(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLYStOBXoAIr_Sk?format=jpg&name=large)
https://x.com/SharpFootball/status/1780631274333380827
Ugh. :boooo:
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 12:39:17 PMUgh. :boooo:
Are you booing because the Giants drafted a WR or because of which WR they drafted?
It could happen that way. IMO the earliest likely team to bust his mock draft would be the Cardinals.
I think the Patriots will take a QB (don't know who ) and Vikings will trade up (with whom is a burning question... could be any of the Chargers, Patriots and Giants... in that order of likelihood).
I'm surprised to see Odunze ranked below Nabers, but it's actually a good guess that Odunze goes to the Bears.
Bob
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 12:39:17 PMUgh. :boooo:
I'm guessing you wanted to see a QB (probably Maye) to the Giants. Am I close? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 17, 2024, 12:43:05 PMIt could happen that way. IMO the earliest likely team to bust his mock draft would be the Cardinals.
I think the Patriots will take a QB (don't know who ) and Vikings will trade up (with whom is a burning question... could be any of the Chargers, Patriots and Giants... in that order of likelihood).
I'm surprised to see Odunze ranked below Nabers, but it's actually a good guess that Odunze goes to the Bears.
Bob
Poor Nabers, he is probably silently praying that the Chargers don't trade back and come to their senses and pick him to pair with Herbert, as opposed to the Giants who don't really have a quality QB. The Chargers can then find a decent OT in the second round. There are many good ones.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 17, 2024, 12:43:43 PMI'm guessing you wanted to see a QB (probably Maye) to the Giants. Am I close? Bob
I'm torn between Maye and JJ. I like Maye because he's bigger and more traditional but I think JJ has the greater football IQ, is more pro-ready, and has demonstrated better big game credentials. I lean JJ but all of these quarterbacks have big caution signs.
With Nabers I fear a replay of the OBJ situation where a team starving for leadership is suddenly taken over by a talented diva wide receiver.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 12:42:55 PMAre you booing because the Giants drafted a WR or because of which WR they drafted?
Both. But I see this to be a very realistic prediction since experience has taught me that the players we debate the most contentiously leading up to the draft are almost always gone before we pick.
The biggest reason I want a quarterback is because I'm ready to move on from Jones and I'm more than ready to STOP TALKING ABOUT HIM.
Whether or not most accurate, it does seem quite reasonable, and consistent with the broad consensus
Cheers!
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 12:56:43 PMI'm torn between Maye and JJ. I like Maye because he's bigger and more traditional but I think JJ has the greater football IQ, is more pro-ready, and has demonstrated better big game credentials. I lean JJ but all of these quarterbacks have big caution signs.
With Nabers I fear a replay of the OBJ situation where a team starving for leadership is suddenly taken over by a talented diva wide receiver.
They should be so lucky as to get OBJ 2.0.
I don't make a mock draft myself but if I did that top 5 is pretty how I would draw it up. I'm pretty sure the Vikings are going to move up ahead of the Giants to take JJ. The only variable is do they move up to 4 or 5 to do it. Wherever they don't end up is where Marvin Harrison goes. Then the Giants get their pick of Rome or Nabers at 6 unless somebody more desperate for a WR than them decides to make them an offer they can't refuse to move up (Hello, Buffalo!)
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 17, 2024, 02:05:04 PMThey should be so lucky as to get OBJ 2.0.
With the drama, I'll pass. But maybe we can still get Lil Wayne to make an appearance.
Are the personality things mentioned about Nabers real? If so, I would rather see Odunze. If those are just BS, then I am fine with either one.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 17, 2024, 02:17:05 PMAre the personality things mentioned about Nabers real? If so, I would rather see Odunze. If those are just BS, then I am fine with either one.
Who knows these days?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 17, 2024, 02:17:05 PMAre the personality things mentioned about Nabers real? If so, I would rather see Odunze. If those are just BS, then I am fine with either one.
I have heard some things about Nabers from reliable sources. I can't share what I heard, but knowing what I know, it's hard to say if the issues are enough to pass on a valuable player. I would need the NFL and Giants background check, and I would need to speak to the man firsthand to really say if the concerns raised are enough to pass on him in the draft.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 17, 2024, 02:17:05 PMAre the personality things mentioned about Nabers real? If so, I would rather see Odunze. If those are just BS, then I am fine with either one.
uconn: I got the same vibe, and the Giants will likely answer the question for us on draft day.
It's almost impossible they won't have a choice of the three WR's minus the one taken by the Cardinals.
If not, then the Giants will have a choice of two highly-rated (not by me) QB's available, which doubles the odds that the QB they're hoping will fall to them (if any) will be there.
Bob
PS. My assumption is that one of the first five picks this year will not be a QB or WR (likely Joe Alt), which as a last resort would mean that Alt will be there (Evan Neal's worst nightmare? lol).
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 02:24:25 PMI have heard some things about Nabers from reliable sources. I can't share what I heard, but knowing what I know, it's hard to say if the issues are enough to pass on a valuable player. I would need the NFL and Giants background check, and I would need to speak to the man firsthand to really say if the concerns raised are enough to pass on him in the draft.
