In 2022 a managed game plan of a Rushing Attack and a Quick Passing Game of short passes, supplemented with Read Option Runs and allowing Jones to take off when he saw nothing in the field, DJ had a successful season. Would that be referring to him as a Game Manager? In some respects, yes. Not that GM is a dirty term. All QB's need to manage the game from the huddle to the pre-snap reads, to moving protection and calling audibles.
2022 was a year that showed how Daboll could create a system where Daniel Jones could thrive, but it also covered up his imperfections and liabilities. Part of the reasoning behind the plan was the fact that the Offensive Line would struggle to protect Jones in the pocket and not allow time for downfield throws.
When the decision needed to be made on DJ's contract, they knew that he had skills both tangible and intangible that they could win with and felt that with the proper support of a team around him, they could win games. Oddly enough, they weren't completely sold on him so they created a contract that had an escape after two and three seasons.
Their next step was to try to solidify that Offensive line in 2023 and retain the O-line Coach in his second season, while bringing in some passing weapons in Waller, and Campbell, and drafting deep threat Jalin Hyatt. Unfortunately, the O-Line had injuries, Waller was injured, and the expected improvement from key players did not happen. Daniel Jones was injured and did not finish the season.
Jones was replaced by backup Tyrod Taylor who had some success under slightly better conditions but then he went down to injuries and "Flash In The Pan" Tommy DeVito with his enthusiasm rejuvenated the team and they won some games until he was figured out, bringing in Taylor once again to cap the season off on a higher note. Still in all that, it was apparent that the league figured out what they needed to do defensively based on what was successful for them in the later part of the 2022 season.
In their post-season evaluation, they knew that the Salary Cap on Jones meant that Jones would be their starting QB in 2024. They brought in three veteran Linemen with a history of success to improve the O-Line. The move they didn't make was to retain the best offensive weapon on the team. The man who was responsible for what success they did have in running the ball. They didn't sign their UFA Saquon Barkley.
Based on all this and however you decide to digest some or all of it, does this look like a Franchise that would have long-term plans for Daniel Jones? Is this a year they would pass on drafting a QB somewhere in the first round?
Obviously, they planned to replace Saquon with Devin Singletary. His production was good in Buffalo but he averaged just slightly over 11 attempts a game. Whether they draft a QB or not, what will be the Offensive Game Plan this season for Daniel Jones?
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 16, 2024, 11:52:14 AMWhether they draft a QB or not, what will be the Offensive Game Plan this season for Daniel Jones?
Ed: The quick answer is go back to what worked in 2022, but not so fast... the players are different (Saquon gone - for one important difference) and we don't yet know whether they'll go elite X receiver in the draft.
If they go QB with their first pick, then start putting in the offense for the new guy (i.e., next year's starter). Let the team "practice" the new stuff during the first eight games, then put the new starting QB in.
If they go elite WR or offensive lineman with their first pick, then see paragraph one. If the first pick is at some position other than QB, WR or OL, that man had better start and contribute immediately, or Schoen will have to find a hard hat to wear when attending games (I say that, not so much because I'd personally react that way, but because I know the vast majority of people here have threatened to do so).
Bob
Here's a question. Is a QB plying in a West Coast offense like Joe Montana was a game manager versus a QB playing in an Air Coryell offense?
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 16, 2024, 11:52:14 AMBased on all this and however you decide to digest some or all of it, does this look like a Franchise that would have long-term plans for Daniel Jones? Is this a year they would pass on drafting a QB somewhere in the first round?
In answering this question, another question needs to be answered first: Which year was the anomaly: 2022 or 2023?
Me? I see 2022 as the anomaly. The coaching staff had to bring in David Copperfield's smoke and mirrors to hide Jones's deficiencies. The team had the second-most 1-score victories behind the Vikings. The Vikings lost to us and we lost to the Eagles. Smoke and mirrors can win some close games. But beating a more talented team requires more talent.
I agree that they were very optimistic about creating a follow-up game plan for Jones while giving him a little more leash. After the opening drive against Dallas came up short, the wheels in his mind fell off.
There are a couple of reasons that I see that will keep Schoen and Daboll from getting a QB this year:
- They aren't high on any of the prospects
- The cost is too much to get him
If there is a QB they like this year and they can make a deal to get him, it will happen.
I think DJ is a very accurate deep ball thrower. In my opinion his problem is a fear to gamble to make that throw.
Am I wrong?
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 16, 2024, 11:52:14 AMIn 2022 a managed game plan of a Rushing Attack and a Quick Passing Game of short passes, supplemented with Read Option Runs and allowing Jones to take off when he saw nothing in the field, DJ had a successful season. Would that be referring to him as a Game Manager? In some respects, yes. Not that GM is a dirty term. All QB's need to manage the game from the huddle to the pre-snap reads, to moving protection and calling audibles.
2022 was a year that showed how Daboll could create a system where Daniel Jones could thrive, but it also covered up his imperfections and liabilities. Part of the reasoning behind the plan was the fact that the Offensive Line would struggle to protect Jones in the pocket and not allow time for downfield throws.
When the decision needed to be made on DJ's contract, they knew that he had skills both tangible and intangible that they could win with and felt that with the proper support of a team around him, they could win games. Oddly enough, they weren't completely sold on him so they created a contract that had an escape after two and three seasons.
Their next step was to try to solidify that Offensive line in 2023 and retain the O-line Coach in his second season, while bringing in some passing weapons in Waller, and Campbell, and drafting deep threat Jalin Hyatt. Unfortunately, the O-Line had injuries, Waller was injured, and the expected improvement from key players did not happen. Daniel Jones was injured and did not finish the season.
Jones was replaced by backup Tyrod Taylor who had some success under slightly better conditions but then he went down to injuries and "Flash In The Pan" Tommy DeVito with his enthusiasm rejuvenated the team and they won some games until he was figured out, bringing in Taylor once again to cap the season off on a higher note. Still in all that, it was apparent that the league figured out what they needed to do defensively based on what was successful for them in the later part of the 2022 season.
