Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on Today at 12:49:13 AMIf you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."

REBUTTAL:  Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs?  You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know.  What I stated, and objectively proved is that both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."  Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs. 

"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."

REBUTTAL:  As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one year worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data.  However, since you brought it up, I will do so again below, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."

"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."

REBUTTAL:   You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? You might be young and fail to understand the value of opposing views. I knew from past research that your statement was factually wrong, and provided the data to support it.

"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."

REBUTTAL:   This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP."  Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee."  BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham or Nicks as 'elite', especially the former.  How did both do without Manning?  More importantly, this statement literally proves your own conclusion false: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."  As it relates to Manning, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection.  As you highlighted, he enjoyed a goo WR trio in 2011 and superstar in OBJ in 2015.  So, based on your input, it would appear the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL).  At a minimum, you should probably reevaluate this assertion?  Regardless, I digress as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings

BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false. 

Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:

2008    11  (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009    6  (12 Pass Blocking)
2010    13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011    31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012   11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013    28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014    20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015    20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016   20 (24 Pass Blocking)

2008*   27   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009    28    16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010    29    16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013    32    16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014    33    16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB
2016    35   16   377   598   63.0   4027   26   16 86.0   45.7
   
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers."  On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).

Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and  28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 6 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings.  His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.

The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances.  Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines.   Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point?  Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs?   I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.

IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to continue the rouse that his success was predicted on an elite Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline was anything but good.  From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play.  Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite. 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

Here are Tom Brady's offensive line numbers, his last three were on the Bucs, and the rest were on the Patriots.

Tampa Bay Bucs offensive line rankings

2022 ranked 4th
2021 ranked 2nd
2020 ranked 5th

New England Patriots offensive line rankings

2019 ranked 10th
2018 ranked 4th
2017 ranked 3rd
2016 ranked 10th
2015 ranked 25th
2014 ranked 23rd
2013 ranked 14th
2012 ranked 2nd
2011 ranked 3rd
2010 ranked 3rd
2009 ranked 3rd
2008 ranked 1st
2007 ranked 1st
2006 ranked 3rd

From 2001-2004 Tom Brady also had LT Matt Light who made 3 pro bowls, Dan Koppen who was a pro bowl center, and from 2005-2013 had Logan Mankins. He wasn't just New England's best offensive lineman, there was no better lineman in the NFL over that nine-season stretch in which he made six Pro Bowls.

For twelve seasons Brady played behind a top five offensive line.

For three seasons played behind a top 15 offensive line.

For two seasons played behind a top 25 offensive line.

The majority of this man's career he was playing behind a top five offensive line. Whether that was with the Bucs or the Patriots.

If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest.

Have at it, as I'm now going to go to sleep.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

You asked everyone to "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their careers. It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense."

All king did was give you an example of both players in their prime with horrible lines still thriving. He is one of the most knowledgeable and respectful people that post here.

We are all adults here, you've got to stop thinking everyone is attacking you with their responses. Just because someone replies either correcting you or informing you of something doesn't mean it's hostile, it's a NFL football forum, not a kids table.

You claimed king was cherry picking data when infact he was simply answering your question.

There are a ton of Qbs that you can list that played behind horrible olines and still produced at the highest levels.

Matt Stafford
Patrick Mahomes
Tony Romo
Andrew Luck
Peyton Manning
Deshaun Watson
Russell Wilson

These are just a few off the top of my head without doing research.

Eli Manning had a great line for about 4-5 of his 16 years, he spent 3/4th of his career behind a bad one.

Quote from: LennG on May 04, 2024, 07:43:00 PMYour stats are fine, but he did mention, most clearly, that Eli also played behind one of the worst OLs in the league and we won a SB behind them.
I don't care if Eli had the best OLs for most of his career, fact is Eli had one of the worst and he won with it. For all the excuses so many have given for Jones and his OL, how come he can't do the same?

Lenn,

You make a good point.

we need to keep in mind Eli in 2011 had not one, but three elite WR's in Nicks, Manningham and Cruz.

With that supporting cast he was able to do it for one year, but as I have brought out up above he couldn't elevate the team in 2013 with the 28th ranked O line.

In fact he threw 18 TD's to 27 Int's and a QBR rating that is awful.

Then in 2017 his line was ranked 26th, and he got benched.

The question we need to ask is why couldn't Eli Manning elevate the entire offense in 2013 and 2017 if his O line didn't matter?

The answer is because his O line did matter, and it was letting him down and that is why he had his worst years.

It wasn't his fault, as his line let him down but this is what the data is showing.

I will work on Tom Brady's offensive line later when I have more time.

