https://x.com/nydailynews/status/1773096671162818653?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Does "still trying to win" mean he thought they might make the playoffs?
"Still trying to win" for the sake of winning when you know you have zero chance of actually contending and almost zero chance of the playoffs, instead of investing in your future during a throwaway season, sounds so absurdly foolish.
Also if what he said is true, why did they trade Leo?
Makes no sense.
They were never going to try and re-sign Leo. They wanted to re-sign Barkley but the money wasn't going to match up once they found out that WHOOPS there actually was a large market for Saquon.
Makes plenty of sense. And I happen to agree with it- I think it would be an awful look to just do a wholesale firesale at that point in the season.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on March 27, 2024, 08:27:51 PMThey were never going to try and re-sign Leo. They wanted to re-sign Barkley but the money wasn't going to match up once they found out that WHOOPS there actually was a large market for Saquon.
Makes plenty of sense. And I happen to agree with it- I think it would be an awful look to just do a wholesale firesale at that point in the season.
How motivated do you think they really were to sign Barkley? They didn't tag him, and there were plenty of reports he was going to hit the free agent market. I would not say they made any real effort to sign him. I think it was a total waste to not trade him. "We were still trying to win" in the context of what this team was in 2023 is an absurd explanation.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 27, 2024, 08:45:46 PMHow motivated do you think they really were to sign Barkley? They didn't tag him, and there were plenty of reports he was going to hit the free agent market. I would not say they made any real effort to sign him. I think it was a total waste to not trade him. "We were still trying to win" in the context of what this team was in 2023 is an absurd explanation.
If I can touch on this... remember that the RB market was depressed last season and there was a reasonable expectation that they might be able to reach a mutual agreement which from the perspective of Management and Ownership was in their favor. The shallow RB class changed that market along with teams that needed a two way back. Other teams see the Giants situation differently than some of us do. Some of us see Saquon as a rapidly aging RB who is in his decline do to injuries and who struggles in the passing game and in Pass Protection. The Eagles saw a poor Offensive Line and a Shell Shocked QB who had an adverse effect on the performance of SB.
So the situation was viewed differently last season to this season and from the perspective of a team looking to round out their Roster to remain relevant and get back to becoming a Playoff contender.
Just my two cents.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 27, 2024, 07:51:51 PMDoes "still trying to win" mean he thought they might make the playoffs?
"Still trying to win" for the sake of winning when you know you have zero chance of actually contending and almost zero chance of the playoffs, instead of investing in your future during a throwaway season, sounds so absurdly foolish.
Also if what he said is true, why did they trade Leo?
Makes no sense.
No sense playing the game if you're not playing to win. If you are going to give up, at what point should you tell the players that you are giving up? 2-6 after 8 games?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 27, 2024, 08:45:46 PMHow motivated do you think they really were to sign Barkley? They didn't tag him, and there were plenty of reports he was going to hit the free agent market. I would not say they made any real effort to sign him. I think it was a total waste to not trade him. "We were still trying to win" in the context of what this team was in 2023 is an absurd explanation.
DB: IMO there are different levels of "motivated" and the Giants wanted him, just not badly (due to the cost). Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 27, 2024, 07:51:51 PMDoes "still trying to win" mean he thought they might make the playoffs?
"Still trying to win" for the sake of winning when you know you have zero chance of actually contending and almost zero chance of the playoffs, instead of investing in your future during a throwaway season, sounds so absurdly foolish.
Also if what he said is true, why did they trade Leo?
Makes no sense.
Unfortunately, Mara is part of that group that feels winning meaningless games is better than being well set in the draft to acquire assets that can assure the team's long-term success.
When Mara says he was hoping to re-sign Barkley, does that mean the team was trying including Schoen? Or, was Mara speaking like one of us, a fan? I wish he would stop talking about personnel
That quote makes me think Mara is still way too involved. Sounds like the subject was discussed and someone said don't trade him. Could be the coaches given the offensive looking offense they were putting on the field, but I have to wonder.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 27, 2024, 09:26:44 PMIf I can touch on this... remember that the RB market was depressed last season and there was a reasonable expectation that they might be able to reach a mutual agreement which from the perspective of Management and Ownership was in their favor. The shallow RB class changed that market along with teams that needed a two way back. Other teams see the Giants situation differently than some of us do. Some of us see Saquon as a rapidly aging RB who is in his decline do to injuries and who struggles in the passing game and in Pass Protection. The Eagles saw a poor Offensive Line and a Shell Shocked QB who had an adverse effect on the performance of SB.