Rich: If they do draft Nabers, IMO there are no issues that would have deterred one of us from taking him. Bob
This is the most reasonable mock I've seen to date. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 17, 2024, 12:43:43 PMI'm guessing you wanted to see a QB (probably Maye) to the Giants. Am I close? Bob
And yes, you were very close. You know how I think.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 02:24:25 PMI have heard some things about Nabers from reliable sources. I can't share what I heard, but knowing what I know, it's hard to say if the issues are enough to pass on a valuable player. I would need the NFL and Giants background check, and I would need to speak to the man firsthand to really say if the concerns raised are enough to pass on him in the draft.
From what I have seen most have Nabers graded higher. However, it doesn't look like he is graded significantly higher, so if there is any truth to those rumors or doubt about mental fit, I would go with the lower rated prospect.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 17, 2024, 12:19:30 PM(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLYStOBXoAIr_Sk?format=jpg&name=large)
https://x.com/SharpFootball/status/1780631274333380827
Where is Bo Nix? Maybe Ed can get his guy after all?
If the Giants want to move up their capital is significant more attractive than the Vikings. So if we want a guy we should be able to easily outbid the vikings.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 04:59:26 PMIf the Giants want to move up their capital is significant more attractive than the Vikings. So if we want a guy we should be able to easily outbid the vikings.
I agree. Cardinals lose out in Harrison and Nabers if they deal with Vikings. I still see the Vikings taking Penix at 11 or 23 while also drafting a CB in the first round. Penix to me might turn out to be the best of them all though not the best for for the Giants.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 17, 2024, 04:59:26 PMIf the Giants want to move up their capital is significant more attractive than the Vikings. So if we want a guy we should be able to easily outbid the vikings.
Do you think it's worth it to move up and take JJ or Maye if it costs next years' pick #1?
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 05:15:40 PMDo you think it's worth it to move up and take JJ or Maye if it costs next years' pick #1?
Absolutely if the GM is convinced the player can be a star at the position. The Giants did it with Eli. If they aren't proactive where does that leave them for the future? I would rather they get a QB at 6 but if they really love someone they need to go up and get, they should. The reward will exceed the risk of it works out. QB is that important and right now they need one.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 17, 2024, 03:24:02 PMFrom what I have seen most have Nabers graded higher. However, it doesn't look like he is graded significantly higher, so if there is any truth to those rumors or doubt about mental fit, I would go with the lower rated prospect.
And bear in mind these rankings and ratings have very little precision to them. My way of looking at it is if the grades are close they are essentially equal.
Quote from: katkavage on April 17, 2024, 05:44:27 PMAbsolutely if the GM is convinced the player can be a star at the position. The Giants did it with Eli. If they aren't proactive where does that leave them for the future? I would rather they get a QB at 6 but if they really love someone they need to go up and get, they should. The reward will exceed the risk of it works out. QB is that important and right now they need one.
I've thought about it a lot. That's where our GM becomes a hero on a bum out the door in a single maneuver. If Schoen stays put and lets the draft come to him, he's perhaps less exposed and Daboll's seat is warmer than his If he makes a very aggressive move to grab a quarterback, he's either a genius or a moron in a few short years. Go big or go home I guess, but I'd really prefer not to move up for any of these guys since none of them have Luck/Elway credentials.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 05:15:40 PMDo you think it's worth it to move up and take JJ or Maye if it costs next years' pick #1?
Yes, if they've done their homework and love the QB they're taking, and it's not just out of desperation at the position and trying to save their jobs.
No, if it's the above.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 17, 2024, 05:15:40 PMDo you think it's worth it to move up and take JJ or Maye if it costs next years' pick #1?
I think that this year's 1 and 2 plus next years 1 is absolutely worth it if they think they have a guy. If the Qb turns into a top 10 Qb then it was a steal.
At this point I would rather take a chance than to continue how we have. With the rules favoring offense you either have a GUY or you aren't competing.
I'm going to shut up about all this..some may applaud. Simply scenariored out. Oooh fa. Don't trade up is my thought with a team with holes everywhere.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 17, 2024, 08:45:22 PMYes, if they've done their homework and love the QB they're taking, and it's not just out of desperation at the position and trying to save their jobs.
No, if it's the above.
Every highly drafted QB that turned out to be a bust had a team that did their homework and loved him. Just sayin'.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 17, 2024, 11:12:30 PMEvery highly drafted QB that turned out to be a bust had a team that did their homework and loved him. Just sayin'.
That's a reason not to do it. Okay? :surrender:
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 17, 2024, 11:12:30 PMEvery highly drafted QB that turned out to be a bust had a team that did their homework and loved him. Just sayin'.
Like say Daniel Jones for example.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 05:39:29 AMLike say Daniel Jones for example.
Don't think the Giants gave up draft picks for Jones. And so I guess we can put Schoen in the same category as Gettleman after two years? I guess it will always be hopeless for the Giants in hiring GM's who can make 100 percent accurate draft picks. It's a risk business.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on April 17, 2024, 03:25:51 PMWhere is Bo Nix? Maybe Ed can get his guy after all?
