From The Athletic (subscriber's only) this morning by Dan Duggan
In a nutshell: Schoen tried to turn the team around too fast. Instead of slowly building the team and coaching up current players, he took a few too many swings for the fences in order to shorten the timeline, i.e., trading for Waller (a known oft-injury prone player), paying Saquon, and grasping at Parris Campbell in hopes of getting new offensive weapons in the arsenal "now", and in order to get players quicker, he went against his belief and started to restructure contracts to free up money, opposite his own belief. From the article: "Schoen frequently described restructures as a 'last resort' during his first offseason, but they became common practice..." Pushing the cap down the road was always viewed by Schoen as "break glass in case of emergency", but he did it anyway. A lot of it was driven by his successful first season causing a false sense of success, and then he went against his own premonitions and strayed from the lesson he preached about the virtue of "patience"
Duggan does praise Schoen for getting Okereke and locking up Dex...for which I concur
It's because of that first season's success. The whole plan got thrown out of wack. They should have been terrible, they tried to be terrible, and in fact they weren't all that good they just wont a lot of close games late with dumb luck and good coaching. But it's so hard to look the fan base in the eye and say I know we just went to and won a playoff game...but we're getting rid of the QB, getting rid of best offensive player we have, and going forward with the plan with Tyrod Taylor at QB.
The 2022 team had recovered from a dumpster fire season which is about as traumatic as it gets for a football team. Schoen and Daboll and company brought new hope to the organization, two top-ten draft picks, a fresh start, a much easier schedule than in previous seasons and a shot in the arm to start the season in Tennessee with a bold two-point score and a Titans' last second missed FG to secure the opening day win. They implemented a risk-averse offensive game plan with a blitz-happy defensive game plan which enabled the team to pull off a Wild Card berth and playoff win. The circumstances around season 2022, and the manner in which Daboll and company played their cards, enabled this outcome. But no two seasons are alike and, with 2023, a much more difficult schedule, the inability for the team to take a step forward in growth and progress due to .... (NOTE: fill in the blank ... injuries, lack of talent, poor coaching, etc.) and their ultimate inability to bridge the gap between their key division rivals meant it really was no surprise that they struggled in 2023.
At this point, forget about the off-season drama because what's done is done and it's time to pick up and move forward with getting the right coaches and players who are going to fit into the master plan that Schoen and Daboll sold Mara and Tisch which got them the Giants' job. The bloom is now off the rose and it's time to capture the lessons learned, in the first two seasons, and implement the corrective/preventive actions going forward that will mitigate the risks, which turned into issues during the past season, and correct those issues and develop preventive actions to ensure those issues do not happen again.
It will require brutal honesty in their performance evaluations and it is up to Mara and Tisch to provide that honesty to them. Another season, like the one past, cannot happen again next season or the whole thing will go the way of the dumpster, yet again, and there will be yet another smell in the North Jersey air apart from the Exxon refinery off 1&9 in Linden.
Peace!
The benefit of 20/20 hindsight. If Dan had written this article in August (or any time last offseason), I would have been impressed. There were many mistakes that led to the disaster of 2023, with the benefit of hindsight. I would suggest that accelerating the rebuild process only made the disaster worse, rather than was a cause of this terrible season.
Campbell and Waller were Gettleman type moves. As soon as Schoen had money to spend, he went right for skill players while fielding an unknown offensive line with no depth. The Barkley contract only kept him here for 1 year and now it's off the books. He did good with Jones, no one knew he would be hurt and possibly not ready to start next season. If Jones isn't the answer, most of his contract is gone after '24.
I don't recall anyone here panning the Waller deal at the time it was made.
I still have a lot of confidence in Schoen, but I hope he did learn something from this year. As the point was made above, he and the organization were a bit too seduced over the 2022 season and pushed things a bit too much.
I am not that worried over signings like Waller or Campbell, as they weren't huge money and getting out of those contracts is pretty easy. The Jones signing though looks horrible.
I still am very concerned about our player development though. I am a big Alabama fan.... you can't tell me that Neal should be a bust two years in. Not saying he should be a star, but he has a high floor at worst. Banks had a good year, but was it good enough? Hyatt didn't have a year like his preseason would have suggested. Schmitz wasn't what was expected. I am really starting to wonder if our player development is the bigger problem than the players we are drafting. I just feel like we are not getting the most out of the players drafted.
