Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 03:25:48 PMTannehill lost AJ Brown and his numbers are the exact same; Chase was out for over a month and Burrow continued to put up top 5 numbers. I could go on-and-on...

Allen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?

Again... works both ways.

Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:30:05 PMWhat does this even mean?

Game, set, match:An expression indicating finality, announcing that a series of events—usually involving some form of rivalry—has reached a conclusion.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 03:38:41 PMGame, set, match:An expression indicating finality, announcing that a series of events—usually involving some form of rivalry—has reached a conclusion.

So in the interest of this discussion we should attach the word irrelevant as well.

Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 01:40:31 PMAnd you want consistency? What you expect him to do that every game and run for 160 yards every game? That is a tall order in the NFL . This isn't high school football were talking about here.

If you have to argue it would be great if you would argue against what I actually say rather than just making up straw men.  There's a vast gulf between saying I want 160 yards per game every game, which I never said, and pointing out that in half the games he averaged less than 4 ypc in half the games, which is what I actually said.  Just like I never said Jones needs everything perfect, or an elite player at every position on the offense like some have claimed I said.

Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:31:53 PMAllen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?

Again... works both ways.

Rodgers's is 38...this could be a natural decline that happens with all QBs. Carrs numbers are the same with Adam's as without him.

Herbert's  "dip" is VASTLY overstated.  Have you compared and contrasted the numbers against last year's production? It's not as vast as you and BF suggest. 

TUAs has come back to earth the last five weeks, going 1 and 4, while throwing 5 TD to 4 int. Even with two elite WRs, he's settling into to exact QB he's always been.  Good, but not great. 

Besides, you're missing the point. The point is, there's absolutely no guarantee that adding an elite wr will vastly improve DJs performance. The data actually says the reverse for QBs on their second contacts below 35 years old. 

Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 03:23:36 PM^

Game. Set. Match.

That's not to say that I don't think d jones could be effective laying on the dolphins and 49ers. He very well could and needs a team like that.

But for him to be here given the holes in the roster and not on a rookie deal makes no sense .

You said Jones sucks on another thread. No walking back now...

Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:40:11 PMSo in the interest of this discussion we should attach the word irrelevant as well.

I have no clue what you're even talking about I was just giving you the definition of a saying you asked the meaning to.

Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:31:53 PMAllen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?

Again... works both ways.

Ok, yes it works both ways, but you continue to say that. How would you explain Mahomes, Tannehill, Burrow, etc are all still playing equally well or better when playing without their top, elite, #1 WRs? Why aren't their numbers plummeting?

Why is a guy like Carr, despite getting Davante Adams, not playing much better? Getting a #1 WR is supposed to take you over the top as you have implied.

It seems that having these elite weapons is not as impactful as you make it out to be, seeing as some have worked out, where others have not, seems to be a pretty even mix of the two.

In reference to some of the examples you gave Rodgers has won 5 straight with Watsons lightbulb turning on a bit. They've entered the wildcard discussion. Also, how is Hopkins and the AZ doing without Murray? Herbert, despite missing Allen for half the season, and Williams for a few games, still posted a winning record of 5-4, close to .500, but still above it, and they will be playing in the playoffs thanks to it.

I will give you Allen and to a lesser extent Tua, they did play a lot better with the #1s added. Tua has still been wildly inconsistent, but better nonetheless. I view him as the same tier as Jones.

The data suggest an elite wr can help a QB on a rookie contract, playing less than 30 games, or an older QB playing his his twilight years. They have little impact on QBs in their prime.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 03:49:11 PMOk, yes it works both ways, but you continue to say that. How would you explain Mahomes, Tannehill, Burrow, etc are all still playing equally well or better when playing without their top, elite, #1 WRs? Why aren't their numbers plummeting?

Why is a guy like Carr, despite getting Davante Adams, not playing much better? Getting a #1 WR is supposed to take you over the top as you have implied.

It seems that having these elite weapons is not as impactful as you make it out to be, seeing as some have worked out, where others have not, seems to be a pretty even mix of the two.

In reference to some of the examples you gave Rodgers has won 5 straight with Watsons lightbulb turning on a bit. They've entered the wildcard discussion. Also, how is Hopkins and the AZ doing without Murray? Herbert, despite missing Allen for half the season, and Williams for a few games, still posted a winning record of 5-4, close to .500, but still above it, and they will be playing in the playoffs thanks to it.