In their post-season evaluation, they knew that the Salary Cap on Jones meant that Jones would be their starting QB in 2024. They brought in three veteran Linemen with a history of success to improve the O-Line. The move they didn't make was to retain the best offensive weapon on the team. The man who was responsible for what success they did have in running the ball. They didn't sign their UFA Saquon Barkley.
Based on all this and however you decide to digest some or all of it, does this look like a Franchise that would have long-term plans for Daniel Jones? Is this a year they would pass on drafting a QB somewhere in the first round?
Obviously, they planned to replace Saquon with Devin Singletary. His production was good in Buffalo but he averaged just slightly over 11 attempts a game. Whether they draft a QB or not, what will be the Offensive Game Plan this season for Daniel Jones?
A couple of assumptions:
1) the Giants draft an elite WR who proves to be a number one WR in his rookie season
2) the coaching change and the veteran additions have the Giants O-line being adequate
3) Waller comes back, or a TE is drafted along with another RB
Based on those assumptions, I would expect a more balanced offense. I would expect the RB to be by committee. I would expect that, with adequate protection and proper receivers, more of the playbook will be opened up to Daniel Jones.
If Jones can stay healthy (and I appreciate his history, that is a big if), I could see Jones putting in a top 10 QB performance or top 15 QB performance. I would expect a running game that is in the middle of the pack.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 16, 2024, 02:59:13 PMA couple of assumptions:
1) the Giants draft an elite WR who proves to be a number one WR in his rookie season
2) the coaching change and the veteran additions have the Giants O-line being adequate
3) Waller comes back, or a TE is drafted along with another RB
Based on those assumptions, I would expect a more balanced offense. I would expect the RB to be by committee. I would expect that, with adequate protection and proper receivers, more of the playbook will be opened up to Daniel Jones.
If Jones can stay healthy (and I appreciate his history, that is a big if), I could see Jones putting in a top 10 QB performance or top 15 QB performance. I would expect a running game that is in the middle of the pack.
To your 1st and 2nd point.
1) Jones didn't throw to the open wrs he did have in 2023, so why would he do it now? In 2022 he refused to push the ball downfield, so why would he do it now? That's why the numbers on Jones in 2022 were so glaring because the ball rarely traveled beyond 10 yards.
2) The Giants Oline was adequate in 2022 and he still didn't go deep ever outside playing one of the all time worst defenses.
If Jones can't adequately run basic protections or process the field, then why would we want to open up more of the pkaybook to a player many see as broken?
I just think at this point him putting up a high completion percentage and QBR because 99% of his passes only travel 5 yards and for another season he ends up with 3,000 passing yards we will be stuck in the same exact position we are in now. Which is without a true franchise QB.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 16, 2024, 03:29:48 PMTo your 1st and 2nd point.
1) Jones didn't throw to the open wrs he did have in 2023, so why would he do it now? In 2022 he refused to push the ball downfield, so why would he do it now? That's why the numbers on Jones in 2022 were so glaring because the ball rarely traveled beyond 10 yards.
2) The Giants Oline was adequate in 2022 and he still didn't go deep ever outside playing one of the all time worst defenses.
If Jones can't adequately run basic protections or process the field, then why would we want to open up more of the pkaybook to a player many see as broken?
I just think at this point him putting up a high completion percentage and QBR because 99% of his passes only travel 5 yards and for another season he ends up with 3,000 passing yards we will be stuck in the same exact position we are in now. Which is without a true franchise QB.
I guess time will tell if you are correct or not
I've said this since day 1: Jones has all the tools, Height / Good Arm / Accuracy / Mobility / Smarts / Dedication / Toughness / Etc. The one tool he is missing is Processing speed and that is one item that can be improved with time but will always be an issue. This is why just looking at him and seeing his tools can get some people excited about his ceiling only to watch him bump his head pretty quickly :surrender:
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 16, 2024, 03:29:48 PMTo your 1st and 2nd point.
1) Jones didn't throw to the open wrs he did have in 2023, so why would he do it now? In 2022 he refused to push the ball downfield, so why would he do it now? That's why the numbers on Jones in 2022 were so glaring because the ball rarely traveled beyond 10 yards.
2) The Giants Oline was adequate in 2022 and he still didn't go deep ever outside playing one of the all time worst defenses.
If Jones can't adequately run basic protections or process the field, then why would we want to open up more of the pkaybook to a player many see as broken?
I just think at this point him putting up a high completion percentage and QBR because 99% of his passes only travel 5 yards and for another season he ends up with 3,000 passing yards we will be stuck in the same exact position we are in now. Which is without a true franchise QB.
I understand where you are coming from, but may I share something regarding your first point.
As far as Jones not pushing the ball down the field in 2023. If you noticed in his final game before getting hurt he started to push the ball deep.
I believe he saw the positive effects that Taylor had doing that before he got hurt, and so he began to open it as well, but sadly he tore his acl I believe in that game.
So in 2024 I believe DJ knows in order for him and the Giants offense to be successful and explosive, he's got to take some shots down the field, and I believe he will do that.
However as Mighty said time will tell, and we will have to see what happens.
Quote from: WheresDayne on April 16, 2024, 04:08:58 PMI've said this since day 1: Jones has all the tools, Height / Good Arm / Accuracy / Mobility / Smarts / Dedication / Toughness / Etc. The one tool he is missing is Processing speed and that is one item that can be improved with time but will always be an issue. This is why just looking at him and seeing his tools can get some people excited about his ceiling only to watch him bump his head pretty quickly :surrender:
That was obvious immediately and has not changed. Hard to teach that.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 16, 2024, 02:15:59 PMHere's a question. Is a QB plying in a West Coast offense like Joe Montana was a game manager versus a QB playing in an Air Coryell offense?
It's hard to answer that since the term "game manager" doesn't really mean anything. It changes based on context. To some it's a pejorative for a quarterback who plays in an offense designed around masking the quarterback's weaknesses. It could also be a quarterback who can't play beyond the Xs and Os. To others it's interchangeable with "system quarterback" e.g. Troy Aikman.
