I heard this on the GiantsInsider podcast/youtube video I posted on another thread. I heard that Lock's FBI was wanting (Lock had struggled to explain his college playbook). So I did a bit of research and found this
https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/denver-broncos-had-to-dummy-down-playbook-for-drew-lock-per-nfl-insider-rumor
A big reason why you put people "on tge board" at '30' visits and ask them to explain both good and bad plays during interviews at the Combine. So much of QB'ing pre-snap is cerebral. This is why we loved Eli
Quote from: UKGiantsFan on March 28, 2024, 03:14:24 PMA big reason why you put people "on tge board" at '30' visits and ask them to explain both good and bad plays during interviews at the Combine. So much of QB'ing pre-snap is cerebral. This is why we loved Eli
I suspect it's also why a QB whose film seemed worthy of a first-round selection lasted to round two. Ceri, you are absolutely correct in why they put them on the board. The problem is far too many coaches just think to themselves, "I just need to coach this kid up".
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 28, 2024, 03:19:15 PMI suspect it's also why a QB whose film seemed worthy of a first-round selection lasted to round two. Ceri, you are absolutely correct in why they put them on the board. The problem is far too many coaches just think to themselves, "I just need to coach this kid up".
Why Jeff George and Jay Cutler and Jake Plummer continued to be relevant. Coaches always thinking they could get gold out of straw.
Maybe Lock was a bad fit the offense Broncos wanted to run (or simply not a good "second" for the starting QB.
MY point is that it doesn't necessarily mean he is dumb.
IMO, it's much more likely he simply was in the "wrong place" at the wrong time.
Bob
2022 showed the Giants can slim down a playbook, lean on a skill position and make the playoffs.
Well Daboll has practice, hes already dumbed down the playbook.
Lock has gotten better with his command and recognition. Yes, he looked bad with the Broncs..lost. Probably a combination of a bad fit and his college experience leaving him unprepared.
We'll see if Daboll can mold him-he is a backup, after all.
There is a pretty solid chance he will get a chance to prove himself on the field.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 28, 2024, 09:14:15 PMWell Daboll has practice, hes already dumbed down the playbook.
That's not exactly what he did. He sped up plays because his offensive lines have been poor and then historically bad. There is a difference between modifying plays to get the ball out quicker (or run) and simplifying them for the QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 29, 2024, 07:11:33 AMThat's not exactly what he did. He sped up plays because his offensive lines have been poor and then historically bad. There is a difference between modifying plays to get the ball out quicker (or run) and simplifying them for the QB.
Every call had 2 plays either a run or a pass, with little to no audibles, or line protection adjustments. That sounds slimmed down to me.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 29, 2024, 08:11:01 AMEvery call had 2 plays either a run or a pass, with little to no audibles, or line protection adjustments. That sounds slimmed down to me.
Where did you learn that from?
Well he should fit in well with the Giants QB room as they run the most remedial offense in the NFL.
If true, looks like the they can leave the training wheels on the offense regardless of who is behind center.
Quote from: babywhales on March 29, 2024, 08:52:04 AMWell he should fit in well with the Giants QB room as they run the most remedial offense in the NFL.
If true, looks like the they can leave the training wheels on the offense regardless of who is behind center.
I listen to a ton of NFL experts (former GMs, coaches, and players) and I have yet to hear a single one of them suggest the Giants offense was simple or simplified
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 29, 2024, 08:53:52 AMI listen to a ton of NFL experts (former GMs, coaches, and players) and I have yet to hear a single one of them suggest the Giants offense was simple or simplified
I have heard multiple say that jones was running the most basic offense and poorly at that. One DC, in fact some even mocked him for his inability to run such a simple offense. This has been discussed here multiple times.
Just doing a quick search i found this instantly, ""It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback," the coach said about Jones during a chat with NFL senior writer Mike Sando of The Athletic. "He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows."
"They played simple offense last year, and the guy made simple plays, but here is the issue," the defensive coach said about Jones guiding the 2022 Giants to the postseason and to a road playoff victory. "This year, simple is not good enough. The boot pass will never be enough to get you back into the game. It's like last year they hid the secret somehow and maybe he showed flashes of improvement. It looks bad now."
Quote from: babywhales on March 29, 2024, 09:55:11 AMI have heard multiple say that jones was running the most basic offense and poorly at that. One DC, in fact some even mocked him for his inability to run such a simple offense.
I did not hear that from any of the many former NFL people I listen to. If you have the name and quote from the DC, I would be interested in hearing it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 29, 2024, 10:03:42 AMI did not hear that from any of the many former NFL people I listen to. If you have the name and quote from the DC, I would be interested in hearing it.
