Any separate threads opened will be deleted. Any threads hijacked to a Daniel Jones discussion, will be deleted or the thread locked.
Sorry folks one of the moderators deleted the last thread by accident so we need to start a new one. I was able to salvage a few things I had posted.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fj8-boVXkAIGnEI?format=jpg&name=large)
https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1603091066663702531
https://twitter.com/lt4kicks/status/1603065040881745920
Jones QBR, Yards, TD
Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 14, 2022, 07:15:38 PMJones QBR, Yards, TD
Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 14, 2022, 03:00:17 PMAny separate threads opened will be deleted. Any threads hijacked to a Daniel Jones discussion, will be deleted or the thread locked.
It's too bad we lost the stuff in this thread but it's really no big deal as I'm sure the thread will be re-populated lickety split.
I think the QBR rankings buttress my point that Jones has clawed his way to being a middle rank QB despite being in a lousy situation with very little quality on the offense.
My inference, that some team or teams that have more quality on their offense but no established QB will look at that and think about what he could be in their higher quality offense, may be less certain. But I think one or more teams will be willing to sign him for more than some of the perpetually biased think. Which will end the pro/con war that some have engaged in, here.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 14, 2022, 08:00:31 PMI think the QBR rankings buttress my point that Jones has clawed his way to being a middle rank QB despite being in a lousy situation with very little quality on the offense.
My inference, that some team or teams that have more quality on their offense but no established QB will look at that and think about what he could be in their higher quality offense, may be less certain. But I think one or more teams will be willing to sign him for more than some of the perpetually biased think. Which will end the pro/con war that some have engaged in, here.
I wouldn't be surprised if some team offered Jones a contract that paid him $25+ million AAV. I just hope the Giants aren't the ones who do it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 14, 2022, 05:52:52 PMSorry folks one of the moderators deleted the last thread by accident so we need to start a new one. I was able to salvage a few things I had posted.
That would be me. Redfaced
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 14, 2022, 08:05:22 PMI wouldn't be surprised if some team offered Jones a contract that paid him $25+ million AAV. I just hope the Giants aren't the ones who do it.
I also wouldn't be surprised if some team does that. And I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a top 5-10 QB with that team.
He's gotta consistently throw it deeper that 7 yards to be a top 5-10 QB, which he seems to have forgotten how to do.
Daniel Jones is definitely one of the players in the NFL. Of all the NFL players, he is one of them. Some say that Daniel Jones is an NFL player, and I agree with them. And when people say Jones isn't an NFL player? I tell them he is...
... Sorry, I just can't go in circles anymore with identical arguments about Jones, simply featuring this week's stats. I feel like I've read the same thing with different clothes every week since the Giants' winning ways ceased. I know I'm spinning my wheels here (to amuse myself and maybe, hopefully, others), but it's been a relief to not feel obliged to jump in to every Jones thread to get my two cents in.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 14, 2022, 08:53:26 PMI also wouldn't be surprised if some team does that. And I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a top 5-10 QB with that team.
Except that literally never happens after more than 2 full years as a starter.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 14, 2022, 10:35:34 PMDaniel Jones is definitely one of the players in the NFL. Of all the NFL players, he is one of them. Some say that Daniel Jones is an NFL player, and I agree with them. And when people say Jones isn't an NFL player? I tell them he is...
... Sorry, I just can't go in circles anymore with identical arguments about Jones, simply featuring this week's stats. I feel like I've read the same thing with different clothes every week since the Giants' winning ways ceased. I know I'm spinning my wheels here (to amuse myself and maybe, hopefully, others), but it's been a relief to not feel obliged to jump in to every Jones thread to get my two cents in.
The MODs have done a great job by starting one DJ thread to rule them all.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 14, 2022, 10:49:17 PMExcept that literally never happens after more than 2 full years as a starter.
That's the great thing. Nothing either of us says matters. What happens going forward matters. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 14, 2022, 08:53:26 PMI also wouldn't be surprised if some team does that. And I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a top 5-10 QB with that team.
I would be stunned if he ever became a Top 10 QB over the course of a Full 17 game season.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 14, 2022, 10:49:17 PMExcept that literally never happens after more than 2 full years as a starter.
As long as you ignore Geno Smith
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 08:06:55 AMAs long as you ignore Geno Smith
Geno Smith started less than two seasons (26 games) before being removed as a starter. Conversely, DJ will have 55 starts, in fact, DJ will almost have as many GS as Geno Smith's entire 9 year career. I clearly stated three years as a starter; so, your example doesn't work. The reason I stated three years is examples exist of qb improving in year 3 as a starter, but literally none after year 4.
Geno actually played really well when given a chance to start in years 3, 4 and 5. In case you forgot:
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/12/02/when-he-was-last-a-starter-geno-smith-actually-played-pretty-well/
It's put up time for Daniel Jones.
https://twitter.com/jordanraanan/status/1603405402703527940?
Yes it is a big game. But I have a feeling that the brain trust has already set their strategy for the QB position for next year.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 15, 2022, 11:18:54 AMYes it is a big game. But I have a feeling that the brain trust has already set their strategy for the QB position for next year.
I 100% agree, Rich; IMO, the Giants aren't going to disregard the previous 50 games in favor of the last 5. I believe they set their strategy at the beginning of this season, reevaluated at the midway point, and will execute regardless of the last handful of games.
He failed to come up big in their last game. This game has playoff implications and he needs to show he can come up big in big moments. This is an important metric in his evaluation.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 15, 2022, 11:33:32 AMI 100% agree, Rich; IMO, the Giants aren't going to disregard the previous 50 games in favor of the last 5. I believe they set their strategy at the beginning of this season, reevaluated at the midway point, and will execute regardless of the last handful of games.
That's not what Schoen said at the bye when asked if there were any contract negotiations with DJ. What reason would he have to lie when he said they weren't finished with the evaluation and had x amount of games left to evaluate him?
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 15, 2022, 11:43:15 AMThat's not what Schoen said at the bye when asked if there were any contract negotiations with DJ. What reason would he have to lie when he said they weren't finished with the evaluation and had x amount of games left to evaluate him?
What's the alternative, Ed? Did you expect Schoen to reveal the Giants long term strategy, while the Giants were still competing for a playoff spot? What's the benefit of doing so at that time? There are none, only negatives...hence his response.
It really is pointless to glean anything from HC and GM press conferences, as they're not going to reveal inner discussion/decisions to the public until it's appropriate to do so. They're a private business, not a publicly traded company; thus, they're under no obligation to be truthful...
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 15, 2022, 11:18:54 AMYes it is a big game. But I have a feeling that the brain trust has already set their strategy for the QB position for next year.
I am not sure if they have but it's definitely clear having not worked out an extension yet that they haven't fully made the decision to keep him.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 15, 2022, 12:20:43 PMI am not sure if they have but it's definitely clear having not worked out an extension yet that they haven't fully made the decision to keep him.
I didn't say they have decided whether or not to keep him, I said they have finalized their strategy for dealing with the QB position. There are more factors than deal or no deal. Who's available at what price, who might they like in the draft, how much do they want their own guy, what is their top number if they make DJ an offer.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 15, 2022, 12:25:48 PMI didn't say they have decided whether or not to keep him, I said they have finalized their strategy for dealing with the QB position. There are more factors than deal or no deal. Who's available at what price, who might they like in the draft, how much do they want their own guy, what is their top number if they make DJ an offer.
I'm not even sure if they've finalized that part of it yet. Think though to your point they are leaning in a certain direction but having not gone through the combine, pro days, etc. I don't believe they've finalized things.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 15, 2022, 12:28:35 PMI'm not even sure if they've finalized that part of it yet. Think though to your point they are leaning in a certain direction but having not gone through the combine, pro days, etc. I don't believe they've finalized things.
If CFO/CEO of a 4+ billon dollar company doesn't have a projected strategy for the next year mapped out, where in big trouble.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 15, 2022, 11:54:24 AMWhat's the alternative, Ed? Did you expect Schoen to reveal the Giants long term strategy, while the Giants were still competing for a playoff spot? What's the benefit of doing so at that time? There are none, only negatives...hence his response.
It really is pointless to glean anything from HC and GM press conferences, as they're not going to reveal inner discussion/decisions to the public until it's appropriate to do so. They're a private business, not a publicly traded company; thus, they're under no obligation to be truthful...
Why not say that they're committed to Jones? If they were, wouldn't it be best for him and the team at that point? They could always change their minds down the road. It's not going to affect their off season negotiations. How would that hurt them to reveal that? Explain.
They weren't at that point and that's why he said they are still evaluating him.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 15, 2022, 12:50:45 PMIf CFO/CEO of a 4+ billon dollar company doesn't have a projected strategy for the next year mapped out, where in big trouble.
Well sure they have a strategy but as to them having already finalized who is the player that they will target to be their starting QB in 2023, I don't believe that has been determined yet.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 15, 2022, 12:53:26 PMWhy not say that they're committed to Jones? If they were, wouldn't it be best for him and the team at that point? They could always change their minds down the road. It's not going to affect their off season negotiations. How would that hurt them to reveal that? Explain.
They weren't at that point and that's why he said they are still evaluating him.
That's my point, Ed. They're not committed to Jones; if they were, the answer would be different. I'm a big fan of paying attention to actions over words. Concerning the former, clearly the Giants have a strategy mapped-out that doesn't include Jones as their long-term/franchise QB. If they did, they would have exercised his 5th year option, or given a vote of confidence by approaching his agent on a new deal. They did neither, which reveals their plan. I think we might be in violent agreement in that we both believe the Giants relative draft position may force them to offer DJ a 2/3 year deal in the 20/25 million dollar deal, or use the rarely used transition tag. Where we differ is I don't believe the next few games will alter the Giants current plan.
Lawerence Tynes believes the only reason DJ isn't back next year, it's because another team signs him away.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 02:49:50 PMLawerence Tynes believes the only reason DJ isn't back next year, it's because another team signs him away.
If another team signs him away, then they never intended him to be the Franchise QB or don't believe in him to be that. I agree they will try to sign him unless the price gets too high. Then they go with TT and whoever else is out there. I really believe these next few games are the pivotal point for DJ's career as a NYG.
The last few days those loyal to John Mara in the media and former players like Tynes have been putting out these pieces. It's almost like they want to force public pressure to force Schoen to commit to Jones. Hopefully Schoen and the new regime doesn't give in and makes their own decision.
Exactly what I was about to type, Ed. You don't let franchise QBs hit the open market...
It's amazing how content with average we are. The guy has had the same average stats going on 7 years, and instead of trying to find a Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, or Burrow we just doom ourselves to continued mediocrity. No matter who Jones has had on offense he puts up virtually the same stats, did the same thing in college. Genuinely blows my mind after 4 years of this we're wanting to sign up for more. To say Jones doesn't have targets, Slayton, Hodgins, Robinson, Barkley, Bollinger wasn't an absolutely horrible lineup and we have done nothing... absolutely nothing, could it be better absolutely but only a 160-179 yards a game? It's not that bad Taylor replicated a third of Jones' passing in 5 minutes that Jones had the whole game but yeah.. everyone else is the problem.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 15, 2022, 03:51:36 PMThe last few days those loyal to John Mara in the media and former players like Tynes have been putting out these pieces. It's almost like they want to force public pressure to force Schoen to commit to Jones. Hopefully Schoen and the new regime doesn't give in and makes their own decision.