I think moves (the OL signings for example) point to more of an emphasis of the passing game.
Ultimately I think Kafka and Daboll want to run some blend of what they were part of in their previous roles. I think they are going to try to play that style but with attention to the personnel and knowing they dont have Mahomes or Allen.
Whether or not its successful or they can really open up the play book is to be determined.
This is why my first guess for the 1st round is a WR.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 16, 2024, 05:44:54 PMI think moves (the OL signings for example) point to more of an emphasis of the passing game.
Ultimately I think Kafka and Daboll want to run some blend of what they were part of in their previous roles. I think they are going to try to play that style but with attention to the personnel and knowing they dont have Mahomes or Allen.
Whether or not its successful or they can really open up the play book is to be determined.
This is why my first guess for the 1st round is a WR.
You hit on the point that that have to know the differences in the QBs they had prior to Jones. As well as the similarities. Do they see something in Jones that compels them to envision more from him?
Jones has been the Giants QB for five seasons now.
Time already has told.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 16, 2024, 06:38:12 PMYou hit on the point that that have to know the differences in the QBs they had prior to Jones. As well as the similarities. Do they see something in Jones that compels them to envision more from him?
I think they believe they can get more out of Jones with a competent OL. I have no idea how good they think Jones can be. I certainly feel his ceiling is very limited but they know him a heck of a lot better than I do.
To me the question is if they can get a bit more out of Jones and the team improves, how far can Jones really take a team? And is a 9-8 type season a reason to move forward with Jones, maybe restructure to more guaranteed money to lower his cap hit but lock him in for a few more years?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 16, 2024, 07:57:09 PMAnd is a 9-8 type season a reason to move forward with Jones, maybe restructure to more guaranteed money to lower his cap hit but lock him in for a few more years?
I feel like that is effectively what they did after the 2022 season. Unless they feel signing Jones was a great decision that they would do again if they could go back in time, I don't see why they'd want to compound it.
Daniel Jones only had 13 completions beyond 10 yards from the pocket (outside the numbers) in 2022
As I have stated previously he only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving in 2022.
He also finished with only 27 passes total beyond 20 yards in 2022
So when you see articles like this "Daniel Jones is a great deep ball passer in 2022" when he only threw it 20+ times it's super misleading.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/06/07/new-york-giants-daniel-jones-among-nfl-best-deep-ball-passers-2022/
2022 was absolutely smoke and mirrors which is why the Giants have a Day 1 Qb problem currently.
Quote from: WheresDayne on April 16, 2024, 04:08:58 PMI've said this since day 1: Jones has all the tools, Height / Good Arm / Accuracy / Mobility / Smarts / Dedication / Toughness / Etc. The one tool he is missing is Processing speed and that is one item that can be improved with time but will always be an issue. This is why just looking at him and seeing his tools can get some people excited about his ceiling only to watch him bump his head pretty quickly :surrender:
Where: Good post, and I really like your new "logo" under your name. Bob
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 16, 2024, 08:41:03 PMDaniel Jones only had 13 completions beyond 10 yards from the pocket (outside the numbers) in 2022
As I have stated previously he only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving in 2022.
He also finished with only 27 passes total beyond 20 yards in 2022
So when you see articles like this "Daniel Jones is a great deep ball passer in 2022" when he only threw it 20+ times it's super misleading.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/06/07/new-york-giants-daniel-jones-among-nfl-best-deep-ball-passers-2022/
2022 was absolutely smoke and mirrors which is why the Giants have a Day 1 Qb problem currently.
Hi there,
I don't think anyone will disagree with you regarding DJ's attempts at the deep ball especially in 2022.
But
I shared this with you earlier, and I'll share it again, as I am curious your thoughts?
"I understand where you are coming from, but may I share something regarding your first point.
As far as Jones not pushing the ball down the field in 2023. If you noticed in his final game before getting hurt he started to push the ball deep.
I believe he saw the positive effects that Taylor had doing that before he got hurt, and so he began to open it up as well, but sadly he tore his ACL I believe in that game.
So, in 2024 I believe DJ knows in order for him and the Giants offense to be successful and explosive, he's got to take some shots down the field, and I believe he will do that.
However as Mighty said time will tell, and we will have to see what happens.
So, my questions for you are:
A) Does DJ realize he needs to take some more deep shots during a game?
And
B) do you think he has the ability to do that?
And
C) If he does do that will the Giants offense improve and take a jump?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 16, 2024, 08:41:03 PMDaniel Jones only had 13 completions beyond 10 yards from the pocket (outside the numbers) in 2022
As I have stated previously he only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving in 2022.
He also finished with only 27 passes total beyond 20 yards in 2022
So when you see articles like this "Daniel Jones is a great deep ball passer in 2022" when he only threw it 20+ times it's super misleading.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/06/07/new-york-giants-daniel-jones-among-nfl-best-deep-ball-passers-2022/
2022 was absolutely smoke and mirrors which is why the Giants have a Day 1 Qb problem currently.
This is very similar to the issue with JJ McCarthy. Many people knock JJ out for lack of raw stats while failing to consider the quality of how his stats were produced. The same is true here. Because the Giant's O-line was a bottom-10 pass-protecting unit, the Giants simply couldn't scheme many deep balls because the O-line would break down. In fact, Daboll tried earlier in the season a deeper offense only to find his passing protection wasn't up to the task. So when JJ has the time, he has proven to be an effective and efficient deep-ball passer.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 08:11:43 AMThis is very similar to the issue with JJ McCarthy. Many people knock JJ out for lack of raw stats while failing to consider the quality of how his stats were produced. The same is true here. Because the Giant's O-line was a bottom-10 pass-protecting unit, the Giants simply couldn't scheme many deep balls because the O-line would break down. In fact, Daboll tried earlier in the season a deeper offense only to find his passing protection wasn't up to the task. So when JJ has the time, he has proven to be an effective and efficient deep-ball passer.
