Some players are special in terms of their ability to make things happen. The Giants have two such players in Hyatt and Simmons. Yet here were their snap counts from last night:
Hyatt 16 32%
Simmons 25 30%
i get that guys need to earn their stripes. but hyatt is easily the most dynamic receiver we have. you have to at least try to get him involved. maybe they felt his strengths werent a good matchup against SF, but...who was? no one did well last night.
simmons i havent seen enough of, and he was a late signing. maybe he is still picking up the playbook. i think we'll see him settle in soon enough. also with mcfadden having a standout game, it takes away snaps from simmons.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 22, 2023, 08:13:21 AMSome players are special in terms of their ability to make things happen. The Giants have two such players in Hyatt and Simmons. Yet here were their snap counts from last night:
Hyatt 16 32%
Simmons 25 30%
I agree on both ....the speed on both is crazy and you can see on the screen
Hyatt sitting for most of the game is criminal
Simmons needs more snaps ..... his sideline to sideline effort and speed is great
Simmons is not special; bad teams don't trade young 'special' players for a ham sandwich. He's not going to magically become something hes never been by simply changing his helmet logo. I like Hyatt, but he's a 3rd round pick...we don't know what he is/will be.
C Mack, Debo Samuel and Nick Bosa are special, Hyatt and Simmons are not; although, there's still plenty of time for the former to become special. The Giants problem continues to stem from the lack of dynamic players.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 08:30:23 AMSimmons is not special; bad teams don't trade young 'special' players for a ham sandwich. He's not going to magically become something hes never been by simply changing his helmet logo. I like Hyatt, but he's a 3rd round pick...we don't know what he is/will be.
C Mack, Debo Samuel and Nick Bosa are special, Hyatt and Simmons are not; although, there's still plenty of time for the former to become special. The Giants problem continues to stem from the lack of dynamic players.
Simmons wasn't special to the Cards.
Look at our defensive roster. Who are the most talented players on defense? Simmons is easily top 5, if not top 3. So, in relation to this Giants defense, he's special. He's the most versatile defender we have right now. They need to have him on the field.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 08:30:23 AMSimmons is not special; bad teams don't trade young 'special' players for a ham sandwich. He's not going to magically become something hes never been by simply changing his helmet logo. I like Hyatt, but he's a 3rd round pick...we don't know what he is/will be.
C Mack, Debo Samuel and Nick Bosa are special, Hyatt and Simmons are not; although, there's still plenty of time for the former to become special. The Giants problem continues to stem from the lack of dynamic players.
If you watch his tape, you see him making special plays. The issue is one of inconsistency, not a lack of ability to make plays.
Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 08:33:22 AMSimmons wasn't special to the Cards.
Look at our defensive roster. Who are the most talented players on defense? Simmons is easily top 5, if not top 3. So, in relation to this Giants defense, he's special. He's the most versatile defender we have right now. They need to have him on the field.
Tim,
That's like saying Bridea is special because he's the Giants 2d best rb. The Giants don't play against each other; so, I humbly suggest players should be compared against their aggregate contemporaries, not their relative standing on their team. In short, I don't think a single DC is planning to defend against Simmons, which negates the 'special' qualifier.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 08:48:09 AMTim,
That's like saying Bridea is special because he's the Giants 2d best rb. The Giants don't play against each other; so, I humbly suggest players should be compared against their aggregate contemporaries, not their relative standing on their team. In short, I don't think a single DC is gaming planning to defend against Simmons, which negates the 'special' qualifier.
You're focused on a label, which you yourself introduced into the conversation to diminish what Simmons can do for this defense. No one said he was special. You injected that he wasn't. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. It doesn't matter if another team doesn't game plan specifically for him.
What matters is whether he can make plays when he's on the field for the Giants. Does he?
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 08:30:23 AMSimmons is not special; bad teams don't trade young 'special' players for a ham sandwich. He's not going to magically become something hes never been by simply changing his helmet logo. I like Hyatt, but he's a 3rd round pick...we don't know what he is/will be.
C Mack, Debo Samuel and Nick Bosa are special, Hyatt and Simmons are not; although, there's still plenty of time for the former to become special. The Giants problem continues to stem from the lack of dynamic players.