Bob,
The idea of grabbing a QB that falls to round two (of the top 6) is an interesting one. My only issue is there is no way to be sure that will happen, so you can't count on it.
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 07:31:09 AMDon't think the Giants gave up draft picks for Jones. And so I guess we can put Schoen in the same category as Gettleman after two years? I guess it will always be hopeless for the Giants in hiring GM's who can make 100 percent accurate draft picks. It's a risk business.
Really? That's what you took away from what I said?
Not trying to be a stick in the mud or rain on anyone's parade, but to address the original post, there is no such thing as an accurate mock, let alone "the most accurate". And trying to bless someone's mock before the draft as "#1 most accurate" is beyond silly. Like picking the "most accurate March Madness bracket" before a single basketball is dribbled (note: the mathematical odds of getting a perfect bracket are 1 in 9.2 quintillion; the equivalent of winning Powerball several times in a couple of years)
Everything we think...will radically change on draft day. The top 3 or 4 picks are likely to be right (but could be a different order), but after that...it's one surprise after another
Brugler did a 7 round mock. How would you feel about this whole for our boys in blue?
1 (6). Malik Nabers, WR, LSU
2 (47). Jaden Hicks, S, Washington State
3 (70). Trey Benson, RB, Florida State
4 (107). Michael Pratt, QB, Tulane
5 (166). Josh Newton, CB, TCU
6 (183). Justin Eboigbe, DL, Alabama
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 08:29:15 AMReally? That's what you took away from what I said?
Explain
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 09:38:35 AMBrugler did a 7 round mock. How would you feel about this whole for our boys in blue?
1 (6). Malik Nabers, WR, LSU
2 (47). Jaden Hicks, S, Washington State
3 (70). Trey Benson, RB, Florida State
4 (107). Michael Pratt, QB, Tulane
5 (166). Josh Newton, CB, TCU
6 (183). Justin Eboigbe, DL, Alabama
Okay, but unless Pratt turns out to be better than Davis Webb, the Giants still will need a quality QB going forward.
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 09:42:16 AMOkay, but unless Pratt turns out to be better than Davis Webb, the Giants still will need a quality QB going forward.
Assuming Daniel Jones was being fully truthful when he said last season's neck injury was just a routine stinger, it wouldn't surprise me if the Giants treat 2024 as another prove-it year for Daniel Jones.
Pratt, from what I have seen, is more of a low-cost solid backup QB than a future franchise starting QB. If Pratt develops the team can same some nice money by not having to sign expensive veteran backups.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 17, 2024, 08:45:22 PMYes, if they've done their homework and love the QB they're taking, and it's not just out of desperation at the position and trying to save their jobs.
No, if it's the above.
Historically the track record for teams trading up into the top 5 for a QB has been terrible. I suspect there are two reasons for that. First, to make the trade, you need a team that doesn't think the QB is a future high-end starter (since most teams in the top 5 of the draft don't have an elite QB), so they are willing to trade down. Second, the draft capital spent moving up into the top 5 means that the team's 3 Ps of QB support (see the thread I started about that) is likely to suffer and make it far more difficult to develop the QB that is drafted.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 09:45:04 AMAssuming Daniel Jones was being fully truthful when he said last season's neck injury was just a routine stinger, it would surprise me if the Giants treat 2024 as another prove-it year for Daniel Jones.
Pratt, from what I have seen, is more of a low-cost solid backup QB than a future franchise starting QB. If Pratt develops the team can same some nice money by not having to sign expensive veteran backups.
True about Pratt but can you really think or believe at this point that Jones can be more than a game manager? His ceiling is a poor man's Ryan Tannehill. Do you think his slow processing will suddenly improve after five years? Injuries are just a part of his issues.
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 09:50:23 AMTrue about Pratt but can you really think or believe at this point that Jones can be more than a game manager? His ceiling is a poor man's Ryan Tannehill. Do you think his slow processing will suddenly improve after five years? Injuries are just a part of his issues.
I think the claims of DJ being a slow processor are more the result of fans claiming they see that on film (they don't) rather than a reflection of reality. Unless you are at Greg Cosell level tape grinder (with access to the full 22), the average (and even above average fan) is not capable of discerning processing speed. I would also suggest that if fans' claims about the slow processing were true, Schoen would have never signed DJ to the contract they did.
My biggest concern with DJ moving forward is that the Giants did such a horrible job protecting him over the years he is starting to see ghosts. It's possible that DJ's ACL tear may prove to be a blessing in disguise because it gave him some time off from the beatings, and perhaps he will recover from his previous trauma. That is a big question in my mind. I'm not sure how DJ will react when he starts getting hit again. So traumas become ingrained, and I don't care how tough you are; they just keep impacting you.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 09:38:35 AMBrugler did a 7 round mock. How would you feel about this whole for our boys in blue?
1 (6). Malik Nabers, WR, LSU
2 (47). Jaden Hicks, S, Washington State
3 (70). Trey Benson, RB, Florida State
4 (107). Michael Pratt, QB, Tulane
5 (166). Josh Newton, CB, TCU
6 (183). Justin Eboigbe, DL, Alabama
The Giants already have a back-up. If they want to waste a spot on a 3rd QB - give it to DeVito.
