Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 10:46:49 AMI think the organization would be negligent if they see he is still seeing ghosts to allow him back out there to run into defensive linemen. Yes all of his sacks aren't on him but he didn't help the situation either.

I would be perfectly content with them wrapping him in bubble wrap and placing him at the end of the bench. Then telling him if he wants to play he's welcome to waive the injury clause, if not enjoy your   🍿.

If Jones still sees ghosts, he needs to be benched regardless of the contract.  The team will simply have to accept that they broke DJ beyond repair and move on.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 10:41:32 AMSo then what is your baseline expectation for Jones this season?

What will be a good season for you? Is that 4,000 yards 20 tds and 5 int or what?

You obviously think Jones will ascend, so was does that look like in production?

I am not a big fan of just statistical measures to say what is a successful season (as that removes context), but I will offer up what I would consider a successful season by Jones:

1)  No more than two games lost to injury, ideally less

2)  A QB rating of at least 95

3)  A QBR of at least 60

4)  As I mentioned previously, I would like to see his YPA hit 7.0 or better


I am not saying Jones will hit these marks, as I can't predict the future.  I do think there is a reasonable chance he will, but I am not going to go far as to say he is favored to do so.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on Today at 10:26:54 AMHe squeezed the Giants for every dime in that salary negotiation. I'd be shocked if he took a team friendly approach and waived it.

Considering that NYG's failure to protect him contributed to his injury issues, would you blame him for not waiving this part of his contract?

I will say one thing I would like to see from Jones this season.  I want to see his yards per attempt exceed 7.0 this season.   YPA is a pretty good measure of how a QB is driving the ball downfield, and ideally, you like to see that number be higher than 7.   I recently saw a statistic that Jones has never exceeded that mark in his college or pro career (he came close with a 6.8).   Nabers is DJ's first true YAC generator (although Robinson can also be pretty good at that).  With hopefully better protection and with a couple of receivers who can add to DJ's passing yardage, hopefully, he can finally exceed that 7.0 mark

DJ has an injury guarantee in his contract for 2025.  That fact may push the Giants to bench DJ in the second half if the season is out of hand (as other NFL teams dealing with such guarantees have done).  Here is the explanation by Dan Duggan


Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
I'll try to answer this thoroughly and hopefully it eliminates the confusion. There are two guarantees in play, which I think is leading to most of the confusion.

• He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury *only* when he signed. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. There's no deadline attached to that. Whenever they cut him, if he can't pass a physical, he's due the $23M.

• If he's on the roster on the fifth day of the 2025 league year (mid-March), $12M of that salary becomes *fully* guaranteed. So if they cut him for any reason after that date, he's due the $12M.

• So the two guarantees collide if he suffers a serious injury that will prevent him from passing a physical next March and they want to cut him. They could cut him and eat the full $23M or they could hold onto him, eat the $12M and then cut him when he's healthy to save the additional $11M.

They could try to get him to waive the injury guarantee, but I'm not sure why he would. You negotiate that into the contract to protect yourself from this very scenario.



https://x.com/DDuggan21/status/1785674778239525322

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 08:45:23 AMI have to confess, I was left a bit puzzled.  The claim that Mara "impacted" the decision not to draft a QB at 6 wasn't actually supported by the provided quote.  Either the author mischaracterized Lombardi's quote or they left out important parts of the quote.

I found another take on the quote:


"I wasn't surprised at all by that," Lombardi said on The Sports Junkies on 106.7 The Fan in D.C. on Monday. "Because if you listened to what John Mara said at the owners' meetings ... he said very clearly, 'I'll favor them drafting a quarterback if they're in love.' And he used the word 'love.'"

"I think they were in love with Drake Maye, but I don't think they were in love with J.J. McCarthy. And remember, John Mara, the president of the team -- he's the reason why Daniel Jones is making all that money -- he loves Daniel Jones. He drafted Daniel Jones as the sixth pick overall. Nothing would make them more happy than Daniel Jones being successful. They're almost willing it to happen. It won't, but they're hoping it will."

https://www.audacy.com/973thefansd/sports/lombardi-nygs-loyalty-to-players-causes-bad-decisions


I am not sure that you need an owner to tell a good GM that you should only be drafting a QB at 6 if you love that prospect.  With a less than 50% success rate on drafted QBs, drafting one hoping they will prove to be good is a bit of a fool's errand, in my opinion

Quote from: T200 on Today at 09:48:00 AMSpeaking strictly about *our* conversations, I never said he was a bust but I also said that he has not shown any traces or tendencies of being a franchise QB. He's the very definition of an average QB who is not capable of putting his team on his back and dragging them to a victory. He can get 7-9 wins but doesn't offer anything to get 12-15. He is a step down from Ryan Tannehill but with legs.

I guess that is where we differ.  I see examples of DJs being capable of being franchise QB.  I think his performance against the Vikings and even his record-setting performance against the Cards last season showed that he can be that franchise QB.   Of course, showing flashes and doing it consistently are two separate things.  Everyone sees things a bit differently, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: T200 on Today at 09:34:42 AMAnd this is where we have and continue to disagree. No need to rehash it. Just thought it was curious that you said "I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is", which is exactly why I and others have been saying.