I dont think anyone is saying he is special or an elite player
But its no denying that AZ is/was in turmoil
A lot of Simmons downfall is on himself but could also be a fact that AZ just wasnt using him right
Players have gotten released on a team to only be players/starters on others ... So I wouldnt say a 7th round pick is just a ham sandwich
All that being said I just think Simmons in the right system can be at least a factor.... I thought Winks system would be that... but the defense has been the weakness of the team so far
Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 08:53:48 AMYou're focused on a label, which you yourself introduced into the conversation to diminish what Simmons can do for this defense. No one said he was special. You injected that he wasn't. It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. It doesn't matter if another team doesn't game plan specifically for him.
What matters is whether he can make plays when he's on the field for the Giants. Does he?
That's fair, Tim; I should swap special with 'playmaker.' Simmons, by any definition, is not a playmaker. He's vastly overrated by Giant fans based on his prior draft status. I saw the same thing with J Peppers. I'm not even sure I would classify Simmons as 'good', let alone a playmaker. If we're counting on him to be a significant difference-maker, we're in real trouble.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 22, 2023, 08:13:21 AMSome players are special in terms of their ability to make things happen. The Giants have two such players in Hyatt and Simmons. Yet here were their snap counts from last night:
Hyatt 16 32%
Simmons 25 30%
They also need to give Hyatt other routes to run so he can be a larger part of this Offense. If they limit him to Go Routes and Posts, it reduces his playing time. Watch the All 22 when it's available. The Niners locked down the deep passes because there was no running game. The pass rush that ensued as a result gave Jones no time to wait for any deep pass to get open.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 08:58:29 AMThat's fair, Tim; I should swap special with 'playmaker.' Simmons, by any definition, is not a playmaker. He's vastly overrated by Giant fans based on his prior draft status. I saw the same thing with J Peppers. I'm not even sure I would classify Simmons as 'good', let alone a playmaker. If we're counting on him to be a significant difference-maker, we're in real trouble.
Then why have any of them take the field if we aren't counting on them to make plays? I don't get it :-??
You talk about the lack of talent and then you say we shouldn't expect a talented player like him to make a difference. I get that you aren't big on him and I respect that. I think he can be a difference maker, more so than what we're seeing from Thibs. As the season goes on, I hope to see more impact from Simmons.
With Hyatt I expect he'll be more involved as the season moves along. We're only three games in and this game was on a short week.
Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 09:04:20 AMThen why have any of them take the field if we aren't counting on them to make plays? I don't get it :-??
Isn't that the point? From his snap count, the Giants are keeping him on the sideline. So, clearly, they don't view him as a 'playmaker' either. What I don't understand is why we think Simmons is a playmaker, when his prior and current team clearly don't. He was brought in to be a situational player...he's fulfilling that role. There was a good reason we got him for a 7th round pick.
Do we think playing Simmons more would improve our defense? I do not; fundamentally, our biggest problems are stopping the run and generating pressure. Simmons is certainly not going to help with the former and has limited success with the latter over 4 seasons. He's not going to make the difference between winning and loosing.
Quote from: Ed Vette on September 22, 2023, 08:58:57 AMThey also need to give Hyatt other routes to run so he can be a larger part of this Offense. If they limit him to Go Routes and Posts, it reduces his playing time. Watch the All 22 when it's available. The Niners locked down the deep passes because there was no running game. The pass rush that ensued as a result gave Jones no time to wait for any deep pass to get open.
Yes , I see these catches that Paris was getting.... and was thinking if that was Hyatt he would def have more YAC
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 09:28:07 AMIsn't that the point? From his snap count, the Giants are keeping him on the sideline. So, clearly, they don't view him as a 'playmaker' either. What I don't understand is why we think Simmons is a playmaker, when his prior and current team clearly don't. He was brought in to be a situational player...he's fulfilling that role. There was a good reason we got him for a 7th round pick. You
They literally traded for him right before the season started, new playbook, no training camp... what like 3 snaps in preseason ?