You can watch the video and come away with a few different conclusions
A) Maybe Tynes is right, and Jones is better than I thought
B) Maybe Tynes is wrong, and Jones is who I thought he was
C) Tynes is involved in a Mara-led conspiracy to get former players and others to say how good Jones is to pressure his employee to keep him
(https://i.imgur.com/GzL8rEe.jpg)
For those not going down that rabbit hole, you should check out the video. The thing that really struck me was Tynes is apparently living in an area with around 8 former players. He says they all like Jones and are a lot higher on him than the general public. Tynes did qualify that he didn't need their validation, as Tynes feels pretty comfortable in what he has seen from Jones. One thing that Tynes really liked was how Jones handles the NYC media, which has taken down many a player and QB. Tynes also pointed out that things like yardage is more of a team stat.
As I have said many times, I am still on the fence with Jones. I have heard many good strong arguments for and against Jones (as well as some pretty poor ones). I am hoping that maybe these last 4 games will shed more light for me. I think a good game from Jones this Sunday night (assuming the protection holds up) would help be feel more optimistic about Jones' future.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 15, 2022, 04:13:40 PMIt's amazing how content with average we are. The guy has had the same average stats going on 7 years, and instead of trying to find a Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, or Burrow we just doom ourselves to continued mediocrity. No matter who Jones has had on offense he puts up virtually the same stats, did the same thing in college. Genuinely blows my mind after 4 years of this we're wanting to sign up for more. To say Jones doesn't have targets, Slayton, Hodgins, Robinson, Barkley, Bollinger wasn't an absolutely horrible lineup and we have done nothing... absolutely nothing, could it be better absolutely but only a 160-179 yards a game? It's not that bad Taylor replicated a third of Jones' passing in 5 minutes that Jones had the whole game but yeah.. everyone else is the problem.
Jess,
Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread. QBR was your choice. Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9. I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.
Jones QBR, Yards, TD
Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system. His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league. Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have. Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).
There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 04:28:53 PMJess,
Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread. QBR was your choice. Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9. I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.
Jones QBR, Yards, TD
Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1
Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system. His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league. Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have. Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).
There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.
6 of 13 games he was over 60%! That's 46%.
That's 7.82 games of a 17 game schedule. Sounds about right.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 04:28:53 PMJess,
Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread. QBR was your choice. Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9. I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.
Jones QBR, Yards, TD
Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1
Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system. His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league. Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have. Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).
There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.
You're notion only makes sense if you chose to look at QBR in a vacuum. When you couple his QBR with other objectionable data, you can see how Jess' point has merit. In the four games you identified, DJ had a TOTAL of 639 passing yards (159 yards/gm). To compare his QBR to Mahomes is odd, as the latter obtained his lofty QBR, while simultaneously leading the entire NFL in passing yards, TDs and QB rating. Conversely, DJ is averaging just 194 Yards and .9 TDs per game. It's not too difficult to obtain a higher QBR when running for yards and throwing 5 yard passes. However, playing that conservative leads to limited production. In short, nobody outside of a few posters on this board would compare DJ to Mahomes...there is none. Finally, a few weeks ago you expressed the importance of using trends to evaluate a QB. You made this statement between weeks 4 and 7. If you still believe that notion, than you must believe DJ is trending downwards as 4 of DJs last 6 QBRs have been mediocre. However, in this thread, you seem to have forgotten the importance of trends, as it applies to QBRs?
Wk 4 71 Yards 0 TDs
Wk 7 202 Yards 1 TDs
Wk 10 197 Yards 2 TD
Wk 14 169 Yard 1 TD
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2022, 04:28:53 PMJess,
Now you are contradicting the stats you posted earlier in the thread. QBR was your choice. Now for reference, the highest QBR rating is Mahomes at 77.9. I will put in bold how many of DJ's games he exceeded that number.
Jones QBR, Yards, TD
Wk1 23.4 188 2
Wk2 38.2 176 1
Wk3 46.9 196
Wk4 88.4 71
Wk5 70.6 217
Wk6 72.0 173 2
Wk7 86.9 202 1
Wk8 24.5 176
Wk10 85.4 197 2
Wk11 38.1 341 1
Wk12 59.4 228 1
WK13 31.5 200 1
Wk14 78.2 169 1
Now in fairness, Jones is in the first year of a new system. His O-line at its best is mediocre to average and at worse (which happens far too often) is one of the worst in the league. Jones doesn't have a top-10 receiving target that all the top-10 QBs who are not named Rogers or Brady have. Yet despite all that there were by your chosen measure 4 games that Jones played outstanding football (one of them earning him NFC offensive player of the week).
There are valid and legit concerns/criticisms of DJ, but frankly, this claim about him never being anything but mediocre no matter what is simply not accurate.
I posted his weekly QBR and yards because it was supposed to be a Jones thread just like Ed posted the Qbr from ESPN? What does that have to do with saying statically in college he has had the same stats every season and as a pro he's virtually had the same stats every season...
Your wanting me to give him a cookie for playing well in 4 out of 13 games?
I genuinely would love to know Why you get so upset when anyone says anything that isn't pro Jones? For you to claim be so
neutral you haven't posted one thread, one Twitter post, one article, or one picture of anything stating the other case? For as many threads as you start, not one talking about the other side and why he shouldn't be retained. Instead you go in every single thread debating anyone that doesn't see through Jones tinted glasses.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 15, 2022, 09:17:10 PMI genuinely would love to know Why you get so upset when anyone says anything that isn't pro Jones? For you to claim be so neutral you haven't posted one thread, one Twitter post, one article, or one picture of anything stating the other case? For as many threads as you start, not one talking about the other side and why he shouldn't be retained. Instead you go in every single thread debating anyone that doesn't see through Jones tinted glasses.
In fairness to Rich, the threads he starts are primarily sharing what he finds. Yes, it seems to be one-sided in support of Jones but I hardly see any anti-Jones posts or articles on the web.
Now, his
responses are a different story.
@T200 and
@Jclayton92 So you guys have convinced yourself that I must be lying about being neutral (I would say on the fence or undecided). You know, I often use the term process when it comes to evaluating Jones. I advocate good processes and a strong attempt to be open-minded to new information and avoid bias. Now you two might want to consider the process that led you to the conclusion that I am secretly in the Jones camp and just lying about my true position as some sinister ruse. I mean, in the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, my last post was literally 50/50
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2022, 04:05:56 PMJones 5
Barkley 3
It seems to me it doesn't get more even than that. If you wonder why I tend to disagree with the negative Jones camp primarily, it's for two reasons:
1) I get regular PMs from members complaining about the overwhelmingly negative tone that BBH has towards Jones. Those complaints have some validity because I can tell you that BBH is more negative toward Jones than what I see and hear elsewhere. So there is an effort by me to bring balance to our forum.
2) I do like to see a good process in evaluation. I more often see those flaws in the negative camp than I do in the positive camp. Besides, with so much Jones negativity on BBH, it's not like any positive Jones comment isn't going to be met with multiple disagreements.
Further, I tend not to like to use the term neutral when it comes to Jones. I think the quickest way to the Giants becoming contenders is if Jones is the answer. I think finding a replacement franchise QB is not as easy as many people seem to believe it is. So while I may be 50/50 on if Jones is a franchise QB, I am hoping he proves that he is.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 15, 2022, 01:40:46 PMThat's my point, Ed. They're not committed to Jones; if they were, the answer would be different. I'm a big fan of paying attention to actions over words. Concerning the former, clearly the Giants have a strategy mapped-out that doesn't include Jones as their long-term/franchise QB. If they did, they would have exercised his 5th year option, or given a vote of confidence by approaching his agent on a new deal. They did neither, which reveals their plan. I think we might be in violent agreement in that we both believe the Giants relative draft position may force them to offer DJ a 2/3 year deal in the 20/25 million dollar deal, or use the rarely used transition tag. Where we differ is I don't believe the next few games will alter the Giants current plan.
Actions do speak louder then words
Not trading SB at the trade deadline to me says they are at least interested in trying to keep SB.
Not extending DJ's 5th, not extending him at the trade deadline and while we were 7- and committing to him said to me they still weren't sold. Limiting his play the 2nd 1/2 or this season seems more and more obvious.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 16, 2022, 08:41:13 AMActions do speak louder then words
Not trading SB at the trade deadline to me says they are at least interested in trying to keep SB.
Not extending DJ's 5th, not extending him at the trade deadline and while we were 7- and committing to him said to me they still weren't sold. Limiting his play the 2nd 1/2 or this season seems more and more obvious.
On Barkley, I think at that point he was the Giants Offense. To trade him would indeed be giving up on the season and they couldn't do that to the people who pay good money for their tickets and the team morale would have fallen apart and hurt Daboll. They had to bite the bullet and lose out on that draft capital.
Now could they tag him and trade him? I don't think they would sign him to trade him. It's not an ethical move from their perspective. I think they tag him and keep him. I would let him go.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2022, 08:56:46 AMOn Barkley, I think at that point he was the Giants Offense. To trade him would indeed be giving up on the season and they couldn't do that to the people who pay good money for their tickets and the team morale would have fallen apart and hurt Daboll. They had to bite the bullet and lose out on that draft capital.
Now could they tag him and trade him? I don't think they would sign him to trade him. It's not an ethical move from their perspective. I think they tag him and keep him. I would let him go.
Tag and trade is possible
Sign and trade I think we would take a big cap hit if I understand it right.
We could tag and keep 1 more season and trade during the season if we are underperforming.
I still think SB has a greater chance of staying then DJ.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 16, 2022, 08:27:08 AM@T200 and @Jclayton92
So you guys have convinced yourself that I must be lying about being neutral (I would say on the fence or undecided). You know, I often use the term process when it comes to evaluating Jones. I advocate good processes and a strong attempt to be open-minded to new information and avoid bias. Now you two might want to consider the process that led you to the conclusion that I am secretly in the Jones camp and just lying about my true position as some sinister ruse. I mean, in the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, my last post was literally 50/50
It seems to me it doesn't get more even than that. If you wonder why I tend to disagree with the negative Jones camp primarily, it's for two reasons:
1) I get regular PMs from members complaining about the overwhelmingly negative tone that BBH has towards Jones. Those complaints have some validity because I can tell you that BBH is more negative toward Jones than what I see and hear elsewhere. So there is an effort by me to bring balance to our forum.
2) I do like to see a good process in evaluation. I more often see those flaws in the negative camp than I do in the positive camp. Besides, with so much Jones negativity on BBH, it's not like any positive Jones comment isn't going to be met with multiple disagreements.
Further, I tend not to like to use the term neutral when it comes to Jones. I think the quickest way to the Giants becoming contenders is if Jones is the answer. I think finding a replacement franchise QB is not as easy as many people seem to believe it is. So while I may be 50/50 on if Jones is a franchise QB, I am hoping he proves that he is.
Rich,
Those are two HUGE assumptions on your part. First, I haven't convinced myself of anything, and second, I didn't say nor imply that you are lying.
What I said was your non-thread-starting posts are generally, mostly, primarily supportive of Jones and you have routinely deferred making any judgments on him, well into his 4th season, because of his lack of NFL-caliber support. When other posters cite his less-than-average performances, you respond with the reasons why any of his particular performances were subpar.
As far as your prediction about the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, that's not the same as what you think of him. That '5' is in reference to what you think SCHOEN will do, not how you feel about him. Two different things.
Last, you often speak about intellectual honesty and logical fallacies. The items I bolded from your statement are dishonest and intellectually flawed.
Quote from: T200 on December 16, 2022, 09:18:07 AMRich,
Those are two HUGE assumptions on your part. First, I haven't convinced myself of anything, and second, I didn't say nor imply that you are lying.
What I said was your non-thread-starting posts are generally, mostly, primarily supportive of Jones and you have routinely deferred making any judgments on him, well into his 4th season, because of his lack of NFL-caliber support. When other posters cite his less-than-average performances, you respond with the reasons why any of his particular performances were subpar.
As far as your prediction about the running chance that Jones stays with the Giants, that's not the same as what you think of him. That '5' is in reference to what you think SCHOEN will do, not how you feel about him. Two different things.
