Lesson Learned

[zephirus]

I openly advocated for the Giants trading down in 2022 with one or both first rounders and securing Linderbaum as one of the picks in the middle of the first round, and was routinely laughed at here.

"You can't spend first round capital on interior linemen when you have top 10 picks" - really?  I believe you can, but we often believe gambling on a tackle is better than a sure thing at guard or center.  Good teams like the Ravens have been doing this for years, grabbing incredibly polished guys at under-drafted positions. 

Not only did they get a ProBowl plug-and-play center, they got Kyle Hamilton earlier in the first at safety (another underappreciated first round position) who turned in a fantastic season as well (4 ints, 3 sacks). 

This is how the Giants need to avoid the dreaded "we did just good enough to not be eligible for a top tier quarterback" routine.  Stop swinging for the fences and just hit a few singles.

[WheresDayne]

I think Ed hit the nail on the head.  We can scout perfectly, but if we don't have the coaches to hone the skills of the players, it's fruitless.  We've seen OLinemen come here and get worse, not better.  I hope the new coaches can finally help build a good O Line!

[Philosophers]

I think Ed hit the nail on the head.  We can scout perfectly, but if we don't have the coaches to hone the skills of the players, it's fruitless.  We've seen OLinemen come here and get worse, not better.  I hope the new coaches can finally help build a good O Line!

I hope the new coach teaches them to be a unit not just 5 individual pieces.

[Bob In PA]

I openly advocated for the Giants trading down in 2022 with one or both first rounders and securing Linderbaum as one of the picks in the middle of the first round, and was routinely laughed at here.

Lee: Me too. When I heard he went to the Ravens (a top drafting team) I felt really bad for the Giants.  Bob

[TDToomer]

It most definitely is, you're totally right. Unfortunately the Giants seem to elevate and anoint all the wrong people before they've earned it.

Case in point Daniel Jones and Xavier McKinney. Both named Captains before really doing much of anything. Good players yes, but very young. They would've been better served waiting a few years and it would've meant more. Kind of how LT and Carl Banks were great players but George Martin and Harry Carson easily were the leaders and Captain types.

Pretty much every team names their QB as a captain. In Jones case he has been a starter for 5 seasons in a league where careers last 5-10 years more or less. Just how long should the leader of the offense for 5 straight seasons have to wait to meet your rigid threshold? There is nothing wrong with a 4 year veteran being named Captain like McKinney. They are voted by their own players.

LT and Banks were captains after Carson retired in 88. It was a different time with the Giants only naming 1-2 player captain each season.

[Philosophers]

This was not a post about Tyler L but about a narrow view that he was undersized going into the pros and that he'd be limited.  He proved them wrong.  Gained real weight but kept his great technique.

We should learn not to go down erroneous paths but consider everything. 

[Trench]

Pretty much every team names their QB as a captain. In Jones case he has been a starter for 5 seasons in a league where careers last 5-10 years more or less. Just how long should the leader of the offense for 5 straight seasons have to wait to meet your rigid threshold? There is nothing wrong with a 4 year veteran being named Captain like McKinney. They are voted by their own players.

LT and Banks were captains after Carson retired in 88. It was a different time with the Giants only naming 1-2 player captain each season.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone on the fact they got named Captain. What I am saying is in my opinion it actually placed more pressure on these two guys who as of yet hadn't accomplished much of anything except being starting players. Leaving them under the radar another year or two wouldn't have hurt at all.

[TDToomer]

I'm not disagreeing with anyone on the fact they got named Captain. What I am saying is in my opinion it actually placed more pressure on these two guys who as of yet hadn't accomplished much of anything except being starting players. Leaving them under the radar another year or two wouldn't have hurt at all.

This is an incredible hill you are dying on. I don't think you get how short NFL careers are. And how short Giants defensive players careers are with only DLaw getting an extension by Schoen so far. McKinney is obviously highly respected by his teammates and only Jackson, also a captain, has more experience than him in the secondary. So there isn't another starter in the secondary who would meet your archaic standards.