This is the classic nameless quote which I remember seeing at some point:
"It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback," the coach said about Jones during a chat with NFL senior writer Mike Sando of The Athletic. "He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows." https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/defensive_coach_rips_giants_daniel_jones_amid_struggles/s1_13132_39350063
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 29, 2024, 12:04:29 PMThis is the classic nameless quote which I remember seeing at some point:
"It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback," the coach said about Jones during a chat with NFL senior writer Mike Sando of The Athletic. "He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows."
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/defensive_coach_rips_giants_daniel_jones_amid_struggles/s1_13132_39350063
True,
One defensive coach (no reason to believe this coach was a DC since writers will usually designate that, made these comments while not putting his name to them. Plus, this was based on the dysfunctional 2023 season. I don't think this evidence supports the claims made on this thread, especially when considered in context of what the offensive coach said.
Jones would look better if the Giants' offensive line were not so weak, if running back Saquon Barkley were healthy, if the team had better wide receivers and if the Giants had faced fewer top defenses to this point.
"I wouldn't want to be playing quarterback for the Giants right now," one offensive coach said.
Still, coaches who have watched Jones this season do not see evidence the Giants have faith in their quarterback to operate more than a basic offense. They see a quarterback who limits the Giants' options more than he expands them.
"It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback," a defensive coach said. "He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows."
This coach cited example after example of misplaced balls even on completed passes.
A completed swing pass to a wide-open Barkley that the running back had to catch between his ankles in the closing minutes at Arizona was one such play.
The placement of a completed pass to Parris Campbell late in the second quarter against San Francisco that prevented the receiver from getting out of bounds to stop the clock was another.
When Jones connected with rookie Jalin Hyatt for a 31-yard gain in the late going against the Cardinals, it was a huge play, but the ball placement brought the defensive back into position for a near breakup.
"The guy is open — just lay it up to him," the defensive coach said of the pass to Hyatt. "He makes it a competitive jump-ball situation."
The pick-six interception Jones threw against Seattle, which precipitated Daboll's sideline tablet toss, was among the obvious missteps.
On another pick-six, this one against Dallas, Jones targeted Barkley on a third-and-19 play in the first quarter. The Cowboys had a cornerback positioned in cloud coverage to smash into Barkley the moment Barkley caught the ball. That's what happened, sending the ball high into the air, where it was intercepted and returned for a touchdown.
https://theathletic.com/4928209/2023/10/05/giants-jets-daniel-jones-zach-wilson-struggles/
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 29, 2024, 12:04:29 PMThis is the classic nameless quote which I remember seeing at some point:
"It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback," the coach said about Jones during a chat with NFL senior writer Mike Sando of The Athletic. "He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows."
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/defensive_coach_rips_giants_daniel_jones_amid_struggles/s1_13132_39350063
Also, based on the timestamp, this position coach or lower is likely unemployed because a working NFL coach does not have time to do film breakdowns on an opposing player and go over that breakdown in detail with a reporter.
Jones ran a 1 read offense at Duke (65% one reads for college career)
Jones excelled under Shurmer in his 1 read , quick pass offense . That too was a stripped down offense . (To be fair he was a rookie)
Jones has done little to nothing since as a passer , including under Daboll
Watching All22, what makes you think the comments are not untrue ???
Looking at the degrees of complexity
On end you have Eli and Gilbride running one of, if not the most complex offenses ever and on the other you have jones and 4 coaches who keep it relatively and when it's not the wheels come off. In those cases jones isn't the only reason why and maybe not the biggest reason why but he is certainly part of the problem
Lesson learned , don't draft a qb who is slow to process info. If they came from a 1 read offense don't assume they can simply transition to a multi read offense
Looking at the film it's clear to me a change is coming at a qb, I just don't know if it's this year or next
Quote from: babywhales on March 29, 2024, 02:41:17 PMJones ran a 1 read offense at Duke (65% one reads for college career)
Jones excelled under Shurmer in his 1 read , quick pass offense . That too was a stripped down offense . (To be fair he was a rookie)
Jones has done little to nothing since as a passer , including under Daboll
Watching All22, what makes you think the comments are not untrue ???
Looking at the degrees of complexity
On end you have Eli and Gilbride running one of, if not the most complex offenses ever and on the other you have jones and 4 coaches who keep it relatively and when it's not the wheels come off. In those cases jones isn't the only reason why and maybe not the biggest reason why but he is certainly part of the problem
Lesson learned , don't draft a qb who is slow to process info. If they came from a 1 read offense don't assume they can simply transition to a multi read offense
Looking at the film it's clear to me a change is coming at a qb, I just don't know if it's this year or next
Chris,
I do watch the All 22, which is why I know you are exaggerating how simple Daboll's offense is. Beyond that, no one in the NFL runs the complex offense of Kevin Gilbride owing to the greater mobility of players so there is no longer the luxury of long learning curves.
