Right now, it sounds like both Barkley and McKinney are long shots to be re-signed to the Giants.
Last October, the Giants were realistically out of the playoffs. Before the Oct 31 deadline, NYG traded away Leonard Williams for a 2nd round pick. Yet, if they didn't plan on re-signing McKinney and Barkley, why didn't they trade them away as well???
Had they done that, I don't think we would have had the 3 game-winning streak and Devito mania. I think the Giants would have ended the season with a draft pick in the top 3. Plus (and I will be conservative), they would have had two more 3rd round picks.
So, instead of the Giant's current situation being a ton of needs and little need to fulfill all those needs, they would have had enough resources to get a QB, get a quality WR, fix the O-line, and prevent any significant holes.
So why the half measures? Was Mara adamant he didn't want to be embarrassed again by a very poor finish? Did Schoen believe the team still could make the playoffs (and DJ's 2nd neck injury was no big deal)?
Sometimes, you need to take a small step back to take a big step forward. It's frustrating that, for whatever reason, the Giants didn't see that reality.
They certainly should have sold off everybody at the deadline. I'm not really sure why they didn't to be honest. I might GUESS if they had held out hope of re-signing them after the season you don't want piss them off on the way out...maybe? Maybe the offers they got were so low it wasn't worth tanking the season? Although I'd say there's not much I wouldn't have taken at that point in the season.
Or maybe they foolishly thought they could climb back into the playoff picture somehow cause the NFC was so terrible? I would love to get a private moment with Schoen to ask him about that. It has been curious to me from the minute the deadline passed until now.
I don't know, but I trust Schoen (to the extent he actually has "complete control" over personnel moves).
If he didn't act, he didn't act for a reason.
Spitballing... maybe the Wink thing had something to do with McKinney... IMO, that one is more "inexplicable" to me than the Saquon thing.
More spitballing... could it be that they intended all along to use the "tag" on one of those two guys but wanted to see how things played out the rest of the season to decide which one? (no one has mentioned that yet - in the sports media).
Just some random thoughts on your issue.
Bob
Quote from: Gmo11 on February 22, 2024, 01:09:50 PMThey certainly should have sold off everybody at the deadline. I'm not really sure why they didn't to be honest. I might GUESS if they had held out hope of re-signing them after the season you don't want piss them off on the way out...maybe? Maybe the offers they got were so low it wasn't worth tanking the season? Although I'd say there's not much I wouldn't have taken at that point in the season.
Or maybe they foolishly thought they could climb back into the playoff picture somehow cause the NFC was so terrible? I would love to get a private moment with Schoen to ask him about that. It has been curious to me from the minute the deadline passed until now.
It's a shame our reporters don't like doing quality work. Instead of sharing the painful details of the Daboll vs Wink feud, finding out the thinking in the building as to why they didn't position themselves for a proper offseason rebuild would have been far better.
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 22, 2024, 01:10:46 PMI don't know, but I trust Schoen (to the extent he actually has "complete control" over personnel moves).
If he didn't act, he didn't act for a reason.
Spitballing... maybe the Wink thing had something to do with McKinney... IMO, that one is more "inexplicable" to me than the Saquon thing.
More spitballing... could it be that they intended all along to use the "tag" on one of those two guys but wanted to see how things played out the rest of the season to decide which one? (no one has mentioned that yet - in the sports media).
Just some random thoughts on your issue.
Bob
The Giants knew (thanks to borrowing so much $$$ this season, plus 3 big contracts) that the upcoming cap situation wouldn't be great, making the use of the tag (which is very cap unfriendly) challenging.
Not trading players that will be free (UFA) at the end of the season when the team has a losing record at the deadline makes about as much sense as trading draft picks away at the deadline for a DT/DE that's going to be a UFA at the end of that season. The more changes they make, the more things remain the same.
There may or may not be a very valid reason those trades didn't take place. We, of course, aren't privy to such information. I suppose it's possible Schoen tried to move McKinney but the offer(s) didn't meet his expectations. Or maybe he wants X as a core member of the defense going forward, and plans to use any means possible to extend him. Who knows....
Once the chips fall we'll have a better idea.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 01:04:10 PMRight now, it sounds like both Barkley and McKinney are long shots to be re-signed to the Giants.
Last October, the Giants were realistically out of the playoffs. Before the Oct 31 deadline, NYG traded away Leonard Williams for a 2nd round pick. Yet, if they didn't plan on re-signing McKinney and Barkley, why didn't they trade them away as well???
Had they done that, I don't think we would have had the 3 game-winning streak and Devito mania. I think the Giants would have ended the season with a draft pick in the top 3. Plus (and I will be conservative), they would have had two more 3rd round picks.
So, instead of the Giant's current situation being a ton of needs and little need to fulfill all those needs, they would have had enough resources to get a QB, get a quality WR, fix the O-line, and prevent any significant holes.