There's no justification for wasting a 4th round pick on a QB that isn't contending to start.
The Giants need to get much better at identifying role players in rounds 3-5 rather than wasting them on "projects" ala Peart or 2nd/3rd string QBs.
Draft a QB early or not at all would be my preference.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 09:58:23 AMI think the claims of DJ being a slow processor are more the result of fans claiming they see that on film (they don't) rather than a reflection of reality. Unless you are at Greg Cosell level tape grinder (with access to the full 22), the average (and even above average fan) is not capable of discerning processing speed. I would also suggest that if fans' claims about the slow processing were true, Schoen would have never signed DJ to the contract they did.
My biggest concern with DJ moving forward is that the Giants did such a horrible job protecting him over the years he is starting to see ghosts. It's possible that DJ's ACL tear may prove to be a blessing in disguise because it gave him some time off from the beatings, and perhaps he will recover from his previous trauma. That is a big question in my mind. I'm not sure how DJ will react when he starts getting hit again. So traumas become ingrained, and I don't care how tough you are; they just keep impacting you.
Much in the same vein as fans can't comment on processing speed. I don't think any fan can comprehensively say he's seeing ghosts. Has any staffer or player come out and said this?
If they have, I've missed it.
Jones gets all the excuses under the sun. In 7 days, we will know what the Giants think. He's either good enough for next year or he's not.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 10:03:01 AMJones gets all the excuses under the sun.
With many fans, it's the complete opposite. Those fans will never acknowledge the challenging situations Jones has had to deal with. Those fans expect Jones to perform literal miracles.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 10:00:22 AMThe Giants already have a back-up. If they want to waste a spot on a 3rd QB - give it to DeVito.
There's no justification for wasting a 4th round pick on a QB that isn't contending to start.
The Giants need to get much better at identifying role players in rounds 3-5 rather than wasting them on "projects" ala Peart or 2nd/3rd string QBs.
Draft a QB early or not at all would be my preference.
I imagine the wisdom of drafting someone like Pratt depends on how the Giants view DeVito. If the Giants don't view DeVito as becoming a high-level backup, then the 3rd QB spot is wide open, and when the season is over, they let Lock walk saving his $5 million salary cap hit (which could be higher if he meets performance incentives)
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 10:05:34 AMWith many fans, it's the complete opposite. Those fans will never acknowledge the challenging situations Jones has had to deal with. Those fans expect Jones to perform literal miracles.
And the converse is also true for his ardent supporters. They simply cannot admit that the re-signing was a mistake for a multitude of reasons - be it supporting cast not there, production or the fact he's injury prone.
Either way, he will have our answer on the franchise QB in 7 days or 12 months.
There's no need to go around in circles.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 09:58:23 AMI think the claims of DJ being a slow processor are more the result of fans claiming they see that on film (they don't) rather than a reflection of reality. Unless you are at Greg Cosell level tape grinder (with access to the full 22), the average (and even above average fan) is not capable of discerning processing speed. I would also suggest that if fans' claims about the slow processing were true, Schoen would have never signed DJ to the contract they did.
My biggest concern with DJ moving forward is that the Giants did such a horrible job protecting him over the years he is starting to see ghosts. It's possible that DJ's ACL tear may prove to be a blessing in disguise because it gave him some time off from the beatings, and perhaps he will recover from his previous trauma. That is a big question in my mind. I'm not sure how DJ will react when he starts getting hit again. So traumas become ingrained, and I don't care how tough you are; they just keep impacting you.
My take FWIW, is that the coaches analyze everything, and then DJ does what he's told to do based on the play called from the sideline. He isn't Roger Staubach calling plays in the huddle on his own while Landry watches to see what he decides to do. Giants coaches know DJ's limitations, and they also know the limitations of the OL and receivers. And they call the shots based on their own analysis and what they think will work. If DJ was a loose canon who did what he felt like doing instead of sticking to the play calling, he would have been cut a long time ago
I have no worries that DJ can't read the defense or that he processes slow. He's balancing doing what exactly what he's told, while usually running for his life...and don't forget, he has been told to NOT THROW INTERCEPTIONS after a bad start of turning the ball over
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 18, 2024, 10:34:55 AMMy take FWIW, is that the coaches analyze everything, and then DJ does what he's told to do based on the play called from the sideline. He isn't Roger Staubach calling plays in the huddle on his own while Landry watches to see what he decides to do. Giants coaches know DJ's limitations, and they also know the limitations of the OL and receivers. And they call the shots based on their own analysis and what they think will work. If DJ was a loose canon who did what he felt like doing instead of sticking to the play calling, he would have been cut a long time ago
I have no worries that DJ can't read the defense or that he processes slow. He's balancing doing what exactly what he's told, while usually running for his life...and don't forget, he has been told to NOT THROW INTERCEPTIONS after a bad start of turning the ball over
Ric,
The interception issue is an underappreciated one, in my opinion. QBs are instructed by the coaching staff how much risk the coaches are willing to tolerate. If a QB is told to be extra careful it will tend to slow down their progression and also reduce the depth of target
I think he processes fine. I dont think he trusts his protection which he should not given how bad it was but that lack of trust is also making him unwilling to take shots down the field. The latter is why I think the Giants need to move on from him.