Last, you often speak about intellectual honesty and logical fallacies. The items I bolded from your statement are dishonest and intellectually flawed.
If Rich didn't take the other side as often as he does, there would be much less discussion over Daniel Jones and that is the number one posting topic which gets the most hits. Every time he posts it compels several people on here to dig their heels in. It's quite brilliant.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2022, 09:35:38 AMIf Rich didn't take the other side as often as he does, there would be much less discussion over Daniel Jones and that is the number one posting topic which gets the most hits. Every time he posts it compels several people on here to dig their heels in. It's quite brilliant.
It's a perpetual tennis match that no one will ever win. The only thing that changes is the ball.
Quote from: T200 on December 16, 2022, 09:56:13 AMIt's a perpetual tennis match that no one will ever win. The only thing that changes is the ball.
I think you're missing the point there Tim.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2022, 09:58:05 AMI think you're missing the point there Tim.
Deliberately. 8))
It truly is remarkable how often the negative Jones crowd will make the topic about the flaws or sinister motives, or secret plans (like getting more activity) of those that don't share their negative views about Jones, rather than about Daniel Jones himself. No doubt it's this Ad hominem nature that drives so many complaints to my inbox.
@T200, you argue that my 50/50 is what I think Schoen would do. That is correct, but when there was a discussion about people "losing it" over the ultimate disposition on Daniel Jones, I made it clear that as fans we don't know as much as the coaches and the GM do. I have zero reasons to think that one way or the other, Schoen will make the wrong decision on what to do with Jones. So when I say 50/50 it also reflects my belief as to ultimately what Jones is.
It's ironic that you guys all get upset (and, in my opinion, rightfully so) if you are referred to as Jones "haters." Yet you saw nothing wrong with
@jgrangers2 saying:
" Instead, you go in every single thread debating anyone that doesn't see through Jones tinted glasses."
No doubt people who don't share your negative views will think twice about posting something positive about Daniel Jones after seeing the wild accusations and false claims leveled against the owner for just being neutral (I shudder to think what would happen if I was pro-Jones). So is an echo chamber of Jones negativity really what you guys want? Have you guys ever wondered to yourselves why the post about being fair in evaluating Daniel Jones got nine likes (the highest like count I have seen on a post)?
No doubt you guys will disagree with me. Yet, nothing you say can explain away the fact that you guys made this discussion about ME rather than about Daniel Jones (which is exactly what ad hominem is). The ironic part is that while you guys try to get everyone to share your negative views of Daniel Jones, I actually find it harder to remain unbiased (I have to remind myself not to let this influence my views) as I don't like being pushed toward a particular position.
I'd love to respond to your last post, Rich, but this is way off topic.
Quote from: T200 on December 16, 2022, 10:02:02 AMDeliberately. 8))
Would make a great Hedge Fund Manager. ;)
Most people everyone calls Jones haters genuinely think he's a middle of the road average Qb, and just think the team should go in a different direction. That's it, and you can make it more but in reality they think he's 15-20 and want more for the team. Not hating, just loving the Giants and having a different perspective.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 16, 2022, 04:19:16 PMMost people everyone calls Jones haters genuinely think he's a middle of the road average Qb, and just think the team should go in a different direction. That's it, and you can make it more but in reality they think he's 15-20 and want more for the team. Not hating, just loving the Giants and having a different perspective.
The biggest issue in these discussions is this. Anything that isn't 100% Pro Jones is seen as hating him.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 16, 2022, 04:24:11 PMThe biggest issue in these discussions is this. Anything that isn't 100% Pro Jones is seen as hating him.
I can't help but think of the golden rule when I see posts like this. It's more than fair to want to be treated with respect and have your opinions considered valid rather than just the rantings of Jones haters. Yet while that is how you want to be treated, in turn, you crap all over those that don't agree with you and paint people who support Jones as irrational people that see anything less than 100% Jones as hating him. I wish this do as I say, not as I do, was a one-off, but sadly 3 people endorsed that post.
I am done with this nonsense. How about we stick with the topic of this thread?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkH01pBWAAAYUiE?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 16, 2022, 04:24:11 PMThe biggest issue in these discussions is this. Anything that isn't 100% Pro Jones is seen as hating him.
Funny, I see it as the opposite. Any post with anything remotely positive immediately draws strongly negative rebuttals, usually in the form of criticisms that have been made repeatedly.
Perspective is an interesting thing.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 17, 2022, 07:18:56 AMI can't help but think of the golden rule when I see posts like this. It's more than fair to want to be treated with respect and have your opinions considered valid rather than just the rantings of Jones haters. Yet while that is how you want to be treated, in turn, you crap all over those that don't agree with you and paint people who support Jones as irrational people that see anything less than 100% Jones as hating him. I wish this do as I say, not as I do, was a one-off, but sadly 3 people endorsed that post.
I am done with this nonsense. How about we stick with the topic of this thread?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkH01pBWAAAYUiE?format=jpg&name=large)
Rambo has never crapped all over you and brings a ton of discussion to your board, but sure go after him Rich. I was initially just trying to tell you the you were alienating half of the board not being actually neutral and liking all of BFs, and Todges posts and ranting about Jones haters at the deadline and even a week ago. If you don't want to change, I don't care, I was just trying to tell you as the owner that more ppl might actually speak their mind if you were actually Switzerland.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 17, 2022, 08:45:13 AMFunny, I see it as the opposite. Any post with anything remotely positive immediately draws strongly negative rebuttals, usually in the form of criticisms that have been made repeatedly.
Perspective is an interesting thing.
I can provide links to SEVERAL post over this season where those of us who believe DJ is #12 to #20 QB had good, or great games; in contrast, I've never seem a post from the "pro Jones" group criticizing him. Thus, the notion of naturality is humorous and not taken seriously.
I also find it odd you believe posting objectionable data to support ones position is negative. If you review the Jones threads, there are few "JONES SUCKS" posts. Instead, there are 'I disagree, his the objectionable data that supports my position type posts.' The latter should be viewed as a positive on a board that claims to consist of the most 'informed fans.' You have to risk offending, and being offended, in order to gain true knowledge...
I also find it houmous that it's considered positive to attack our OL and WRs, as long as you're defending Jones.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2022, 10:33:16 AMRambo has never crapped all over you and brings a ton of discussion to your board, but sure go after him Rich. I was initially just trying to tell you the you were alienating half of the board not being actually neutral and liking all of BFs, and Todges posts and ranting about Jones haters at the deadline and even a week ago. If you don't want to change, I don't care, I was just trying to tell you as the owner that more ppl might actually speak their mind if you were actually Switzerland.
Jess,
I think I understand where the issue is. You see, I am truly neutral (in the sense I have not made up my mind). So I take in all comments, good and bad, in terms of Daniel Jones. The thing is, I am very critical when I examine new data. I treat claims and data like a court treats expert witnesses and testimony. I vet what I hear thoroughly. If, in the course of vetting the new data, I come across flaws, I will mention them.
I mean, I consider your claim that you know more about what I think and feel, than I do. Let me ask you, how do you think I rate that in terms of being a fair, level-headed, and reasonable person? I mean, put yourself in my shoes, how would you feel if someone accused you of lying about what you think (and you know that what you said is true)? Do you think that makes me more inclined to listen to your case?
Consider what I saw with Rambo. There is information provided by Carl Banks a former Giants player, who likes his reputation of telling it like it is, and talks with the coaching staff. You have Lawerence Tynes another former Giant who also talks with the coaches. Now instead of listening to what either of them has to say and weighing the merits of what they say, he dismisses them with a conspiracy theory that they both pumping up Daniel Jones at the behest of John Mara who wants to keep Daniel Jones and what Banks and Tynes says will put pressure on Joe Schoen to keep Jones. Can you see that there might be a flaw in that line of thinking?
If you honestly and sincerely care about alienating members, you just might want to consider how often I get PMs complaining about the overwhelming Jones negativity and how the critics dominate this forum. I mean, you point to me, but it's not like the members critical of Daniel Jones don't know they have two admins that agree with them. I will also say those complaints have validity to them. I do not see the level of Jones negativity I see at BBH on other Giants forums, in social media, or among writers/pundits. For example, when the game was out of hand and they pulled Jones, only BBH ran with the narrative that NYG should consider benching Jones in favor of Tyrod Taylor. That was a unique position that I only saw here at BBH.
Look, Jess, I have literally said it's wrong to label people critical of Jones as haters. How about you don't endorse the opposite that those not as critical of Jones must be Jones lovers or people who see things through "Jones-tinted glasses" (that was you who made that accusation, wasn't it?)
How about trying to be more respectful to the people on both sides of this polarizing issue while also being trying open-minded and trying to hold opinions to the standard of critical thinking?
I find it perplexing that people get as bent out of shape as they do about "Jones critics", but these same folks seem perfectly fine to start (or participate in) thread after thread about how we have the worst receivers in the league, how pathetic our blocking is, and how our play-calling and coaches in general are terrible (moreso in past years on the latter point but very common over the years).
Why is criticism only a problem for these folks when it happens to be about Daniel Jones? Why is it not only not a problem with other players and members of this organization, but in fact it seems to be welcomed, encouraged, and repeated over and over again? But yet if anyone puts anything non-positive about Jones, that person is a "hater", PMs get sent by people who can't seem to handle it, and personal attacks frequently ensue?
It's all rather odd, but any fair and objective observation of all of this would have to conclude that, for some reason, people are just highly sensitive about our QB in particular and get visibly offended (or at least put off) if basically not every other member joins in a chorus of cheerleading and is completely unwilling to or incapable of of every finding even a modicum of fault in him as a player.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 17, 2022, 11:16:48 AMI can provide links to SEVERAL post over this season where those of us who believe DJ is #12 to #20 QB had good, or great games; in contrast, I've never seem a post from the "pro Jones" group criticizing him. Thus, the notion of naturality is humorous and not taken seriously.
I also find it odd you believe posting objectionable data to support ones position is negative. If you review the Jones threads, there are few "JONES SUCKS" posts. Instead, there are 'I disagree, his the objectionable data that supports my position type posts.' The latter should be viewed as a positive on a board that claims to consist of the most 'informed fans.' You have to risk offending, and being offended, in order to gain true knowledge...
I also find it houmous that it's considered positive to attack our OL and WRs, as long as you're defending Jones.
You kind of just proved my point.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2022, 11:40:13 AMI find it perplexing that people get as bent out of shape as they do about "Jones critics", but these same folks seem perfectly fine to start (or participate in) thread after thread about how we have the worst receivers in the league, how pathetic our blocking is, and how our play-calling and coaches in general are terrible (moreso in past years on the latter point but very common over the years).
Why is criticism only a problem for these folks when it happens to be about Daniel Jones? Why is it not only not a problem with other players and members of this organization, but in fact it seems to be welcomed, encouraged, and repeated over and over again? But yet if anyone puts anything non-positive about Jones, that person is a "hater", PMs get sent by people who can't seem to handle it, and personal attacks frequently ensue?
It's all rather odd, but any fair and objective observation of all of this would have to conclude that, for some reason, people are just highly sensitive about our QB in particular and get visibly offended (or at least put off) if basically not every other member joins in a chorus of cheerleading and is completely unwilling to or incapable of of every finding even a modicum of fault in him as a player.
People are entitled to their opinions and we're not going to change each other's minds but the misrepresentation of someone else's position as hating Jones because they believe he's a middle of the road QB.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 17, 2022, 12:27:13 PMPeople are entitled to their opinions and we're not going to change each other's minds but the misrepresentation of someone else's position as hating Jones because they believe he's a middle of the road QB.