So the situation was viewed differently last season to this season and from the perspective of a team looking to round out their Roster to remain relevant and get back to becoming a Playoff contender.
Just my two cents.
The Eagles who have played against Barkley 2X per year (minus injuries) for 5 years and have made a lot more good moves than bad, thought he was worth signing.
One question, didnt Barkley grade out as one of the top blockers at his position the last couple of years?
As for the passing game, I disagree with peoples assessment and am guessing Roseman does too. This this the guy that lined up as a WR and beat Marshon Lattimore for a long TD. RBs that can line up as WRs are definitely a commodity today.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 28, 2024, 09:18:42 AMThat quote makes me think Mara is still way too involved. Sounds like the subject was discussed and someone said don't trade him. Could be the coaches given the offensive looking offense they were putting on the field, but I have to wonder.
The Eagles who have played against Barkley 2X per year (minus injuries) for 5 years and have made a lot more good moves than bad, thought he was worth signing.
One question, didnt Barkley grade out as one of the top blockers at his position the last couple of years?
As for the passing game, I disagree with peoples assessment and am guessing Roseman does too. This this the guy that lined up as a WR and beat Marshon Lattimore for a long TD. RBs that can line up as WRs are definitely a commodity today.
Matt,
I specifically watched Barkley's speed (which is independent of the O-line). His speed (which made him a special RB) simply wasn't there last season. He was getting caught from behind when he did have breakout runs or large holes to run through.
As for his receiving, even Barkley knows he has issues. He was constantly doing drills to work on his hand-eye coordination in the last two training camps I was at.
As for Howie Roseman, I don't believe he is the super genius some believe him to be. Yes, he has made some excellent trades, and unlike the Giants, he is willing to tank to help his team gain valuable draft capital, but beyond that, Howie has drafted and signed players who have failed as well as the hits that people like to focus on.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
I know there's been some debate over what John Mara said Monday regarding trade deadline dump deals and specifically Saquon Barkley.
If you enjoy the debate, check out my good friends
@ShaunMorash
and
@rydunleavy
who are entertaining all those who follow this morning.
But these two points are important from Mara: 1, the timing last year regarding Saquon - NYG still held out hope that Daniel Jones' return the week after the deadline would give them some life last year.
2, Mara still had hope that Giants could sign Saquon at their price. Obviously that did not happen, but it's also why he did not fault Schoen for not dealing him.
Message to the locker room at the time is a big point, but not every situation is the same. See Leonard Williams.
9:25 AM · Mar 28, 2024
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You guys need to stop focusing on what Mara's lips are saying and focus more on what likely happened behind the scenes.
- Does Mara gain anything other than alienating other players if he said "we had no intention of resigning Saquon"? It doesn't cost him anything to appear to have given it the old college try even if they knew it was unlikely they were going to bring him back.
- With Barkley being on a one year there would have been limited trade value for him. If a team in good position had wanted him they might have given up a late round pick to get him for the latter half of the season, but mind you, he was struggling with injuries yet again. Any team that wanted him with the intention of signing him long term during the season also probably would not have wanted to part with a lot of draft picks only to fork over more cash. Keep in mind that most teams are flying pretty close to the salary cap by the time the season kicks off.
- "We were still trying to win" sure sounds a whole lot better than "we couldn't get much for him on the market, we're paying him anyway, and if we retained him at least we get a compensatory draft pick".
So the options are trade away one of the best players on the team, telegraph that you're giving up on the season for peanuts or keep him around, take your lumps and earn a likely 3rd round pick as a consolation prize. I think Schoen et al got it right.
Should have traded him before the trade deadline in 2022. He hit a wall right after that.
His metrics are among the worst in the league, let someone else have him.
I watched the pod with him and the kelce Brothers and all he did was share his admiration for the Eagles and came off really insincere and fake.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 28, 2024, 09:28:31 AMMatt,
I specifically watched Barkley's speed (which is independent of the O-line). His speed (which made him a special RB) simply wasn't there last season. He was getting caught from behind when he did have breakout runs or large holes to run through.
As for his receiving, even Barkley knows he has issues. He was constantly doing drills to work on his hand-eye coordination in the last two training camps I was at.
As for Howie Roseman, I don't believe he is the super genius some believe him to be. Yes, he has made some excellent trades, and unlike the Giants, he is willing to tank to help his team gain valuable draft capital, but beyond that, Howie has drafted and signed players who have failed as well as the hits that people like to focus on.