There's definitely something to this...meaning that the coaching staff and the game planning was at least as culpable with respect to the lack of deep passing as the quarterbacks decisions. We saw it when other quarterbacks were in the game too. Of course we will never know exactly what the coaches wanted or what specific instructions they were giving the players.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 08:52:48 AMThere's definitely something to this...meaning that the coaching staff and the game planning was at least as culpable with respect to the lack of deep passing as the quarterbacks decisions. We saw it when other quarterbacks were in the game too. Of course we will never know exactly what the coaches wanted or what specific instructions they were giving the players.
Or what the coaches wouldnt try due to personnel
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 17, 2024, 08:53:37 AMOr what the coaches wouldnt try due to personnel
That's more or less what I'm getting at.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 08:52:48 AMThere's definitely something to this...meaning that the coaching staff and the game planning was at least as culpable with respect to the lack of deep passing as the quarterbacks decisions. We saw it when other quarterbacks were in the game too. Of course we will never know exactly what the coaches wanted or what specific instructions they were giving the players.
We saw it with Eli Manning who turned into a chuck and duck QB late in his career thanks to the deterioration of the pass protection.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 16, 2024, 09:38:35 PMHi there,
I don't think anyone will disagree with you regarding DJ's attempts at the deep ball especially in 2022.
But
I shared this with you earlier, and I'll share it again, as I am curious your thoughts?
"I understand where you are coming from, but may I share something regarding your first point.
As far as Jones not pushing the ball down the field in 2023. If you noticed in his final game before getting hurt he started to push the ball deep.
I believe he saw the positive effects that Taylor had doing that before he got hurt, and so he began to open it up as well, but sadly he tore his ACL I believe in that game.
So, in 2024 I believe DJ knows in order for him and the Giants offense to be successful and explosive, he's got to take some shots down the field, and I believe he will do that.
However as Mighty said time will tell, and we will have to see what happens.
So, my questions for you are:
A) Does DJ realize he needs to take some more deep shots during a game? I'm sure he does, he averaged 1 pass beyond 20 yards per game in 2023 having 9 passes beyond 20 yards in 8 games.
And
B) do you think he has the ability to do that? Arm wise he has the ability to do that but processing speed and him being gun shy could prevent him from that.
And
C) If he does do that will the Giants offense improve and take a jump? I don't think he can so I'm skeptical of him being anything more than a backup. Most top end Qbs average 55-65 20+ yard completions a season, so Jones would almost have to double his 2022 output to be where other guys are. That's not counting 10+ yard throws as great Qbs are averaging in the 150-160 cmpl a season. So if he jumped to 55 20+ yard throws and 150 10+ yard throws then I imagine the team takes a step. That's however a lot to hope for.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 08:11:43 AMThis is very similar to the issue with JJ McCarthy. Many people knock JJ out for lack of raw stats while failing to consider the quality of how his stats were produced. The same is true here. Because the Giant's O-line was a bottom-10 pass-protecting unit, the Giants simply couldn't scheme many deep balls because the O-line would break down. In fact, Daboll tried earlier in the season a deeper offense only to find his passing protection wasn't up to the task. So when JJ has the time, he has proven to be an effective and efficient deep-ball passer.
I'm sorry but I see no connection between JJ Mccarthy and Daniel Jones.
The fact remains that Jones has failed to put up any type of volume passing in a passing league.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 09:11:20 AMI'm sorry but I see no connection between JJ Mccarthy and Daniel Jones.
The fact remains that Jones has failed to put up any type of volume passing in a passing league.
Jess,
It seems to me the big difference between us, is I view some stats as "raw"/"production" (for lack of a better term) and other stats as quality stats. Raw stats, in large part, are generated by sheer number of passing attempts. Quality stats are ones that measure what a QB does specifically with those attempts (usually on a per attempt basis).
The people, like yourself, who are strong critics of Jones tend to focus on the raw numbers rather than quality stats.
To further clarify, here are various stats in buckets
Raw stats:
Total yards or yards per game
Total touchdowns or touchdowns per game
Total interceptions or interceptions per game
Quality stats
QB rating
QBR
Yards per attempt
While technically not a stat, PFF rating would fall into this category
TD/INT ratio
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 09:17:19 AMJess,
It seems to me the big difference between us, is I view some stats as "raw"/"production" (for lack of a better term) and other stats as quality stats. Raw stats, in large part, are generated by sheer number of passing attempts. Quality stats are ones that measure what a QB does specifically with those attempts (usually on a per attempt basis).
The people, like yourself, who are strong critics of Jones tend to focus on the raw numbers rather than quality stats.
To further clarify, here are various stats in buckets
Raw stats:
Total yards or yards per game
Total touchdowns or touchdowns per game
Total interceptions or interceptions per game
Quality stats
QB rating
QBR
Yards per attempt
While technically not a stat, PFF rating would fall into this category
TD/INT ratio
Raw stats tell the story of the game.
Take for example the Tennessee Game to start the season, Jones did absolutely nothing outside of one deep pass in the 4th quarter and besides that it was defense, rushing, and special teams that won us that game.
Jones went 17-21 with an 80% cmpl rate, and a 115 rating but had zero effect on the game. So if we looked at your stats then you'd think Jones played extremely well but us as fans that watched the game realized he did absolutely nothing outside that one 60 yard throw in the 4th quarter. Before that he barely had a 100 passing yards the whole game, but we are supposed to act like he did well.
Sam howell in his 1st year playing put up more production than Jones ever has, and that's sad. In Jones best year his production tied Davis Mills which is equally sad. There's no way to get around that, 3rd and 4th round picks on equally bad teams putting up the same or more production than Jones. There is no defense of that other than to say Jones isn't that guy and quite frankly has never been that guy ever throughout high school, college, and the pros. He has 1 game a year that make people excited and forget about the other 15 were he played horribly.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 11:33:41 AMSam howell in his 1st year playing put up more production than Jones ever has, and that's sad.