Tim,

You know I choose my words carefully.  Do you think "a sense" is the same as knowing?  When I use the words "a sense," one is less than certain.   When one is less than certain, it should limit the strength of one's statements.   I have always held the position that we can't be certain about DJ being a bust and that there is still some potential (admittedly a bit of a long shot at this point) that he can even prove to be a franchise QB.   

Quote from: T200 on Today at 09:27:08 AMI have been saying this every single year Jones has been in the league: he can be evaluated despite what support he has or doesn't have around him. I got a lot of pushback from you and others saying that it was too difficult to evaluate him because of the lack of quality NFL support.

Seems to me the ability to evaluate a player is subjective.

Tim,

I think there is a nuance on this issue.  In a dysfunctional environment, every, or nearly every, QB will look bad.   In a poor environment, people should factor in the poor environment (many do not).

More importantly, the ability to properly evaluate a quarterback is really the purview of that quarterback's coaching staff.  As Daboll once said, people don't know the play calls.  An apparent open receiver may be meaningless because they ran the wrong route.   The fact of the matter is that we can get a sense of QB play by watching the games (or better yet, reviewing the all-22 with an informed eye), but no one outside the organization can evaluate with a strong degree of certainty (lacking the play calls and the QB's instructions).

Quote from: T200 on Today at 09:19:06 AMAs a fan, and in general, I try not to engage in it. It's self-defeatist, in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure all GMs and coaches know being second-guessed by fans and the media are a part of the job. They expect it and it probably doesn't phase them.

Tim,

I will confess I like to play armchair GM (and occasional HC).  Team-building just fascinates me.  Although I have my ideas of what I would do, I tend not to second-guess the actual GM or HC because I know they make their decisions wth far more information than I do; plus, they know their profession better than I do.  I think all of us do give in to the second-guessing temptation when dealing with GMs like Gettleman and HCs like Joe Judge.

Quote from: T200 on Today at 09:15:53 AM           

I will admit that some of that is assuming that Jones is healthy and will get a chance to operate in at least a minimally supportive NFL quarterback environment this season.  Plus, we have 2022, where DJ did operate in a less-than-ideal, but at least not dysfunctional (like 2023) environment.  Much like Schoen and Daboll were able to evaluate Jones enough in 2022 to give him his big contract.

Talkin' Giants

@TalkinGiants
Giants Reported UDFA signings

Wyoming WR Ayir Asante
West Florida WR Jon Jiles
North Dakota State OL Jake Kubas
Missouri OT Marcellus Johnson
UCLA DB Alex Johnson
Oregon DT Casey Rogers
LSU EDGE Ovie Oghoufo
Rutgers K Jude McAtamney

Giants have room for 1 more signing.
9:10 AM · May 1, 2024
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Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 09:11:43 AMMost of the playoffs team we face are in our division besides Tampa and Baltimore.

That is how you can finish 3rd in your division and still have the 6th hardest, on paper, schedule

Quote from: T200 on Today at 09:02:43 AM1) No

2) No

3) No

Playing the hindsight game is pointless, IMO. Decisions are made with as much information that is available at that time. He made what he thought were the best choices for this team given the many circumstances. He, and we as fans, will live with those decisions. Anybody can sit back and second-guess and we all can sit behind our keyboards with zero pressure and say what we would do. But put us in the spotlight and on the hot seat and things look a lot different.

What's done is done. We press forward and move on.

If one of the three QBs that Schoen (and Mara) passed on has an outstanding season, here's what's going to happen here at the BBH:

- There will be a litany of "I told you so" threads from folks who wanted to move on from Jones
- There will be a ton of pushback from Jones supporters saying, "It's only one season. Daniel had a great 2022 and won a playoff game."
- There will be the same regurgitated arguments for and against Jones. The horse will be resuscitated to only be beaten to death again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Tim,

I can't disagree with your sentiment.   I will say, though, if you don't like being second-guessed, being an NFL GM (or head coach) is the wrong career choice.  Being an armchair GM/HC/QB is part of the fun of being a fan.

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 08:55:29 AMI predict that if JJ McCarthy goes on to have an excellent career, the pro-Jones camp will attribute it to the team around him while the anti-Jones camp will put Schoen in the crosshairs for it, with the occasional mention of a Mara ultimatum.

I don't think that will be the case. I assume you put me in the "pro-Jones" camp.  I believe even with disparate support, we can get a sense of how good another QB is.  I don't even think JJ (a prospect I liked) needs to be better than Jones to question passing on him.  There is the issue of the cheap rookie contract that comes with JJ that would have helped the Giants salary cap.

In my opinion, passing on the three QBs comes with significant risk for Schoen and the company.  I have to think that they are banking on Jones having a comeback (or failing that being in a position to acquire his replacement next offseason) or they truly don't see the 3 prospects available to them as being anything special.