I like Schoen. I want to keep him here for a long time. Sometimes when you're meeting with the boss or having lunch or just a passing conversation, a high level executive or an owner can make a subtle comment. Then you may wind up acting over it because you believe it's direction.
I know what was pushed to the public and I don't completely buy it. There was a sense of urgency in getting this team on the right track. There was a short term goal to support Daniel Jones and develop him. I believe the owners like the man. He embodies everything they like in the face of the franchise and leader of the team.
I'm sure that Schoen would have liked to invest more money in the trenches. Instead he bolstered the Receiving weapons to give Jones better targets. So he had to gamble on Neal improving and quite frankly, I thought he would rebound this year too. He drafts a highly regarded Center. I have to place the blame on Daboll because he should have known that his buddy wasn't cutting it as an Oline Coach. There was no solid backup plan for the OT's. That's on Daboll.
Now he must see something special in Daboll to support him. I hope he's right. I don't want to lose Schoen.
Simply put, last year screwed everything up but people wanted to buy into the record. I didn't mind the Jones contract and hindsight is 20/20 but the prudent move probably would have been to move on and sign someone like Baker Mayfield as a stopgap for a year. But how do you justify moving on from your QB after winning 9 games and then a playoff game? And then it got compounded by trading a top 100 pick for a 30 year old tight end who can't stay healthy.
Quote from: Giant Jim on January 18, 2024, 04:01:31 PMCampbell and Waller were Gettleman type moves. As soon as Schoen had money to spend, he went right for skill players while fielding an unknown offensive line with no depth. The Barkley contract only kept him here for 1 year and now it's off the books. He did good with Jones, no one knew he would be hurt and possibly not ready to start next season. If Jones isn't the answer, most of his contract is gone after '24.
The Waller deal I would argue is one that wouldn't fall into a rushed category. They gave up so little for a potential stud and he is still under contract so it wasn't a one year rental.
The Jones deal on the other hand is probably more of an egregious mistake to me but again I imagine he just didn't want to hear the fans lose their minds over starting Tyrod Taylor and ending up in the top 5 of the draft again after they had just made the playoffs. Even if that was the intended plan as I think it was and should have been prior to the 2022 season. If nothing else he did give himself a parachute escape after next season with Jones which at least shows, unlike Gettleman, he did have an eye on the future and a plan in place.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 18, 2024, 05:53:33 PMSimply put, last year screwed everything up but people wanted to buy into the record. I didn't mind the Jones contract and hindsight is 20/20 but the prudent move probably would have been to move on and sign someone like Baker Mayfield as a stopgap for a year. But how do you justify moving on from your QB after winning 9 games and then a playoff game? And then it got compounded by trading a top 100 pick for a 30 year old tight end who can't stay healthy.
We had members here who predicted Waller would be the leading receiver with well over 1000 yards and mega TD's. He was DJ's savior.
If you want to be very fancy... but to me it's simple... O line.. he F**ked up with his overall O line talent evaluation, and he wrongly assumed that Neal's problems are behind him.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 18, 2024, 04:08:47 PMI don't recall anyone here panning the Waller deal at the time it was made.
I recall a number of people expressing concern about the level of commitment they were making to a player with a recent injury history and a 2 year gap since his hey day. A lot of "IF he is the 2019-2020 Waller" qualifiers. There was little reason to think he was that guy -- and as it turned out he wasn't.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 18, 2024, 06:09:15 PMWe had members here who predicted Waller would be the leading receiver with well over 1000 yards and mega TD's. He was DJ's savior.
We all wanted to pretend he wasn't a 30 year old that missed significant time over the previous two seasons. Also, the 100th overall pick isn't exactly nothing. This wasn't giving up a 7th for Simmons.
Schoen needs more time to establish his brand on this team. What he inherited was more than a complete mess it was downright atrocious. He has done some good work and he has messed up a few times also. Everyone can't hit a home run every time at bat, there have to be a few misses also.
We can sit here and list his good things and bad things, but overall, I believe the Giants are better now than when he took over.
My one really bad deal was the Jones thing and we don't know, or may never know, if that came from Mara, and Schoen's hands were tied. I always said he should have played hardball because no team was going to give Jones what he was asking for. But we have to make the best of it.