You know who had the most passing attempts in the NFL last year? None other than Sam Howell. That is the danger of focusing too much on just raw stats, you don't see the whole picture. You only get the whole picture by considering raw stats, quality stats, and the support a given QB receives. Otherwise, you risk repeating the mistakes seen in the 3 blind men and the elephant parable
Three blind men come across an elephant. The first man happens upon its leg, and concludes it's a tree. The second man bumps into its trunk, and concludes it's a snake. The last blind man feels its tail, and concludes it's a broom.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 11:33:41 AMRaw stats tell the story of the game.
32 of 58 for 316 with 2TDs and 0 INTs doesn't sound that impressive, yet it's probably the greatest game I've ever seen a quarterback play.
But I suppose you need to factor that against 64 dropbacks, six sacks, 12 knockdowns and 20 QB hits.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 11:33:41 AMRaw stats tell the story of the game.
Take for example the Tennessee Game to start the season, Jones did absolutely nothing outside of one deep pass in the 4th quarter and besides that it was defense, rushing, and special teams that won us that game.
Jones went 17-21 with an 80% cmpl rate, and a 115 rating but had zero effect on the game. So if we looked at your stats then you'd think Jones played extremely well but us as fans that watched the game realized he did absolutely nothing outside that one 60 yard throw in the 4th quarter. Before that he barely had a 100 passing yards the whole game, but we are supposed to act like he did well.
Sam howell in his 1st year playing put up more production than Jones ever has, and that's sad. In Jones best year his production tied Davis Mills which is equally sad. There's no way to get around that, 3rd and 4th round picks on equally bad teams putting up the same or more production than Jones. There is no defense of that other than to say Jones isn't that guy and quite frankly has never been that guy ever throughout high school, college, and the pros. He has 1 game a year that make people excited and forget about the other 15 were he played horribly.
You must love being patronized. lol
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 17, 2024, 01:58:44 PMYou must love being patronized. lol
Ed,
You are being rather psychologically rigid. I value old sayings and parables quite a bit. I consider analogies valuable tools. I use them all the time to help me make decisions and to see and interpret the world. It's a shame you wouldn't allow me the freedom to follow my beliefs and values. Then again, I seriously doubt people who know and respect me would have seen things in the worst possible light, as you have done. Most would have simply would have seen me being me, with no slight or disrespect intended.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 12:12:20 PM32 of 58 for 316 with 2TDs and 0 INTs doesn't sound that impressive, yet it's probably the greatest game I've ever seen a quarterback play.
But I suppose you need to factor that against 64 dropbacks, six sacks, 12 knockdowns and 20 QB hits.
That was 12 years ago but if Jones was throwing for 300 yards and 2 tds a game we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Thank you for answering my question in a respectful and civil manner, that was very kind of you.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 11:50:55 AMYou know who had the most passing attempts in the NFL last year? None other than Sam Howell. That is the danger of focusing too much on just raw stats, you don't see the whole picture. You only get the whole picture by considering raw stats, quality stats, and the support a given QB receives. Otherwise, you risk repeating the mistakes seen in the 3 blind men and the elephant parable
Three blind men come across an elephant. The first man happens upon its leg, and concludes it's a tree. The second man bumps into its trunk, and concludes it's a snake. The last blind man feels its tail, and concludes it's a broom.
Mighty,
This is an excellent illustration.
It shows that all of us including myself need to evaluate all of the data, and not just subjective data but objective as well, to come to the proper conclusion.
Thank you so much for sharing it.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 09:01:39 PMThat was 12 years ago but if Jones was throwing for 300 yards and 2 tds a game we wouldn't be having this discussion.
With all due respect, why does it being 12 years ago matter?
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 07:55:07 PMWith all due respect, why does it being 12 years ago matter?
Because the game has changed drastically in the past 12 years. The NFl has passed so many rules to help not only the Qb but the WR among other things.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 08:40:05 PMBecause the game has changed drastically in the past 12 years. The NFl has passed so many rules to help not only the Qb but the WR among other things.
You said raw stats tell the story. Did raw stats only tell the story for the past three years?
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 19, 2024, 05:59:47 AMYou said raw stats tell the story. Did raw stats only tell the story for the past three years?
What are you talking about? 12 years ago 316 yards and 2 tds was a phenomenal game, it would even be a great game today. I was simply saying that in those 12 years they've only made it easier on qbs and wrs to put up more production. So if anything it should be easier.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 12:12:20 PM32 of 58 for 316 with 2TDs and 0 INTs doesn't sound that impressive, yet it's probably the greatest game I've ever seen a quarterback play.
But I suppose you need to factor that against 64 dropbacks, six sacks, 12 knockdowns and 20 QB hits.
That's not bad. The best I've seen with my eyes live, and my statistical sample is very small, was 26 of 37 passes for 321 yards, two (2) TDs, one (1) INT; nine (9) carries for 59 yards and one (1) TD. Of course, that was last season's comeback in the desert 🏜 at Glendale over the Cardinals; the tale of two halves game.
If nothing else, Jones proved he could air it out in that game. Yes, he missed once or twice, but he also hit Hyatt and Slayton long as well.
He knows this is the season to produce or his career will move to a new city, simple as that. What's not simple is the hell he's had to endure with this team in trying to establish his career. Some make it through (e.g. Simms, Hostetler, Collins, Manning) while others do not (e.g. Patterson Plank Joe, Craig Morton, Dave Brown, Kent Graham, Danny Kanell, etc.).
Even the great ones who did were smacked back down to Earth when the team around them struggled or lost players or their head coach (e.g. 1987, 1991, 1994).
BTW, I visited your Alma Mater last month when the NY Rangers came to town. Check it out the next time you're out here as they've completely cleaned up the areas around the campus and it looks state of the art now.
Peace!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 19, 2024, 08:09:17 AMWhat are you talking about? 12 years ago 316 yards and 2 tds was a phenomenal game, it would even be a great game today. I was simply saying that in those 12 years they've only made it easier on qbs and wrs to put up more production. So if anything it should be easier.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 19, 2024, 08:09:17 AMWhat are you talking about? 12 years ago 316 yards and 2 tds was a phenomenal game, it would even be a great game today. I was simply saying that in those 12 years they've only made it easier on qbs and wrs to put up more production. So if anything it should be easier.