One thing that I distinctly remember is when Daboll took over, I heard interviews of all the offensive players doing the offseason (after they started OTAs). To a man, all the offensive skill position players talked about how challenging and difficult it was to learn Daboll's offense.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 29, 2024, 02:45:38 PM...when Daboll took over... all the offensive skill position players talked about how challenging and difficult it was to learn Daboll's offense.
Rich: All good offenses are hard to learn. Daboll's offense relies more on WR's/TE's/RB's doing the right thing as much as it relies on the QB making the right read and correct run-pass decision.
One-read offenses are not predetermined. Although the QB is going only look in one place, it's up to him (at the line of scrimmage) to determine WHERE he should make that one look.
The decision rests on first deciding whether to run or pass. If he elects to pass, then he decides where to look.
It's all based on where the defenders line up and where the QB believes they'll be after the snap. NOTHING about this is simple, easy or uncomplicated. That's why they want and need a smart QB. Except on designed running plays, if the QB in Daboll's offense does anything other than hand the ball off or throw a pass, it means the QB read wrong or guessed wrong.
What makes Daboll's offense difficult is the same thing that makes it successful... it's hard to learn... which means it's hard for defenders to learn, too.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 30, 2024, 08:03:08 AMRich: All good offenses are hard to learn. Daboll's offense relies more on WR's/TE's/RB's doing the right thing as much as it relies on the QB making the right read and correct run-pass decision.
One-read offenses are not predetermined. Although the QB is going only look in one place, it's up to him (at the line of scrimmage) to determine WHERE he should make that one look.
The decision rests on first deciding whether to run or pass. If he elects to pass, then he decides where to look.
It's all based on where the defenders line up and where the QB believes they'll be after the snap. NOTHING about this is simple, easy or uncomplicated. That's why they want and need a smart QB. Except on designed running plays, if the QB in Daboll's offense does anything other than hand the ball off or throw a pass, it means the QB read wrong or guessed wrong.
What makes Daboll's offense difficult is the same thing that makes it successful... it's hard to learn... which means it's hard for defenders to learn, too.
Bob
Bob, Daboll dumbed down the Offense for Daniel Jones. He asked him what plays he felt most comfortable with and worked off those routes. Limiting reads and mostly High-Lows and Read Options.
If Lock is similarly challenged, he will fit right in.
What the people making the unsubstantiated claims about the Giants having to dumb down the play book for Daniel Jones never explain is this:
The mental aspect of the game is heavily scouted (and readily apparent) by teams. Daniel Jones struggled to understand the NFL game according to some of his harshest critics but Shurmur and Gettleman went ahead and drafted him sixth overall (Lock was not a first-round pick)
Schoen and Daboll also learned that Jones is supposedly limited mentally, yet they signed him to a big-ticket contract (where the Broncos moved on from Lock).
The number of people I need to believe are below average in intelligence and/or judgment is just too much for me.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 30, 2024, 10:04:22 AMWhat the people making the unsubstantiated claims about the Giants having to dumb down the play book for Daniel Jones never explain is this:
The mental aspect of the game is heavily scouted (and readily apparent) by teams. Daniel Jones struggled to understand the NFL game according to some of his harshest critics but Shurmur and Gettleman went ahead and drafted him sixth overall (Lock was not a first-round pick)
Schoen and Daboll also learned that Jones is supposedly limited mentally, yet they signed him to a big-ticket contract (where the Broncos moved on from Lock).
The number of people I need to believe are below average in intelligence and/or judgment is just too much for me.
Unsubstantiated is a bit much. The comments are steadily made in film reviews, and podcasts, pressers and in articles. This off course happened over a year and half and you act like I need a cited report and references. The more shocking thing is that this has been discussed here over the same time frame and you are just now commenting on it.
Jones, a Duke graduate, is obviously smart and several articles have been written to state how impressed Daboll and others have been when they talk football, the academic side of football. Unfortunately, the game is not played at a white board and is played in real-time and that is where Jones struggles. Poor pre-snap reads and poor in play mental processing.
In 2023, the Offense was built around the corner stone idea of not putting the ball in Jones' hands. Spread out the offense, less players in the box and let Jones and Barkley run it. Jones scramble more in 2023 then in the 4 years prior. Running unbalanced sets with both OT's on same side, 113 personal, pin and pull, etc . Passing out of a league high playaction still couldnt get the ball down field. While only throwing 25-28 times over 20 yards, fewest in NFL. The run first and pass second worked and when Jones was asked to throw it was from league high Play action out of heavy formations.
