Time to Clean House and start over?

[Giant Jim]

If the team continues to play this bad over the next several weeks, it might be time to clean house and start over. I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy? I think after the season, Daniel Jones's contract is moveable and if the Giants have the chance to draft a can't miss QB, it might not be a bad idea to trade him. Jones is taking a beating and would benefit with a half decent OL with another team. I wonder if he hopes to be traded so he can have a chance to show what he can do? This would buy the Giants a couple more seasons to build the line with adequate back ups and develop a QB. I don't see the offensive line coming together for another couple of years, meaning Jones will be in his 7th season. How long can he keep going with the beating he takes almost every game?

I'm not trashing Jones or Barkley, but wonder if they'd still be around when the rest of the team is competitive.

[DaveBrown74]

Jim,

I am on the same page. I personally believe the season is over now, but if we fall to 1-5 it's definitely over. At that point in time, I would be fully in favor of putting various veterans (including Barkley) on the trade block and trying to build draft capital. This would help with filling holes and also as a means of trading up in the draft.

Under this strategic scenario I would be in favor of drafting a QB in the first round. Trading DJ in this offseason might be difficult given his massive 2024 cap hit, especially if his 2023 season continues to look like it has looked so far. More likely he'd still be a Giant in 2024 and, as far as I am concerned, would be the starter early in the season or potentially even for all of the season while the rookie spends up to a year practicing and learning. If DJ were to happen to play really well in 2024 in this situation, guess what, that's not a bad problem to have. You'd have two very marketable QBs at that point, which is very valuable. More likely though, we would move on from DJ after 2024 or potentially move him in late 2024, and the rookie would then take over. And since you would have potentially traded away some more expensive vets in 2023, your cap situation after 2024 would be pretty good and you could then target free agents that make sense then.

I appreciate that it's a shame we're in this position, but this team has a history of clinging to a failed project for multiple years too long. Schoen doesn't strike me as the type to hold on to a clearly losing poker hand, as he is sharp enough to know he's risking his job doing that. Unless the team does a 180 with it performance starting this Sunday and beyond, I think some version of the above is what you'll see happen.

[bamagiantfan]

I think these are over-reactions.

I think the Giants will revert back to the short passing game that was successful last season. It minimizes the deficiencies on the O-line and allows Jones to get the ball out quickly and build confidence. I truly do not understand why that wasn't the plan against Seattle to begin with. There was too much looking deep that resulted in scrambles or sacks while Daniel Jones finished the game completing almost 80% of his passes. Just take what is there!

Miami can score points. They also can't defend worth a crap. The Giants were going to have to steal a game somewhere to make the playoffs anyway. Why not start now? You want to throw deep? This is the game, but take the first downs underneath first.

I agree that 1-5 would be a tough hole to climb out of, but looking at the schedule at the start of the season, 1-5 was certainly possible, if not likely.

[DaveBrown74]

I think these are over-reactions.

I think the Giants will revert back to the short passing game that was successful last season. It minimizes the deficiencies on the O-line and allows Jones to get the ball out quickly and build confidence. I truly do not understand why that wasn't the plan against Seattle to begin with. There was too much looking deep that resulted in scrambles or sacks while Daniel Jones finished the game completing almost 80% of his passes. Just take what is there!

Miami can score points. They also can't defend worth a crap. The Giants were going to have to steal a game somewhere to make the playoffs anyway. Why not start now? You want to throw deep? This is the game, but take the first downs underneath first.

I agree that 1-5 would be a tough hole to climb out of, but looking at the schedule at the start of the season, 1-5 was certainly possible, if not likely.

Prior to week one, nobody here was saying 1-5 was the likely outcome after six games for this team. In the predictions thread, the vast majority of people who responded had 10 or more wins for this team. And nobody had fewer than 7 or 8. If you're 1-5 and you still have two games left against the Eagles and 1 against Dallas (in Dallas), you have close to zero chance of winning even 7 games, let alone enough to have a shot at a wildcard berth.