Some of us (@DaveBrown) actually believe he's better than average...top 1/3 actually. Yet, some of us are keenly aware the game has dramatically changed over the last decade; today, it's critical to have a top 12 QB to remain competitive. It's the hypocrisy that's simply unfair; to that point, it's considered negative to post facts pertaining to the QB; yet, it's considered positive to bash the coaches, oline, WRs and even Barkly when defending the QB. Objective data is used to support the notion our WRs stink, while simultaneously considered 'negative' if used to highlight the fallacies of the QB.
I've actually been very consistent on Jones. I have said for a long time (well over a year now and more like 2-3 years) that I believe him to likely be a middle of the road starter. That is to say decent, but not a guy for whom you break the bank or around whom you build a team for the long haul.
So far this year, he is 15th in QB rating, 14th in QBR, 21st in DYAR, and his PFF grade is a middling 70.1.
Suffice to say my view on this player is unchanged from what it has been for a while now. My eyes tell me he is middle of the road, and the numbers do too.
Yeah I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said in regards to these DJ debates.
Most who are "anti Jones" don't think he sucks or is a bad QB. We just think he is a mid tier average QB, you can do alot better, and you can do alot worse. In this day and age, it is extremely hard to win a SB without a true franchise QB, a franchise guy has always been important but it is even less often than it used to be when a Dilfer or Flacco occasionally win one. The more the rules changed over the year and made it more of a QB friendly league, the more critical the need for a top tier QB is.
Those of us who want to go a different direction, often provide data, sources, as well as well thought out insights of our own. But when this happens those people are being ridiculed and called wrong for disagreeing.
But it is perfectly acceptable to say our receivers are trash because they aren't high draft picks, which is unfair. Were these same things being said in 2011 when an undrafted rookie (Victor Cruz) propelled us towards another Super Bowl win? These late round picks are ranked 25th and 31st overall based on the same grades the pro DJ side provide, theres 64+ starting WRs, so they are in the top half and they are doing this with an average QB. How can they then be considered bad receivers? Slayton has more receiving yards than DJ Moore and Jerry Jeudy, among others who many on here were clamoring for us to trade for.
The main issue here, is whether you are Pro Jones, Anti Jones, or Neutral, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but it seems that anyone who defends Jones to the death is unable to acknowledge or accept that truth. I and many others have repeatedly said that opinions on both ends are entitled and well thought out. I cannot say I have seen much of that on the other end of the debate from from the "pro Jones" side of things. Rather than attack each other, why can't we just engage in healthy debate and conversations about both Jones and anything else about the team?
If you like DJ and want him to stay, that's great. While we may not agree, we cab all share our views and reasons and have sustainable dialogue to keep the board active and moving. But if anyone critiques or challenges a certain article, or is not supported of Jones, they are often blasting, being called wrong, and labeled as a hater. We aren't haters for wanting a change. We just think they have a certain ceiling with him, and it is one where Super Bowls are not within reach.
Rank the following QB's on a scale of 1-10.
Colt McCoy
Dak Prescott
Daniel Jones
Mac Jones
Ryan Tannehill
Jimmy G
Goff
Mitch Trubisky
Derek Carr
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 09:44:24 AMRank the following QB's on a scale of 1-10.
Colt McCoy
Dak Prescott
Daniel Jones
Mac Jones
Ryan Tannehill
Jimmy G
Goff
Mitch Trubisky
Derek Carr
Colt McCoy 3
Dak Prescott 7
Daniel Jones 5
Mac Jones 5?
Ryan Tannehill 5
Jimmy G 6
Goff 6
Mitch Trubisky 5
Derek Carr 7
Mac Jones was hard as he had a phenomenal rookie season, but has come down to earth with 2,189 yard 7 Td 8 Int so until I see different I've got to go 5
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 18, 2022, 11:12:03 AMColt McCoy 9
Dak Prescott 1
Daniel Jones 7
Mac Jones 6
Ryan Tannehill 5
Jimmy G 4
Goff 3
Mitch Trubisky 8
Derek Carr 2
Missing a name?
Wow! That's interesting. Looks like you saw one being the highest and you ranked them instead of scaling them. Ok, that's cool.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 11:34:32 AMWow! That's interesting. Looks like you saw one being the highest and you ranked them instead of scaling them. Ok, that's cool.
Lol it was early where I am, was just trying to participate. I'll adjust now that I've had coffee.
Colt McCoy 2
Dak Prescott 6
Daniel Jones 5
Mac Jones 4
Ryan Tannehill 6
Jimmy G 6
Goff 6
Mitch Trubisky 5
Derek Carr 6
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 18, 2022, 12:58:15 PMColt McCoy 2
Dak Prescott 6
Daniel Jones 5
Mac Jones 4
Ryan Tannehill 6
Jimmy G 6
Goff 6
Mitch Trubisky 5
Derek Carr 6
Yeah similar to mine give or take, for the most part.
After a solid rookie season I thought Mac Jones would be better this season. He's been a disappointment in New England to me.
I'm watching nfl network at the gym and for those who don't k is just show clips of games happening right now.
We should start a running thread of throws NFl QBs can make that Daniel Jones can't . So far I have seen dak prescott and Darnold of all things not to mention Jared Goff as well.
A fourth year qb the giants have which half the fan base is in love with and wants extended . Boggles the mind
1. Tannehill (6)
2. Garropolo (6)
3. Dak (6)
4. Carr (6)
5. Goff (5)
6. Daniel Jones (5)
7. Mac Jones (5)
8. Mitch Trubisky (4)
9. Colt McCoy (4)
Colt McCoy - 2
Dak Prescott - 7.5
Daniel Jones - 5
Mac Jones 5
Ryan Tannehill - 6
Jimmy G - 6
Goff - 6
Mitch Trubisky - 5.5
Derek Carr - 6.5
Can Dallas win the NFC with a 6-7.5 QB?
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 03:20:54 PMCan Dallas win the NFC with a 6-7.5 QB?
Perhaps they could. The surrounding cast is 8 - 9.5. But the Eagles may be a bit better with their 8 - 9.5 QB and 8.5 - 9.5 supporting cast.
Bill
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 03:20:54 PMCan Dallas win the NFC with a 6-7.5 QB?
Maybe, given the relative strength of the NFC is pretty poor; however, I don't see them beating Mahomes, Burrow or Allen in a SB. The AFC has all the QBs....
1. Dak (7.5)
2. Tannehill (7)
3. Carr (7)
4. Garropolo (6.5)
5. Goff (6.5)
6. Daniel Jones (6)
7. Mac Jones (5)
8. Mitch Trubisky (4)
9. Colt McCoy (3)
Quote from: Fletch on December 18, 2022, 01:35:36 PMI'm watching nfl network at the gym and for those who don't k is just show clips of games happening right now.
We should start a running thread of throws NFl QBs can make that Daniel Jones can't . So far I have seen dak prescott and Darnold of all things not to mention Jared Goff as well.
A fourth year qb the giants have which half the fan base is in love with and wants extended . Boggles the mind
See for everyone that thinks I'm a Jones hater I was all in on him the first few years and did tons of research and analytics on him. The wild thing is that he used to be able to make some of those throws, his first two years he had great deep ball placement and his timing was spot on. I don't know if it was Garrett or whomever but last year Jones was broken and despite Daboll and crew squeezing every single thing out of him, I don't think you'll ever see better than we're seeing right now from Jones which is scary for everyone wanting him to be retained because he's missing the basic instincts to nit only survive but thrive as an NFL QB.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 03:20:54 PMCan Dallas win the NFC with a 6-7.5 QB?
With their defense and pollard I think divisional round at best.
Would you be happy with any of those QB's instead of Daniel Jones or it has to be the Draft?
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 11:34:32 AMWow! That's interesting. Looks like you saw one being the highest and you ranked them instead of scaling them. Ok, that's cool.
To be fair, you said to rank them, not grade them.
Quote from: Fletch on December 18, 2022, 01:35:36 PMI'm watching nfl network at the gym and for those who don't k is just show clips of games happening right now.
We should start a running thread of throws NFl QBs can make that Daniel Jones can't . So far I have seen dak prescott and Darnold of all things not to mention Jared Goff as well.
A fourth year qb the giants have which half the fan base is in love with and wants extended . Boggles the mind
The Cowboys just lost against the Jags in OT on a Dak INT.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 18, 2022, 04:25:05 PMTo be fair, you said to rank them, not grade them.
Guilty
Quote from: Fletch on December 18, 2022, 01:35:36 PMI'm watching nfl network at the gym and for those who don't k is just show clips of games happening right now.
We should start a running thread of throws NFl QBs can make that Daniel Jones can't . So far I have seen dak prescott and Darnold of all things not to mention Jared Goff as well.
A fourth year qb the giants have which half the fan base is in love with and wants extended . Boggles the mind
Is this the Dak throw you were referring to? :D
https://twitter.com/KevinGraySports/status/1604574804228587522
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 18, 2022, 03:57:45 PMWould you be happy with any of those QB's instead of Daniel Jones or it has to be the Draft?
Depends on the situation, I wouldn't be thrilled with any of them longterm. They all have positives but in that range they also all have negatives.
Quote from: Fletch on December 18, 2022, 01:35:36 PMI'm watching nfl network at the gym and for those who don't k is just show clips of games happening right now.
We should start a running thread of throws NFl QBs can make that Daniel Jones can't . So far I have seen dak prescott and Darnold of all things not to mention Jared Goff as well.
A fourth year qb the giants have which half the fan base is in love with and wants extended . Boggles the mind
It boggles my mind why we haven't stayed with Glennon and Jason Garrett. Right?!?
Quote from: AP44 on December 18, 2022, 07:01:34 PMIt boggles my mind why we haven't stayed with Glennon and Jason Garrett. Right?!?
Speaking of Jason Garrett. At what point do people apologize for blaming him for the offenses troubles the prior two seasons?
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 18, 2022, 07:35:29 PMSpeaking of Jason Garrett. At what point do people apologize for blaming him for the offenses troubles the prior two seasons?
The giants struggle this year has nothing to do with Garrett's ineptness.
I didn't see teams lining up to sign him this off-season.
Whatever I've just been waiting for the Giants to get into the victory formation and sneak it before every half , and that was post Garrett. Have they even really put in any kind of effort to score before a half all year?
Quote from: Fletch on December 18, 2022, 08:52:34 PMWhatever I've just been waiting for the Giants to get into the victory formation and sneak it before every half , and that was post Garrett. Have they even really put in any kind of effort to score before a half all year?
That was a pretty good drive, don't you think? Jones making money throws all drive too.
Quote from: AP44 on December 18, 2022, 09:56:49 PMThat was a pretty good drive, don't you think? Jones making money throws all drive too.
Yeah all that money for a total of 160 yards. One drive does not make a season or a game. It was a great drive, if he could do that every possession we wouldn't be having discussions. The problem is that Jones has one decent drive a game, or one great game a season and people think he should be retained. The Backup in Washington significantly outplayed Jones tonight. Great full for the win, but I doubt Jones made any money tonight, he just managed.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 18, 2022, 05:30:53 PMIs this the Dak throw you were referring to? :D
https://twitter.com/KevinGraySports/status/1604574804228587522
No, I meant the deflected INT in OT that was returned for a game-winning TD. I don't have a link - I saw it on Redzone.
97 yard TD drive with 91 yards of it on passes. Just sayin'.
Quote from: AP44 on December 18, 2022, 08:14:51 PMThe giants struggle this year has nothing to do with Garrett's ineptness.
I didn't see teams lining up to sign him this off-season.