Dan Dugan wrote an article in sept of 2023 calling the 2022 offense smoke and mirrors. Multiple others stating in the attempt to disguise what Jones does poorly the Giants are running an offense that doesn't have him do much, multiple references to a QB who does little QB stuff. Using non traditional formations to keep defenses at bay, Barkley as a wildcat, Slayton as a TE and pitching to Bellinger on a run, Breda running jet sweeps. the coaches did a great job in 2022 of letting the offense do enough to succeed without it hurting the team. All of that had more to do with jones and Barkley running plays complementing each other and keeping defenses at bay and not Jones's the QB, not his play as a passer and dropping back.
The wealth of film reviews continually highlights and suggest, a simple yet camouflaged offense in 2022. Just because they came into camp with complex ideas does not mean that is what they implemented.
Daboll said they implemented terminology and basic offense in year one.
Year two they opened it up the offense, had more talent, more speed and the wheels feel off. Skinner did a podcast in early 2023 season where he stated the Giants are opening up the offense and asking Jones to do more and he failed to raise his game.
"They realized, 'Let's not put Jones in situations where he might have a bunch of moving parts, where he might have to think faster than he's capable of,' " Orlovsky said. "That's when he feels like, 'I have to get the ball out of my hands' and make a quick decision in the midst of chaos or under pressure. That's kind of been the M.O. for him for three years."
"It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback. He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows."
Daboll in 2024 did an interview and was asked why Waller isn't getting more targets and he stated "the reads" indicating his quarterbacks vision and decisions.
The play, as you could guess, featured Jones staring down his receiver. That, in effect, dialed up the game-breaking defensive touchdown for Witherspoon (who also recorded seven tackles and two sacks). You simply can't let cornerbacks where you want to throw the ball if you want to succeed as a quarterback. It's one of the cardinal rules of succeeding as a signal caller at the professional level. It's something Jones still does five years into his NFL career.
After the game, on NFL Gameday Final, Witherspoon was asked about Seattle's tremendous defensive success and how it managed to turn Jones into a trademark pumpkin. Rather than offer the standard cannon fodder about appreciating his teammates and working hard, Witherspoon almost immediately said, "We knew he [Jones] liked to stare down his first target."
I agree why did they sign him to such a deal? I felt going in to FA he was worth 25 mill per, I think they clearly paid too much at 92 mill on a 2year deal. I suspect they felt the growth in year 1 would continue. The combination of the poor Oline and Jones poor play led to a disastrous season for the GMEN overall and Jones as a QB.
@babywhales Rather than just talking about people's opinions, we do have some factual data in the form of the Wonderlic test score. The Wonderlic measures the following:
Yes, the Wonderlic test measures processing speed. The Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT), also known as the Wonderlic test, is a psychometric assessment that assesses the test-taker's problem-solving skills and aptitude. The WPT has 50 questions and a time limit of 12 minutes. It assesses verbal, numerical, and spatial skills, and
how quickly and well you can think. The WPT has four categories: General Knowledge, Verbal Reasoning, Abstract Reasoning, and Numerical Reasoning
The 2019 Wonderlic scores were leaked for QBs:
Quarterbacks
Ryan Finley: 43
Gardner Minshew: 42
Daniel Jones: 37Easton Stick: 32
Clayton Thorson: 32
Trace McSorley: 31
Will Grier: 30
Brett Rypien: 28
Jarrett Stidham: 27
Drew Lock: 26
Tyree Jackson: 25
Dwayne Haskins: 25
Sean McGuire: 22
Kyler Murray: 20
Again, it's very hard to believe the claims that Jones needed things "dumb down"
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 11:15:32 AM@babywhales
Rather than just talking about people's opinions, we do have some factual data in the form of the Wonderlic test score. The Wonderlic measures the following:
Yes, the Wonderlic test measures processing speed. The Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT), also known as the Wonderlic test, is a psychometric assessment that assesses the test-taker's problem-solving skills and aptitude. The WPT has 50 questions and a time limit of 12 minutes. It assesses verbal, numerical, and spatial skills, and how quickly and well you can think. The WPT has four categories: General Knowledge, Verbal Reasoning, Abstract Reasoning, and Numerical Reasoning
The 2019 Wonderlic scores were leaked for QBs:
Quarterbacks
Ryan Finley: 43
Gardner Minshew: 42
Daniel Jones: 37
Easton Stick: 32
Clayton Thorson: 32
Trace McSorley: 31
Will Grier: 30
Brett Rypien: 28
Jarrett Stidham: 27
Drew Lock: 26
Tyree Jackson: 25
Dwayne Haskins: 25
Sean McGuire: 22
Kyler Murray: 20
Again, it's very hard to believe the claims that Jones needed things "dumb down"
In all that I just provided I get a Wonderlic score? well maybe if Jones was worried the test practitioner was going to blindside him while answering the test results would have been different.
I suppose his inability to read and address empty protection and overhang coverage didn't happen either because he has a high wonderlic score?
Or maybe a test index does not directly corelate to field play?
