Big Blue Huddle

I will say that if I were the GM, I suspect I would grab a new quarterback if available (without having to pay a premium in a trade).  I think @AZGiantFan made a compelling point about the odds of success when drafting a QB.  That would give me pause.  Ultimately, it would come down to the injury issues (a healthy season doesn't erase all those concerns, and that cheaper contract.  Those are two very compelling reasons in my mind.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 10:37:33 AMYour conclusion about Engram may well-indeed be correct, but it's not supported by the 10-yard split metric and I think its pretty clear.

Since you put so much effort into trying to prove me wrong, I guess I should acknowledge your efforts.  Yes, it does take some digging to see how the 10-yard split indicates a lack of acceleration compared to his 40 times; you are correct. A look at the number with no other work being done wouldn't jump out at you in terms of there being a problem.   Congratulations
 

Quote from: T200 on Today at 10:33:27 AMI don't recall a single fan complaining about Engram's speed when he was here. It was his hands.

Tim,

When the Giants drafted Engram in round one, Reese talked about how he was going to be nearly impossible to cover with that 4.42 speed.  Yet, if you look at NFL's Next Gen stats, while Engram is the fastest (or top 3), his separation yardage puts him around 10th among NFL TEs. 

That was my issue. Engram was always undersized, and his hands were suspect, but we were sold on the idea that LBs and Safeties (who usually cover TEs) would never stand a chance against him (because of that 4.42 speed).

Here is a link to Next Gen Stats if you are interested.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving/2021/REG/all#average-separation

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 10:25:09 AMYes, I guess it would place him 4th... by .01 seconds:

You are dealing with small numbers at 10 yards so even 0.1 is significant.  I hope you appreciate that while Egram's 10 yard split wasn't "bad" by RAS standards, what it is is slower than what one would expect from a 4.42 40 and shows Engram's acceleration wasn't that good, which is why he hasn't played like one would expect a TE with a 4.42 40 to play

No doubt the Giants added talent to their ST unit.  I have never been that impressed with Thomas McGaughey as a special teams coordinator.  I don't think he was bad, but he seemed to be unimpressive.  In terms of a replacement, I am not sure if the Giants ST Coordinator or the Assistant Coordinator has the better resume.




Michael Ghobrial, who spent the previous three seasons as an assistant on the Jets' staff, has been hired as the Giants' new coordinator.

Ghobrial, who will turn 36 on Feb. 9, was a special teams coordinator on the collegiate level for five seasons before joining the Jets. He replaces Thomas McGaughey, who was dismissed on Jan. 8 after six seasons as the Giants' coordinator.

With the Jets, Ghobrial coached under coordinator Brant Boyer and fellow assistant Leon Washington as the team fielded one of the NFL's best special teams units.

In 2023, the Jets' kickoff coverage led the league by allowing an average of just 15.3 yards a return. Their opponents' 40.4-yard net punting average ranked seventh in the NFL. Kicker Greg Zuerlein made 35 of 38 field goal attempts, including five-of-six from 50+ yards, a .921 percentage, and scored 120 pounds. Rookie Xavier Gipson was second in the league with a 23.2-yard kickoff return average and tied for 12th with a 9.7-yard punt return average, including a game-winning 65-yard touchdown in the season opener vs. Buffalo. Ashtyn Davis was among the league leaders with 12 special teams tackles (nine solo) and forced and recovered a fumble.

The previous season, special teams captain Justin Hardee was selected to his first Pro Bowl after posting a career-high 14 tackles. He became just the sixth Jets special teamer to be selected to the Pro Bowl since 1970 and the only core special teamer. Two of the six were chosen during Ghobrial's tenure. Zuerlein kicked three of the four longest field goals in franchise history and became one of four Jets to convert multiple field goals of 55+ yards as a Jet.

In 2021, the Jets were the only team in the league to finish in the top five in both kickoff and punt return average that season. Wide receiver/return specialist Braxton Berrios was selected as an All-Pro after he led the NFL in kickoff return average and finished second in punt return average.

Before joining the Jets, Ghobrial served as the special teams coordinator at Washington State (2020), Hawai'i (2018-19) and Tarleton State (2016-17). Following his first season at Tarleton State, he spent training camp with the Detroit Lions as part of the Bill Walsh Diversity Coaching Fellowship.