Quote from: kartanoman on April 19, 2024, 08:40:45 AMThat's not bad. The best I've seen with my eyes live, and my statistical sample is very small, was 26 of 37 passes for 321 yards, two (2) TDs, one (1) INT; nine (9) carries for 59 yards and one (1) TD. Of course, that was last season's comeback in the desert 🏜 at Glendale over the Cardinals; the tale of two halves game.
If nothing else, Jones proved he could air it out in that game. Yes, he missed once or twice, but he also hit Hyatt and Slayton long as well.
He knows this is the season to produce or his career will move to a new city, simple as that. What's not simple is the hell he's had to endure with this team in trying to establish his career. Some make it through (e.g. Simms, Hostetler, Collins, Manning) while others do not (e.g. Patterson Plank Joe, Craig Morton, Dave Brown, Kent Graham, Danny Kanell, etc.).
Even the great ones who did were smacked back down to Earth when the team around them struggled or lost players or their head coach (e.g. 1987, 1991, 1994).
BTW, I visited your Alma Mater last month when the NY Rangers came to town. Check it out the next time you're out here as they've completely cleaned up the areas around the campus and it looks state of the art now.
Peace!
MY Alma Mater?
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 16, 2024, 11:52:14 AMIn 2022 a managed game plan of a Rushing Attack and a Quick Passing Game of short passes, supplemented with Read Option Runs and allowing Jones to take off when he saw nothing in the field, DJ had a successful season. Would that be referring to him as a Game Manager? In some respects, yes. Not that GM is a dirty term. All QB's need to manage the game from the huddle to the pre-snap reads, to moving protection and calling audibles.
2022 was a year that showed how Daboll could create a system where Daniel Jones could thrive, but it also covered up his imperfections and liabilities. Part of the reasoning behind the plan was the fact that the Offensive Line would struggle to protect Jones in the pocket and not allow time for downfield throws.
When the decision needed to be made on DJ's contract, they knew that he had skills both tangible and intangible that they could win with and felt that with the proper support of a team around him, they could win games. Oddly enough, they weren't completely sold on him so they created a contract that had an escape after two and three seasons.
Their next step was to try to solidify that Offensive line in 2023 and retain the O-line Coach in his second season, while bringing in some passing weapons in Waller, and Campbell, and drafting deep threat Jalin Hyatt. Unfortunately, the O-Line had injuries, Waller was injured, and the expected improvement from key players did not happen. Daniel Jones was injured and did not finish the season.
Jones was replaced by backup Tyrod Taylor who had some success under slightly better conditions but then he went down to injuries and "Flash In The Pan" Tommy DeVito with his enthusiasm rejuvenated the team and they won some games until he was figured out, bringing in Taylor once again to cap the season off on a higher note. Still in all that, it was apparent that the league figured out what they needed to do defensively based on what was successful for them in the later part of the 2022 season.
In their post-season evaluation, they knew that the Salary Cap on Jones meant that Jones would be their starting QB in 2024. They brought in three veteran Linemen with a history of success to improve the O-Line. The move they didn't make was to retain the best offensive weapon on the team. The man who was responsible for what success they did have in running the ball. They didn't sign their UFA Saquon Barkley.
Based on all this and however you decide to digest some or all of it, does this look like a Franchise that would have long-term plans for Daniel Jones? Is this a year they would pass on drafting a QB somewhere in the first round?
Obviously, they planned to replace Saquon with Devin Singletary. His production was good in Buffalo but he averaged just slightly over 11 attempts a game. Whether they draft a QB or not, what will be the Offensive Game Plan this season for Daniel Jones?
They had JJ McCarthy sitting on their laps and they passed him up for a Number One Receiver. Regardless of whether they pick up one of the third tier QB's in Pratt or Rattler or a surprise in Milton, either Jones or Lock will be slinging the ball at least for this year and maybe in 2025 too. No if and or buts about it.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 26, 2024, 05:52:04 AMThey had JJ McCarthy sitting on their laps and they passed him up for a Number One Receiver. Regardless of whether they pick up one of the third tier QB's in Pratt or Rattler or a surprise in Milton, either Jones or Lock will be slinging the ball at least for this year and maybe in 2025 too. No if and or buts about it.
Agreed and we fans will shake our heads and bitch and moan here while the mediocrity cycle continues and the bodies of GMs and coaches lay scattered about the wreckage.
Guess they didnt have McCarthy or the other QBs left rated as high as the media or some fans.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 26, 2024, 07:08:20 AMGuess they didnt have McCarthy or the other QBs left rated as high as the media or some fans.
Or the Giants are higher on Jones and Lock than many fans. The 3 QBs came off the board shortly after the Giants picked.
I hope J.J. McCarthy is a stud! :surrender:
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 09:01:39 PMThat was 12 years ago but if Jones was throwing for 300 yards and 2 tds a game we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I like Phil Simms' comment from years ago. In the NFL, statistics lie. If the team is playing well on both sides of the ball, the QBs shouldn't have big numbers at the end of the game. Its the teams that struggle to win (or not) that are throwing the ball for big numbers. Everyone is looking for the next Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes was a mediocre QB statistically in 2023 (yes, I said it) due in large part to a bunch of mediocre WR receivers. Compare his stats in 2023 to Jones in 2022. They are pretty similar, except Mahomes threw 150 more passes for about 10 more touchdowns and 10 more interceptions. Mahomes was able to grind out first downs with short passes and and his legs when he had to for wins. Kinda like Jones in 2022.
No, I'm not comparing the overall talent of Jones to Mahomes but there is a formula for winning that has won Superbowls and Jones has shown he is capable of making the plays that win games, which may not include big stats. It also included horrible offensive line play which was/is the one thing that has to be fixed for ANY QB to be successful in NY.
I think uconnjack got it right. THe pieces around him from the Offensive line to the recievers at all positions prohibit Jones from being successful without a great Defense.
