https://x.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1787864230340788291
First, it's not, "all of *the* sudden..." It's "all of *A* sudden."
Second, when did Daboll "complain about his WRs being too slow"?
Third, the only speedy addition on that list was Nabers.
Fourth, all that speed just means they get out of Jones's comfortable 10-yard throwing window faster. /sarcasm/ :P =))
Quote from: T200 on May 07, 2024, 12:55:37 PMFirst, it's not, "all of *the* sudden..." It's "all of *A* sudden."
Second, when did Daboll "complain about his WRs being too slow"?
Third, the only speedy addition on that list was Nabers.
Fourth, all that speed just means they get out of Jones's comfortable 10-yard throwing window faster. /sarcasm/ :P =))
I couldn't find the direct quote from Daboll, but I did find this comment from Schoen
Quote"I would say both sides of the ball, just team speed in general. Offense), defense and special teams," he said. "I think we did that with some of the free agents we signed: Parris Campbell can roll, Jeff (Smith) can roll, (Bobby) Okereke runs well. We've upgraded the speed in general; (Darren) Waller. So yeah, that's definitely something watching our team last year, we just felt we needed to get faster in all three phases."
would you prefer speed with dropsies of a sure-handed 4.5 - 4.6 runner? As long as they catch the catchable balls and break-up possible INT's, I'm happy. Seeing the return of Homer Jones however would make my day!!!!
Playing speed and running speed are two independent categories.
well said. and remember Carl Lewis....as they say about baseball pitchers.....all that speed and no control, i.e. for football....HANDS.
Quote from: President Rick on May 07, 2024, 03:20:27 PMwell said. and remember Carl Lewis....as they say about baseball pitchers.....all that speed and no control, i.e. for football....HANDS.
I remember hearing an interview with either the radio voice or a beat writer with the Bills immediately after the hires. He said look for the Giants to increase the speed among wideouts as it was a trait Daboll values
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on May 07, 2024, 04:57:53 PMI remember hearing an interview with either the radio voice or a beat writer with the Bills immediately after the hires. He said look for the Giants to increase the speed among wideouts as it was a trait Daboll values
Its team wide need for speed, not just WRs
Quote from: President Rick on May 07, 2024, 02:28:29 PMwould you prefer speed with dropsies of a sure-handed 4.5 - 4.6 runner? As long as they catch the catchable balls and break-up possible INT's, I'm happy. Seeing the return of Homer Jones however would make my day!!!!
Most of the elite Wrs of the past 2 decades ran a 4.5.
Jerry Rice was not a speed merchant.
I dont know the answer to this- just asking. If you looked at the top 10 WRs today, or top 5, how many would you think are fast?
Quote from: nb587 on May 07, 2024, 07:39:45 PMI dont know the answer to this- just asking. If you looked at the top 10 WRs today, or top 5, how many would you think are fast?
It is somewhat subjective who the five best receivers are, but I'll take a crack at it.
For "fast" I will use less than 4.45 on the 40. I think that's a fair cutoff for this position.
Is each of the below players fast?
Tyreek Hill (4.29): Yes
Cee Dee Lamb (4.5): No
Amon-Ra St. Brown (4.61): No
Ja'Marr Chase (4.38): Yes
AJ Brown (4.49): No
2 yes, 3 no.
Nothing's changed except Nabers so WTF?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 07, 2024, 08:04:10 PMIt is somewhat subjective who the five best receivers are, but I'll take a crack at it.
For "fast" I will use less than 4.45 on the 40. I think that's a fair cutoff for this position.
Is each of the below players fast?
Tyreek Hill (4.29): Yes
Cee Dee Lamb (4.5): No
Amon-Ra St. Brown (4.61): No
Ja'Marr Chase (4.38): Yes
AJ Brown (4.49): No
2 yes, 3 no.
Justin Jefferson 4.43
Davante Adams 4.56
Stefon Diggs 4.46
Cooper Kupp 4.62
Deebo Samuel 4.48
Thought I remembered this conversation.
https://www.nj.com/giants/2020/06/do-giants-have-fastest-offense-in-the-nfl-with-saquon-barkley-darius-slayton-and-the-rest.html
It's almost as if route running and a QB that can accurately get the ball in a receivers hands is more important.
I am going to add one thing. I suspect we should also be looking at 10-yard splits as they will reflect a receiver's suddenness/acceleration, which is as important if not more important than their long speed.