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 11:24:19 AMIn all that I just provided I get a Wonderlic score? well maybe if Jones was worried the test practitioner was going to blindside him while answering the test results would have been different.
I suppose his inability to read and address empty protection and overhang coverage didn't happen either because he has a high wonderlic score?
Or maybe a test index does not directly corelate to field play?
Chris,
Seeing ghosts because the Giants are guilty of malpractice in terms of getting the living crap beat out of him is different than not being intelligent and capable of processing. I think you and many fans really fail to appreciate just how terrible the blocking was for Jones. Jones had the fastest time to pressure (both Taylor and DeVito enjoyed more time before pressure) due to a massive failure of the line to pick up stunts and blitzes, and he was the one without Thomas that allowed for the LT to completely whiff on his blind side blocks.
Also, in 2022, as the season wore on, Barkley was running less, and Jones was throwing more (something you didn't mention)
Between the factual evidence of what two coaches and GMs did and Wonderlic test, I see little reason to believe the claims of needing to dumb things down
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 11:29:48 AMChris,
Seeing ghosts because the Giants are guilty of malpractice in terms of getting the living crap beat out of him is different than not being intelligent and capable of processing. I think you and many fans really fail to appreciate just how terrible the blocking was for Jones. Jones had the fastest time to pressure (both Taylor and DeVito enjoyed more time before pressure) due to a massive failure of the line to pick up stunts and blitzes, and he was the one without Thomas that allowed for the LT to completely whiff on his blind side blocks.
Also, in 2022, as the season wore on, Barkley was running less, and Jones was throwing more (something you didn't mention)
Between the factual evidence of what two coaches and GMs did and Wonderlic test, I see little reason to believe the claims of needing to dumb things down
I gave you two presnap reads he failed to process in 2023. That came before any pressure was applied. On a white board I am sure he explained that just fine, yet on the field he clearly chocked. Completely failed to recognize to simple pre snap reads. So that exist outside of facts? I agree he is smart but it still happened even in week 1 when his PTSD didn't set in.
Furthermore, in game 1 vs Dallas last year, Jones was responsible for 5 of the 11 sacks and had the 7th most time of the QB's who played that day. At least 3 of those were his fault before the ball was even snapped. That throws out the line and pressure argument related to those.
Jones had the 2nd worst line in NFL history, no doubt!!! and Jones found a way to make them worse with his decision making and poor play.
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 11:53:27 AMI gave you two presnap reads he failed to process in 2023. That came before any pressure was applied. On a white board I am sure he explained that just fine, yet on the field he clearly chocked. Completely failed to recognize to simple pre snap reads. So that exist outside of facts? I agree he is smart but it still happened even in week 1 when his PTSD didn't set in.
Furthermore, in game 1 vs Dallas last year, Jones was responsible for 5 of the 11 sacks and had the 7th most time of the QB's who played that day. At least 3 of those were his fault before the ball was even snapped. That throws out the line and pressure argument related to those.
Jones had the 2nd worst line in NFL history, no doubt!!! and Jones found a way to make them worse with his decision making and poor play.
Chris,
Did you see the post I made a week or two ago where Daboll was very critical of the people claiming Jones was missing WRs etc because the people doing the reviews (in Daboll's opinion) lacked all the information about the play. The reviewer would point to a wide receiver (for example), but be unaware the receiver ran the wrong route and that the QB wouldn't be looking there.
When you listen to outsiders breaking down Giants "film" you have to appreciate they are doing so with maybe 80% of the information they need to be accurate
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 12:02:03 PMChris,
Did you see the post I made a week or two ago where Daboll was very critical of the people claiming Jones was missing WRs etc because the people doing the reviews (in Daboll's opinion) lacked all the information about the play. The reviewer would point to a wide receiver (for example), but be unaware the receiver ran the wrong route and that the QB wouldn't be looking there.
When you listen to outsiders breaking down Giants "film" you have to appreciate they are doing so with maybe 80% of the information they need to be accurate
I did but lets stay on topic.
Empty protection is a basic pre snap read, 6>5 or 7>5.
Certainly simple enough for a smart Duke grad who is a student of the game of football (both comments I complete agree with). Yet he failed to recognize it, as such failed to even look in the direction of it; resulting in sack instead of throwing to the hot read.
Maybe other intangibles exist within a QB's mental game that are not accounted for in a Wonderlic Test Score?
This is not assuming QB progressions or if a route was correct as was the case on your referenced topic.
Overhang pressure is an extremely basic pre snap read, this also has nothing to do with the Daboll's comment on wrong routes.
Ask Tricia, Nick Falato and Bobby Skinner if Daniel Jones is :
1- In buffalo how would you describe Daboll's offense on degrees of complexity ?
2- Are the Giants running the same system as Daboll ran in Buffalo?