Quote from: Philosophers on April 18, 2024, 10:53:16 AMI think he processes fine. I dont think he trusts his protection which he should not given how bad it was but that lack of trust is also making him unwilling to take shots down the field. The latter is why I think the Giants need to move on from him.
If the Giants don't draft a QB, it will be interesting to see if Jones (likely with the help of the team psychologist) is able to move past the trauma and learn to trust his protection. If not, we may see Lock playing more this season.
Or that Lock outplays him either in pre-season or starts the season like a house on fire.
Granted it's unlikely for a journeyman to do so but it's not beyond the realm of possibility either.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 18, 2024, 10:34:55 AMMy take FWIW, is that the coaches analyze everything, and then DJ does what he's told to do based on the play called from the sideline. He isn't Roger Staubach calling plays in the huddle on his own while Landry watches to see what he decides to do. Giants coaches know DJ's limitations, and they also know the limitations of the OL and receivers. And they call the shots based on their own analysis and what they think will work. If DJ was a loose canon who did what he felt like doing instead of sticking to the play calling, he would have been cut a long time ago
I have no worries that DJ can't read the defense or that he processes slow. He's balancing doing what exactly what he's told, while usually running for his life...and don't forget, he has been told to NOT THROW INTERCEPTIONS after a bad start of turning the ball over
These are the reasons I put him into the game manager category.
Plays will not always develop the way they are drawn up on the board. There's a lot of improvisation that happens on every play. The only improv DJ does is to cut and run.
I need my QB to understand the playbook but also know how to deviate from the called play and make sh*t happen.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 10:15:57 AMAnd the converse is also true for his ardent supporters. They simply cannot admit that the re-signing was a mistake for a multitude of reasons - be it supporting cast not there, production or the fact he's injury prone.
Either way, he will have our answer on the franchise QB in 7 days or 12 months.
There's no need to go around in circles.
https://x.com/TalkinGiants/status/1780999156137361800
https://x.com/TheGiantsWire/status/1780997622553047304
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 05:12:41 AMThat's a reason not to do it. Okay? :surrender:
No. But it's a reason to reign in faith that because the team does their due diligence and loves a guy he will end up being 'the guy'.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 12:57:25 PMhttps://x.com/TalkinGiants/status/1780999156137361800
https://x.com/TheGiantsWire/status/1780997622553047304
There's a saying in England we use for politicians - don't believe anything until it's been officially denied.
Actions speak louder than words. In free agency we added a guy who can start a few if needed but is not the threat that eg Russell Wilson would be. In a week we will see if we draft a QB R1. If so, DJ is on the way out. If not, DJ is the projected starter even if we take a QB day 2 or 3. We will rehash the same old arguments on here come what may'
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 01:23:27 PMThere's a saying in England we use for politicians - don't believe anything until it's been officially denied.
Furthermore, it's smoke and mirrors season. Why show your hand 7 days before the draft.
But people can swallow up whatever they want. Nothing will change opinions until either a) they draft a QB or b) make a decision next year.
Quote from: londonblue on April 18, 2024, 01:26:02 PMActions speak louder than words. In free agency we added a guy who can start a few if needed but is not the threat that eg Russell Wilson would be. In a week we will see if we draft a QB R1. If so, DJ is on the way out. If not, DJ is the projected starter even if we take a QB day 2 or 3. We will rehash the same old arguments on here come what may'
Neil,
I think if the Giants do go QB in round one, it will be 2022 all over again. The Giants will have Jones on yet another one year prove it situation.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 01:27:43 PMFurthermore, it's smoke and mirrors season. Why show your hand 7 days before the draft.
But people can swallow up whatever they want. Nothing will change opinions until either a) they draft a QB or b) make a decision next year.
One thing, so far, is that, unlike Gettleman, we haven't witnessed Joe Schoen outright lie. Schoen tends to speak in a manner that makes him difficult to pin down (most of the time) rather than using Gettleman's ham-handed, just lie-to-the-people approach.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 12:57:25 PMhttps://x.com/TalkinGiants/status/1780999156137361800
https://x.com/TheGiantsWire/status/1780997622553047304
Words < Actions
Giants pick RD 1 QB = Buyer's Remorse
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 01:29:35 PMOne thing, so far, is that, unlike Gettleman, we haven't witnessed Joe Schoen outright lie. Schoen tends to speak in a manner that makes him difficult to pin down (most of the time) rather than using Gettleman's ham-handed, just lie-to-the-people approach.