We cant say that about Simmons without looking at players like Hyatt and Wandale... its a break in period obviously
Some of just feel he should be broken in even more
And we cant base everything off his old team
Dolphins turned flowers into a decent Guard... after being an atrocious Tackle with the Giants
Sometimes the grass is actually greener
I am not sure we have consistent playmakers outside Barkley (I exclude QBs in that phrase.)
Quote from: JT39 on September 22, 2023, 09:37:00 AMI am not sure we have consistent playmakers outside Barkley (I exclude QBs in that phrase.)
Simmons showed, with the Cards, that he can make plays (albeit he has been inconsistent). Hyatt has also shown to be a playmaker. It's hard to make plays from the bench.
Quote from: killarich on September 22, 2023, 09:36:32 AMThey literally traded for him right before the season started, new playbook, no training camp... what like 3 snaps in preseason ?
We cant say that about Simmons without looking at players like Hyatt and Wandale... its a break in period obviously
Some of just feel he should be broken in even more
And we cant base everything off his old team
Dolphins turned flowers into a decent Guard... after being an atrocious Tackle with the Giants
Sometimes the grass is actually greener
Your example proves my point...Flowers was not a descent Guard. He was the exact same player he was in NY, just moved to a new position to attempt to hide his warts. Still, he struggled and lasted in Mia for a single season. Decent guards don't play for 5 teams and out of football in 7 years. At best, he was a JAG...same as he was in NY. I suspect Simmons will follow the same trajectory, just like 99% of veterans entering their 5th year.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 09:28:07 AMIsn't that the point? From his snap count, the Giants are keeping him on the sideline. So, clearly, they don't view him as a 'playmaker' either. What I don't understand is why we think Simmons is a playmaker, when his prior and current team clearly don't. He was brought in to be a situational player...he's fulfilling that role. There was a good reason we got him for a 7th round pick.
Do we think playing Simmons more would improve our defense? I do not; fundamentally, our biggest problems are stopping the run and generating pressure. Simmons is certainly not going to help with the former and has limited success with the latter over 4 seasons. He's not going to make the difference between winning and loosing.
I agree that they are limiting his snaps, obviously. But I don't think we can make the correlation that they don't think he isn't a playmaker.
On the difference between winning and losing, I don't think the Giants defense is one player away. They need all the help they can get. They brought him... they need to use him.
Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 09:46:06 AMI agree that they are limiting his snaps, obviously. But I don't think we can make the correlation that they don't think he isn't a playmaker.
On the difference between winning and losing, I don't think the Giants defense is one player away. They need all the help they can get. They brought him... they need to use him.
exactly :ok:
The Giants played an elite defense. They played hard, but just are not good enough to stay with a team like SF. We can better judge them against middling teams like the Seahawks, Commanders, and Jets.
Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 09:46:06 AMI agree that they are limiting his snaps, obviously. But I don't think we can make the correlation that they don't think he isn't a playmaker.
On the difference between winning and losing, I don't think the Giants defense is one player away. They need all the help they can get. They brought him... they need to use him.
I'm confused, Tim. You think the Giants would elect to keep a playmaker on the bench? Can I ask why?
Quote from: B1GBLUE on September 22, 2023, 08:17:00 AMi get that guys need to earn their stripes. but hyatt is easily the most dynamic receiver we have. you have to at least try to get him involved. maybe they felt his strengths werent a good matchup against SF, but...who was? no one did well last night.
simmons i havent seen enough of, and he was a late signing. maybe he is still picking up the playbook. i think we'll see him settle in soon enough. also with mcfadden having a standout game, it takes away snaps from simmons.
the coaches failed us on offense.....sometimes if it walks and talks like a duck, it is indeed a duck
suprise!
Quote from: BluesCruz on September 22, 2023, 09:53:20 AMthe coaches failed us on offense.....sometimes if it walks and talks like a duck, it is indeed a duck
suprise!
Or maybe the talent isn't what you think it is that they have to work with.
Quote from: T200 on September 22, 2023, 09:46:06 AMI agree that they are limiting his snaps, obviously. But I don't think we can make the correlation that they don't think he isn't a playmaker.