Quote from: bamagiantfan on April 26, 2024, 07:42:27 AMI like Phil Simms' comment from years ago. In the NFL, statistics lie. If the team is playing well on both sides of the ball, the QBs shouldn't have big numbers at the end of the game. Its the teams that struggle to win (or not) that are throwing the ball for big numbers. Everyone is looking for the next Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes was a mediocre QB statistically in 2023 (yes, I said it) due in large part to a bunch of mediocre WR receivers. Compare his stats in 2023 to Jones in 2022. They are pretty similar, except Mahomes threw 150 more passes for about 10 more touchdowns and 10 more interceptions. Mahomes was able to grind out first downs with short passes and and his legs when he had to for wins. Kinda like Jones in 2022.
No, I'm not comparing the overall talent of Jones to Mahomes but there is a formula for winning that has won Superbowls and Jones has shown he is capable of making the plays that win games, which may not include big stats. It also included horrible offensive line play which was/is the one thing that has to be fixed for ANY QB to be successful in NY.
I think uconnjack got it right. THe pieces around him from the Offensive line to the recievers at all positions prohibit Jones from being successful without a great Defense.
The 1,000 yards and 12 tds difference is pretty significant. My problem isn't with Jones physically as he has the tools, I just see someone that can't mentally get over the hurdle of an offense that he's asked to do very little In. He can't read the field like he needs to or process things like he should for a Qb going into year 6.
In today's game you need a 4,000 yard 20td + qb to be relevant and we just don't have that currently.
Quote from: bamagiantfan on April 26, 2024, 07:42:27 AMI like Phil Simms' comment from years ago. In the NFL, statistics lie. If the team is playing well on both sides of the ball, the QBs shouldn't have big numbers at the end of the game. Its the teams that struggle to win (or not) that are throwing the ball for big numbers. Everyone is looking for the next Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes was a mediocre QB statistically in 2023 (yes, I said it) due in large part to a bunch of mediocre WR receivers. Compare his stats in 2023 to Jones in 2022. They are pretty similar, except Mahomes threw 150 more passes for about 10 more touchdowns and 10 more interceptions. Mahomes was able to grind out first downs with short passes and and his legs when he had to for wins. Kinda like Jones in 2022.
No, I'm not comparing the overall talent of Jones to Mahomes but there is a formula for winning that has won Superbowls and Jones has shown he is capable of making the plays that win games, which may not include big stats. It also included horrible offensive line play which was/is the one thing that has to be fixed for ANY QB to be successful in NY.
I think uconnjack got it right. THe pieces around him from the Offensive line to the recievers at all positions prohibit Jones from being successful without a great Defense.
I appreciate your perspective, bama! However, I have to disagree with your statement regarding Mahomes having mediocre season. I also believe his stats prove the opposite of the point you're trying to make. In point of fact, Mahomes finished in the Top 10 of almost every major NFL passing category, without a top-tier WR. By definition, a top 10 performance is anything other than mediocre. This also wasn't his first year playing without WR talent; he also played without WR talent last year, when he put up all world numbers. Indeed, he had an off year for Mahomes; however, it was hardly mediocre. In short, QBs akin to Mahomes and Brady can still put up top 10 numbers without quality WRs.
Yards #6
Comp #3
TDs #8
PCT #9
RTG #12
QBR #8
Quote from: kingm56 on April 26, 2024, 08:12:49 AMI appreciate your perspective, bama! However, I have to disagree with your statement regarding Mahomes having mediocre season. I also believe his stats prove the opposite of the point you're trying to make. In point of fact, Mahomes finished in the Top 10 of almost every major NFL passing category, without a top-tier WR. By definition, a top 10 performance is anything other than mediocre. This also wasn't his first year playing without WR talent; he also played without WR talent last year, when he put up all world numbers. Indeed, he had an off year for Mahomes; however, it was hardly mediocre. In short, QBs akin to Mahomes and Brady can still put up top 10 numbers without quality WRs.
Yards #6
Comp #3
TDs #8
PCT #9
RTG #12
QBR #8
Great rubuttle.
You left out a few,
INTs #4 Only three QBs threw more. I'll agree with you that 4th most interceptions is not mediocre. :laugh:
Y/A #19 I don't consider that good or bad. If that is where or when the ball needs to go because that is how Defenses are playing you, then that is where it needs to go, yet we kill Daniel Jones for similar numbers.
ATT #3 which of course drives all numbers, both good and bad.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 26, 2024, 07:59:02 AMIn today's game you need a 4,000 yard 20td + qb to be relevant and we just don't have that currently.
Um, Lamar Jackson?
Quote from: bamagiantfan on April 26, 2024, 08:34:07 AMGreat rubuttle.
You left out a few,
INTs #4 Only three QBs threw more. I'll agree with you that 4th most interceptions is not mediocre. :laugh:
Y/A #19 I don't consider that good or bad. If that is where or when the ball needs to go because that is how Defenses are playing you, then that is where it needs to go, yet we kill Daniel Jones for similar numbers.
ATT #3 which of course drives all numbers, both good and bad.
Great discussion, my friend!
I purposely left out ATT and Y/A as I don't view them as major stats, nor can be they be categorized as good or bad. I did omit INT and should have included it; however, I don't believe his higher than normal INT invalidates his aggregate top 10 performance. Do I agree he had an off year for Mahomes...Yes! However, I don't view a top 10 statistical year as being mediocre.
Having said that, I do appreciate someone who doesn't accept what pundits and 'expert' tells us. Your cogent response made me think this morning; I appreciate that!
Quote from: kingm56 on April 26, 2024, 08:58:02 AMGreat discussion, my friend!
I purposely left out ATT and Y/A as I don't view them as major stats, nor can be they be categorized as good or bad. I did omit INT and should have included it; however, I don't believe his higher than normal INT invalidates his aggregate top 10 performance. Do I agree he had an off year for Mahomes...Yes! However, I don't view a top 10 statistical year as being mediocre.
Having said that, I do appreciate someone who doesn't accept what pundits and 'expert' tells us. Your cogent response made me think this morning; I appreciate that!
