Big Blue Huddle

Benn busy at work so not sure if this was posted in here (or elsewhere).....

Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
21h
The #Giants have all of the sudden built out one of the fastest WR corps in the NFL
Malik Nabers 4.38
Darius Slayton 4.39
Jalin Hyatt 4.40
Wan'Dale Robinson 4.44
From an Xs&Os standpoint, having this level of speed on the field should force Ds to cover every blade of grass.

Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
21h
The Malik Nabers addition is going to make it difficult for defenses to shade coverage over the top of Jalin Hyatt like we saw at times in 2023.
Instead, we could be looking at a lot more rolled coverages toward Nabers & one-on-one opportunities for Hyatt to beat his man #Giants

Daboll when he came on board made a comment that we must be one of the slowest teams in the NFL. He emphasizes speed kind of like that Dolphins ball coach does.

THey have transformed team speed and Theo is pretty fast for a 6'6 255-260 pound TE too.

MacAdoo was itching to get Geno playing over Eli so anything can happen when you are not the regime that drafted said QB.

Apart from that, I think DJ would beat out Lock if they are on level playing ground.

LOL, at least Aaron Wellman is back. He was a low-key big loss to the S&C staff.

On another note, I like how our overall staff is shaping up with just two kind of unknowns in Bowen and Ghobriel TBD starting this year.

The offense especially seems to have every critical component in place now (at least in theory) from coaches to talent in the key areas for the QB to have the tools to sink or swim.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 06, 2024, 11:15:13 AMTYRONE TRACY JR., RB, NEW YORK GIANTS
The New York Giants made the (wise) decision to let Saquon Barkley walk in free agency after six years of production. The Giants are in a semi-rebuild, so throwing even more money at a running back who has struggled to stay healthy didn't make sense. Instead, the Giants signed Devin Singletary to a modest contract and didn't select a running back in the first four rounds of the 2024 NFL Draft. However, they added one of this class's most intriguing backs in former wide receiver Tyrone Tracy Jr.

Tracy started his career with the Iowa Hawkeyes, appearing in 38 games as a wide receiver. But after modest production, he transferred to Purdue and started five games at receiver (2022). Ahead of the 2023 season, Tracy transitioned to running back, which likely saved his career. In his first year playing the position, Tracy led the Big Ten in yards per carry (6.3) and scored eight rushing touchdowns.

While Tracy isn't ready to be a full-time running back (146 career carries in college), he is an incredible athlete who is a threat to score on any play. He posted a 9.78 RAS score, which ranks 42nd all-time (out of 1,903 running backs) after posting a 40-inch vertical jump at 209 pounds.

Only Singletary is ahead of him on the depth chart, so Tracy should find a role right away. He is the most explosive running back on the roster and could have a Tony Pollard-like impact on the Giants in Year 1.

https://www.the33rdteam.com/day-3-nfl-rookies-who-could-make-instant-impact/

I would agree with this. RBs tend to have the lowest learning and impact curve of all the positions. The hardest thing to learn is usually the pass blocking aspect. Even with that, rookie RBs are often utilized in play designs that require the RB less chance to stay in and pass block until they are better ready in this area.

I am really excited about this Tracy pick and like the pick a lot more than the Gray pick of last year. Although Gray with a better offensive line might be a bit more productive when he gets going downhill.

He will need to perform at a level that is commensurate with the better talent that is assembled around him.

Provided that the OL under Bracillo takes the expected and hopeful jump to league average or better in the advanced metrics like time to pressure and quality of pressure, and Nabers ends up being closer to OBJ and J'Marr Chase and Justin Jefferson rookie year than Rueben Randle, then DJ's production should not just slightly improve but drastically.

I hate placing numbers on this kind of thing because there are so many things that can happen in a season, but I'll play along.

His rookie year he threw for 24TDs and 12 INTs in 12 games.  I would fully expect something around that 2:1 per game ratio to justify continuing with him. So something in the area of 34TDs and 17INTs and 4000+ yards over a full season.

4000 yards by the way would put him right around the top 10 of last years QB rankings.

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-yard-leaders-2023-to-2024

For more context 34 TDs would have been top 2 last year.