I guess we will wait and see.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 12:57:25 PMhttps://x.com/TalkinGiants/status/1780999156137361800
https://x.com/TheGiantsWire/status/1780997622553047304
Given there's a better than average chance Jones is starting for his team next year due to a lack of other options.... he can't exactly say "yea, that was a dumb decision to sign him but we're stuck with him now without any options to get away"
If they draft a QB it'll be a pretty clear indication of buyers remorse. Just the fact that he has already said they're looking at all the QBs is a pretty clear indication of it. Nobody expected Jones to regress as much as he did in year 2 in the system. But he did. And now they need to get away from him as quickly as possible which means shortly after the 2024 season ends.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 18, 2024, 01:35:16 PMGiven there's a better than average chance Jones is starting for his team next year due to a lack of other options.... he can't exactly say "yea, that was a dumb decision to sign him but we're stuck with him now without any options to get away"
If they draft a QB it'll be a pretty clear indication of buyers remorse. Just the fact that he has already said they're looking at all the QBs is a pretty clear indication of it. Nobody expected Jones to regress as much as he did in year 2 in the system. But he did. And now they need to get away from him as quickly as possible which means shortly after the 2024 season ends.
The part in bold is where fans differ from what is being reported in terms of how the Giants are thinking. The Giants see Jones having played only 3 full games under the worst possible conditions and are unlikely to significantly change their opinion on Jones, while the fans who previously down on Jones declare those same 3 full games as proof they were right about all their criticism of Jones. Don't forget there was also DJ's record-setting performance in the second half of the Cards game
Obviously, the injury issues are a different matter, and to that end, the Giants have done an excellent job muddying the water. Jones claimed his neck injury last season was just a routine stinger. Was Jones being completely honest, or was he downplaying his medical issues to help the Giants keep their cards close to the vest?
Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 01:31:58 PMWords < Actions
Giants pick RD 1 QB = Buyer's Remorse
The fun thing about that point is it's a no-lose situation for those claiming the Giants have buyer's remorse. After all, the inverse won't prove them wrong. They can clam they were right in either outcome since we can't preclude a lack of drafting a QB is proof of a lack of interest in drafting a QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 01:28:02 PMNeil,
I think if the Giants do go QB in round one, it will be 2022 all over again. The Giants will have Jones on yet another one year prove it situation.
If we take a QB in R1 Jones will have a year to earn himself a decent trade to a team where he will get a chance to compete because unless he either turns into peak Steve Young or takes a massive contract restructure and pay cut he is not here in 2025.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 01:42:30 PMThe fun thing about that point is it's a no-lose situation for those claiming the Giants have buyer's remorse. After all, the inverse won't prove them wrong. They can clam they were right in either outcome since we can't preclude a lack of drafting a QB is proof of a lack of interest in drafting a QB.
True... they may try to make a move for the guy they want and it doesn't work out. Initial point still holds true: they have buyer's remorse.
Until Jones is a former Giant, he will continue to bite Schoen and Daboll in the tush. Call it Gettleman's Giant Gift.
Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 01:48:52 PMTrue... they may try to make a move for the guy they want and it doesn't work out. Initial point still holds true: they have buyer's remorse.
Until Jones is a former Giant, he will continue to bite Schoen and Daboll in the tush. Call it Gettleman's Giant Gift.
If Jones plays in 2024 and plays well, are we still calling it "Gettleman's Giant Gift" ;)
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 01:42:30 PMThe fun thing about that point is it's a no-lose situation for those claiming the Giants have buyer's remorse. After all, the inverse won't prove them wrong. They can clam they were right in either outcome since we can't preclude a lack of drafting a QB is proof of a lack of interest in drafting a QB.
I think if they don't take a QB, and one is available, it is an indication the team is fine with Jones. I can't fathom that being the case. Either half of that equation. But that would indeed prove they don't have any buyer's remorse. If they do draft a QB I think unequivocally it proves that they do and I'm not sure an argument can be made otherwise.
Whether the Giants want to say he played in 3 games in miserable circumstances or not his own play when he had plays to be made was awful. Nobody will publicly smear the guy. 1) he seems like a perfectly nice and hard working player that genuinely wishes he could be better than he is. 2) he's very likely to be starting next season no matter what happens. So they will continue to jump through every hoop they can to make excuses for what anybody that was paying attention could clearly see which is: Jones ain't it. Might turn into a nice backup that floats from team to team for a few years but if he's your #1 guy you're not going anywhere.
Yes that 2nd half against Arizona was other-wordly. But then he has the rest of the season that he had and the whole thing is wasted. The biggest problem with Jones is precisely the fact that he can have a half like that! If he was a disaster all the time like Zach Wilson we could all point to him and say I don't know much but I know that guy sucks and he shows us just how much he sucks every time he takes a snap. Jones is just not terrible enough to win 6-8 games a year but likely not more than that which leave the Giants in this QB hell.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 01:50:24 PMIf Jones plays in 2024 and plays well, are we still calling it "Gettleman's Giant Gift" ;)
Yes... it will keep us in QB Hell.
Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 01:56:58 PMYes... it will keep us in QB Hell.
It shouldn't though because as much as people try to act like Jones was magnificent in 2022, he wasn't the 3200 yards and 15 tds show that. So if he duplicates 2022 then in my eyes it's even more obvious we need a change. A 6th year Qb that can't throw for 4,000 yards when 4th rd picks come into this league every year and do it with less talent should be alarming.