Just another example of the "scheme" and "play calling" not being the issue
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 05:15:57 AMJust another example of the "scheme" and "play calling" not being the issue
Collinsworth said it himself during the game: It's not the play you call; it's the player you call the play to.
https://twitter.com/AndrewBrandt/status/1604666105783586817
Daniel Jones Impressive In Giants' Win Over Commanders
Rich GannonNFL MVP Quarterback
https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/analysis/giants-secure-critical-win-over-commanders/
Former Giants Scout
https://twitter.com/SteveV_NFL/status/1604826082875961346
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 05:15:57 AMJust another example of the "scheme" and "play calling" not being the issue
So true all the jones pumper uppers were ranting and raving about how Garrett was holding him back. No one is saying Garrett was this great coach incidentally but, let's remind the jones crew that it is 2 offensive coordinators later and jones is still passing for like 161 yards and 0 TDs and five yard passes.
Say what you want he is not a franchise qb. And he needs to be on a stacked team or a can only win if Barkley and the defense plays amazing against a lesser opponent.
It's amazing after a big time win last night, we still have to read posts degrading the QB. And I was told I was the one with the agenda....
Quote from: Fletch on December 19, 2022, 08:24:41 AMSo true all the jones pumper uppers were ranting and raving about how Garrett was holding him back. No one is saying Garrett was this great coach incidentally but, let's remind the jones crew that it is 2 offensive coordinators later and jones is still passing for like 161 yards and 0 TDs and five yard passes.
Say what you want he is not a franchise qb. And he needs to be on a stacked team or a can only win if Barkley and the defense plays amazing against a lesser opponent.
They won. With Jones as QB and
without a stacked team.
Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Some of you would be complaining after a SB win. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Quote from: T200 on December 19, 2022, 08:30:17 AMThey won. With Jones as QB and without a stacked team.
Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Some of you would be complaining after a SB win. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
The poster is on record from another board saying Mike Glennon is better than Joe Burrow. =)) =)) =)) =))
Quote from: AP44 on December 19, 2022, 08:33:07 AMThe poster is on record from another board saying Mike Glennon is better than Joe Burrow. =)) =)) =)) =))
He's entitled to his opinion.
My point is that regardless of the ranking of Jones in the eyes of fans, he's an important part of the team and he's shown that the Giants can win with him at QB. There is no tried and true formula for winning a SB. It's Schoen's and Daboll's job to find a winning recipe. I don't have a problem if Jones is a key ingredient. I don't have a problem if they decide to move on from him. But bashing this guy left and right is comical at this point.
Quote from: T200 on December 19, 2022, 08:36:57 AMHe's entitled to his opinion.
My point is that regardless of the ranking of Jones in the eyes of fans, he's an important part of the team and he's shown that the Giants can win with him at QB. There is no tried and true formula for winning a SB. It's Schoen's and Daboll's job to find a winning recipe. I don't have a problem if Jones is a key ingredient. I don't have a problem if they decide to move on from him. But bashing this guy left and right is comical at this point.
Thats a really good point. I have no problem people saying we need to upgrade. I would actually tend to agree. But he has been an integral part of a lot of our wins.
Quote from: T200 on December 19, 2022, 08:36:57 AMHe's entitled to his opinion.
My point is that regardless of the ranking of Jones in the eyes of fans, he's an important part of the team and he's shown that the Giants can win with him at QB. There is no tried and true formula for winning a SB. It's Schoen's and Daboll's job to find a winning recipe. I don't have a problem if Jones is a key ingredient. I don't have a problem if they decide to move on from him. But bashing this guy left and right is comical at this point.
Bingo!
It's not up to us fans as much as we want to believe it is!
Our opinions don't mean diddly poo!
JS and Dabs will decide and we will all continue to root for the name on the helmet not the name on the back of the jersey!
JS has shown enough so far to of earned our trust.
It's only fair to put our personal opinions/bias aside and entrust the process whichever way that goes
Quote from: AP44 on December 19, 2022, 08:28:11 AMIt's amazing after a big time win last night, we still have to read posts degrading the QB. And I was told I was the one with the agenda....
Pointing out the Giants haven't been a high productive offense this season just like last season is not strictly targeted at one player but rather the entire unit as to play calling/scheme not being the issue. It's lack of overall talent.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 08:50:48 AMPointing out the Giants haven't been a high productive offense this season just like last season is not strictly targeted at one player but rather the entire unit as to play calling/scheme not being the issue. It's lack of overall talent.
There were two posters who specifically mentioned Jones and his stat lines last night and this morning as a means of degrading his performance.
Jones played a better game last night. The quick passes were the key for Jones' success and the Line did a decent job with Bredeson an upgrade at LG. Jones made some nice passes and a few off target passes. He also checked down when the Right WR had beaten his man on a go route. Overall he had a solid game. Still 13 points of Offensive is nothing to thump the chest over.
It's clear that Barkley is the face of this franchise and it was underscored when NBC highlighted the matchup with a shot of Heineke and SB. That's the impression the rest of the league has.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 19, 2022, 08:56:16 AMJones played a better game last night. The quick passes were the key for Jones' success and the Line did a decent job with Bredeson an upgrade at LG. Jones made some nice passes and a few off target passes. He also checked down when the Right WR had beaten his man on a go route. Overall he had a solid game. Still 13 points of Offensive is nothing to thump the chest over.
It's clear that Barkley is the face of this franchise and it was underscored when NBC highlighted the matchup with a shot of Heineke and SB. That's the impression the rest of the league has.
He did what he had to do to win managing the game. Giants formula for winning is with their running game, not turning over the ball and playing great defense.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 08:59:47 AMHe did what he had to do to win managing the game. Giants formula for winning is with their running game, not turning over the ball and playing great defense.
Mistake free football is what the Giants need to have a chance and HOPE to win.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 08:59:47 AMHe did what he had to do to win managing the game. Giants formula for winning is with their running game, not turning over the ball and playing great defense.
I think he should also have a good PFF grade. He's finally sniffing playoffs and he has the support of the majority of the sportswriters and ex players. Like I've said, they will look to have him back next year. He hasn't given them a reason to definitely move on.
https://nypost.com/2022/12/19/giants-daniel-jones-can-smell-playoffs-after-years-of-misery/amp/
Just for the record I was making a different point that Burrow is not elite (but a good top 10 QB) and playing with some great wide receivers. He would n't be worse than Glennon but, I was saying if Glennon was on the Bengals and Burrow on the Giants last year--he would not be considered elite at all.
Although he has impressed me more this season than he did in all of his play off games last year. He is really moving around the pcoket well and passing , and I enjoy watching him more this year than last year. Glennon really needs a pocket and a good oline. He was not a good fit here and, a much better QB than he showed here. His reads deep are half ass and his accuracy short passes are inconsistent. Kind of pathetic that my only hope for the Giants last year was a cinderalla story. Leave it this guy to never let me forget it. He thinks it's important to be a smart football fan. Newsflash buddy .... Mara would rather have a bunch of rich wall street traders spending lavishly in his press boxes who could not name one player than some big fan type who works in a parking lot and dedicates their whole life to spouting off football stats on call in sports shows.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 19, 2022, 09:14:38 AMI think he should also have a good PFF grade. He's finally sniffing playoffs and he has the support of the majority of the sportswriters and ex players. Like I've said, they will look to have him back next year. He hasn't given them a reason to definitely move on.
https://nypost.com/2022/12/19/giants-daniel-jones-can-smell-playoffs-after-years-of-misery/amp/
The reason to move on IMO will be impacted by whether the front office has identified a QB in next spring's draft they want to target.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 09:23:59 AMThe reason to move on IMO will be impacted by whether the front office has identified a QB in next spring's draft they want to target.
I think they will believe he has more upside. I see a QB who will help the Giants have winning records and make the playoffs some years. I don't see the Giants dominating unless he proves he can make big plays downfield. However there is clearly an influence on him as he goes for the safe option.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 19, 2022, 09:31:20 AMI think they will believe he has more upside. I see a QB who will help the Giants have winning records and make the playoffs some years. I don't see the Giants dominating unless he proves he can make big plays downfield. However there is clearly an influence on him as he goes for the safe option.
I wonder...
DJ went through 3 HCs - 4 different OCs.
Mara admits we screwed this kid up.
Is this years plan a safe plan to rebuild him and his confidence?
Are the Giants playing it safe, to rebuild him knowing this years wins/losses really don't matter long term?
Rebuild him mentally, have him gain confidence, surround him with better targets next year and then start to open it up and let him loosen up a bit?
Idk
Just a thought!!!
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 19, 2022, 09:31:20 AMI think they will believe he has more upside. I see a QB who will help the Giants have winning records and make the playoffs some years. I don't see the Giants dominating unless he proves he can make big plays downfield. However there is clearly an influence on him as he goes for the safe option.
If this was the regime that drafted him I would agree with this. But the fact that he isn't their guy that they drafted that they have invested their tenures on tells me that what's out there for next spring's draft will determine the direction they go in.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 19, 2022, 09:36:41 AMI wonder...
DJ went through 3 HCs - 4 different OCs.
Mara admits we screwed this kid up.
Is this years plan a safe plan to rebuild him and his confidence?
Are the Giants playing it safe, to rebuild him knowing this years wins/losses really don't matter long term?
Rebuild him mentally, have him gain confidence, surround him with better targets next year and then start to open it up and let him loosen up a bit?
Idk
Just a thought!!!
Since the day he was hired Schoen has mentioned "Compete today and Build for tomorrow." As his team building mantra. Going with a game plan formula to win games has allowed the Giants to compete for today. I don't believe that holding Jones back would build for tomorrow if they felt he was capable of being their guy. If anything I think they would want to have him take more chances and learn from that.
Simply amazing to me of all the current and former sports stars over the years that have come and gone in NY: Eli, Jacob Degrom , Aaron Judge , Patrick Ewing Charles Oakley; all of these guys with the exception of maybe Oakley were championship caliber players that fan bases were either apathetic about them leaving or I talk to some Yankee fans and they didn't want to re-sign Judge because of his play off performance.
But Daniel Jones holy! heaven forbid you want to move on from some guy who I cannot think of one starting QB from yersterday's 1:00 eastern time games that I would not rather have on the Giants including the milf man Zak Wilson. I watched these guys on NFL network -- where they show multiple games -- all of them -- make throws where I was like " wow I have not seen Daniel Jones make a throw like that!"
But for some reason no one wants to give up on a guy where it so obvious without Barkley playing like a Hall of famer and without a defense getting constant pressure and causing turnovers and defensive TDs -- this guy really sucks and is incapable of winning anything. He had all the time in the world yesterday--I don't think he got sacked once--yet sure enough he was throwing 90mph fastballs from 5 yards away that no one can catch and not looking down field at all.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Quote from: AP44 on December 19, 2022, 08:28:11 AMIt's amazing after a big time win last night, we still have to read posts degrading the QB. And I was told I was the one with the agenda....
So you thought the Qb played amazing football last night? To say he managed the game is not degrading him, it's simply saying he managed... what else can you say about a 160 yards lol?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 19, 2022, 10:44:50 AMSo you thought the Qb played amazing football last night? To say he managed the game is not degrading him, it's simply saying he managed... what else can you say about a 160 yards lol?
Can we please stop? You feel he managed the game and got a 'W', others feel differently. Move on.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 19, 2022, 10:44:50 AMSo you thought the Qb played amazing football last night? To say he managed the game is not degrading him, it's simply saying he managed... what else can you say about a 160 yards lol?
Did I say he played amazing? If so please point that out. If not, please do not put words in my mouth and make stuff up. I appreciate it.
Jones QBR this week - 74. Which was 4th best in the league.
Now, I am not a fan of QBR whatsoever, but many have used advanced stats to advocate players at other positions. So if we are consistent with that notion, Jones was one of the better QBs this week.