So what's the point of sticking to the status quo if we're in that position? You say it's an overreaction, but I am not basing my opinion of the QB on just this four game sample set. He's been here for four years before this one. It wasn't a clean slate going into this year, and I have never been of the opinion that 2022 was anything special from him. I think we know what he is at this point. Is the macro strategy now really to spread the $47mm 2024 cap hit on this guy out and lock ourselves in to even more years with him? Can you say with confidence right now that you fully support centering this franchise around Daniel Jones for the next 4-5 years? Or should we at least give ourselves some alternative options at this point?

[Rambo89]

I think these are over-reactions.

I think the Giants will revert back to the short passing game that was successful last season. It minimizes the deficiencies on the O-line and allows Jones to get the ball out quickly and build confidence. I truly do not understand why that wasn't the plan against Seattle to begin with. There was too much looking deep that resulted in scrambles or sacks while Daniel Jones finished the game completing almost 80% of his passes. Just take what is there!

Miami can score points. They also can't defend worth a crap. The Giants were going to have to steal a game somewhere to make the playoffs anyway. Why not start now? You want to throw deep? This is the game, but take the first downs underneath first.

I agree that 1-5 would be a tough hole to climb out of, but looking at the schedule at the start of the season, 1-5 was certainly possible, if not likely.

This is exactly what the Giants have been running all season the short passing game and Jones checking down and going to underneath routes.  There is no looking down field or anticipating plays.  The problem is not that they haven't gone to the short passing game but rather than it's become predictable where Jones is going with the ball.

[Philosophers]

This is exactly what the Giants have been running all season the short passing game and Jones checking down and going to underneath routes.  There is no looking down field or anticipating plays.  The problem is not that they haven't gone to the short passing game but rather than it's become predictable where Jones is going with the ball.

Beat me to it.

[bamagiantfan]

Beat me to it.

This is exactly what the Giants have been running all season the short passing game and Jones checking down and going to underneath routes.  There is no looking down field or anticipating plays.  The problem is not that they haven't gone to the short passing game but rather than it's become predictable where Jones is going with the ball.

I disagree. Checkdowns were the problem against Seattle. Short routes should have been option 1, not checkdowns. Watch the replay. Jones looks downfield and scrambles after two seconds, still looking for options. In the second half, Seattle adjusted to the Giants always going empty in the backfield and sent an extra rusher off the edge.  There were not two seconds anymore. The ball needed to come out. Too me, the whole mess was on Kafka, not Jones.

Last year it was one step back, hit the back foot and the ball was out. James and Hodgins were constantly making catches on slants and quick curls. Now, they are getting greedy and the separation hasn't been there, or option one was a pass BEHIND the line of scrimmage. How is that going to work with this O-line?

[bamagiantfan]

One more thing, you can give Jones Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, and Stefon Diggs and throwing deep is not an option with this O-line and an empty set. It can't work.

[Stringer Bell]

Jim,

I am on the same page. I personally believe the season is over now, but if we fall to 1-5 it's definitely over. At that point in time, I would be fully in favor of putting various veterans (including Barkley) on the trade block and trying to build draft capital. This would help with filling holes and also as a means of trading up in the draft.

Under this strategic scenario I would be in favor of drafting a QB in the first round. Trading DJ in this offseason might be difficult given his massive 2024 cap hit, especially if his 2023 season continues to look like it has looked so far. More likely he'd still be a Giant in 2024 and, as far as I am concerned, would be the starter early in the season or potentially even for all of the season while the rookie spends up to a year practicing and learning. If DJ were to happen to play really well in 2024 in this situation, guess what, that's not a bad problem to have. You'd have two very marketable QBs at that point, which is very valuable. More likely though, we would move on from DJ after 2024 or potentially move him in late 2024, and the rookie would then take over. And since you would have potentially traded away some more expensive vets in 2023, your cap situation after 2024 would be pretty good and you could then target free agents that make sense then.

