in AJ Brown, who had an utterly dominant season, and no doubt that heavily influenced Hurts' performance. Also, their schedule was very forgiving. I recall watching a number of games in the earlier part of the season against bad defenses like Detroit and Houston where Hurts was basically playing pitch and catch with open receivers behind his vaunted, brick wall of an offensive line. No doubt he had plenty around him. No doubt about this at all. Had he been on a lesser team like say the Panthers last year, his numbers would have been different. No denying this.
Hurts still looked very good though, even in spite of the addition of supporting talent. I think two things happened, as far as my perception of him:
(1) I underestimated him from the beginning. I know some will say that that is hindsight talking, and it is to an extent, but the bottom line is I don't think any sane individual can argue that the Eagles have anything less than a top tier front office and scouting department. And clearly they thought (and think) very highly of Hurts. I have no problem admitting I was probably wrong about him initially. To say otherwise is kind of saying I have a better eye for talent than the Eagles scouts and front office folks, which I obviously don't.
(2) Hurts has improved as a player during his pro career. That can certainly happen. I think it's fair to say the same thing about what our own QB has managed to do over the past couple years.
I definitely don't rate Hurts as highly as I do Josh Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, or Herbert. I know some do, but I would still take any of those guys over him myself. And it's possible Trevor Lawrence could be added to that list if his trajectory further resembles Josh Allen and he has a huge year three leap the way Allen did. Lawrence definitely looked impressive in a number of games I watched last year. He is on my radar this year as far as QBs who I think could step into the elite ranks.
But as of right now, Hurts is still the best QB in the division in my opinion. With regard to his performance, he was a clear top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL last year. For much of the season he was in the driver's seat for the MVP. Do I think he's top two in the league overall? No, I still favor the others I mentioned above over him. An yes, obviously Hurts is in a very good situation. But to deny him any of the credit for his season last year and hand it all to everyone else, when QB is the most important position on the field by far, seems incorrect to me. I am happy to admit that I most likely underestimated him going into the draft and in his couple years in the league.
Right now Hurts is the best QB in the NFC IMHO and I didnt think he'd be a good pro. Had a hard time thinking he would get much better after he got yanked in a national championship game only to see Bama roll after that move.
His throwing looks like it has improved significantly. I am sure having a top 3 OL and excellent receivers helps. The reason I thought he'd never excel in the NFL is that he had those things at Bama and still didnt look great. Looks like he has worked on it and improved. Giants will need to stop the Eagles run game if they really want to test his throwing.
Look at the degree of difficulty in both QB's highlight tapes.
Jones (often under duress)
Hurts (is usually well-protected and takes advantage of great receiving targets)
Quote from: kingm56 on September 01, 2023, 07:12:30 PMFor the last two years, I have tried to evaluate individual talent of each NFC East roster to objectively predict thier final NFC East rankings. Below is my latest effort. Each player is given a score (1 through 5) and ranked from 1-to-4 based on a relative comparison with thier NFC East Counterpart.
King: Probably post of the year. Thanks for doing all that work. IMO, this year's NFC Super Bowl team - Cowboys.
The Eagles are highly unlikely to be as "lucky" (absence of injuries) as they were last year.
Cowboys' defense will carry them a long way (but I still think Giants will win in Week One).
In fact, Cowboys had a few KEY bad breaks in the last 5 to 10 years causing them to stumble needlessly.
I'm sure everyone can pick on you for something in a post that long, and they probably will. LOL Thanks again.
Bob
Quote from: kingm56 on September 02, 2023, 07:41:29 AMIn point of fact, you are in in the minority, if you believe DJ is currently better than Dax:
Daks NFL accolades:
2× Pro Bowl (2016, 2018)
Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Year 2016
AP Offensive Rookie of the Year 2016
Walter Payton Man of the Year 2022
DJs NFL accolades:
None to date...
PFF has Dak #10 and DJ #18: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-all-32-starters-2023-nfl-season
NFL News has Dak #10 and DJ#18: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-ranking-all-32-teams-primary-starting-quarterbacks-at-the-end-of-th
Sportsnaut has Dak #11 and DJ#13: https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-qb-rankings/
CBS has Dak #9 and DJ #17: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/top-10-nfl-qbs-of-2023-afc-reigns-supreme-as-jets-aaron-rodgers-joins-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-other-stars/
*this was the top 4 Google results ("NFL current QB rankings"); I searched two pages of rankings, I couldn't find a single one that suggested DJ was better than Dax.