Just going from the early Sunday games which I still contend all the QBs were better --and I don't use QBR -- since all I need is 2 eyes , an objective attitude , and not to mention yards and TDs
Texans / Chiefs
Davis Mills QBR 95.9 ; 2 TDs incidentally
Mahomes QBR 125.7 336 yards; 2 TDs
Steelers / Panthers
Darnold QBR 119.4 225 yards 1 TD
Trubisky 108.9 QBR 179 yards
Jets/Lions
Zak Wilson QBR 99.9 317 yards 2 TDs 1 int
Jared Goff QBR 95 252 yards 1 TD
People use advanced stats for other positions because it is the only way to counter the false narrative that Jones is this good QB who is being held back to his receivers or oline play.
Quote from: Fletch on December 19, 2022, 11:29:41 AMJust going from the early Sunday games which I still contend all the QBs were better --and I don't use QBR -- since all I need is 2 eyes , an objective attitude , and not to mention yards and TDs
Texans / Chiefs
Davis Mills QBR 95.9 ; 2 TDs incidentally
Mahomes QBR 125.7 336 yards; 2 TDs
Steelers / Panthers
Darnold QBR 119.4 225 yards 1 TD
Trubisky 108.9 QBR 179 yards
Jets/Lions
Zak Wilson QBR 99.9 317 yards 2 TDs 1 int
Jared Goff QBR 95 252 yards 1 TD
People use advanced stats for other positions because it is the only way to counter the false narrative that Jones is this good QB who is being held back to his receivers or oline play.
:what:
Quote from: AP44 on December 19, 2022, 11:08:58 AMJones QBR this week - 74. Which was 4th best in the league.
Now, I am not a fan of QBR whatsoever, but many have used advanced stats to advocate players at other positions. So if we are consistent with that notion, Jones was one of the better QBs this week.
TBF and I am not saying you but it has been those who have advocated for Daniel Jones that have used the advanced stats rather than the detractors.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 11:39:07 AMTBF and I am not saying you but it has been those who have advocated for Daniel Jones that have used the advanced stats rather than the detractors.
I get it. Like I said, I am not a fan of that or PFF or DVOA, or any other because it usually has flaws that dont tell the whole story. All are tools.
Quote from: T200 on December 19, 2022, 08:30:17 AMThey won. With Jones as QB and without a stacked team.
Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Some of you would be complaining after a SB win. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Ummm, 2011. Ed and I were nearly run off the board for being optimistic through that playoff run. In fairness, it was different folks back then doing the running.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 19, 2022, 12:03:11 PMUmmm, 2011. Ed and I were nearly run off the board for being optimistic through that playoff run. In fairness, it was different folks back then doing the running.
No gloating, there Rich. /sarcasm/
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 08:59:47 AMHe did what he had to do to win managing the game. Giants formula for winning is with their running game, not turning over the ball and playing great defense.
And yet 94%, 91 out of 97 yards, of the yards on their best drive of the year were through the air. And the second longest drive of the season happened with Barkley in the blue tent and not on the field.
And that 'great' defense is 26th in yards allowed and 14th in points allowed. The latter stat, which is the that really counts in my eyes is good, but I wouldn't call it great.
But to be fair, Barkley was literally a whirling dervish on that final drive. After those 3 whirling runs I was yelling at the TV, "you've got them set up, go play action!!!"
So it looks like NFL.com is using either QBR to be Rating and not actual QBR or just a mistake in general. But whatever ... that just goes to show that no one really cares
Here is an example from the Texans game:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Chiefs+vs+Houston+Texans+Sunday%2c+December+18%2c+2022&FORM=S00035
It was a lot more fun around here without some xxxx who is trying to prove he's right all the time
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 19, 2022, 09:23:59 AMThe reason to move on IMO will be impacted by whether the front office has identified a QB in next spring's draft they want to target.
I think it will be governed by what they decide their limit is and what another team will offer. They have too many holes to fill, and extensions for some of their player to negotiate, to blow too much of the budget on him. Or Barkley.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 19, 2022, 12:18:01 PMAnd yet 94%, 91 out of 97 yards, of the yards on their best drive of the year were through the air. And the second longest drive of the season happened with Barkley in the blue tent and not on the field.
And that 'great' defense is 26th in yards allowed and 14th in points allowed. The latter stat, which is the that really counts in my eyes is good, but I wouldn't call it great.
But to be fair, Barkley was literally a whirling dervish on that final drive. After those 3 whirling runs I was yelling at the TV, "you've got them set up, go play action!!!"
And yet the Giants still have the 5th least productive passing game in the League.
Quote from: Fletch on December 19, 2022, 11:29:41 AMJust going from the early Sunday games which I still contend all the QBs were better --and I don't use QBR -- since all I need is 2 eyes , an objective attitude , and not to mention yards and TDs
Texans / Chiefs
Davis Mills QBR 95.9 ; 2 TDs incidentally
Mahomes QBR 125.7 336 yards; 2 TDs
Steelers / Panthers
Darnold QBR 119.4 225 yards 1 TD
Trubisky 108.9 QBR 179 yards
Jets/Lions
Zak Wilson QBR 99.9 317 yards 2 TDs 1 int
Jared Goff QBR 95 252 yards 1 TD
People use advanced stats for other positions because it is the only way to counter the false narrative that Jones is this good QB who is being held back to his receivers or oline play.
I think you are confusing QBR with Passer Rating. It is impossible to score higher than 100 on QBR because it is a 0-100 scale.
Quote from: Fletch on December 19, 2022, 12:22:22 PMSo it looks like NFL.com is using either QBR to be Rating and not actual QBR or just a mistake in general. But whatever ... that just goes to show that no one really cares
Here is an example from the Texans game:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Chiefs+vs+Houston+Texans+Sunday%2c+December+18%2c+2022&FORM=S00035
It was a lot more fun around here without some xxxx who is trying to prove he's right all the time
Totally out of line, IMO.
Quote from: Fletch on December 19, 2022, 12:22:22 PMSo it looks like NFL.com is using either QBR to be Rating and not actual QBR or just a mistake in general. But whatever ... that just goes to show that no one really cares
Here is an example from the Texans game:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Chiefs+vs+Houston+Texans+Sunday%2c+December+18%2c+2022&FORM=S00035
It was a lot more fun around here without some xxxx who is trying to prove he's right all the time
Way out of line. You need to cut the xxxx. Final warning.
Sorry.
Banks and Tynes are feeling their oats today
https://twitter.com/lt4kicks/status/1604895307678244864
https://twitter.com/CarlBanksGIII/status/1604713642175365120
1-10 in primetime games now, least he got that off his back with the win.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 19, 2022, 01:04:21 PMBanks and Tynes are feeling their oats today
https://twitter.com/lt4kicks/status/1604895307678244864
https://twitter.com/CarlBanksGIII/status/1604713642175365120
He had a lot of zip on his passes. He seemed to be more confident.
https://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1604881710818156544
https://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1604891638949588993
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 19, 2022, 01:56:03 PM1-10 in primetime games now, least he got that off his back with the win.
This is what drives me crazy. Even a great win becomes an occasion to throw shade at DJ.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/12/19/phil-simms-david-tryee-believe-daniel-jones-should-be-new-york-giants-qb-2023/
https://twitter.com/PhilSimmsQB/status/1604667261045841920
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 19, 2022, 05:57:40 PMhttps://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/12/19/phil-simms-david-tryee-believe-daniel-jones-should-be-new-york-giants-qb-2023/
https://twitter.com/PhilSimmsQB/status/1604667261045841920
He was bashed for years when he was young and he may be sympathetic to Jones and not the best sound board. One thing I see is that the organization wants to support Jones and they have may not have reached out to the alumni to underscore the case for Jones but these guys know where their bread is buttered and want to stay relevant.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 19, 2022, 05:19:04 PMThis is what drives me crazy. Even a great win becomes an occasion to throw shade at DJ.
I was being genuine, he's the only QB In the past 20 years to have that many primetime games without a win. Everyone wanted him to show up in a big game, and so saying he got the monkey off his back is factual. I have said in the game thread and elsewhere that he had a great drive multiple times. However I'm not sure 160 yards and 0 Tds vs a defensive secondary that is giving up the 8th most yards, and 6th best cmp% is something to write home about. Without that one drive he has 70 yards passing for the rest of the game.. 70 yards in 52 minutes but all the former giants are up in arms about how great he was? I just don't get it as he virtually played the exact same game he has all season with the att cmp, and yards.. what other Qb in the NFL is getting praised for a 160 yard game with no Tds.. they don't not even backups.
Per Big Blue View
"Daniel Jones had just 160 yards passing and averaged 5.0 yards per attempt. Per NFL NextGenStats, his average pass was 5.2 yards short of the first down marker and was intended to have 3.7 air yards. His average depth of target ranks in the 2nd percentile dating back to 2010 and his average completion traveled just 3.4 yards downfield in the air".
"Per NFL NextGenStats, just four of Jones' 32 pass attempts were thrown to receivers who were covered"
https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/19/23516303/2022-week-15-ny-giants-washington-commanders-offense-defense-stats-analytics-analysisScreenshot_2022_12_19_at_2.21.35_AM.webp
DJ also ran for 35 yards in the last game, so we need to include that as well.
His QBR is 57.1 which has him ranked 12th in the entire NFL
His 90.5 RTG is ranked 17th, so he's not that far away from being where he needs to be.
Let's see how this transpires
If we're looking at his numbers, I think the term "middling" is fair.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 19, 2022, 09:03:36 PMPer Big Blue View
"Daniel Jones had just 160 yards passing and averaged 5.0 yards per attempt. Per NFL NextGenStats, his average pass was 5.2 yards short of the first down marker and was intended to have 3.7 air yards. His average depth of target ranks in the 2nd percentile dating back to 2010 and his average completion traveled just 3.4 yards downfield in the air".
"Per NFL NextGenStats, just four of Jones' 32 pass attempts were thrown to receivers who were covered"
https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/19/23516303/2022-week-15-ny-giants-washington-commanders-offense-defense-stats-analytics-analysis[url="https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=6424;type=preview;file"]Screenshot_2022_12_19_at_2.21.35_AM.webp[/url]
Yet the strategy worked and the quick one read passing attack kept off the delayed blitzes, twists and stunts. There was only one play that I was able to see on replay where the Giant's Receiver was open on a go route where DJ had time after a roll out. May have been more.
With all these guys doing podcast analysis with the all 22, I haven't seen any of them looking at each game for other downfield options. The one exception was the Hodkins stop and go. So are we to assume they don't exist? I've seen several on the replay angle.
The game plan is always keep it close and let the other team make the mistakes.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 20, 2022, 08:33:47 AMYet the strategy worked and the quick one read passing attack kept off the delayed blitzes, twists and stunts. There was only one play that I was able to see on replay where the Giant's Receiver was open on a go route where DJ had time after a roll out. May have been more.
With all these guys doing podcast analysis with the all 22, I haven't seen any of them looking at each game for other downfield options. The one exception was the Hodkins stop and go. So are we to assume they don't exist? I've seen several on the replay angle.
The game plan is always keep it close and let the other team make the mistakes.
I agree the one read offense was a good idea as most teams had grasped their rpo/Playaction from previous games. It was definitely the right call, and would have probably been more effective if the run game had been better before that last drive.
There is the commentary here and then there is
https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1605258140139884544
https://twitter.com/giantswfan/status/1605253131469815812
https://twitter.com/giantswfan/status/1605253450618572800
and there is
https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1605247353052532736
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 02:01:10 PMIt could be, but then if one is going to promote that argument, that same person cannot then post a bunch of low PFF scores for receivers on a given team, then conclusively claim the QB has "no help" or "the worst receivers in the league", and expect to be taken seriously by any sound-minded reader. Those two arguments would be completely self-contradictory in nature.
"It could be"
Why is it so difficult to give Jones any credit?
https://twitter.com/giantswfan/status/1605276801474904064
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 20, 2022, 03:02:38 PM"It could be"
Why is it so difficult to give Jones any credit?