3- In Daboll's first year did Jones run a simple or complicated offense?
4- In Daboll's year 2 was Jones asked to grow and take on more complexity and how did he handle it?
Get their answers and lets revisit the conversation.
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 12:41:50 PMI did but lets stay on topic.
Empty protection is a basic pre snap read, 6>5 or 7>5.
Certainly simple enough for a smart Duke grad who is a student of the game of football (both comments I complete agree with). Yet he failed to recognize it, as such failed to even look in the direction of it; resulting in sack instead of throwing to the hot read.
Maybe other intangibles exist within a QB's mental game that are not accounted for in a Wonderlic Test Score?
This is not assuming QB progressions or if a route was correct as was the case on your referenced topic.
Overhang pressure is an extremely basic pre snap read, this also has nothing to do with the Daboll's comment on wrong routes.
Ask Tricia, Nick Falato and Bobby Skinner if Daniel Jones is :
1- In buffalo how would you describe Daboll's offense on degrees of complexity ?
2- Are the Giants running the same system as Daboll ran in Buffalo?
3- In Daboll's first year did Jones run a simple or complicated offense?
4- In Daboll's year 2 was Jones asked to grow and take on more complexity and how did he handle it?
Get their answers and lets revisit the conversation.
Chris, when it comes to tape breakdown (particularly the Giants), I have absolute faith in only two outsiders. This is due to my point earlier about the limitations of outsiders to be fully aware of the facts.
Carl Banks- because he can talk to the coaches, and when he breaks down tape before or does not speak to coaches, he discusses the limitations of his conclusions.
Greg Cosell- The man is extremely careful in qualifying his opinions and clearly stating the limitations of his observations. Speaking of the man back in July 2023 he had this to say about Jones, ""I've heard really good things about how smart he is"
Pat doesn't do tape breakdowns, but I enjoy listening to and watching Bobby and Nick. However, I don't take what either person says in blind faith because I know they don't have all the information they need to draw completely accurate conclusions (they will be right more than they are wrong, but they simply can't be perfect).
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 01:43:50 PMChris, when it comes to tape breakdown (particularly the Giants), I have absolute faith in only two outsiders. This is due to my point earlier about the limitations of outsiders to be fully aware of the facts.
Carl Banks- because he can talk to the coaches, and when he breaks down tape before or does not speak to coaches, he discusses the limitations of his conclusions.
Greg Cosell- The man is extremely careful in qualifying his opinions and clearly stating the limitations of his observations. Speaking of the man back in July 2023 he had this to say about Jones, ""I've heard really good things about how smart he is"
Pat doesn't do tape breakdowns, but I enjoy listening to and watching Bobby and Nick. However, I don't take what either person says in blind faith because I know they don't have all the information they need to draw completely accurate conclusions (they will be right more than they are wrong, but they simply can't be perfect).
I'm not blindly listening to any individual and to remove them I specifically poised a question that exists in the absence of defensive pressure, absence of scheme and analyst interpretation.
Presnap reads, this is as simple as simple gets; overhang pressure and empty protection.
How does a smart Duke graduate, 5th year starter make incorrect elementary pre snap reads ?
Maybe, just maybe Wonderlic Index doesn't account for all the intangibles associated with intellect and the situations it is applied...
The consensus idea was an extra , but fair enough. Maybe we can ask Patricia to ask Banks
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 02:23:22 PMI'm not blindly listening to any individual and to remove them I specifically poised a question that exists in the absence of defensive pressure, absence of scheme and analyst interpretation.
Presnap reads, this is as simple as simple gets; overhang pressure and empty protection.
How does a smart Duke graduate, 5th year starter make incorrect elementary pre snap reads ?
Maybe, just maybe Wonderlic Index doesn't account for all the intangibles associated with intellect and the situations it is applied...
The consensus idea was an extra , but fair enough. Maybe we can ask Patricia to ask Banks
Chris,
Why do you think Greg Cosell was hearing how smart Daniel Jones is?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 11:15:32 AM@babywhales
Rather than just talking about people's opinions, we do have some factual data in the form of the Wonderlic test score. The Wonderlic measures the following:
Yes, the Wonderlic test measures processing speed. The Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT), also known as the Wonderlic test, is a psychometric assessment that assesses the test-taker's problem-solving skills and aptitude. The WPT has 50 questions and a time limit of 12 minutes. It assesses verbal, numerical, and spatial skills, and how quickly and well you can think. The WPT has four categories: General Knowledge, Verbal Reasoning, Abstract Reasoning, and Numerical Reasoning
The 2019 Wonderlic scores were leaked for QBs:
Quarterbacks
Ryan Finley: 43
Gardner Minshew: 42
Daniel Jones: 37
Easton Stick: 32
Clayton Thorson: 32
Trace McSorley: 31
Will Grier: 30
Brett Rypien: 28
Jarrett Stidham: 27
Drew Lock: 26
Tyree Jackson: 25
Dwayne Haskins: 25
Sean McGuire: 22
Kyler Murray: 20
Again, it's very hard to believe the claims that Jones needed things "dumb down"
Perhaps they should change the Wonderlic test so that you have to give your answers while 900 pounds of pass rusher are bearing down on you, LOL.