Ghobrial began his coaching career at his alma mater, UCLA, first as an undergrad assistant (2009-10), then as a quality control coach (2011), and finally as a graduate assistant (2012-13). Following his time with the Bruins, he coached at Syracuse (2014) and Colorado Mesa (2015), serving as the team's co-special teams coordinator in addition to coaching the defensive line and outside linebackers.

Ghobrial played defensive end for two seasons at UCLA, where he earned his bachelor's degree in history and a master's degree in social science and comparative education.


Cameron Achord

Personal information
Born:    February 4, 1987 (age 37)
Brookhaven, Mississippi, U.S.

Career information
High school:    Brookhaven Academy
College:    Belhaven
Position:    Special teams coordinator

Career history
As a coach:
Southern Miss (2010–2011)
Special teams graduate assistant
Southern Miss (2012)
Offensive graduate assistant
Southwest Mississippi CC (2013–2016)
Special teams coordinator, quarterbacks coach, running backs coach & tight ends coach
Southwest Mississippi CC (2017)
Offensive coordinator, special teams coordinator, quarterbacks coach, running backs coach & tight ends coach
New England Patriots (2018–2019)
Assistant special teams coach
New England Patriots (2020–2023)
Special teams coordinator
Career highlights and awards
Super Bowl champion (LIII)



Stephen Thomas, whose 16 years of coaching experience include five in the NFL, is in his first season as a Giants' assistant special teams coach.

Thomas spent the previous four seasons as the Detroit Lions' defensive quality control coach.

He joined the Lions in 2019 after spending six of the previous seven seasons (2012-14, 2016-18) at Princeton University, including the last two as the Tigers' special teams coordinator/inside linebackers coach.

In his final season at Princeton in 2018, Thomas coached a pair of first-team All-Ivy League linebackers (Mark Fossati and Tom Johnson). The Tigers' defense was fourth in the nation in points allowed and seventh in rushing defense. Thomas was Princeton's inside linebackers coach in 2016, when the Tigers led the league in scoring, total and rushing defense.

In-between his two stints at Princeton, Thomas was the Philadelphia Eagles' defensive quality control coach in 2015.

Prior to his initial tenure at Princeton, Thomas was a graduate assistant who worked with the offensive line at Southern Mississippi in 2011, and the linebackers (2010) and secondary (2009) at Delaware. He began his coaching career at Cortland State, where he mentored the cornerbacks in 2007 and the entire secondary the following season.

A native of Brooklyn, Thomas played defensive back and earned a degree in chemical and biological engineering at University at Buffalo. He also earned a master's degree in sport Mangement from Cortland.

Thomas and his wife, Erin, have a son, Justin, and a daughter, Olivia.

THOMAS AT A GLANCE

2007 Cortland State University cornerbacks

2008 Cortland State University defensive backs

2009 University of Delaware graduate assistant/secondary

2010 University of Delaware graduate assistant/linebackers

2011 University of Southern Mississippi graduate assistant/offensive line

2012-14 Princeton University inside linebackers

2015 Philadelphia Eagles defensive quality control

2016 Princeton University inside linebackers

2017-18 Princeton University special teams/inside linebackers

2019-22 Detroit Lions defensive quality control

2023 New York Giants assistant special teams

Quote from: Philosophers on Today at 10:11:25 AMGiven how bad they were, Giants need real production from say 4 draft picks for a) this draft to be considered very successful and b) to help get out of the sub 0.500 doldrums.

Nabers - easy pick
Nubin - likely pick
Phillips - hopeful pick
Johnson - dark horse pick
Tracy - should given poor RB pool on team

4 out of 6 would be an impressive batting average even for the best GMs

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 10:02:35 AMEngram's 10-yard split was strong:


That 10-yard split is within tenths of a second of Odunze and Nabers. Engram's numbers (PFF and counting stats) have been much better since he transitioned to Jacksonville and had Trevor Lawrence throwing him the ball.