Concerning WRs, I would love to hear your rationale for ranking Hodgins over CeeDee, MCLaurin, or Brown. Equally interesting would be your rationale for placing Smith, Dotson or Cooks below Slayton. I'm a huge Thibs fan; yet, you would have to be a huge homer to suggest he's better than Micah Parsons or John Sweat. If Thibs produced a double-digit sack season and made a PB, we would sing his praises. Well, Sweat accomplished both feats in 2021/22 and Parsons is on a torrent HoF trajectory, which leaves Sweat. I gave Sweat and Thibs the same score; yet, the ranking goes to Sweat as he's been better than average for multiple seasons.
Of course if we go with measurables from 2022
QB rating
Jones- 92.5
Prescott- 91.1
QBR
Joens- 62.9
Prescott- 59.9
PFF
Jones- 76.0
Prescott- 72.0
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2023, 10:13:14 AMOf course if we go with measurables from 2022
Rich (and Ed): The discussion about Dak is somewhat irrelevant, IMO.
IMO it's possible Cowboys have a team that could get to the big game with a "Trent Dilfer" type QB.
I view Dak as less important to Cowboys than Hurts is to Eagles. Controversial? Maybe, but I'm 100% sure.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2023, 10:13:14 AMOf course if we go with measurables from 2022
QB rating
Jones- 92.5
Prescott- 91.1
QBR
Joens- 62.9
Prescott- 59.9
PFF
Jones- 76.0
Prescott- 72.0
Rich,
What about passing yards, TDs, etc? Isn't also fair to account for Dak's injury, which caused him to miss 5 games in 2022? What about the other 4-seasons? This post perfectly highlights Uni's point. A few hours ago you highlighted the fallacy of using measurable data to judge QB performance, at least as it relates to evaluating Hurts. However, a few hours later you use performance data to illustrate your point.
"I completely agree with you. We have seen from the survey of coaches and NFL front office people that
they can be over-swayed by production, and they don't give enough consideration to support a QB receives. Hurts had the best line, the best-receiving targets, and solid coaching (at least last season).
Any NFL-caliber QB will thrive in those conditions."I watched a good NFL QB lose 2 games with the benefit of the best line, the best-receiving targets, and solid coaching.
If you want to put DJ over Dak, that's perfectly fine as the gap between them isn't that wide; however, to suggest the majority of experts are doing the same is intellectually dishonest. Also, if we could stop focusing on one position, that would be great! What about the reset of the analysis? Any glaring mistakes?
Quote from: Bob In PA on September 02, 2023, 10:07:41 AMKing: Probably post of the year. Thanks for doing all that work. IMO, this year's NFC Super Bowl team - Cowboys.
The Eagles are highly unlikely to be as "lucky" (absence of injuries) as they were last year.
Cowboys' defense will carry them a long way (but I still think Giants will win in Week One).
In fact, Cowboys had a few KEY bad breaks in the last 5 to 10 years causing them to stumble needlessly.
I'm sure everyone can pick on you for something in a post that long, and they probably will. LOL Thanks again.
Bob
Bob, I love the way you conduct yourself; thank you for being you!
That's a remarkable effort you have made, kingm56 which should be acknowledged before others here start to take exception based on their opinions presented as fact.
My personal view is that there is always too much uncertainty involving not just the NFC East but all teams, as they begin a new season, to support even our best guesses.
However, I can and will say that I am encouraged enough by the improvement in the Giants Management, Coaching, and overall Roster talent to support a feeling of some satisfaction and indeed optimism.
So, let's start the season and take it one game at a time until facts have a chance to catchup with our guesses and pre-analyses, one way or the other.
Cheers!
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2023, 10:13:14 AMOf course if we go with measurables from 2022
QB rating
Jones- 92.5
Prescott- 91.1
QBR
Joens- 62.9
Prescott- 59.9
PFF
Jones- 76.0
Prescott- 72.0
Prescott only played 12 games, he's also thrown for 4500 multiple times and 30 tds multiple times. He may be on the decline possibly but there's no question he's been the better Qb. Could Jones take him over this year, absolutely but Prescott has been the superior QB besides this injury riddled past season.
I want to give kudos to the "King" for the time and effort in putting the data and analysis together to start this thread. QB discussion aside, there are some good points for discussion on how the Giants have, at an individual level, closed the gap against their divisional rivals' individuals.
But rarely do individuals win games, much less titles. So, it still comes down to how the Giants' offense, defense and special teams units, respectively, have closed the gap against their divisional peers in preparation for the season ahead.
While there is no question the Giants have made the most strides in improving their defense, collectively, they have significantly improved their offensive skill positions, and one of the line positions, but questions remain whether JMS Jr., and another year together for the incumbents, will be enough to demonstrate collective growth, and overall improvement, of the offensive line which will be the catalyst for improving the overall offensive performance.