Credit for what exactly? Aren't you of the view that our receivers are literally the worst in the NFL? Now you're asking me to give Jones credit for them actually being pretty good?
I'm confused. Seems a bit all over the place.
Two questions:
1) What do you consider to be a reasonable offer for Jones?
2) Would you be upset if Schoen makes that offer to Jones but Jones goes to another team for more money?
For me, $20 million per year for 3 years is reasonable.
No, I would not be upset if he takes more money from another team.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 03:21:46 PMCredit for what exactly? Aren't you of the view that our receivers are literally the worst in the NFL? Now you're asking me to give Jones credit for them actually being pretty good?
I'm confused. Seems a bit all over the place.
Well, we know the narrative Jones critics like yourself are pushing. You claim that the criticism of the WR corps is unfair. I assume that claim is motivated by the idea that if you convince people, the WRs are good, then you can blame Jones for the lack of offensive production.
Yet, you guys often also fault DJ for "not elevating the players around him." When I suggest that perhaps the receiver production of the revolving motley cast of PS players, low-round draft picks, and street-free agents is proof of player elevation, all I get is a "could be" and a long lecture about how I am contradicting myself.
Quote from: T200 on December 20, 2022, 03:24:26 PMTwo questions:
1) What do you consider to be a reasonable offer for Jones?
2) Would you be upset if Schoen makes that offer to Jones but Jones goes to another team for more money?
For me, $20 million per year for 3 years is reasonable.
No, I would not be upset if he takes more money from another team.
I'd be more in the camp of two years for $30-$35mm (total). That would make him the 15th highest paid QB in 2022 in terms of AAV. That seems more than reasonable to me. What evidence is there that he is significantly better than average?
More than two years seems too long to me as I'm not convinced Jones is a guy you build around for the long haul. He is a capable game manager with plus athletic ability but not a franchise QB in my opinion. If the contract were more than two years I would want a clear out after the second year.
Here we go again. Another non-Jones thread derailed into another never ending Daniel Jones debate. Take it to the Jones thread that couldn't be any louder and brighter at the top of page 1. :boooo:
James 4 catches 42 yards
Hodgins 4 catches 37 yards
Barkley 5 catches 33 yards
Slayton 5 catches 23 yards
Jones average pass was 5 yards and his EPA or expected points added per pass on each throw was .04 as Jones averaged 5 yards a throw, his average Air Yards was like 3.4 and he on average threw in 5.2 yards short of the first down.
So Elevated. Outside the 91 yard drive our offense basically did absolutely nothing all game until the Barkley drive late in the game. This is not just on the QB but the offense as a whole. If anyone is content with a 160 yards passing every week then so be it but that's horrible. As it stands the defense will have to carry this team into the playoffs.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 20, 2022, 03:33:05 PMHere we go again. Another non-Jones thread derailed into another never ending Daniel Jones debate. Take it to the Jones thread that couldn't be any louder and brighter at the top of page 1. :boooo:
Comment wasn't even about Jones directly but more at the concept of football being a team game and how a QB's play could impact a WR's production and vice versa.
Quote from: T200 on December 20, 2022, 03:24:26 PMTwo questions:
1) What do you consider to be a reasonable offer for Jones?
2) Would you be upset if Schoen makes that offer to Jones but Jones goes to another team for more money?
For me, $20 million per year for 3 years is reasonable.
No, I would not be upset if he takes more money from another team.
If there is a QB the Front Office loves it's not even a question that I'd just let him walk.
If they don't and just need someone to start next season I offer Jones a similar deal to what Jamie's Winston got in New Orleans which is 2 years $28 million. Anything over $20 million AAV is a massive overpay based upon what he's done in his 4 seasons as QB.
Quote from: T200 on December 20, 2022, 03:24:26 PMTwo questions:
1) What do you consider to be a reasonable offer for Jones?
2) Would you be upset if Schoen makes that offer to Jones but Jones goes to another team for more money?
For me, $20 million per year for 3 years is reasonable.
No, I would not be upset if he takes more money from another team.
If you could have Jones at 3yr 60 million or one of Mayfield, White, Brissett, Jimmy G, Heiniecke, or Rush for 7 million a year until we find our guy which one are you taking? All those guys played good football this year at points when they played and are expected to make a 1/4th of what Jones is supposed to make. Is Jones worth an additional 13-15 million over those guys? They are all free agents this offseason, I left geno off because he'll likely make more.
Jimmy G coming off major injury and is 32. No
Mike white has 1 good and has superior weapons and still struggles.
Brisset has never won anywhere he went and again - superior weapons
Mayfield - epitome of average and a locker room cancer
Rush sucks.
Heinicke? No thanks. Again - plays with superior weapons.
None of these guys are better than Jones so taking a step backwards makes no sense.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 20, 2022, 03:28:36 PMWell, we know the narrative Jones critics like yourself are pushing. You claim that the criticism of the WR corps is unfair. I assume that claim is motivated by the idea that if you convince people, the WRs are good, then you can blame Jones for the lack of offensive production.
Yet, you guys often also fault DJ for "not elevating the players around him." When I suggest that perhaps the receiver production of the revolving motley cast of PS players, low-round draft picks, and street-free agents is proof of player elevation, all I get is a "could be" and a long lecture about how I am contradicting myself.
Again I'm just not sure what exactly you're asking me to give him credit for. A couple of our receivers (James is the subject of this thread so I'll key on him in this post) had a couple of plays that they looked decent on. No Giant receiver even had 50 yards in this game, and overall our passing offense put up 160 yards on 32 attempts (5.0 YPA) and no touchdowns. It is unclear to me why you're put off by the fact that I'm not rushing to give Jones credit for either his or the receivers' performance in this game. By any rational measure our passing offense was poor, and we won this game for other reasons.
I have never bought into the narrative that our receivers are horrible. I certainly don't think they are good either. I think they're below average and we clearly lack a number one receiver, but we have NFL caliber players in this receiver room who are capable of making plays. So when a Richie James has a scrappy 42 yards and perhaps a nice play or two on specials, that's decent for him, but I'm not sure why I am expected to jump to heap credit on Jones for that.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 04:52:37 PMJimmy G coming off major injury and is 32. No
Mike white has 1 good and has superior weapons and still struggles.
Brisset has never won anywhere he went and again - superior weapons
Mayfield - epitome of average and a locker room cancer
Rush sucks.
Heinicke? No thanks. Again - plays with superior weapons.
None of these guys are better than Jones so taking a step backwards makes no sense.
If it came down to either those guys or giving Jones a contract that paid him $25-$30+ million AAV would you do it? Obviously a hypothetical
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 03:32:27 PMI'd be more in the camp of two years for $30-$35mm (total). That would make him the 15th highest paid QB in 2022 in terms of AAV. That seems more than reasonable to me. What evidence is there that he is significantly better than average?
More than two years seems too long to me as I'm not convinced Jones is a guy you build around for the long haul. He is a capable game manager with plus athletic ability but not a franchise QB in my opinion. If the contract were more than two years I would want a clear out after the second year.
If it's going to cost over 30mm then they should franchise tag him. There isn't a QB in this draft that they can reach who would be able to play year one. I think they do that and build a better team around him and see how he progresses.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 04:54:21 PMAgain I'm just not sure what exactly you're asking me to give him credit for. A couple of our receivers (James is the subject of this thread so I'll key on him in this post) had a couple of plays that they looked decent on. No Giant receiver even had 50 yards in this game, and overall our passing offense put up 160 yards on 32 attempts (5.0 YPA) and no touchdowns. It is unclear to me why you're put off by the fact that I'm not rushing to give Jones credit for either his or the receivers' performance in this game. By any rational measure our passing offense was poor, and we won this game for other reasons.
I have never bought into the narrative that our receivers are horrible. I certainly don't think they are good either. I think they're below average and we clearly lack a number one receiver, but we have NFL caliber players in this receiver room who are capable of making plays. So when a Richie James has a scrappy 42 yards and perhaps a nice play or two on specials, that's decent for him, but I'm not sure why I am expected to jump to heap credit on Jones for that.
I think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:14:16 PMI think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.
I stand by my comments. I don't think 160 passing yards for a 5.0 YPA and no touchdowns is a good performance by an NFL passing offense in a game. If you disagree, then we can respectfully agree to disagree.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:14:16 PMI think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.
It was a decent drive, perhaps he deserves some credit not for that drive but maybe a few throws. But how did that drive end? Did he throw a TD or punch it in with his legs? I can't credit him an entire drive if he was not the one that sealed the deal at the end of it.
That drive was roughly half of his production the whole game. Coupled with 13 total points on offense, and none of those scoring plays involving him, what does that say about his performance every other drive and the game as a whole? Does he really deserve as much credit as you think he does?
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 04:52:37 PMJimmy G coming off major injury and is 32. No
Mike white has 1 good and has superior weapons and still struggles.
Brisset has never won anywhere he went and again - superior weapons
Mayfield - epitome of average and a locker room cancer
Rush sucks.
Heinicke? No thanks. Again - plays with superior weapons.
None of these guys are better than Jones so taking a step backwards makes no sense.
Brisset has Identical stats as Jones despite playing in 3 less games and will be 15 million a year cheaper... How's that not option..
Baker Mayfield who you called the epitome of average has significantly better numbers his first 4 years than Jones and its not even close... sooo does that make Jones below average?
Cooper rushes stats were almost identical to Jones in that span so by your definition Jones would suck?
Heinicke is basically on par with Jones since Heinicke started..
So again your argument is flawed as all those Qbs have put up numbers better or comparable than Jones and can be had for significantly less, if Jones is just a two year rental anyway why wouldn't we pay less for the same production and build out the roster?
I'm leaning towards the position that they have too many holes, starting and depth, to afford the luxury of a relatively high paid QB and RB. I won't be upset if they let then both go and use the CAP space to sign some good players in the lower value positions, maybe 2 FA ILBs, of which there will be a number to choose from. Maybe a couple of IOLs. A safety. An RB. Maybe a rotational pass rusher. Maybe a mid-price WR. Then use the draft to go after higher value positions like WR and CB. And fill out the draft with guys who provide depth who might develop into starters.
Then play Tyrod for 2023 and, with a more solid roster, go all-in for the QB in the 2024 draft that they like.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 05:20:26 PMBrisset has Identical stats as Jones despite playing in 3 less games and will be 15 million a year cheaper... How's that not option..
Baker Mayfield who you called the epitome of average has significantly better numbers his first 4 years than Jones and its not even close... sooo does that make Jones below average?
Cooper rushes stats were almost identical to Jones in that span so by your definition Jones would suck?
Heinicke is basically on par with Jones since Heinicke started..
So again your argument is flawed as all those Qbs have put up numbers better or comparable than Jones and can be had for significantly less, if Jones is just a two year rental anyway why wouldn't we pay less for the same production and build out the roster?
You always completely ignore surrounding casts. So posting stats has very little meaning. Not one of them plays with an equal or worst cast than Jones.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 05:19:14 PMIt was a decent drive, perhaps he deserves some credit not for that drive but maybe a few throws. But how did that drive end? Did he throw a TD or punch it in with his legs? I can't credit him an entire drive if he was not the one that sealed the deal at the end of it.
That drive was roughly half of his production the whole game. Coupled with 13 total points on offense, and none of those scoring plays involving him, what does that say about his performance every other drive and the game as a whole? Does he really deserve as much credit as you think he does?
Wait a sec... so Jones basically drives down the entire field. Makes a huge 4th down throw. And since Barkley takes it from the 2 yard line - he doesn't deserve much credit?