I appreciate that it's a shame we're in this position, but this team has a history of clinging to a failed project for multiple years too long. Schoen doesn't strike me as the type to hold on to a clearly losing poker hand, as he is sharp enough to know he's risking his job doing that. Unless the team does a 180 with it performance starting this Sunday and beyond, I think some version of the above is what you'll see happen.

Who is going to trade for an injured RB who will be a free agent at year's end?

[DaveBrown74]

Who is going to trade for an injured RB who will be a free agent at year's end?

I'm not suggesting you'll get much for him, but the trade deadline isn't until the last day of this month, so in theory if he comes back in the next couple of weeks and has a decent game or two, he may have some degree of marketability to a contender looking for another playmaker.

[beaugestus]

So, what is Shoen and Daboll supposed to run around and panic. Now is the time to be more judicious in their moves at this point. The root of the problem is the OL, with Andrew Thomas and the promising C in JMS is only 40% of a somewhat functional OL, with the possibility of Bredeson might help. Ezeudu, Mckethan, Neal the jury is still out. I think Glowinski and Lemieux have no future here. And what does Pugh offer to a desperate situation? They have an OL coach who we have asked to perform miracles with the talent on hand with the possibility his job being in jeopardy.

On Defense, I have questioned whether the league has caught up with Winks D. They are still getting gashed up the middle. I thought there would be take a little time with the secondary starting 2 rookie corners and a S in Pinnock who also is lacking experience. A pass rush is pretty non existent all contribute to the less than stellar defensive play.

I'm not a fan of making moves for their own sake.

[Rambo89]

I disagree. Checkdowns were the problem against Seattle. Short routes should have been option 1, not checkdowns. Watch the replay. Jones looks downfield and scrambles after two seconds, still looking for options. In the second half, Seattle adjusted to the Giants always going empty in the backfield and sent an extra rusher off the edge.  There were not two seconds anymore. The ball needed to come out. Too me, the whole mess was on Kafka, not Jones.

Last year it was one step back, hit the back foot and the ball was out. James and Hodgins were constantly making catches on slants and quick curls. Now, they are getting greedy and the separation hasn't been there, or option one was a pass BEHIND the line of scrimmage. How is that going to work with this O-line?

If Jones was looking downfield he'd see open receivers and go to them.  He's not he's always looking for the quick shorter route. 

[Giant Jim]

Who is going to trade for an injured RB who will be a free agent at year's end?

...I'm wondering if a contender would trade for Barkley near the trade deadline if he's healthy?... 

[Rambo89]

Wasn't McCaffrey hurt when the Panthers dealt him last year?  I know he had years left on his contract making the trade easier but that's not to say they couldn't get something for Barkley

[Giant Jim]

So, what is Shoen and Daboll supposed to run around and panic. Now is the time to be more judicious in their moves at this point. The root of the problem is the OL, with Andrew Thomas and the promising C in JMS is only 40% of a somewhat functional OL, with the possibility of Bredeson might help. Ezeudu, Mckethan, Neal the jury is still out. I think Glowinski and Lemieux have no future here. And what does Pugh offer to a desperate situation? They have an OL coach who we have asked to perform miracles with the talent on hand with the possibility his job being in jeopardy.

On Defense, I have questioned whether the league has caught up with Winks D. They are still getting gashed up the middle. I thought there would be take a little time with the secondary starting 2 rookie corners and a S in Pinnock who also is lacking experience. A pass rush is pretty non existent all contribute to the less than stellar defensive play.

I'm not a fan of making moves for their own sake.

It's not 40%. They need depth. When John Schmitz went down, the line went from poor to pathetic. Injuries are too common. This isn't the first time Thomas has been hurt. As for Neal, I wouldn't give up on him yet, but at this point, he's a big question mark. The team was and is being built wrong for at least 10 years now. Longer if you go back to Reese not reloading when the line started to get old. This is the 2nd time they reloaded with WR's & pass catching first TE's. It don't work. They're never going to win consistently until they have a decent line with adequate back ups and that's not going to happen in the next draft and free agent signing period.

I don't think the D needs nearly as much to fix.