[Bob In PA]

I agree with the comments about Jones.  In his case, IMO, being a "captain" may be mostly an "honorary" title.

I don't know, but suspect, the case of McKinney is different. 

Again I don't know, but it is possible McKinney and Daboll are more on the same page about defense than McKinney and Wink were. If true, that added information would give McKinney a "pass" IMO.

Bob

[TDToomer]

I agree with the comments about Jones.  In his case, IMO, being a "captain" may be mostly an "honorary" title.

I don't know, but suspect, the case of McKinney is different. 

Again I don't know, but it is possible McKinney and Daboll are more on the same page about defense than McKinney and Wink were. If true, that added information would give McKinney a "pass" IMO.

Bob

The coaches do not choose the captains. They are voted by their fellow players. So nothing "honorary" about them voting for starting QB who had just taken the team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. I bet Danny Kanell was voted in as a co-captain in 1998.

[Bob In PA]

The coaches do not choose the captains. They are voted by their fellow players.  So nothing "honorary" about them voting for starting QB who had just taken the team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. I bet Danny Kanell was voted in as a co-captain in 1998.

TD: My post was unclear.

I know who chooses the captains and agree with the bold part of your comment.

My point is that the starting QB is a captain on just about every NFL team, because players know how important the QB is in the NFL to the team's success, especially in this pass-happy version of the league.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

I think the thing with Linderbaum or any other outlier prospect isn't that they can't succeed, it's more of an issue that outliers tend to succeed less often than those that meet the established criteria for a player.  In other words, the exception doesn't make the rule.

Here's an example-  Orlando Brown Jr. was in terrible shape and put up terrible numbers at the Combine.  He got drafted and has had a relatively successful NFL career (better than most expected).  That doesn't mean we should draw a lesson that out-of-shape players and/or poor Combine performers should be sought after.  It simply means outliers can succeed; there are no absolutes.

[Bob In PA]

I think the thing with Linderbaum or any other outlier prospect isn't that they can't succeed, it's more of an issue that outliers tend to succeed less often than those that meet the established criteria for a player.  In other words, the exception doesn't make the rule.

Here's an example-  Orlando Brown Jr. was in terrible shape and put up terrible numbers at the Combine.  He got drafted and has had a relatively successful NFL career (better than most expected).  That doesn't mean we should draw a lesson that out-of-shape players and/or poor Combine performers should be sought after.  It simply means outliers can succeed; there are no absolutes.

Rich: That's all good, but in the case of Linderbaum I (for one) believed the aspects making him an outlier in the NFL would not prevent him from succeeding, not only because of his excellence in all other measures of a center but also because question marks actually assisted him in elevating other aspects of his game that could prove quite valuable if used appropriately.  In other words, the coaching staff did a great job putting him in a position to succeed by taking advantage of his superior mobility (think Jason Kelce). Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: That's all good, but in the case of Linderbaum I (for one) believed the aspects making him an outlier in the NFL would not prevent him from succeeding, not only because of his excellence in all other measures of a center but also because his question marks actually assisted him in elevating other aspects of his game that could prove quite valuable if used appropriately.  In other words, the coaching staff did a great job putting him in a position to succeed by taking advantage of his superior mobility (think Jason Kelce). Bob

Bob,

You will never hear me disagree about the importance of development when it comes to draft picks.

[Trench]

This is an incredible hill you are dying on. I don't think you get how short NFL careers are. And how short Giants defensive players careers are with only DLaw getting an extension by Schoen so far. McKinney is obviously highly respected by his teammates and only Jackson, also a captain, has more experience than him in the secondary. So there isn't another starter in the secondary who would meet your archaic standards.

I assure you I'm not dying on any hill. Just responding to a post during the down time after a sad season.

Just because he is the elder member of a secondary doesn't anoint him a spot as Captain and if the players are simply voting on it then I assure u that isn't always the best way either because many times these things are a popularity contest.

I simply believe too many chefs can spoil the meal. I also believe the head coach should choose his captain(s) and 10 is way too many and defeats the purpose/waters it down in my opinion.