If you think the naysayers on DJ are old and tiresome, wait until a year down the road and a QB like Bo Nix or Pennix, or Pratt turns out to be the second coming of Herbert...or worse, we pass on JJ and he becomes a star like Tom Brady. I can't imagine this board if DJ struggles and one of the QBs we passed on jettisons into a superstar. It won't be fun for the next decade with all the "We could have had Nix (or some other QB who grows hair on his chest and becomes a stud franchise QB). Even worse, we trade DJ, draft JJ, and DJ turns into the second coming of Brady with a good team around him and JJ sucks. Oh what fun that will be :crazy:
Ahhh...the good old, "time will tell" must be adhered to here. Draft can't get here soon enough
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 02:14:27 PMIt shouldn't though because as much as people try to act like Jones was magnificent in 2022, he wasn't the 3200 yards and 15 tds show that. So if he duplicates 2022 then in my eyes it's even more obvious we need a change. A 6th year Qb that can't throw for 4,000 yards when 4th rd picks come into this league every year and do it with less talent should be alarming.
Jones outplayed the 3 Ps of support, which is really what one expects a franchise QB to do. Coaching was adequate to above average, but protection was below average, and playmakers (in terms of receivers) were non-existent. Despite that, in terms of the quality stats, Jones was top 10 to 12, in that range.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 18, 2024, 02:15:47 PMIf you think the naysayers on DJ are old and tiresome, wait until a year down the road and a QB like Bo Nix or Pennix, or Pratt turns out to be the second coming of Herbert...or worse, we pass on JJ and he becomes a star like Tom Brady. I can't imagine this board if DJ struggles and one of the QBs we passed on jettisons into a superstar. It won't be fun for the next decade with all the "We could have had Nix (or some other QB who grows hair on his chest and becomes a stud franchise QB). Even worse, we trade DJ, draft JJ, and DJ turns into the second coming of Brady with a good team around him and JJ sucks. Oh what fun that will be :crazy:
Ahhh...the good old, "time will tell" must be adhered to here. Draft can't get here soon enough
Ric,
How many of the Jones critics were also the same people who were advocating for the Giants to draft Sam Darnold?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 02:14:27 PMIt shouldn't though because as much as people try to act like Jones was magnificent in 2022, he wasn't the 3200 yards and 15 tds show that. So if he duplicates 2022 then in my eyes it's even more obvious we need a change. A 6th year Qb that can't throw for 4,000 yards when 4th rd picks come into this league every year and do it with less talent should be alarming.
I like Schoen but he's been burned by Jones twice and it's clear that Mara is still providing a negative influence on the roster.
I truly feel that after the playoff win against Minny, Mara, in some way, shape, or form, let Schoen know that he wanted to get a deal done to keep Jones. Some sort of compromise was made to give Schoen a reasonable out after the second year.
If Jones happens to lead this team to another playoff victory, Schoen will have a helluva time ditching Jones.
Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:25:47 PMI like Schoen but he's been burned by Jones twice and it's clear that Mara is still providing a negative influence on the roster.
I truly feel that after the playoff win against Minny, Mara, in some way, shape, or form, let Schoen know that he wanted to get a deal done to keep Jones. Some sort of compromise was made to give Schoen a reasonable out after the second year.
If Jones happens to lead this team to another playoff victory, Schoen will have a helluva time ditching Jones.
After five years, I've seen more than enough. Jones is not horrible. He's not a bust like Zach Wilson. But he's not gonna get you where you want to go either. His ceiling is maybe a 15 ranking. He can't go higher than that and if the Giants keep the status quo, there will be rookies that will be ranked higher than Jones after next year. And yes he says he had a stinger last year. And a torn ACL, which for him to even get to 100 percent will be October at the earliest. As a Giant fan, I hope for better. Simple as that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 02:18:02 PMJones outplayed the 3 Ps of support, which is really what one expects a franchise QB to do. Coaching was adequate to above average, but protection was below average, and playmakers (in terms of receivers) were non-existent. Despite that, in terms of the quality stats, Jones was top 10 to 12, in that range.
Out of interest, what was Barkley's stats and productions through the first 8 weeks of '22.
Whilst he doesn't fit into your 3 P's, I suspect he was pretty darn good.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 03:32:26 PMOut of interest, what was Barkley's stats and productions through the first 8 weeks of '22.
Whilst he doesn't fit into your 3 P's, I suspect he was pretty darn good.
The problem with Barkley is he ran well, but he was terrible as a receiver
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 09:40:27 AMExplain
OK. All I'm saying is that should the Giants give up substantial capital to move up and take a quarterback like JJ, then the legacy of Schoen is going to reside almost solely on that move, similar to how Gettleman is linked to Jones. If Jones had turned out to be a superstar, Gettleman would be a hero. I was more making an observation about the situation, not advocating for what Schoen should or shouldn't do. That's why I asked if it would be worth it. Rest assured the folks that say "absolutely" will be there to roast Schoen if he drafts the wrong guy and gives up the farm to get him. That's just the reality of it. But who knows, maybe the folks that roast Jones today will blame the offensive line for the would be failures of his successor. Fandom is always an interesting analysis of the human condition.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 03:34:24 PMThe problem with Barkley is he ran well, but he was terrible as a receiver
Do you really think he was "terrible?"