I feel a GM needs 4 years to turn the culture around. If, after that time, we are still mired in mediocrity, then we move on. Schoen still gets 2 more years from me.
Quote from: LennG on January 19, 2024, 12:03:21 PMSchoen needs more time to establish his brand on this team. What he inherited was more than a complete mess it was downright atrocious. He has done some good work and he has messed up a few times also. Everyone can't hit a home run every time at bat, there have to be a few misses also.
We can sit here and list his good things and bad things, but overall, I believe the Giants are better now than when he took over.
My one really bad deal was the Jones thing and we don't know, or may never know, if that came from Mara, and Schoen's hands were tied. I always said he should have played hardball because no team was going to give Jones what he was asking for. But we have to make the best of it.
I feel a GM needs 4 years to turn the culture around. If, after that time, we are still mired in mediocrity, then we move on. Schoen still gets 2 more years from me.
Len,
In fairness, most of Shoen's best players he inherited- Andrew Thomas, Barkley, Darius Slayton, Dexter Lawerence, Leonard Williams, McKinney, Adoree Jackson,
For me the bigger issue now is not where Schoen went wrong re FA, the Draft, or even the currently problematic Daniel Jones contract, but rather did he go wrong in his choice of Brian Daboll as HC, should it turn out that Dabs is indeed the self-absorbed, sometimes officious martinet as some are now suggesting? It is an issue which must be clarified and resolved, first and foremost. Only then, can we get back to nickel and diming.
Cheers!
Even though D Jones didnt work out
We had to see for sure what he would become
Isnt it better if we draft a Rookie QB wouldnt it be better to learn from D Jones
Look.at Z wilson
The jets ruined him
For ever rookie QB that does great
Many more need to learn and sit
Its an expensive babysitting
But if it makes the rookie better
Than it was worth it
Look at Love
Quote from: Painter on January 19, 2024, 05:16:38 PMFor me the bigger issue now is not where Schoen went wrong re FA, the Draft, or even the currently problematic Daniel Jones contract, but rather did he go wrong in his choice of Brian Daboll as HC, should it turn out that Dabs is indeed the self-absorbed, sometimes officious martinet as some are now suggesting? It is an issue which must be clarified and resolved, first and foremost. Only then, can we get back to nickel and diming.
Cheers!
Larry
I was always under the assumtion that Daboll was Mara's choice and not Schoens, that Mara did that hire.
Schoen and Daboll were the clear cut choices at the beginning. No one else was seriously considering.
I keep coming back to the point that the oddsmakers set the win line before the start of the season at 6 1/2 which was bet up to 7 1/2 pretty quickly. Somebody knew the team wasn't that good but fans in general and especially fans that frequent this site and other thought we were a double digit win team & closed the gap on the Cowboys and Eagles. I dont think Schoen was all in but he definitely wasnt on rebuilding mode last year and i dont think all out rebuilding was possible after winning a playoff game. I dont think Schoen made many major mistakes snd I do think much of the criticism is Monday morning QB as mentioned above
Quote from: LennG on January 19, 2024, 07:44:36 PMLarry
I was always under the assumtion that Daboll was Mara's choice and not Schoens, that Mara did that hire.
For what it's worth, when people talked about Schoen as a potential GM candidate, they always added that he would bring Daboll as his head coach (which was considered a plus).
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 20, 2024, 09:28:54 AMFor what it's worth, when people talked about Schoen as a potential GM candidate, they always added that he would bring Daboll as his head coach (which was considered a plus).
Indeed. All other interviews were a sham.
Once again, the stench of Mara is all over this.
The idea of rebuilding while "still trying to win" and "fix Daniel Jones" are reaches that cannot live together.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 20, 2024, 09:28:54 AMFor what it's worth, when people talked about Schoen as a potential GM candidate, they always added that he would bring Daboll as his head coach (which was considered a plus).
Rich and Lenn, that was my understanding as well. The two were a GM/HC package. A fresh start without conflict or Mara cronyism in making the choice.
My question/concern is that having been elevated to Head Coach, whether or not it has gone to Daboll's head in less than a favorable way. I sure hope not as Schoen has enough challenges as it is, as do we all.
Cheers!