Yards per attempt is a pretty critical stat, from what I have heard from NFL people. Matt, I think the problem with hand-picking individual stats is that you can often miss the big picture. That's why stats like QB rating and QBR are useful, as they are cumulative stats that assist and cover all aspects of play and prevent creating statistical subsets that can ultimately be misleading.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 09:03:23 AMYards per attempt is a pretty critical stat, from what I have heard from NFL people. Matt, I think the problem with hand-picking individual stats is that you can often miss the big picture. That's why stats like QB rating and QBR are useful, as they are cumulative stats that assist and cover all aspects of play and prevent creating statistical subsets that can ultimately be misleading.
Do Qbr and Qb rating really matter if the qb is only averaging 45 yards a quarter or 180-190 yards a game?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 26, 2024, 10:17:02 AMDo Qbr and Qb rating really matter if the qb is only averaging 45 yards a quarter or 180-190 yards a game?
Absolutely, QB rating and QBR are more qualitative stats that show how well a QB takes advantage of the opportunities given versus the raw stats that are most dependant on attempts
Quote from: Philosophers on April 16, 2024, 02:27:43 PMI think DJ is a very accurate deep ball thrower. In my opinion his problem is a fear to gamble to make that throw.
Am I wrong?
Nope...you are not wrong. DJ didn't get the nickname "Dimes" because of an erratic arm that was weak. In his first year he spent a lot of time looking at the turf or the sky. He led the NFL in interceptions. He was told he needed to cut down on turnovers, so he did what he was told and when no receiver was open and he had a couple of beasts about to fill his face mask with dirt and grass, he took off on his own becoming a bit of a legend for a running QB (but that was out of life-saving necessity)
But we all know the story and even Mara admitted that the team did everything in their power to screw the kid up. Every year he played under different head coaches, offensive coaches, QB coaches, OL coaches, etc., while always running for his life with a substandard receiving cast and was told "not to take chances and do NOT make turnovers". He did what he was told...and he still does what he is told
I'm still excited to see what he can do with a real offensive line that offers protection and some receivers that know how to make things happen. I'm not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water because I must have instant gratification that comes by going to the QB store and purchasing a franchise QB
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 10:20:49 AMAbsolutely, QB rating and QBR are more qualitative stats that show how well a QB takes advantage of the opportunities given versus the raw stats that are most dependant on attempts
Fundamentally, it's about moving the sticks (yards) and scoring points (TDs). QBs who throw for lots of yards and TDs, give your team the best chance to win championships, espically in the modern era. I suspect that's why yards, TDs, and SBs are the focus for determining HoF worthiness, as it relates to QBs. .
These QBs comprise the NFL(s) Top 10 ALL-TIME QB RATING:
Deshaun Watson
Dak Prescott
Kirk Cousins
Jimmy Garoppolo
It matters; however, not as much as yards and TDs.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 26, 2024, 07:59:02 AMThe 1,000 yards and 12 tds difference is pretty significant. My problem isn't with Jones physically as he has the tools, I just see someone that can't mentally get over the hurdle of an offense that he's asked to do very little In. He can't read the field like he needs to or process things like he should for a Qb going into year 6.
In today's game you need a 4,000 yard 20td + qb to be relevant and we just don't have that currently.
Forget about the statistics, the reading of defenses, going through progressions, looking off safeties, and passing accuracy.
The number one thing that drives me insane about Daniel Jones is his lack of vision in the pocket when things get messy. He doesn't know where his blockers are and he certainly doesn't know where the rushers are. If the backside rusher makes contact with him he is almost always surprised and this results in a turnover far too often. He's got to get better at knowing without looking. For all the comedy surrounding Devito, watch how well he positions himself inside the pocket and only takes off at the absolutely correct time to abandon it. It's really his best ability.
Jones looks like an athlete "trying" to play quarterback. He doesn't just need better protection. He needs late 70s Raiders-early 80s Skins-early 90s Cowboys level of pass blocking.
But hey, hope springs eternal.
"The number one thing that drives me insane about Daniel Jones is his lack of vision in the pocket when things get messy."
I see it more of Jones not having time to see the play develop in a pocket that is always messy. I'll give Kafka some blame for that. Barkley wasn't great at blitz pickup but he was okay. Too often Barkley was in the pattern or wasn't on the field in a 4 wide set which, with the Giants offensive line woes, just begs the Defenses to bring extras. Kafka's personnel for protection schemes don't often match the playcalling. In simpler terms, if you count to two and the pocket is already collapsed, how is Jones supposed to get the ball out of his hand on a deeper route.
The play calling in 2022 was a natural reaction to the Offensive line injuries and issues and it worked. For some reason they abandoned that last year and started running routes further down field. It just didn't work, mostly because the problems on the line had not been fixed.
When Arizona went into a Prevent Defense we saw what the offense could look like. Unfortunately, the Giants were unable to handle the pass rush in normal situations and the O-line, QBs, and receivers all looked like they can't play.
Quote from: kingm56 on April 26, 2024, 11:16:51 AMFundamentally, it's about moving the sticks (yards) and scoring points (TDs). QBs who throw for lots of yards and TDs, give your team the best chance to win championships, espically in the modern era. I suspect that's why yards, TDs, and SBs are the focus for determining HoF worthiness, as it relates to QBs. .
These QBs comprise the NFL(s) Top 10 ALL-TIME QB RATING:
Deshaun Watson
Dak Prescott
Kirk Cousins
Jimmy Garoppolo
It matters; however, not as much as yards and TDs.
To your point in bold, if that is your assertion why don't you ever include rushing yards and touchdowns in your QB stats?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 26, 2024, 12:39:26 PMTo your point in bold, if that is your assertion why don't you ever include rushing yards and touchdowns in your QB stats?
I do, and have. However, this thread was about Patrick Mahomes, and the negative impact of limited WR talent. I don't believe his 400 yards rushing is relevant to the conversation. If I included them, he actually jumps from 6 to 4; however, as I stated, it's not relevant to the point I was replying to.
Regardless, in the modern era, it's about passing production. You must be able to throw the football to truly be competitive. High volume passers are winning championships, not running QBs.