Top 10 puts him around 25TDs

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-td-leaders-2023-to-2024


So asking for 34 as a barometer to keep him may be a bit extreme lol

25 TDs relative to last years top 10 is probably a fairer number.

Quote from: files58 on May 06, 2024, 10:20:19 AMYes Igor got his stick on the second goal, it happened very quickly, and Anderson should have stopped Panarin's eventual game winner. Carolina will make some adjustments within their structure. However they play one game, Pressure, and at a consistent, constant level. They will need to raise their level of play to beat this Ranger team. I don't know that they can. If they do, hats off to them. That's their DNA under Brind'A'Mor. Love that already in Game 1 they are frustrating Goetzel. He got chippy yesterday.  I'm watching all the series. This Ranger team can beat all 7 remaining teams, and can lose to the same. It's that close this year. Would love to see an Adamms Family train wreck between Fla-Bos. 

This team like the Knicks seem to have a special level of intangibles. Their cohesiveness and ability to perform in the clutch makes them really unique. Also if Shesterkin continues his post all star performance throughout the playoffs, I like their chances to win the whole thing.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 12:08:06 PMThe Simms and Eli example are now 25 and 40 years old; plus, Eli didn't take 6 years to mature. He was a SB MVP by year 3...it's an overused and poor example. 

Today, the game is fundamentally different and QB maturation reflects that reality.  Kids have access to professional camps from age 8 on, colleges are no longer running wishbones and student body left/right; today college offenses are as sophisticated as the NFL. College nutrition and strength program are also on par with NFL clubs. It no longer takes 3+ years for NFL QBs to emerge. Just look at every QB to enter the NFL in the past decade; you'll notice an obvious and fundamental trend. 

Matt , Year 4 for Eli I believe was his Super Bowl year. Prior to that, the teams offense was quite up and down despite having guys like Shockey, Toomer, Plaxico, Tiki (who was a better pass catcher than Barkley) etc. They got blanked by the Panthers in a playoff game even. In fact even the Super Bowl year the offense was inconsistent despite having a whole tier level of weapons better than DJ and an offensive line coached by Pat Flaherty that had Diehl, Seubert, Snee, O'Hara and MCKenzie.

 If we are being honest, that combination between OL coach, OL talent and receiving weapons is in another stratosphere compared to anything that DJ has ever had thus far in his career.

I think members here have dug their heels in at this point.

My point is simple , I think we can all agree that DJs support system when you combine the 3 items mentioned above has been absolute bottom barrel. This year in itself will be different because we all (or mostly) agree this will probably be the best combination of those 3 things in his career.

Let's see what he can do when he actually has the main things that most successful QBs in the NFL have. Like I said, in an ideal world I would have rather had Maye because I think the talent is top 5 QB special. But short of that, I still believe there is at least a possibility that DJ could be good with the support system he has around him now.

This year may finally and mercifully be the year we figure out if the greatest failure was DJ or the even greater failure was taking so long to get a half decent supporting cast around him.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:54:03 AMThe NFL is a for profit business. It's all about maxing out profits. That is not the case with education and teachers. So I respectfully disagree with this comparison.

To Mighty's point some think finding a special talent at a position like QB is harder than finding a 'good enough' coach to coach him.

So I think there is some truth in what everyone is asserting here.

The two biggest ingredients this offense was missing under the assumption that most agree Daboll/Kafka are half decent or better offensive coaches, was WR1 and OL coach.

I honestly don't think it's as much the talent on the OL as much as it is getting 5 players to play like one and actually being able to pick up even the simplest stunts and twists as a unit.

With that said between Bracillo and Nabers , I'm the most excited I've ever been to watch our offense in quite sometime. Nabers is coming in with the potential not just to be some middling WR1 but that separation ability he has is absolutely world class. He did it in the SEC and his size, speed change of direction combination is right there with the likes of a J'Marr Chase or a faster Brandon Aiyuk.

The ironic thing is there was quite a ground-swell brewing amongst the fanbase to nix both Simms and Eli because both of them took longer than expected to really flourish within the Giants offense. Part was maturation, part was getting talent around them. DJ is in a similar boat. I really don't see Dave Brown here. He is not beyond hope in my humblest of opinions, gentleman.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:38:19 AMThe best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.

Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?

Tangible vs the intangible.  Teachers are some of the most important people in the entire world yet look at their salaries lol

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.

I think this is a fascinating topic but even this is fairly nuanced. It depends on the situation. Some players are naturally motivated for greatness and need little motivation so from that standpoint coaching is lessened. However where coaching is always critical is scheme. A Garrett scheme in today's NFL is easily neutered no matter what talent you have on the field. It was a horrific scheme. We even see a guy like Engram do quite a bit better outside that Garrett scheme.

Here's another great recent example: Eagles last year were not diametrically different than the prior year talent wise. The biggest difference on that team is they lost a marquis OC and DC that were so highly esteemed in NFL circles, that they got promoted to head coaches elsewhere. The OC and DC they replaced them with last year were not good and it subsequently manifested on the field.  Roseman being the strong GM he is, wasted no time replacing them with marquis guys in Moore and Fangio.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect.  I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.