I will give you Allen and to a lesser extent Tua, they did play a lot better with the #1s added. Tua has still been wildly inconsistent, but better nonetheless. I view him as the same tier as Jones.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 03:49:11 PMOk, yes it works both ways, but you continue to say that. How would you explain Mahomes, Tannehill, Burrow, etc are all still playing equally well or better when playing without their top, elite, #1 WRs? Why aren't their numbers plummeting?

Why is a guy like Carr, despite getting Davante Adams, not playing much better? Getting a #1 WR is supposed to take you over the top as you have implied.

It seems that having these elite weapons is not as impactful as you make it out to be, seeing as some have worked out, where others have not, seems to be a pretty even mix of the two.

In reference to some of the examples you gave Rodgers has won 5 straight with Watsons lightbulb turning on a bit. They've entered the wildcard discussion. Also, how is Hopkins and the AZ doing without Murray? Herbert, despite missing Allen for half the season, and Williams for a few games, still posted a winning record of 5-4, close to .500, but still above it, and they will be playing in the playoffs thanks to it.

I will give you Allen and to a lesser extent Tua, they did play a lot better with the #1s added. Tua has still been wildly inconsistent, but better nonetheless. I view him as the same tier as Jones.

Mahomes is gonna go down as one of the greatest ever. There's nothing wrong with saying he makes others around him better.

Tannehill is and always been an average QB who plays in a run first system.

Burrow had 8 TDs and 3 INTs without Chase in 4 games. Very small sample size. In those 4 games - he had a monster game (against Pitt with 4 TDs)- the other 3 were average games for him.

If you want to see what Hopkins meant for Murray - go check out what Arizona did with and without him last year. This year was a wasted year with Murray being banged up and Hopkins missing the first 6 games.

Devante adams joining the Raiders helped Josh Jacob's more than it helped anyone.

I have a hard time deciding if a true number one would help or hurt Jones.

In Jones career he's never been one to feed a Hot hand, the opposite In fact he tends to spread the ball around evenly or follow the game plan. Would getting a number one actually hurt him because he feels the need to force him the ball? There are a ton of variables that you just wouldn't know until it happened.

Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 04:10:44 PMMahomes is gonna go down as one of the greatest ever. There's nothing wrong with saying he makes others around him better.

Tannehill is and always been an average QB who plays in a run first system.

Burrow had 8 TDs and 3 INTs without Chase in 4 games. Very small sample size. In those 4 games - he had a monster game (against Pitt with 4 TDs)- the other 3 were average games for him.

If you want to see what Hopkins meant for Murray - go check out what Arizona did with and without him last year. This year was a wasted year with Murray being banged up and Hopkins missing the first 6 games.

Mahomes is a GOAT potentially, but losing Hill should have still made life harder, it hasn't, as great as he is, he is unquestionably playing better without him, He still has Kelce, but he was there with Hill every year.

Wouldn't Tannehill being average and in a run oriented attack, further highlight the importance of a #1 WR, why hasn't he regressed being average without AJ Brown?  An average QB would surely play worse without a pro bowl #1 WR right? Why is Henry still playing well despite no WR to draw doubles and/or keep defenses honest? That's one less guy to stop after trading him away.

You can't say Burrow was a sample size, then used a portion of Herberts season as an argument point. They both went a portion of the season without their top guy(s). Burrow also missed Mixon for a couple of games too.

The point on Hopkins and Murray still does not explain why Murrays absence has clearly been felt since his injury, they have been horrible without him.

Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 04:10:44 PMMahomes is gonna go down as one of the greatest ever. There's nothing wrong with saying he makes others around him better.

Tannehill is and always been an average QB who plays in a run first system.

Burrow had 8 TDs and 3 INTs without Chase in 4 games. Very small sample size. In those 4 games - he had a monster game (against Pitt with 4 TDs)- the other 3 were average games for him.

If you want to see what Hopkins meant for Murray - go check out what Arizona did with and without him last year. This year was a wasted year with Murray being banged up and Hopkins missing the first 6 games.

Isn't that Jones though? An average QB In a run first offense. That sums him up perfectly as Tannehill is the Jones ceiling comp for most fans and pundits alike.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 04:18:30 PMIsn't that Jones though? An average QB In a run first offense. That sums him up perfectly as Tannehill is the Jones ceiling comp for most fans and pundits alike.

It's also not true.  Tannehill last two years in Mia were actually pretty good.  He also put up an MVP type season a few years ago. He's not average, he's good. The problem is, good is no longer good enough.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 04:18:30 PMIsn't that Jones though? An average QB In a run first offense. That sums him up perfectly as Tannehill is the Jones ceiling comp for most fans and pundits alike.

He never had a WR like AJ brown. And I would argue a RB as good as Henry.