I'm tired now

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 07:35:34 AMWhat evidence do you have to support that statement?  Concerning Brady, he had a completely new system in TB and enjoyed career years; conversely, the system you claim was culpable for his success has been abysmal since his departure.  The architect of said system, now has a record of 82-98 without Tom Brady. QBs like Brady and Manning are successful wherever they go, while their OCs like McDaniels and Adam Case are duds.  It should be clear as day the QB is more important to the system, than the system is to the QB.  In short, good QBs are going to be good, regardless of the system. 

"save for the randy moss years, tom was never exactly airing it out. he was hitting guys underneath that could pick up YAC"

This statement is just false.   

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/tom-brady-passes-over-20-yards-by-year

Brady is probably not the guy you want to use to prove that QB needs elite WRs to be successful, or an Oline for that matter. 

Here are more stats of Eli Manning's offensive line rankings

2010 ranked 13th

https://www.pff.com/news/2010-offensive-line-rankings-%25e2%2580%2593-part-2

2012 ranked 11th

link

2013 ranked 28th

worst year of his career

18 TD's to 27 Int and an atrocious QBR Rating

link

2014-2016 lines were ranked around 20th

2017 ranked 26th

link

So in 2013 and 2017 when is offensive line was absolutely atrocious, he put up his worst years, and was ultimately benched for Geno Smith in 2017.

For the majority of his career 2005-2012 he played behind a top 5 to top 10 offensive line.

Then from 2013-2017 the line began to deteriorate.

In two out of four of those years he was atrocious, and it wasn't his fault, because his line let him down.

I will work on Tom Bradys offensive line numbers later when I have more time

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 04, 2024, 06:40:43 PMIt is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

Your stats are fine, but he did mention, most clearly, that Eli also played behind one of the worst OLs in the league and we won a SB behind them.
I don't care if Eli had the best OLs for most of his career, fact is Eli had one of the worst and he won with it. For all the excuses so many have given for Jones and his OL, how come he can't do the same?

No Receivers.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was capable of making his Line look better than they were
  2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
  2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
  2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to allowing just 16 sacks; funny how that works
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

It is generally not good to attack or put down a poster and then say "did you bother to research your own question? clearly not"...

And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it.

This is what we call the logical fallacy of cherry picking, using just one example and then building an entire world view around it, which misleads yourself and those who listen to you.

But this isn't the first time you have done this, you have a built-up history of this kind of behavior.

So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning.

Has Eli Manning really played behind a terrible offensive line like "Kingm56" has claimed? Well, what do the facts actually show?

New York Giants offensive line rankings

2005 - ranked 4th best in the NFL

Link

2007 - The 2007 offensive line was one of the best in the league, if not the best. It was also completely healthy. Snee was a dominant player, and O'Hara and Seubert were excellent. McKenzie was one of the league's best right tackles and Diehl did an adequate job on the left side.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2012/6/20/3099072/2007-giants-vs-2011-giants-comparing-super-bowl-champs-offensive-lines

2008 - ranked #1

link

2009 - Considered the best offensive line in the league

link

So, I have just shown four years where Eli Manning played behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and I haven't even begun to go through 2010-2018, but later I will.

In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Cruz took a 9 yard out and ran it for 99 yards against the Jets for a TD. He did the same thing with a 7 yard out for 74 yards against the cowboys.

So, before you attack or attempt to put down another poster, which really isn't tolerated here, I would encourage you in the future, if you really want to know the correct answer to something, and to be taken seriously, it is best to look at all the years and all the data, to come to a proper conclusion, instead of only using one of Eli Mannings years.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on May 04, 2024, 06:20:57 PMThere is more than ZERO evidence.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nfl/article-12691269/NFL-Trade-Deadline-Giants-star-Saquon-Barkley-draws-DeAndre-Hopkins-coy-possible-deal-Broncos-good-offer-wide-receiver-Jerry-Jeudy.html

Again, "interest" and "offers" are 2 different things. To Mighty's and others' point earlier, had someone offered a 3rd rounder, you can bet those details would have leaked. But that never happened.

Like Doc said, GM's do their due diligence on a ton of guys all the time. That's their job. That would be construed as "interest".

But that's a far cry from saying unequivocally that the Giants failed in trading Saquon. Maybe someone did try to lowball them and offered a 5th. Would that have been a failure in not accepting that?

Quote from: Stringer Bell on May 04, 2024, 06:10:20 PMThis is my issue. You state it as fact that they received trade offers for him and turned them down, when there is zero evidence that it happened.

There is more than ZERO evidence.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nfl/article-12691269/NFL-Trade-Deadline-Giants-star-Saquon-Barkley-draws-DeAndre-Hopkins-coy-possible-deal-Broncos-good-offer-wide-receiver-Jerry-Jeudy.html

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/10/31/new-york-giants-receiving-trade-calls-about-saquon-barkley/