On the difference between winning and losing, I don't think the Giants defense is one player away. They need all the help they can get. They brought him... they need to use him.
This is my issue, when they traded for him they talked a big games about their positionless defense, all the things he has done or can do, and how well he fit's everything. If that is the case, we're 1-2, he has a few games in now and he is a vet not a rookie, get him tf on the field.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 09:49:44 AMI'm confused, Tim. You think the Giants would elect to keep a playmaker on the bench? Can I ask why?
Yes. I don't have the answers as to why. Offensively, same thing with Hyatt. Rich posted the snap counts for both Simmons and Hyatt.
Your stance is that Simmons isn't a playmaker or difference maker, so he shouldn't really be counted on to do much, especially since Arizona gave him away for peanuts. I take it that you trust the coaching staff to make the right decisions on player involvement and who should be on the field.
I trust them as well, but I also don't agree with all of their decisions. Simmons is fresh on the team. As I said earlier, I hope (expect) him to be more of a factor as the season goes on.
Hyatt most definitely should be playing more.
Simmons I'm a bit more torn on. I don't ever see Simmons as being an every-down LB or even a 75% snap guy. He has many holes in his game, and those holes should be avoided by playing him in the right situations. While 30% might be too low for him, I think he'd be a liability if out there the majority of the game. I'd rather get 5 big plays from him in limited snaps vs. 5 big plays and 5 big misses in a higher snap count.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on September 22, 2023, 10:10:06 AMHyatt most definitely should be playing more.
Simmons I'm a bit more torn on. I don't ever see Simmons as being an every-down LB or even a 75% snap guy. He has many holes in his game, and those holes should be avoided by playing him in the right situations. While 30% might be too low for him, I think he'd be a liability if out there the majority of the game. I'd rather get 5 big plays from him in limited snaps vs. 5 big plays and 5 big misses in a higher snap count.
I agree that Simmons has holes in his game. Although, having watched the Giants' defense the first 3 weeks, I am not sure that's a good reason to keep him on the bench as there appear to be plenty of players will holes in their game. At least Simmons is capable of making plays that impact the game.
I dont see how we can just give up on Simmons being a possible playmaker for us
If you think Flowers is a bad example
How about BJ Hill and Devon Kennard ?
Both were similar to Simmons in which they were just ehh starters or shown flashes ...go to new teams and look good ...
Difference is Simmons was obviously in a bad situation and misused
Its 3 games into the season ... I dont understand the negativity towards at least giving him a shot at a higher playcount
Here is a nice sample of the types of plays Simmons is capable of
Quote from: killarich on September 22, 2023, 10:27:02 AMI dont see how we can just give up on Simmons being a possible playmaker for us
If you think Flowers is a bad example
How about BJ Hill and Devon Kennard ?
Both were similar to Simmons in which they were just ehh starters or shown flashes ...go to new teams and look good ...
Difference is Simmons was obviously in a bad situation and misused
Its 3 games into the season ... I dont understand the negativity towards at least giving him a shot at a higher playcount
BJ Hill and Kennard evolved into playmakers/difference-makers? That's news to me...
Both were good players while they were here and remained good players after they left. I don't know if you recall, but the majority of this board was peeved when the Giants traded Hill for a failed 1st round center, who also failed to magically become better with a team change. Like most transactions under DG tenure, it was a terrible trade.
I highly suspect Simmons will continue to be the same player he was in Az; just like 99% of all players entering their 4th seasons. He'll flash here and there, but I would not count on him to significantly alter our aggregate defense. He's doesn't have those skillsets; again, there's a reason a team desperate for young talent let him walk. Equally, there's a reason a team was only willing to part with a 7th round pick to secure his services; that pick is completely inconsequential as >80% of 7th round picks are out of the league in less than 2-years.
The Giants acquired him to be a situational role player, not the cornerstone of our def. I don't object to him playing more, I just don't believe it will make a materiel difference. Finally, his size makes him a difficult player to fill a specific position. So, who's playing time would you curtail to insert Simmons?
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 08:30:23 AMSimmons is not special; bad teams don't trade young 'special' players for a ham sandwich. He's not going to magically become something hes never been by simply changing his helmet logo. I like Hyatt, but he's a 3rd round pick...we don't know what he is/will be.