Have you considered that Engram's 4.42 40 time was a record at the time he ran it, yet his 1.56 split would put him 4th in just this year's combine with just a handful of TEs and none of them coming close to Engram's 4.42?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-r-niHtaYTpDE3ydHJXyV4QfWQ2HZWnRXUVbaMTK3C0/edit#gid=1749729294

Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 09:37:37 AM@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL

Quarterback support is a three-legged stool.  Those legs consist of coaching/scheme, pass protection, and receiving targets.   What exactly do we learn focusing exclusively on a single leg of the stool? 

I am going to add one thing.  I suspect we should also be looking at 10-yard splits as they will reflect a receiver's suddenness/acceleration, which is as important if not more important than their long speed. 

Take Evan Engram.  He had an impressive 40 time, but he wasn't that sudden and it took him time to reach top speed.  As a result, the defense didn't really struggle to cover him as much as his 40 times would suggest.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 09:13:17 AMI didn't say they don't. A backup or any backup should not look significantly better than your 40 million dollar qb regardless of the circumstances and not one but several backup Qbs did this past season.

The part in bold is where we see things differently.  I don't do absolutes like "regardless of circumstances". I always factor in circumstances when I evaluate anything in football.  Evaluating without considering circumstances is akin to taking a quote out of context, in my opinion.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 07, 2024, 08:04:10 PMIt is somewhat subjective who the five best receivers are, but I'll take a crack at it.

For "fast" I will use less than 4.45 on the 40. I think that's a fair cutoff for this position.


Is each of the below players fast?

Tyreek Hill (4.29): Yes
Cee Dee Lamb (4.5): No
Amon-Ra St. Brown (4.61): No
Ja'Marr Chase (4.38): Yes
AJ Brown (4.49): No

2 yes, 3 no.

Justin Jefferson 4.43
 Davante Adams 4.56
 Stefon Diggs 4.46
 Cooper Kupp 4.62
 Deebo Samuel 4.48

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 07, 2024, 06:44:45 PMI'm not loving that news if I'm Tommy D.

He lit it up in the CFL.  He's a bit short at 6' 1", but I think Tommy Cutlets has some serious competition for QB 3.  The Giants claimed Rourke on waivers.   The Pats got him by claiming him on waivers (when the Jags waived him), and they beat out the Texans, who also put a claim in on him.  I think there could be something more than just a camp body in him.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 07:41:01 PMIs there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you? 

I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.

Why did you ignore the 7th receiving targets versus the 32nd receiving targets?  Do you think that receivers don't improve a QBs production?  If not, why do you think WRs make so much money?

As to your point, 32nd is unlimited bad.  We have clear stats that show the protection was significantly worse in terms of percent of pressure and time to pressure under Jones, and even with the improvements after Jones, they were still last.  Even adding a healthy Andrew Thomas and Pugh off his coach didn't move the Giants off 32nd in pass protection.

Quote from: Trench on May 07, 2024, 11:26:06 PMShort answer is - no

So why do NFL teams spend so much money on receivers and offensive linemen if things like pass protection and receiving targets don't make a difference?

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 07:49:56 AMThis is the most likely scenario that supports Jones remaining in place. He needs to do just enough to keep drafting a blue chip replacement out of reach leaving the Giants' only other option being replacing him with a long in the tooth has been/never was retread. I suppose the Giants could capture lightning in a bottle with a high risk draft pick in the mid to late first round.

The Giants had that high-risk option with the 3 QBs they passed on in this draft.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 06:07:22 PMJones 6 Games
Att 160
Cmpl% 68
Yards 909
Tds 2
Int 6
Yards per attempt 5.7
Yards per catch 8.4
10+ yards 33
20+ yards 9
30+ yards 1


Lock 2 Games
Att 76
Cmpl % 63.4
Yards 543
Tds 3
INT 3
Yards per attempt 7.1
Yards per catch 11.3
10+ yards 19
20+ yards 10
30+ yards 3

If Lock plays in 6 instead of 2 he'd have 706 more yards, and 7 more Tds. He would have doubled Jones 10+ yard catches, tripled his 20+ yard catches and have 8 more 30+ yard catches.

One throws down field the other does not.

I am curious: do you think the fact that Jones was working behind the worst pass protection in the league and throwing to the worst receivers (per PFF) might have skewed last year's numbers when you compare that to Lock having the 28th pass protection, but throwing the 7th best receiver group in the league?