The coaching , he did have with Shurmur at least from an offensive standpoint but he wasn't more than an average to above average offensive coach. He isn't like some hot name in coaching circles right now, to be quite frank. However he definitely wasn't terrible either. Garrett was absolutely horrific and Daboll/Kafka is likely an above average to better than that coach.

However, with that said, you also need an offensive line to be functional , combined with some level of decent WRs. When you take those two critical aspects of the support system into account, it's hard to argue this wasn't a bottom of the barrel combination his entire career.

I agree the kitchen wasn't bare but it wasn't far off.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:28:13 AMI would argue the O-line coach is as important as your OC and DC.  First off, they are the only position to coach 5 players on the field (6 in heavy tight-end packages), with the possible exception of a DB coach in a system that plays mostly nickel.  Second, I don't think there is a position in the league where prospects come in less prepared for NFL games than O-linemen.  Finally, with the CBA limits, coaching O-linemen has never been more challenging owing to the lack of time in pads.

I would argue that you are 100% correct. I think that's why you see guys like Stoutland and Scarnecchia being held on to like gold by their teams even when there are major coaching changes around them.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 09:59:01 AMRic,

I like your post. I will say, to me this question is akin to which tire on a car is the most important.  For an offense to be successful you need a good QB and at least one really good receiving threat (can be a WR or special TE)

Waller was supposed to be that 'de-facto' WR1 and that experiment failed miserably (along with the OL).

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 03, 2024, 09:50:15 AMIs a great WR behind an average QB better, or is a great QB with average receivers better? That is the question

I was reading through Great Blue North this morning and saw this blip and figured I'd share https://gbnreport.com/giants-report-thoughts-on-the-draft/

Maybe there's more hope than some believe 

"...in fact, there have been rumblings that head coach Brian Daboll had been lobbying for the Giants to take a WR with their first round pick, possibly even if one of the top QB was still on the board at that point. Just maybe Daboll recalls that Josh Allen, whom he has been credited with 'developing' in Buffalo really didn't emerge as a top player in the NFL until the Bills went out and acquired a true #1 receiver in Stefon Diggs. Whatever, Giants fans probably shouldn't underestimate how impactful a really good receiver can have on a team.

Indeed, in addition to the Bills' Allen, Joe Burrow didn't really take off in Cincinnati until the Bengals' selected Ja'Marr Chase, his former teammate at LSU with the 6th in 2021, while there questions being asked in Miami whether Tua Tagovcailoa was indeed a legitimate franchise QB before the Dolphins brought in Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle. And we could go and name QBs from Jaylen Hurts to Geno Smith whose careers improved dramatically once given elite receivers with which to work.

And one can also look at the Giants own history. Back in 2008, for example, they appeared to be on cruise control to a possible second straight Super Bowl appearance before Plaxico Burress shot himself – and his career – in the leg and the 11-1 Giants finished the season 1-4 and crashed out of the playoffs in the first round. They were crowned champions again in 2011 with Eli throwing to a couple of Pro Bowl receivers in Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz, only to have the bottom fall out the following season, which coincided with Nicks being injured and never playing at that level again. And while there has been a tendency to dismiss the impact of Odell Beckham, the reality is that Eli had the best three-year run of his career from 2014-2016 during which the Giants had a top 10 offense in both 2014 and 2015 and made the playoffs in 2016. It's also hard not to notice that the bottom really fell out for the Giants in 2017 around the time that Odell was injured. Indeed, the fact is that over the course of his career, Eli was a very good QB when he had special receivers, but was closer to ordinary when he didn't..."

Jolly, I think Daboll probably wanted Maye due to his potential great tools converting into a Justin Herbert or even Josh Allen 2.0 in the NFL. Short of that, they probably reasoned no other QB really was a clear upgrade to the upside of a DJ if he is given better tools to work with.

The points GBN made about better receivers was on point.

I think the following at least from a potential standpoint can be looked at as a positive:

1. Good offensive minded coaching staff in place,   
2. Good OL coach finally in place,   
3. Decent WR unit with an average to above WR1 in place 
4. Decent enough OL with not too many rookies with long learning curves and some depth in case of injury 

5. A capable enough RB by committee core with some pass blocking ability   ....maybe

I worry about #5 the least in a well constructed pass-heavy scheme and Schoen/Daboll didn't seem to mind losing Barkley, so I think they feel the same way.