Take Evan Engram. He had an impressive 40 time, but he wasn't that sudden and it took him time to reach top speed. As a result, the defense didn't really struggle to cover him as much as his 40 times would suggest.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 09:30:55 AMI am going to add one thing. I suspect we should also be looking at 10-yard splits as they will reflect a receiver's suddenness/acceleration, which is as important if not more important than their long speed.
Take Evan Engram. He had an impressive 40 time, but he wasn't that sudden and it took him time to reach top speed. As a result, the defense didn't really struggle to cover him as much as his 40 times would suggest.
Engram's 10-yard split was strong:
(https://i0.wp.com/ras.football/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/evan-engram-ras-13858-1.png?resize=806%2C522&ssl=1)
That 10-yard split is within tenths of a second of Odunze and Nabers. Engram's numbers (PFF and counting stats) have been much better since he transitioned to Jacksonville and had Trevor Lawrence throwing him the ball.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 08, 2024, 10:02:35 AMEngram's 10-yard split was strong:
(https://i0.wp.com/ras.football/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/evan-engram-ras-13858-1.png?resize=806%2C522&ssl=1)
That 10-yard split is within tenths of a second of Odunze and Nabers. Engram's numbers (PFF and counting stats) have been much better since he transitioned to Jacksonville and had Trevor Lawrence throwing him the ball.
Have you considered that Engram's 4.42 40 time was a record at the time he ran it, yet his 1.56 split would put him 4th in just this year's combine with just a handful of TEs and none of them coming close to Engram's 4.42?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-r-niHtaYTpDE3ydHJXyV4QfWQ2HZWnRXUVbaMTK3C0/edit#gid=1749729294
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 10:17:17 AMHave you considered that Engram's 4.42 40 time was a record at the time he ran it, yet his 1.56 split would put him 4th in just this year's combine with just a handful of TEs and none of them coming close to Engram's 4.42?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-r-niHtaYTpDE3ydHJXyV4QfWQ2HZWnRXUVbaMTK3C0/edit#gid=1749729294
Yes, I guess it would place him 4th... by .01 seconds:
(https://imgur.com/zele4kd.png)
Update his RAS for the 2024 season, and its still a very strong 10-yard split:
(https://imgur.com/EwluQ4l.png)
I don't know why you're contorting yourself to state that Engram secretly wasn't really fast in short-space based on a 10-yard split when it's pretty clear that at least that metric doesn't support your conclusion. He's gotten open plenty in Jacksonville.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 08, 2024, 10:25:09 AMYes, I guess it would place him 4th... by .01 seconds:
You are dealing with small numbers at 10 yards so even 0.1 is significant. I hope you appreciate that while Egram's 10 yard split wasn't "bad" by RAS standards, what it is is slower than what one would expect from a 4.42 40 and shows Engram's acceleration wasn't that good, which is why he hasn't played like one would expect a TE with a 4.42 40 to play
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 10:28:11 AMYou are dealing with small numbers at 10 yards so even 0.1 is significant. I hope you appreciate that while Egram's 10 yard split wasn't "bad" by RAS standards, what it is is slower than what one would expect from a 4.42 40 and shows Engram's acceleration wasn't that good, which is why he hasn't played like one would expect a TE with a 4.42 40 to play
I don't recall a single fan complaining about Engram's speed when he was here. It was his hands.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 10:28:11 AMYou are dealing with small numbers at 10 yards so even 0.1 is significant. I hope you appreciate that while Egram's 10 yard split wasn't "bad" by RAS standards, what it is is slower than what one would expect from a 4.42 40 and shows Engram's acceleration wasn't that good, which is why he hasn't played like one would expect a TE with a 4.42 40 to play
.1 and .01 are different things entirely--the former being the difference between a 4.4 and a 4.5 (significant), and the latter being the difference between a 4.40 and 4.41 (negligible). We're dealing with the latter in your position that Engram's 10-yard split isn't actually impressive because it would only be "4th ranked TE 10-yard split" this combine, despite a discrete ranking not really being representative of his athleticism as I showed above. Engram's 10-yard split was faster than Wan'Dale's and he's well-regarded for his short-area quickness. Your conclusion about Engram may well-indeed be correct, but it's not supported by the 10-yard split metric and I think its pretty clear.
Quote from: T200 on May 08, 2024, 10:33:27 AMI don't recall a single fan complaining about Engram's speed when he was here. It was his hands.
Tim,
When the Giants drafted Engram in round one, Reese talked about how he was going to be nearly impossible to cover with that 4.42 speed. Yet, if you look at NFL's Next Gen stats, while Engram is the fastest (or top 3), his separation yardage puts him around 10th among NFL TEs.