I saw his speed decreased somewhat as well. We will see if he is rejuvenated with some time off and not having to carry the load of an entire offense.
Maybe this is one of Roseman's few mistakes, I sure hope so, but his record is pretty strong and its a player his team knows well. Hard for me to imagine they do not know what they are getting. Yes they have made mistakes, but they have obviously made more good decisions than the Giants over the last decade.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Every #Giants fan loves to jump on John Mara. Here is Joe Schoen's answer on why he didn't trade Daniel Jones.
It's curious to me that Saquon was considered vital to Daniel's success last year but not moving forward:
'He was one of our better offensive players, and we weren't giving up. We still wanted him to go out there and perform for us. I mean, we strung together some games together with Tommy, and Daniel was coming back.
'Again, I think we all wish things would have went better early in the season when Daniel was healthy. When he was coming back from the neck injury, we wanted to make sure they could go out there and operate. I think Saquon was a big part of that at that time.'
https://x.com/rydunleavy/status/1773348735612850403?s=20
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 27, 2024, 07:51:51 PMDoes "still trying to win" mean he thought they might make the playoffs?
"Still trying to win" for the sake of winning when you know you have zero chance of actually contending and almost zero chance of the playoffs, instead of investing in your future during a throwaway season, sounds so absurdly foolish.
Also if what he said is true, why did they trade Leo?
Makes no sense.
What REALLY makes no sense is that Mara was this involved with the decision. This reinforces the meddling narrative and brings into question of how much are Schoen's hands tied by our meddling owner with a ten year track record of futility. I think Jerry Jones was more fortunate with his son than Wellington was with his.
Quote from: jimc on March 28, 2024, 07:43:34 AMNo sense playing the game if you're not playing to win. If you are going to give up, at what point should you tell the players that you are giving up? 2-6 after 8 games?
Trading away a player you're almost certainly not going to sign in the middle of a lost season, so that you can acquire draft capital in a talent-loaded draft and improve your franchise for the longer term is not "giving up." It's doing what is best for your franchise. You can't only live in the moment and care about the very short run when you're running an organization with lofty longer term goals. That's what they clearly did here. I don't buy that they were planning on putting in a big effort towards signing him. Maybe Mara was hoping they would, but I don't buy that Schoen felt that way.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 28, 2024, 03:57:11 PMTrading away a player you're almost certainly not going to sign in the middle of a lost season, so that you can acquire draft capital in a talent-loaded draft and improve your franchise for the longer term is not "giving up." It's doing what is best for your franchise. You can't only live in the moment and care about the very short run when you're running an organization with lofty longer term goals. That's what they clearly did here. I don't buy that they were planning on putting in a big effort towards signing him. Maybe Mara was hoping they would, but I don't buy that Schoen felt that way.
I think not trying to win because you THINK you will have some better position in the draft that's many months away is sending the wrong message to the team. You are asking these guys to put their health on the line and not try to not win? Silly. There are no guarantees that your better draft position will get you an impact player. I'd still like to know at what point in the season do you decide to tell your players you are going to throw in the towel?
Quote from: jimc on March 28, 2024, 05:42:26 PMI think not trying to win because you THINK you will have some better position in the draft that's many months away is sending the wrong message to the team. You are asking these guys to put their health on the line and not try to not win? Silly. There are no guarantees that your better draft position will get you an impact player. I'd still like to know at what point in the season do you decide to tell your players you are going to throw in the towel?
Having a macro vision about where you're trying to go as an organization you call "silly", but I call it responsible stewardship of an NFL franchise. Simply put, if you're not going to sign a player (or make a serious effort to) in the upcoming offseason, it behooves you to try to get what you can for the player prior to the trade deadline, rather than let him walk away for nothing.
The Giants were 2-6 at the deadline. They probably weren't going to sign Barkley. They definitely weren't going to tag him, and they probably weren't going to sign him. Their $40mm a year starting QB was done for the season. The season was clearly over, insofar as them having any chance of contending or even realistically squeaking into the playoffs as a bottom seed and getting destroyed in the first round. That was the situation they were in.
Nobody said anything about "quitting" other than you. You still field a roster and expect the players you put on the field to give their absolute best and try to win. But you don't sit on impending UFAs you don't seriously intend to sign or tag, when you can get a quality asset for them. You can call that "quitting" if you want to, but I call it being responsible. The team was 2-6 and playing with a backup QB. Did you seriously regard them as having a chance of making a run in the NFC playoffs in January?