The special teams has an ace in the hole with Graham Gano but continued concerns remain by the decision to give the Scottish Hammer another year to resolve the issues in his skillset. One more issue, such as a dropped ball during a punt attempt, a field goal attempt, or even an extra point attempt, may be the one issue that could break the Giants' chance to make the post-season in what will be a tough season where every mistake will be far more costly than last season. In other words, Gillan has far greater pressure on him, this season, to become an excellent cold weather punter/holder or this will be the end of the line for his career (think of Matt Dodge). The NFC Rivals have better special teams in all which is why I remained puzzled as to why the Giants stayed with Gillan. Head-scratching continues this year and a bald spot has begun to show on the top of my head (NOTE TO SELF: make appointment with doctor for hair loss treatment).
Peace!
Peace!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on September 02, 2023, 11:24:51 AMPrescott only played 12 games, he's also thrown for 4500 multiple times and 30 tds multiple times. He may be on the decline possibly but there's no question he's been the better Qb. Could Jones take him over this year, absolutely but Prescott has been the superior QB besides this injury riddled past season.
Jess,
I don't disagree with your assertion that Prescott was more productive years ago, but is it that relevant in evaluating these QBs this season?
Quote from: kingm56 on September 02, 2023, 10:33:21 AMRich,
What about passing yards, TDs, etc? Isn't also fair to account for Dak's injury, which caused him to miss 5 games in 2022? What about the other 4-seasons? This post perfectly highlights Uni's point. A few hours ago you highlighted the fallacy of using measurable data to judge QB performance, at least as it relates to evaluating Hurts. However, a few hours later you use performance data to illustrate your point.
"I completely agree with you. We have seen from the survey of coaches and NFL front office people that they can be over-swayed by production, and they don't give enough consideration to support a QB receives. Hurts had the best line, the best-receiving targets, and solid coaching (at least last season). Any NFL-caliber QB will thrive in those conditions."
I watched a good NFL QB lose 2 games with the benefit of the best line, the best-receiving targets, and solid coaching.
If you want to put DJ over Dak, that's perfectly fine as the gap between them isn't that wide; however, to suggest the majority of experts are doing the same is intellectually dishonest. Also, if we could stop focusing on one position, that would be great! What about the reset of the analysis? Any glaring mistakes?
I am certainly willing to expand on my points for clarity. The flaw in the points made by you and Uni was that you assumed I hadn't considered supporting factors, which is something I most certainly did.
When you compare Hurts somewhat better productivity last season, you need to consider
HURTS
Coaching/Scheme- elite
Protection- elite
Receiving- elite
JONES
Coaching/Scheme- elite
Protection- below-average/bad
Receiving weapons- average/below-average
PRESCOTT
Coaching/Scheme- average
Protection Above-average/average
Receiving Above average/average
All my points are more than consistent once you take into account those factors
Just win baby.
That's the only stat needed to prove if one is a great QB or not (in my opinion).
Otherwise, you have Ken Andersen, Boomer, Warren Moon, Steve Bartkowski or Dan Fouts. Very VERY good statistical QBs who couldn't consistently the biggest of games. I will always go with the Al Davis barometer.
Quote from: Trench on September 02, 2023, 03:27:19 PMJust win baby.
That's the only stat needed to prove if one is a great QB or not (in my opinion).
Otherwise, you have Ken Andersen, Boomer, Warren Moon, Steve Bartkowski or Dan Fouts. Very VERY good statistical QBs who couldn't consistently the biggest of games. I will always go with the Al Davis barometer.
I agree, although to be fair Eli was .500 for his career and never won a single playoff game other than during the two SB runs. For a highly celebrated QB, he lost plenty of games.
And he's 100% definitely going to the Hall of Fame.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 02, 2023, 07:41:29 AMIn point of fact, you are in in the minority, if you believe DJ is currently better than Dax:
Daks NFL accolades:
2× Pro Bowl (2016, 2018)
Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Year 2016
AP Offensive Rookie of the Year 2016
Walter Payton Man of the Year 2022
DJs NFL accolades:
None to date...
PFF has Dak #10 and DJ #18: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-all-32-starters-2023-nfl-season
NFL News has Dak #10 and DJ#18: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-ranking-all-32-teams-primary-starting-quarterbacks-at-the-end-of-th
Sportsnaut has Dak #11 and DJ#13: https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-qb-rankings/
CBS has Dak #9 and DJ #17: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/top-10-nfl-qbs-of-2023-afc-reigns-supreme-as-jets-aaron-rodgers-joins-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-other-stars/
*this was the top 4 Google results ("NFL current QB rankings"); I searched two pages of rankings, I couldn't find a single one that suggested DJ was better than Dax.