That was my issue. Engram was always undersized, and his hands were suspect, but we were sold on the idea that LBs and Safeties (who usually cover TEs) would never stand a chance against him (because of that 4.42 speed).
Here is a link to Next Gen Stats if you are interested.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving/2021/REG/all#average-separation
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 08, 2024, 10:37:33 AMYour conclusion about Engram may well-indeed be correct, but it's not supported by the 10-yard split metric and I think its pretty clear.
Since you put so much effort into trying to prove me wrong, I guess I should acknowledge your efforts. Yes, it does take some digging to see how the 10-yard split indicates a lack of acceleration compared to his 40 times; you are correct. A look at the number with no other work being done wouldn't jump out at you in terms of there being a problem. Congratulations
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 10:40:30 AMTim,
When the Giants drafted Engram in round one, Reese talked about how he was going to be nearly impossible to cover with that 4.42 speed. Yet, if you look at NFL's Next Gen stats, while Engram is the fastest (or top 3), his separation yardage puts him around 10th among NFL TEs.
That was my issue. Engram was always undersized, and his hands were suspect, but we were sold on the idea that LBs and Safeties (who usually cover TEs) would never stand a chance against him (because of that 4.42 speed).
Here is a link to Next Gen Stats if you are interested.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving/2021/REG/all#average-separation
I understand your point, Rich.
My point is that despite his being 10th in separation yards, that statistic did not contribute to his issues. If he had held onto the majority of the passes thrown his way, 1) he'd probably still be a Giant, and 2) his separation yards would not be discussed.
Quote from: T200 on May 08, 2024, 10:45:15 AMI understand your point, Rich.
My point is that despite his being 10th in separation yards, that statistic did not contribute to his issues. If he had held onto the majority of the passes thrown his way, 1) he'd probably still be a Giant, and 2) his separation yards would not be discussed.
I won't disagree that his untimely drops certainly were a major issue for him.
OR, what you do in shorts and t-shirt is not a true indication of what you can do in full pads when some guy is trying to impede and reroute you. And at the end of the 40, the 10 yard split, or 3-cone drill you aren't expected to catch the ball.
Benn busy at work so not sure if this was posted in here (or elsewhere).....
Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
21h
The #Giants have all of the sudden built out one of the fastest WR corps in the NFL
Malik Nabers 4.38
Darius Slayton 4.39
Jalin Hyatt 4.40
Wan'Dale Robinson 4.44
From an Xs&Os standpoint, having this level of speed on the field should force Ds to cover every blade of grass.
Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
21h
The Malik Nabers addition is going to make it difficult for defenses to shade coverage over the top of Jalin Hyatt like we saw at times in 2023.
Instead, we could be looking at a lot more rolled coverages toward Nabers & one-on-one opportunities for Hyatt to beat his man #Giants
Daboll when he came on board made a comment that we must be one of the slowest teams in the NFL. He emphasizes speed kind of like that Dolphins ball coach does.
THey have transformed team speed and Theo is pretty fast for a 6'6 255-260 pound TE too.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 08, 2024, 12:53:48 PMThe Malik Nabers addition is going to make it difficult for defenses to shade coverage over the top of Jalin Hyatt like we saw at times in 2023.
Instead, we could be looking at a lot more rolled coverages toward Nabers & one-on-one opportunities for Hyatt to beat his man #Giants
Daboll when he came on board made a comment that we must be one of the slowest teams in the NFL. He emphasizes speed kind of like that Dolphins ball coach does.
THey have transformed team speed and Theo is pretty fast for a 6'6 255-260 pound TE too.
That is the impact a true number one WR has on an offense. Not only does he make the QB's life easier, but his fellow WRs tend to benefit by having to face lesser defenses due to the focus on the number one guy.
Quote from: nb587 on May 07, 2024, 05:42:13 PMIts team wide need for speed, not just WRs
Quote from: nb587 on May 07, 2024, 05:42:13 PMIts team wide need for speed, not just WRs
True. But as to the specific interview I referenced, the Buffalo guy was asked about a Daboll offense, what Giants fans might expect, etc. and he mentioned speed at WR
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 08:18:56 AMJustin Jefferson 4.43
Davante Adams 4.56
Stefon Diggs 4.46
Cooper Kupp 4.62
Deebo Samuel 4.48
We should throw Free Agent RB Dante Miller into the mix as he ran a 4.28 40x.
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