Baseball rules

[GIANTS1]

im going to say live ball with no confidence. after some research i cheated. the ball should be dead. good question again Len

[LennG]

Since both of us, the umpires had never really seen a play like that, we got together and used our best judgment and knowledge to make the call.

Since the rulebook says that if any pitched ball strikes the batter, it is a dead ball, regardless if it hits the ground first, that is what we used to make the ruling. The batter swinging at it makes no difference.
(If a better, say, squares to bunt and he offers at the pitch and in doing so, the pitch hits him, a strike is called as he did offer at the ball, and being hit has no relevance except making the ball dead)

Since it is now a dead ball, the runner had to return to 1st base, as that was his position at the time of the pitch.

[Sem]

Since both of us, the umpires had never really seen a play like that, we got together and used our best judgment and knowledge to make the call.

Since the rulebook says that if any pitched ball strikes the batter, it is a dead ball, regardless if it hits the ground first, that is what we used to make the ruling. The batter swinging at it makes no difference.
(If a better, say, squares to bunt and he offers at the pitch and in doing so, the pitch hits him, a strike is called as he did offer at the ball, and being hit has no relevance except making the ball dead)

Since it is now a dead ball, the runner had to return to 1st base, as that was his position at the time of the pitch.

Len, can you explain the difference in this scenario vs. your first example (post #1 in this thread)? In both instances there was a runner on 1st base "at the time of the pitch." Also in both instances the runner on base was going with the pitch. Yet in the first instance the runner was awarded 2nd base as a result of the dead ball, but in this second instance the runner had to go back to 1st base as a result of the dead ball. I'm a bit confused.

[LennG]

As best as I can.

In the first scenario, the ball went into dead area as a result of the defense. (Pitcher/catcher). The runner, who was on base is awarded one base regardless if he was running on the pitch. It is like any ball, on any play, going into dead area, if there are runners on, there have to be bases awarded. In this instance, the runner WAS going on the pitch, so he should not be penalized because the ball went into dead area not assisted by any offensive player.

In the second instance, the dead ball was called because it hit another offensive player and the defense wasn't able to even try to make a play on it. Because the defense (catcher) couldn't even attempt a play because of the dead ball, the defense shouldn't be penalized, even if it wasn't intentional. The runner has to go back.

It may sound complicated, but the baseball rulebook lists the cases when the ball is dead immediately and there are only a few--Hit batter, foul ball, ball going into dead area,  ball hits a runner in the field of play, ball hits an umpire in the infield. There might be one or two more but most times it is called a delayed dead ball so it gives the defense, or offense a chance to complete a play.  Even most balks nowadays are a delayed dead ball. Whenever there is a delayed dead ball, as an umpire, you let the play, play out and then award whatever penalty or award bases as so directed.
I am off to a game now, if you need further explanation I will try to explain it more clearly.

[Sem]

Thanks Len. That actually makes sense to me.