This is a loaded draft. Are you telling me you wouldn't have rather had an extra second or third round type pick in this draft for Barkley, considering we didn't make any real effort to sign him (and didn't tag him)? Why was that smart? What exactly did that do for the franchise?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 28, 2024, 06:01:04 PMHaving a macro vision about where you're trying to go as an organization you call "silly", but I call it responsible stewardship of an NFL franchise. Simply put, if you're not going to sign a player (or make a serious effort to) in the upcoming offseason, it behooves you to try to get what you can for the player prior to the trade deadline, rather than let him walk away for nothing.
The Giants were 2-6 at the deadline. They probably weren't going to sign Barkley. They definitely weren't going to tag him, and they probably weren't going to sign him. Their $40mm a year starting QB was done for the season. The season was clearly over, insofar as them having any chance of contending or even realistically squeaking into the playoffs as a bottom seed and getting destroyed in the first round. That was the situation they were in.
Nobody said anything about "quitting" other than you. You still field a roster and expect the players you put on the field to give their absolute best and try to win. But you don't sit on impending UFAs you don't seriously intend to sign or tag, when you can get a quality asset for them. You can call that "quitting" if you want to, but I call it being responsible. The team was 2-6 and playing with a backup QB. Did you seriously regard them as having a chance of making a run in the NFC playoffs in January?
This is a loaded draft. Are you telling me you wouldn't have rather had an extra second or third round type pick in this draft for Barkley, considering we didn't make any real effort to sign him (and didn't tag him)? Why was that smart? What exactly did that do for the franchise?
I believe they wanted to sign Barkley, but at their price. That is responsible stewardship. I think they were surprised that they couldn't.
I don't believe at 2-6 we were done. I don't know what would have gotten us into the playoffs, but you keep playing and trying until you can't. You owe it to your players and to all the other teams.
If you are not trying to win then the only thing you're doing is QUITTING.
Look, you have your opinion and I have mine. Better to say that we agree to disagree on this point. No harm no foul.
Quote from: jimc on March 28, 2024, 06:45:36 PMI believe they wanted to sign Barkley, but at their price. That is responsible stewardship. I think they were surprised that they couldn't.
I don't believe at 2-6 we were done. I don't know what would have gotten us into the playoffs, but you keep playing and trying until you can't. You owe it to your players and to all the other teams.
If you are not trying to win then the only thing you're doing is QUITTING.
Look, you have your opinion and I have mine. Better to say that we agree to disagree on this point. No harm no foul.
Fair enough. Happy to leave it there. I respect your point of view.
Quote from: jimc on March 28, 2024, 06:45:36 PMI believe they wanted to sign Barkley, but at their price. That is responsible stewardship. I think they were surprised that they couldn't.
I don't believe at 2-6 we were done. I don't know what would have gotten us into the playoffs, but you keep playing and trying until you can't. You owe it to your players and to all the other teams.
If you are not trying to win then the only thing you're doing is QUITTING.
Look, you have your opinion and I have mine. Better to say that we agree to disagree on this point. No harm no foul.
Agree with this 100% and will add a few more points.
-Viewing the team in such a "macro" way feels a lot more like fantasy football/Madden type of thinking than actually running an NFL organization. At 2-6, following a season in which the team had won a playoff game, is 100% not the time to trade away literally your only offensive weapon and the face of the franchise. Doing so would have been a disaster- leading to a higher draft pick? Sure. Disastrous in every other way? Yep.
-The fans that pay for tickets and spend all that money to go to games deserve a franchise that is trying to win
-Comparing the Giants throwing in the towel with NINE games left in the season to the Eagles tanking in the final game of the season for draft position is apples and oranges and intellectually dishonest.
-It seems obvious that the Giants were hoping the RB market this year would be similar to what it looked like when the bottom fell out the previous year. They would have definitely signed Barkley back if that was the case. But it wasn't.... In fact, DaveBrown and many others on this board thought the same thing and were proven 100% incorrect. In their eyes we had a broken down RB about to hit a terrible RB market and so it would be smart to let him hit free agency and then try to sign him to a team friendly deal. That turned out to be wrong. Ob la di Ob la da. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.
-Guess what? After all this chatter on this board over the last few years it actually looks like Barkley was the smartest one of all of us. Got a tag for a good amount of $$ and then converted that to a deal that will set him up for the rest of his life- and in the process goes to a hometown team with actual offensive players and an OL around him, and to top it off he gets to stick it to all the fans who have weirdly turned on him.
It will be interesting to see how he does next year, to say the least. If he stays healthy, IMO- look out. Top 3 RB for sure.