I'm not sure what that list is supposed to demonstrate as the QB closest to demonstrating that he is a franchise QB is at the bottom.
Also, historically there are guys who never achieved franchise status with very high scores (Fitzpatrick and Wentz) and guys who are Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers with mediocre scores (Favre and Mahomes).
As to Cosell's comment, he said he had heard he was smart. That is very different than saying something like: his play on the field shows mastery of a complex offense and excellent processing.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 02:29:08 PMChris,
Why do you think Greg Cosell was hearing how smart Daniel Jones is?
You have failed to address much of anything I have said. You have however responded with logical fallacy after logical fallacy.
You ignore direct questions.
I agree Jones is smart. I have said it over and over, he is very smart Duke grad. I simply elaborated that he makes very simple mistakes in key moments in the absence of pressure.
But you brought up Greg Cosell, Greg Cosell said of Jones after the 2022 season.
I feel like the spoon feed him (jones), watching the film I feel like they told him if you see an opening run. I (Greg) feel like they wanted him running more and throwing....
spoon feed is defined by
provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves. Greg's words based on his film review.
He goes on to say he watched tons of Buffalo film and Daboll has a vast intermediate and vertical attack in his offense he choose not to use with Jones.
I am glad you choose Greg Cosell as the approved expert. His 43 years with NFL films would certainly support that. Without the benefit of getting to ask him any follow up questions he is supporting everything I have been saying.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 01, 2024, 03:04:11 PMPerhaps they should change the Wonderlic test so that you have to give your answers while 900 pounds of pass rusher are bearing down on you, LOL.
I'm not sure what that list is supposed to demonstrate as the QB closest to demonstrating that he is a franchise QB is at the bottom.
Also, historically there are guys who never achieved franchise status with very high scores (Fitzpatrick and Wentz) and guys who are Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers with mediocre scores (Favre and Mahomes).
As to Cosell's comment, he said he had heard he was smart. That is very different than saying something like: his play on the field shows mastery of a complex offense and excellent processing.
Why I love Cosell is he is the epitome of intellectual honesty. Had the tape shown that the Giants had dumbed things down for Daniel Jones, he would have been sure to add that qualifier. Since he didn't, it's fair to assume the tape and what he heard wasn't at odds.
Some of the more prolific retired quarterback Wonderlic scores are here:
Eli Manning: 39
Steve Young: 33
Phillip Rivers: 30
Troy Aikman: 29
Matt Hasselback: 29
Peyton Manning: 28
Brett Favre: 22
Wonderlic scores of some of the more notable quarterbacks currently in the NFL include:
Ryan Fitzpatrick: 48
Carson Wentz: 40
Matthew Stafford: 38
Josh Allen: 37
Aaron Rodgers: 35
Ryan Tannehill: 34
Joe Burrow: 34
Tom Brady: 33
Kirk Cousins: 33
Russell Wilson: 28
Dak Prescott: 25
Ben Roethlisberger: 25
Patrick Mahomes: 24
https://wonderlictestpractice.com/quarterback-wonderlic-scores/
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:14:25 PMFunny thing Rich,
you have failed to address much if anything I have said. you have responded with logical fallacy after logical fallacy.
You ignore direct questions.
I agree Jones is smart. I have said it over and over, he is very smart Duke grad. I simply elaborated that he makes very simple mistakes in key moments in the absence of pressure.
But you brought up Greg Cosell, Greg Cosell said of Jones after the 2022 season.
I feel like the spoon feed him (jones), watching the film I feel like they told him if you see an opening run. I (Greg) feel like they wanted him running more and throwing....
spoon feed is defined by provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves.
Greg's words based on his film review.
He goes on to say he watched tons of Buffalo film and Daboll has a vast intermediate and vertical attack in his offense he choose not to use with Jones.
I am glad you choose Greg Cosell as the approved expert. His 43 years with NFL films would certainly support that. Without the benefit of getting to ask him any follow up questions he is supporting everything I have been saying.
Chris,
Let us be accurate here. When Cosell says he hears how smart Jones is, he refers to football intelligence, not general intelligence.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:16:10 PMChris,
Let us be accurate here. When Cosell says he hears how smart Jones is, he refers to football intelligence, not general intelligence.
Once again, avoiding the issue.