So why the half measures? Was Mara adamant he didn't want to be embarrassed again by a very poor finish? Did Schoen believe the team still could make the playoffs (and DJ's 2nd neck injury was no big deal)?
Sometimes, you need to take a small step back to take a big step forward. It's frustrating that, for whatever reason, the Giants didn't see that reality.
Brilliant email Rich.
We knew DeVito would not make us a playoff team. More importantly, we knew that as much as we may like Saquon Barkley, he has few good years remaining and for a team in a huge rebuild would probably be more valuable to a contending team. We might have gotten a 3rd rounder for him. That would have been very valuable.
The Giants always try to play it safe. They don't like bold move (part of the Mara tradition). They are a conservative organization. As a result, with a few exceptions when they broke that mold (George Young, a dynamic though troubled playmaker (LT), Trade for Eli) we Giant fans suffer with continuous mediocrity.
Quote from: katkavage on February 22, 2024, 02:28:57 PMThe Giants always try to play it safe. They don't like bold move (part of the Mara tradition). They are a conservative organization. As a result, with a few exceptions when they broke that mold (George Young, a dynamic though troubled playmaker (LT), Trade for Eli) we Giant fans suffer with continuous mediocrity.
kat: I think we see the organization very similarly (for better or worse). Bob
Quote from: katkavage on February 22, 2024, 02:28:57 PMThe Giants always try to play it safe. They don't like bold move (part of the Mara tradition). They are a conservative organization. As a result, with a few exceptions when they broke that mold (George Young, a dynamic though troubled playmaker (LT), Trade for Eli) we Giant fans suffer with continuous mediocrity.
Conservative and far too aware of optics
Quote from: Giant Jim on February 22, 2024, 01:32:34 PMNot trading players that will be free (UFA) at the end of the season when the team has a losing record at the deadline makes about as much sense as trading draft picks away at the deadline for a DT/DE that's going to be a UFA at the end of that season. The more changes they make, the more things remain the same.
The irony is, a significant portion of fans on this site thought the LW trade was a good move, as well as retaining Barkley until the Giants were officially eliminated. In short, there seems to be a lot of hindsight lately. Reflection is great; however, it seems unfair for the same fan who defended retaining Barkley/trading for LW to now criticized the franchise and those transactions...
I agree with Rich; the Giants made a huge mistake by not trading away thier limited assets in October. This isn't a new revelation though as it was painfully obvious back in October, or even before the season began. Concerning the latter, it was clear the Giants core players were VASTLY overrated and this team would struggle to win 50% of the thier games...
Quote from: kingm56 on February 22, 2024, 03:08:41 PMThe irony is, a significant portion of fans on this site thought the LW trade was a good move, as well as retaining Barkley until the Giants were officially eliminated. In short, there seems to be a lot of hindsight lately. Reflection is great; however, it seems unfair for the same fan who defended retaining Barkley/trading for LW to now criticized the franchise and those transactions...
Let me get this straight
4 years ago, the Giants traded away a third and a fifth-round draft choice to acquire LW
4 years later, the Giants traded away LW for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round (2025) pick
So please explain to me exactly how terrible the original LW trade was. They received the services of a good DT for 4 years, and they netted the value of 2nd rd pick against a third rd pick for the privilege.
:-??
We don't know how committed they are to Barkley or McKinney as to what degree, but they left themselves open to negotiate with them because they were players they wanted to retain at the right price.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 22, 2024, 03:08:41 PMI agree with Rich; the Giants made a huge mistake by not trading away thier limited assets in October. This isn't a new revelation though as it was painfully obvious back in October, or even before the season began. Concerning the latter, it was clear the Giants core players were VASTLY overrated and this team would struggle to win 50% of the thier games...
I fear that Schoen may have engaged in the sunk cost fallacy. Remember, Schoen borrowed future cap money and traded away draft capital (to acquire Simmons and Bogey Basham). When Jones suffered that second neck injury, any thoughts of moving forward with DJ should have immediately ended and the team should have focused on assuring a path to acquiring his replacement.
I wouldn't disagree that the Giants overestimated their talent level, but I wonder how much of the painfully slow start was due to coaching errors (like Daboll's country club training camp)
Quote from: katkavage on February 22, 2024, 02:28:57 PMThe Giants always try to play it safe. They don't like bold move (part of the Mara tradition). They are a conservative organization. As a result, with a few exceptions when they broke that mold (George Young, a dynamic though troubled playmaker (LT), Trade for Eli) we Giant fans suffer with continuous mediocrity.
Quite so. I don't think we need 23 and Me or Ancestry to confirm what has been in the Mara gene pool for the not better part of the past 99 years.
Cheers!