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 03:31:23 PMAfter five years, I've seen more than enough. Jones is not horrible. He's not a bust like Zach Wilson. But he's not gonna get you where you want to go either. His ceiling is maybe a 15 ranking. He can't go higher than that and if the Giants keep the status quo, there will be rookies that will be ranked higher than Jones after next year. And yes he says he had a stinger last year. And a torn ACL, which for him to even get to 100 percent will be October at the earliest. As a Giant fan, I hope for better. Simple as that.
I get it.
He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 03:37:12 PMDo you really think he was "terrible?"
I think so. It's not just me, PFF gave Barkley a 58.3 receiving grade for 2022, which is pretty bad when you consider they start out with a 60.0
Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:39:43 PMI get it.
He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.
The best he gives you is playing up to the xs and os. The only time he gives you big play ability is with his running, which further exposes himself to injuries. He pocket awareness is poor too. He gets surprised by the back end pressure way too often.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 03:44:59 PMI think so. It's not just me, PFF gave Barkley a 58.3 receiving grade for 2022, which is pretty bad when you consider they start out with a 60.0
But is he a bad route runner or can he just not catch? I never liked the way he was used as a receiver. Way too many third downs where he was expected to catch a dump off and then run over a guy or make a guy miss, often when everyone in North America knew he was getting the ball.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 03:50:54 PMBut is he a bad route runner or can he just not catch? I never liked the way he was used as a receiver. Way too many third downs where he was expected to catch a dump off and then run over a guy or make a guy miss, often when everyone in North America knew he was getting the ball.
I think the best way to describe it is that Barkley fights the ball rather than catching it (he wasn't like that in his early years in the league). Because he is fighting it rather than catching it, his YAC is negatively impacted.
Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:39:43 PMI get it.
He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.
That right there. Unless you are the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens, it's just not gonna happen with Jones. Go through his career and look how many games where he put the team on his shoulders and beat a real good team. (And I can hear the chorus of excuses blowing in the wind).
Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 04:00:56 PMThat right there. Unless you are the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens, it's just not gonna happen with Jones. Go through his career and look how many games where he put the team on his shoulders and beat a real good team. (And I can hear the chorus of excuses blowing in the wind).
Here's a hypothetical, because why not?:
How do you all think Jones would perform if he were swapped with Brock Purdy? I continually here that Purdy is nothing special and he just quarterbacks a loaded offense.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 02:14:27 PMIt shouldn't though because as much as people try to act like Jones was magnificent in 2022, he wasn't the 3200 yards and 15 tds show that. So if he duplicates 2022 then in my eyes it's even more obvious we need a change. A 6th year Qb that can't throw for 4,000 yards when 4th rd picks come into this league every year and do it with less talent should be alarming.
If that's the case we should definitely trade down, although I don't know who you're talking about.
In 2023 3 QBs were taken in the 4th round. Only one played and he threw for 2200 yards.
In 2022 1 QB was taken in the 4th round and in 2 seasons threw for 2000 yards combined.
In 2021 1 QB was taken in the 4th round and he has 135 career passing yards.
Did I misunderstand your statement? Hyperbole? Color me confused.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 04:04:12 PMHere's a hypothetical, because why not?:
How do you all think Jones would perform if he were swapped with Brock Purdy? I continually here that Purdy is nothing special and he just quarterbacks a loaded offense.
Purdy displays much better awareness than Jones. He is a better QB, talent around him aside.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 04:04:12 PMHere's a hypothetical, because why not?:
How do you all think Jones would perform if he were swapped with Brock Purdy? I continually here that Purdy is nothing special and he just quarterbacks a loaded offense.
I think better than he has with the Giants, but not as good as Purdy. We saw another high 1st rounder not excel even with that cast. I dont see Purdy as anything special at this point, but I think he is at least a match for his team and certainly in the top 12 of the league.
I get your point about moving up for the QB and that being Schoen's legacy. I think to some extent it works the other way as well. If they don't draft a QB then signing Jones could be his legacy.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 18, 2024, 04:16:51 PMIf that's the case we should definitely trade down, although I don't know who you're talking about.
In 2023 3 QBs were taken in the 4th round. Only one played and he threw for 2200 yards.
In 2022 1 QB was taken in the 4th round and in 2 seasons threw for 2000 yards combined.
In 2021 1 QB was taken in the 4th round and he has 135 career passing yards.
Did I misunderstand your statement? Hyperbole? Color me confused.
My bad Howell was a 5th round pick not a 4th rd pick. Davis mills was a 3rd rd pick. Still the point remains that those guys coming in and putting up equal or better production on eqally bad teams is alarming.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 07:35:17 PMMy bad Howell was a 5th round pick not a 4th rd pick. Davis mills was a 3rd rd pick. Still the point remains that those guys coming in and putting up equal or better production on eqally bad teams is alarming.
Still, every year???
No chance at a QB
2nd best WR
Hey, at least we really stuffed the eagles right?
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Quote from: Just_jimmy on April 19, 2024, 03:36:32 AMNo chance at a QB
2nd best WR
Hey, at least we really stuffed the eagles right?
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I will say this: I think the top-3 elite WR prospects in this draft are all better than Devante Smith, the WR the Eagles snaked Gettleman and NYG from getting.