Looking beyond Kayvon Thibodeaux's 5.5 sacks

[MightyGiants]

It seems that KT's 5.5 sacks have satisfied many in terms of how the 5th overall pick of the 2022 draft has been playing.   However, if you dig (using PFF because I can get the data) a bit deeper, the sacks seem to be covering up issues (admittedly, KT has played better the last couple of games).

5.5 sacks put KT on pace for a nice double-digit sack total.

HOWEVER

KT's pass rush win percentage

2022- 9.7%

2023- 6.9%

With so many sacks, one might wonder how that number could be lower.  It's because KT has gotten the sacks but is lacking in other pressures like hits

So far in 2023 KT has 1 hit

In 2022 he had 12 hits

Missed tackle rate

In 2022 it was 4.2%

In 2023 it has been 12.5%

It appears that KT still has more work to do to avoid being considered not a bust or perhaps more likely a disappointment as a 5th overall pick.

[Jclayton92]

Right now I think you take the sacks and then hope that he builds on everything else. We are in year 2 and he still has a lot of growing to do. So yay for the sacks and just hope everything else develops.

[Philosophers]

Answer:  clean up sacks at end of longer plays not pressure sacks shortening a play because he dances and has no strength (power) moves.

When an edge/DE attacks with force and strength generated pressure, he will generate non-sack pressure.  Thibs does notndo that.

He pressures lightly then as QB moves around with play taking longer he makes a sack.  His sacks are more from coverage than DL instant pressure.

[Bob In PA]

It seems that KT's 5.5 sacks have satisfied many in terms of how the 5th overall pick of the 2022 draft has been playing.   However, if you dig (using PFF because I can get the data) a bit deeper, the sacks seem to be covering up issues (admittedly, KT has played better the last couple of games).

Rich: Your hard work/analysis proves IMO only that you can't analyze just part of a season or a few games.

Although interesting, IMO it's not meaningful except in the narrowest of contexts.

Giants played mostly against top-shelf tackles in the first four games. Whether or not there's reason to continue to hold out hope remains to be seen as he plays (hopefully all of) the remaining games, IMO.

Bob

[Ed Vette]

How many sacks would he have if Lawrence didn't apply pressure and put them right on his lap.
How is his pass coverage?
How is his Run Defense?
Tackling?

He wasn't just drafted to apply pressure and get sacks. Drafted that high you want the complete package.

[MightyGiants]

How many sacks would he have if Lawrence didn't apply pressure and put them right on his lap.
How is his pass coverage?
How is his Run Defense?
Tackling?

He wasn't just drafted to apply pressure and get sacks. Drafted that high you want the complete package.

I can't answer the first one, but...

[4 Aces]

He's not an impact player.

You don't need stats to tell you that.

Big disappointment - although I don't think it was wise to draft an ER in Wink's scheme either. He does not use them like most other schemes do. He schemes his pressure, and he needs his talent in the back 7.

[Ed Vette]

I can't answer the first one, but...

Mic Drop...
BOOM

[Ed Vette]

Mic Drop...
BOOM

Although he is improving. I'll give him that.

[Jclayton92]

Although he is improving. I'll give him that.

his pass rush win rate is significantly better the last 3 weeks as opposed to the first handful. I think it almost doubled.

[zephirus]

Let me ask a question - is it at all possible that other teams think Thibodeaux is the Giants best edge-rushing threat and therefore game-plan specifically to neutralize him?  How often is he getting chipped by a RB?  How often is a tight end double-teaming him?

How many more pass-rushing attempts did he have on a per game basis last year?  The Giants got routinely blown out early in the year - usually when teams are ahead that much they're running the ball to eat clock.  If/when they decide to throw despite being up big, they're usually not putting themselves in a position to get sacked and do quick throws that minimize the risk. 

[umassgrad]

I don't need stats, I watch film of him, the guy doesn't have the desire to be great, average player on one 1 contract course.

[Philosophers]

I don't need stats, I watch film of him, the guy doesn't have the desire to be great, average player on one 1 contract course.

Your point is the point.  Just watch him.  It's not like he takes plays off because he does not, but he does not ATTACK.  He tries to dance around his blocker. 

[Jclayton92]

Your point is the point.  Just watch him.  It's not like he takes plays off because he does not, but he does not ATTACK.  He tries to dance around his blocker. 

But Is that scheme or effort? We don't know because the job edge defenders have in Winks scheme is completely different than any other defense.

[beaugestus]

In my eye test, I don't see the quickness as with Ojulari, it seems that he has tried to set an edge on most plays. That would be a reason for his not attempting an inside move (if he has one) due to his responsibilities. I do see that he has enough strength to fight for his position. I saw an interview with Tiki with him stating that KT is not happy with his role in the D. I, from what I have seen, was overrated prior to the draft.