Concerning WRs, I would love to hear your rationale for ranking Hodgins over CeeDee, MCLaurin, or Brown. Equally interesting would be your rationale for placing Smith, Dotson or Cooks below Slayton. I'm a huge Thibs fan; yet, you would have to be a huge homer to suggest he's better than Micah Parsons or John Sweat. If Thibs produced a double-digit sack season and made a PB, we would sing his praises. Well, Sweat accomplished both feats in 2021/22 and Parsons is on a torrent HoF trajectory, which leaves Sweat. I gave Sweat and Thibs the same score; yet, the ranking goes to Sweat as he's been better than average for multiple seasons.
You seem to make all your evaluations based on existing stats. While that could be considered safe, it's a cold compilation of lots of consensus by others who do not have much more to go on, except for recent accomplishments. We have a young team with many new parts and clear potential based on how they have looked in the limited time they have had on the field.
This project can't be properly completed by including factors such as luck and potential. It does however include what would be intangibles such as QB elusiveness, schemed time to throw based on routes and Quarterback style such as pocket QB vs highly mobile and passing on the run ability. It includes designed Runs by QB and Runs because of coverage or failure to get a timely pass off. Those items also have an effect in the evaluation of Receivers and the Offensive Line. Let's say for example that Hurts didn't run for as much yardage as he did, and instead completed more passes at a rate of 70%, or in doing so was sacked more and absorbed more pressure those would affect stats.
@kingm56 what would your scores have been for the Giants at the same time last year and how would the scores compared?
How would they look if you include the rotational and backup players for the Giants.
Only if you have the time.
That would coincide with my thread analysis of the two season's rosters. Except my comparison was last year's end of season in some cases. Like Jones vs Jones.
Off the top of my head, LY's QB would have been fair to poor. The perception of the Receivers was pretty high going into last season with Golladay, Toney, Robinson and Shepard. TE would have been much lower as would ILB and CB.
Quote from: GloryDays on September 02, 2023, 11:07:09 PMYou seem to make all your evaluations based on existing stats. While that could be considered safe, it's a cold compilation of lots of consensus by others who do not have much more to go on, except for recent accomplishments. We have a young team with many new parts and clear potential based on how they have looked in the limited time they have had on the field.
Stats were not the only tool, nor the primary vehicle evaluating players; if they were, Fletcher Cox would be ranked ahead of Dexter Lawrence and CeeDee Lamb ahead Terry M. Moreover, you seem to evaluate our team in an utter vacuum; to that point, you fail to realize that all three of our division foes have "many new parts and clear potential based on how they have looked in the limited time." This is especially true for the Eagles, who have crushed thier last three drafts and are in the midst of defensive and offensive line transitions. The Giants are not the only team that drafted new players over the last two years...
Quote from: Ed Vette on September 03, 2023, 07:33:50 AM@kingm56 what would your scores have been for the Giants at the same time last year and how would the scores compared?
How would they look if you include the rotational and backup players for the Giants.
Only if you have the time.
That would coincide with my thread analysis of the two season's rosters. Except my comparison was last year's end of season in some cases. Like Jones vs Jones.
Off the top of my head, LY's QB would have been fair to poor. The perception of the Receivers was pretty high going into last season with Golladay, Toney, Robinson and Shepard. TE would have been much lower as would ILB and CB.
I went back to find my efforts last year; unfortunately, it appears Rich was forced to delete our history to ensure the site remains responsive. Last year, I had the Eagles #1, Cowboys #2, Giants #3 and Commanders #4, which is where each team landed. Last year, the gap between the Cowboys and Giants was more than .5 point, which is statistically significant. This year, I have the Cowboys and Giants withing .1, which is within the statistical margin; in short, they're in a virtual tie. Although, Phili clearly has the most talent, the Giants could overtake the Cowboys as the NFC East #2.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 04, 2023, 07:38:08 AMI went back to find my efforts last year; unfortunately, it appears Rich was forced to delete our history to ensure the site remains responsive. Last year, I had the Eagles #1, Cowboys #2, Giants #3 and Commanders #4, which is where each team landed. Last year, the gap between the Cowboys and Giants was more than .5 point, which is statistically significant. This year, I have the Cowboys and Giants withing .1, which is within the statistical margin; in short, they're in a virtual tie. Although, Phili clearly has the most talent, the Giants could overtake the Cowboys as the NFC East #2.
If we move it to the Chalk Board, that won't happen again.
Quote from: Ed Vette on September 04, 2023, 07:40:19 AMIf we move it to the Chalk Board, that won't happen again.
That would be great; although, I completely understand why
@MightyGiants has to keep the site efficient.
Matt
Didn't get to comment on your just terrific thread. Should be the thread of the year for all the work you put into it.
Again, thanks for all your work.