Since we have absolutely no knowledge of what is in the mind of Schoen all we do is sit here and speculate and give our own summations of the whys the hows and the what-ifs.
Seems everyone considers Barkely gone, but maybe the higher-ups just don't feel this way. Maybe Mara, in his high tower, sees a good guy like Barkley as the face of the Giants, the only real guy people talk about in a very positive way and he didn't want him gone, traded whatever. As was said, maybe McKinney was supposed to be the face of the defense, especially in Wink's defense, so why would he be traded away? As for LW, again we have no idea what goes on in the locker room, plus, I think, to a man here on this board and everywhere else, felt we got a tremendous deal for LW, so why not jump at it?
Personally, I am still happy Barkely and McKinney are still Giants, and regardless of what others think I hope they both remain Giants.
Quote from: Giant Jim on February 22, 2024, 01:32:34 PMNot trading players that will be free (UFA) at the end of the season when the team has a losing record at the deadline makes about as much sense as trading draft picks away at the deadline for a DT/DE that's going to be a UFA at the end of that season. The more changes they make, the more things remain the same.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 22, 2024, 03:08:41 PMThe irony is, a significant portion of fans on this site thought the LW trade was a good move, as well as retaining Barkley until the Giants were officially eliminated. In short, there seems to be a lot of hindsight lately. Reflection is great; however, it seems unfair for the same fan who defended retaining Barkley/trading for LW to now criticized the franchise and those transactions...
My post referring to the first Leonard Williams trade is not in hindsight. I never agreed with it. I was in shock when they made the trade to obtain him. They were in position to be sellers at that time, certainly not buyers for a rental player. The contracts he signed with the Giants were for the team to save face. I don't appreciate your implication that I changed my feelings about the situation after the fact. I never posted I was in favor of the first Williams trade or keeping Barkley & McKinney at the last deadline knowing they would be UFA's after the 2nd half of the season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:15:56 PMLet me get this straight
4 years ago, the Giants traded away a third and a fifth-round draft choice to acquire LW
4 years later, the Giants traded away LW for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round (2025) pick
So please explain to me exactly how terrible the original LW trade was. They received the services of a good DT for 4 years, and they netted the value of 2nd rd pick against a third rd pick for the privilege.
:-??
It was terrible because they could've lost him for nothing. They got him to finish a losing season, then with no bargaining power, had to pay him extremely high salaries to keep him. He was far from the last piece of the puzzle to get them deep into the playoffs. He probably would've been free for them to go after when that season ended. They got a return for him last year, but overall, it was a tremendous gamble for a team that needed so many upgrades back then.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:15:56 PMLet me get this straight
4 years ago, the Giants traded away a third and a fifth-round draft choice to acquire LW
4 years later, the Giants traded away LW for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round (2025) pick
So please explain to me exactly how terrible the original LW trade was. They received the services of a good DT for 4 years, and they netted the value of 2nd rd pick against a third rd pick for the privilege.
:-??
You could make the case that his cap hit was far greater than his impact on the field, and that those dollars wisely invested elsewhere would have improved the team.
Quote from: Giant Jim on February 22, 2024, 04:07:44 PMIt was terrible because they could've lost him for nothing. They got him to finish a losing season, then with no bargaining power, had to pay him extremely high salaries to keep him. He was far from the last piece of the puzzle to get them deep into the playoffs. He probably would've been free for them to go after when that season ended. They got a return for him last year, but overall, it was a tremendous gamble for a team that needed so many upgrades back then.
My sincere apologies, Jim; I clearly remember your thoughts on the matter and wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that not trading away players with value was equally absurd. Again, my apologies for being so imprecise.
Count me in as one who remains convinced that the original Williams was a horrible move. I don't get how any other position on this makes any sense. But, Schoen's trade to get more than Williams was worth was, I think, his best personnel move since he got the job. I get that money was a factor but getting a 2nd was a heist.
Not a loaded question. Has any NY team in any sport, ever tanked? I can't think of one and I go back years. The NY ticket prices are so high that Incan see owners not letting this happen. But, I'm asking if there are examples of tanking which is what the Giants would have done by trading Barkley and McKinney when they traded Williams.
Tanking means purposely losing. Trading players, when there's a good chance they'd lose them after the season anyway, to get some value in a lost season is not tanking. It also gives late round draft picks and undrafted free agents the chance to gain experience and show if they're worth bringing back the next season. You never know who will come off the bench and win a game. McKinney played every down last year, but look what Dane Belton did vs Philly that last game.
Didn't the Rangers sell off a few years ago when they sent out the letter? They didn't tank. The Yankees dumped players during losing seasons. While you could say they might've given up on the season, they weren't trying to lose.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 22, 2024, 05:15:42 PMMy sincere apologies, Jim; I clearly remember your thoughts on the matter and wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that not trading away players with value was equally absurd. Again, my apologies for being so imprecise.