But to you point and i will say it again, Jones is smart and as I have stated in this thread that includes Jones being football smart. Jones is academic football smart though, white board smarts. Sitting talking shop, X's and O's with Gruden he clearly knows his stuff.
On the field, real time processing at the line pre snap and in the play smarts not so much. They are not the same.
If you produce anyone saying as much it will be the first time I have ever heard Jones's in game mental football processing is that of a smart QB. I would love to hear the reference if it is out there. The film does not show that nor has any film review I have ever heard of or heard refenced related to Jones.
It is crazy what happens when expectation and pressure change the reality for peoples thinking processes. With Jones there is clearly a difference.
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:28:21 PMOnce again, avoiding the issue.
But to you point and i will say it again, Jones is smart and as I have stated in this thread that includes Jones being football smart. Jones is academic football smart though, white board smarts. Sitting talking shop, X's and O's with Gruden he clearly knows his stuff.
On the field, real time processing at the line pre snap and in the play smarts not so much. They are not the same.
If you produce anyone saying as much it will be the first time I have ever heard Jones's in game mental football processing is that of a smart QB. I would love to hear the reference if it is out there. The film does not show that nor has any film review I have ever heard of or heard refenced related to Jones.
It is crazy what happens when expectation and pressure change the reality for peoples thinking processes. With Jones there is clearly a difference.
Imagine taking a time-based test. Now imagine 45% of the time,, 2 seconds after you start to read each question, you can smacked in the back with a 2 by 4. Do you think that might impact your test score?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:14:34 PMWhy I love Cosell is he is the epitome of intellectual honesty. Had the tape shown that the Giants had dumbed things down for Daniel Jones, he would have been sure to add that qualifier. Since he didn't, it's fair to assume the tape and what he heard wasn't at odds.
Greg Cosell said in 2022 Jones was spoon feed the offense.
To me spoon feed means, given the offense in increments as to reduce the need to think
What exactly do you think Cosell means by that?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:30:23 PMImagine taking a time-based test. Now imagine 45% of the time,, 2 seconds after you start to read each question, you can smacked in the back with a 2 by 4. Do you think that might impact your test score?
Agreed, but Jones makes mistakes without the pressure, before the play even starts. Presnap mistakes, you can not blame that on the line, on pressure or anyone else.
Now imagine a football smart QB who doesn't process information correctly in the face of pressure as well as the absence of pressure, stop imagining because that is Daniel Jones.
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:31:22 PMGreg Cosell said in 2022 Jones was spoon feed the offense.
To me spoon feed means, given the offense in increments as to reduce the need to think
What exactly do you think Cosell means by that?
I would need context and when I searched for it all I could find was this:
"At his core, he's a pocket quarterback who is at his best playing with timing and rhythm," Cosell said. "And he showed that pretty well on third down. He was very poised in the pocket, he knew where to go with the ball.
"In fact, I watched all of his third down drop backs. He was really efficient in the pocket, decisive with his reads and throws and the new coaching staff, that's probably pretty exciting for them. I think when you watch Jones' tape, you kind of feel like there's something to work with and we can make this guy a quarterback."
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/07/26/greg-cosell-offers-his-evaluation-new-york-giants-qb-daniel-jones/
Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:35:21 PMAgreed, but Jones makes mistakes without the pressure, before the play even starts. Can not blame that on the line or anyone else.
Now imagine a football smart QB who doesn't process information correctly in the face of pressure as well as the absence of pressure, stop imagining because that is Daniel Jones.
Once you are getting smacked with a two-by-four that frequently (and not knowing which questions you are going to get smacked), even when you aren't smacked, you will not be able to concentrate.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:14:34 PMSome of the more prolific retired quarterback Wonderlic scores are here:
Eli Manning: 39
Steve Young: 33
Phillip Rivers: 30
Troy Aikman: 29
Matt Hasselback: 29
Peyton Manning: 28
Brett Favre: 22
Wonderlic scores of some of the more notable quarterbacks currently in the NFL include:
Ryan Fitzpatrick: 48
Carson Wentz: 40
Matthew Stafford: 38
Josh Allen: 37
Aaron Rodgers: 35
Ryan Tannehill: 34
Joe Burrow: 34
Tom Brady: 33
Kirk Cousins: 33
Russell Wilson: 28
Dak Prescott: 25
Ben Roethlisberger: 25
Patrick Mahomes: 24
https://wonderlictestpractice.com/quarterback-wonderlic-scores/
That's the same list I looked at. For my money the correlation between quality QB play and Woonderlic score is pretty weak.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 01, 2024, 03:41:32 PMThat's the same list I looked at. For my money the correlation between quality QB play and Woonderlic score is pretty weak.
That isn't the correlation in question. The question is, could a QB who needs things dumbed down for him have a very high Wonderlic score?
A three year old article after a Covid year disparaging a now Backup QB.