C Mack, Debo Samuel and Nick Bosa are special, Hyatt and Simmons are not; although, there's still plenty of time for the former to become special. The Giants problem continues to stem from the lack of dynamic players.
It's a facts versus circumstances debate. Sometimes a player simply is not producing results because of circumstances. You can't draw conclusions just because of results. A different environment, different scheme, different way a player is communicated to, may sometimes be the ingredients to produce a different result.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 22, 2023, 03:06:13 PMBJ Hill and Kennard evolved into playmakers/difference-makers? That's news to me...
Both were good players while they were here and remained good players after they left. I don't know if you recall, but the majority of this board was peeved when the Giants traded Hill for a failed 1st round center, who also failed to magically become better with a team change. Like most transactions under DG tenure, it was a terrible trade.
I highly suspect Simmons will continue to be the same player he was in Az; just like 99% of all players entering their 4th seasons. He'll flash here and there, but I would not count on him to significantly alter our aggregate defense. He's doesn't have those skillsets; again, there's a reason a team desperate for young talent let him walk. Equally, there's a reason a team was only willing to part with a 7th round pick to secure his services; that pick is completely inconsequential as >80% of 7th round picks are out of the league in less than 2-years.
The Giants acquired him to be a situational role player, not the cornerstone of our def. I don't object to him playing more, I just don't believe it will make a materiel difference. Finally, his size makes him a difficult player to fill a specific position. So, who's playing time would you curtail to insert Simmons?
Kennard became better after he left
And no one is asking Simmons to be elite... all im saying is give him a chance
Quote from: Philosophers on September 22, 2023, 03:18:54 PMIt's a facts versus circumstances debate. Sometimes a player simply is not producing results because of circumstances. You can't draw conclusions just because of results. A different environment, different scheme, different way a player is communicated to, may sometimes be the ingredients to produce a different result.
Geno Smith was a career journeyman ... suddenly in his 30's he had a pro bowl season .....
IDK why anyone is so quick to give up on someone like Simmons it makes absolutely zero sense
Like you said ... maybe a different scenery is needed
Quote from: killarich on September 22, 2023, 04:19:37 PMKennard became better after he left
And no one is asking Simmons to be elite... all im saying is give him a chance
No he didn't...he got more playing time playing on the NFLs worst def...that's not the same as getting better. His 16 games stats were remarkably the same. Besides, Det only won 8 games in the two years while he was there. Btw, if he improved so much, why did he only last 2 years in Det? They cut him before his contract expired. You're having a hard time finding a tangible example because they're rare...like less than 1% rare. Fans believe system and/or coaching changes can fundamentally alter a veteran player's trajectory, but that's incredibly rare in the modern NFL. Consider our Giants, in the last decade, what veteran player proved to be materially better after we signed and/or traded for them? I honestly can't think of a single example, but could be overlooking someone. Regardless, in the modern NFL, it's rare.
Again, no objections to Simmons playing more. Who do you pull to give him more playing time? That's lingering question I have.
Quote from: killarich on September 22, 2023, 04:21:06 PMGeno Smith was a career journeyman ... suddenly in his 30's he had a pro bowl season .....
IDK why anyone is so quick to give up on someone like Simmons it makes absolutely zero sense
Like you said ... maybe a different scenery is needed
I suggest you go back and look again. Geno only started 20 something games before the Jets pulled the plug. In subsequent starts after his 2d season, including his start with us, he played well. It takes at least two full seasons to know what you have at QB...he wasn't given that luxury. Besides, this is a massive fallacy; in short, you're focusing on one player to support your narrative, while simultaneously ignoring the literal thousands of examples that suggest such ascensions are rare.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 22, 2023, 08:13:21 AMSome players are special in terms of their ability to make things happen. The Giants have two such players in Hyatt and Simmons. Yet here were their snap counts from last night:
Hyatt 16 32%
Simmons 25 30%
I agree, but I do think it's possibly because they are still learning. Then again, just tell them where to go and let them loose.
With a bigger break than normal before our next game, we may see that change as well as others.