Thank You. Before salary caps and free agency, it was hard to accept these trades which in some cases were favorite players. Today's game is so different. Teams have less than 4 seasons to determine if they should try to extend a player to somewhat control his salary or chance them getting an astronomical contract via free agency. I don't want to lose McKinney or Barkley, but now that other teams can bid and drive up their price, the Giants probably won't want or be able to match.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:44:27 PMI wouldn't disagree that the Giants overestimated their talent level, but I wonder how much of the painfully slow start was due to coaching errors (like Daboll's country club training camp)
News to me. Who reported this?
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 22, 2024, 07:26:40 PMNews to me. Who reported this?
The country club training camp? I have to confess, as a long-time attendee, I had never seen one that was as easy. Remember when they went to Detroit, and they were taken aback by how hard the Lions players were practicing?
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 07:36:54 PMThe country club training camp? I have to confess, as a long-time attendee, I had never seen one that was as easy. Remember when they went to Detroit, and they were taken aback by how hard the Lions players were practicing?
So it's your opinion. Fair enough
Ten (10) Captains. One (1) Pro Bowler. What's wrong with this picture? What an organization.
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 22, 2024, 08:13:08 PMSo it's your opinion. Fair enough
Beat reporters were reporting it, as well. I am just saying that I witnessed the same thing
My best guess on not trading Saquon at that time:
Two words - John Mara
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on February 24, 2024, 10:07:58 AMMy best guess on not trading Saquon at that time:
Two words - John Mara
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Why is everyone assuming anyone was even interested in trading valuable draft assets for an oft-injured, declining, soon-to-be FA who plays one of the most replaceable positions?
Seems like a faulty assumption, to me.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 24, 2024, 10:42:41 AMWhy is everyone assuming anyone was even interested in trading valuable draft assets for an oft-injured, declining, soon-to-be FA who plays one of the most replaceable positions?
Seems like a faulty assumption, to me.
It may be...but I'm of the belief that Mara was also instrumental in DJ's extension....so...by extension...I turn to him when discussing Saquon.
I have no problem being wrong, it's only an opinion.
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Quote from: MightyGiants on February 22, 2024, 03:15:56 PMLet me get this straight
4 years ago, the Giants traded away a third and a fifth-round draft choice to acquire LW
4 years later, the Giants traded away LW for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round (2025) pick
So please explain to me exactly how terrible the original LW trade was. They received the services of a good DT for 4 years, and they netted the value of 2nd rd pick against a third rd pick for the privilege.
:-??
The Seahawks overpaying for LW doesn't magically justify the trade (at the time). Did it end up working out? Thankfully, yes. However, the albatross that was his contract didn't help the team out enough to warrant the production (or lack thereof).
The team was in a tough spot after that playoff run last year.
Blow it up after one year or hope that the Giants might catch lightning in a bottle down the stretch? For a while , it did look like the Giants might make another playoff push, albeit this time with a combo of DeVito or Tyrod Taylor.
I know people (around here) would've lis Their mind if they dismantled the team at the trade deadline.
Its a shame
The state of the Giants
Several barriers to success seem un-movable
John Mara
His relatives in the scouting department
Saquon Barkley
Daniel Jones
Brian Daboll
All sit in key positions and all are average to incompetent
I dont know how you fix this
Only Barkley and Daboll seem immediately ditchable and likely will remain in place for political reasons
The Giants need a virtual miracle in free agency and the draft of the century to avoid more endless misery this coming season
The new D Co-ordinator is a wild card. He has big shoes to fill. Maybe he will suprise us
Another possibility is Jones regains his rookie form Again unlikely
My best hope is they stay competitive and are at least entertaining as for the most part they were last season...staying in many games until the end and under Tommy winning a few
Miracles do happen....we will see how this all plays out
At least they are not boring
Hiring Shoen we had a plan for rebuild.
Then comes a "fools gold" season of 2022 and we all but throw the plan out the window.
The time to trade Barkley and LW was midseason of 2022.
That would have taken guts in sticking with the plan.
still trying to figure out why the switch to Taylor the last 3 weeks. THAT took no brains.
So we are left with a franchise with a fractured plan, a volatile HC of dubious decision making ability ("But the players really like him"), an OC who wants gone and a few pieces of promising, yet very unfulfilled promise.
And thus another "new" rebuild plan is put in motion.
Quote from: Giant Obsession on February 24, 2024, 03:10:47 PMstill trying to figure out why the switch to Taylor the last 3 weeks.
GO: I think the rule some coaches have ("You can't lose your job to injury") came into play with Tyrod.
It eventually outweighed another rule ("Don't rush to bring an aging injured player back").
Also, the Giants were finally winning a few games and the home-town hero was selling a lot of hot dogs, so I think the timing on switching QB's was about right.
Bob
Bob