That's really really harsh. I am sorry.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 20, 2022, 04:55:35 PMIf it came down to either those guys or giving Jones a contract that paid him $25-$30+ million AAV would you do it? Obviously a hypothetical
Yes I'd take Jones at somewhere around 25 million over those guys but nothing more than 2 years.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:38:19 PMYes I'd take Jones at somewhere around 25 million over those guys but nothing more than 2 years.
Agree to disagree. Appreciate the response.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:37:12 PMWait a sec... so Jones basically drives down the entire field. Makes a huge 4th down throw. And since Barkley takes it from the 2 yard line - he doesn't deserve much credit?
That's really really harsh. I am sorry.
Harsh? That is your opinion, if you think differently, you are certainly entitled to that. To each their own.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 05:49:15 PMHarsh? That is your opinion, if you think differently, you are certainly entitled to that. To each their own.
Yeah harsh. The guy account for 93 yards on the drive but shouldn't get that much credit? Lol.
That's like saying Barkley taking one 90 yards to the 3 yard line but since Jones took it in the next play that Barkley shouldn't get any credit either... haha
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 20, 2022, 05:43:24 PMAgree to disagree. Appreciate the response.
No worries. I just don't see why posters want to downgrade at QB. I am at no liberty of giving Jones a 4-5 year deal. But a two year deal still lets you draft a qb and still build the team.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 05:19:14 PMIt was a decent drive, perhaps he deserves some credit not for that drive but maybe a few throws. But how did that drive end? Did he throw a TD or punch it in with his legs? I can't credit him an entire drive if he was not the one that sealed the deal at the end of it.
That drive was roughly half of his production the whole game. Coupled with 13 total points on offense, and none of those scoring plays involving him, what does that say about his performance every other drive and the game as a whole? Does he really deserve as much credit as you think he does?
If a 97 yard drive is just a decent drive I'd love to know what it takes for you to call a drive good.
And saying that the drive had something to do with the win is giving him too much credit?
I have to say that the notion that the only things a QB really deserves credit for is being part of the scoring play is unusual. So since he covered the last 3 yards on a TD run, does Barkley get the credit for the drive?
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:57:34 PMNo worries. I just don't see why posters want to downgrade at QB. I am at no liberty of giving Jones a 4-5 year deal. But a two year deal still lets you draft a qb and still build the team.
I don't think it's that anyone wants to downgrade but rather you disagreeing with others on Daniel Jones being better/worse than others.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:54:14 PMYeah harsh. The guy account for 93 yards on the drive but shouldn't get that much credit? Lol.
That's like saying Barkley taking one 90 yards to the 3 yard line but since Jones took it in the next play that Barkley shouldn't get any credit either... haha
Again, to each their own. You have your opinion and are more than entitles to have it.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:58:38 PMIf a 97 yard drive is just a decent drive I'd love to know what it takes for you to call a drive good.
And saying that the drive had something to do with the win is giving him too much credit?
I have to say that the notion that the only things a QB really deserves credit for is being part of the scoring play is unusual. So since he covered the last 3 yards on a TD run, does Barkley get the credit for the drive?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=decent
Anyway, again, I gave him credit for a few of the nice throws he made on 3rd and 4th downs, they moved the chains. But all the 2 yard dinks and dunks inbetween are noting special.
Like many others, I don't think Jones is bad. I just don't feel he is good enough to win a SB. I don't view a Tyrod, Brissett, etc in 2023 to be a step back or downgrade, I think it is a lateral move at a much lower cost. Allowing more flexibility for building a good roster for the next QB, perhaps in 2024 unless they really love someone this year. But hey if they resign Jones, I will root for him and hope to hell he proves me wrong and I will happily eat some crow.
I mean even now I root for him to prove me wrong, because I want my team to succeed now and sustainably in the future.
How do we know Brisset and Taylor are lateral moves? Brisset never has been good. Are you just looking at stats or did you watch him extensively this year?
I mean this coaching staff doesn't think Taylor is as good or better cause there was never a QB competition.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 06:34:46 PMHow do we know Brisset and Taylor are lateral moves? Brisset never has been good. Are you just looking at stats or did you watch him extensively this year?
I mean this coaching staff doesn't think Taylor is as good or better cause there was never a QB competition.
How do you know they aren't lateral moves? No one is trying to change your opinions on DJ yet you continue to try to pick a fight. You can think he is the future, I can think he isn't, and the world will go round all the same.
A point I'd like to add to the discussion is there was a 3rd and 9 throw that DJ made from the back of the end zone, and he put it right on the numbers for Bellinger, and he dropped it.
That drop in the 3rd quarter killed the drive, forced them to punt, and stopped a potential long drive that would have added even more yardage to DJ's total. So, he could have thrown for more yardage than if his supporting cast came through, just something to think about.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on December 20, 2022, 07:45:07 PMA point I'd like to add to the discussion is there was a 3rd and 9 throw that DJ made from the back of the end zone, and he put it right on the numbers for Bellinger, and he dropped it.
That drop in the 3rd quarter killed the drive, forced them to punt, and stopped a potential long drive that would have added even more yardage to DJ's total. So, he could have thrown for more yardage than if his supporting cast came through, just something to think about.
SXD,
True, but we can always play the woulda/coulda/shoulda game in both directions. Jones has had some very poor throws this year that were right in the hands of opposing players but were dropped picks. He has also had some great throws that were dropped by his guys. The reality is that in pretty much any game, and certainly countless times over the course of a season, there are numerous plays that could have, and perhaps should have, gone very differently than what actually happened. And that's true for every QB. The reality is that this stuff tends to even out over time, and the large sample size data really doesn't lie.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 07:44:49 PMHow do you know they aren't lateral moves? No one is trying to change your opinions on DJ yet you continue to try to pick a fight. You can think he is the future, I can think he isn't, and the world will go round all the same.
1. Asking a question isn't picking a fight.
2. Never once did I say he was the future as a matter of fact I've said plenty of times I would not sign him to anything more than a 2 year deal.
3. I seriously doubt you know what my opinion of him is.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on December 20, 2022, 07:45:07 PMA point I'd like to add to the discussion is there was a 3rd and 9 throw that DJ made from the back of the end zone, and he put it right on the numbers for Bellinger, and he dropped it.
That drop in the 3rd quarter killed the drive, forced them to punt, and stopped a potential long drive that would have added even more yardage to DJ's total. So, he could have thrown for more yardage than if his supporting cast came through, just something to think about.
That throw was not on the numbers...it literally hit his back shoulder, as he was running the opposite direction; it should have been in front of him as there wasn't a defender to avoid. Throwing the ball in front of him, with more touch, would have made an easier catch and maximized YAC. To be clear, an above average TE, which I think Daniel is, should have caught that ball. Interesting, it wasn't charged as a drop. Still to classify that throw as "right on the numbers" is not factually accurate. It's also pointless to play the 'should of' game as it all equals out by seasons end...
Finally, one drive, which I thought DJ was great, and one 'dropped' catch, doesn't equate to an effective day. Over the last 4 seasons, the Giants are one of the leagues objectively worst offenses, with a passing attack that's consistently ranked in the bottom 4; DJ is a significant portion of said offense. One drive, and 'should of' play doesn't absolve him of his aggregate performance..
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 20, 2022, 05:13:54 PMIf it's going to cost over 30mm then they should franchise tag him. There isn't a QB in this draft that they can reach who would be able to play year one. I think they do that and build a better team around him and see how he progresses.
I meant $30-$35mm over two years total, not per year.
The Bellinger throw was not a drop nor a great pass either. However one thing I'd like Bellinger to learn with experience - as he is cutting in, to look for the ball as he cutting. It may have given him a better chance to catch it.
But it certainly wasn't that great of a pass.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 05:35:42 PMYou always completely ignore surrounding casts. So posting stats has very little meaning. Not one of them plays with an equal or worst cast than Jones.
If the surrounding cast is so important as you clearly think it is why would we then pay Jones. In that scenario we would let Tyrod or one of those cheaper qbs play and build up the surrounding cast?? See how the argument falls apart? Because If we pay Jones 25-30 million a year we can't afford to go out and retool the entire wr core..
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 08:28:45 PMIf the surrounding cast is so important as you clearly think it is why would we then pay Jones. In that scenario we would let Tyrod or one of those cheaper qbs play and build up the surrounding cast?? See how the argument falls apart? Because If we pay Jones 25-30 million a year we can't afford to go out and retool the entire wr core..
No it doesn't fall apart because Jones is better than Taylor.
And yes we can still retool - our cap is in amazing shape and we have the draft still.
I still haven't seen someone give a viable options to improve the QB. Journeyman QBs, washed up QBs, aren't appeasing. If you want to go through the draft? Great. But you'll have to give up a lot to get a guy to come in right away and play or else you're letting a kid and learn. Which isn't a bad idea if we sign Jones to a two year deal.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 20, 2022, 05:28:39 PMI'm leaning towards the position that they have too many holes, starting and depth, to afford the luxury of a relatively high paid QB and RB. I won't be upset if they let then both go and use the CAP space to sign some good players in the lower value positions, maybe 2 FA ILBs, of which there will be a number to choose from. Maybe a couple of IOLs. A safety. An RB. Maybe a rotational pass rusher. Maybe a mid-price WR. Then use the draft to go after higher value positions like WR and CB. And fill out the draft with guys who provide depth who might develop into starters.
Then play Tyrod for 2023 and, with a more solid roster, go all-in for the QB in the 2024 draft that they like.
I would be a 100% down for that. I'd even be on board for a 1yr Jones contract, but that 2024 draft will have some amazing QB talent. I think we can reinforce the lines IOL, Dline, and Mike in this FA and Wr/Corner in the draft, then there will be a ton of FA #1Wrs in 2024 if needed then grab a Qb to go with.
Nice summary.
I am always weary of building through FA. That's how you get Nate solders, Kenny golladays of the world. Building through the draft is a much better idea.
And remember just because we may want a guy at a certain position - doesn't mean they want us. A player may see us getting rid of our two best skill offensive players and look the other way.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:35:59 PMNo it doesn't fall apart because Jones is better than Taylor.
And yes we can still retool - our cap is in amazing shape and we have the draft still.
I still haven't seen someone give a viable options to improve the QB. Journeyman QBs, washed up QBs, aren't appeasing. If you want to go through the draft? Great. But you'll have to give up a lot to get a guy to come in right away and play or else you're letting a kid and learn. Which isn't a bad idea if we sign Jones to a two year deal.
Regardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game. I don't think Jones is horrible but he's not the longterm answer, so why retain him and pay significant capital when at least 8-10 backups can come in and give you the same yardage and Tds. We know what Jones is at this point he's 2900 yards 12-15 passing Tds and a few Ints, we don't need to pay 25 or 30 a year for that when we can use tyrod, or one of those cheap veterans to replicate the production until we find our guy. Every team that has kept their average to above avg Qb has within a year or two drafted the person to replace him because it was a mistake. Tannehill, Goff, and Jinmy G all signed and shortly there after drafted their replacements because it wasn't a good longterm move. I'd argue those 3 Qbs are better than Jones.
3800 yards 20 TD's and 5 interceptions with the Offense the Giants are running isn't bad. 66% completion % and he hasn't lost any games for this team. You have to count his rushing totals to the passing numbers.
Right now DJ has a 99% chance of coming back next year. It would take a monumental breakdown to change that.
Furthermore they love him and he loves them. It would take crazy money for him to leave this situation and have to start over yet again. He will take less to stay here in my opinion.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 08:51:15 PMRegardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game.
You're stating this as it's a fact. It's not. We could actually be much worse with them. Again, you're ignoring supporting casts and not even bringing Jones rushing into the fold.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 08:03:09 PMI meant $30-$35mm over two years total, not per year.
With the increase in the salary cap - we are looking at a $30M per year QB salary. Perhaps DJ will take less money so the Giants can fit others into the Cap. Let's hope Abrams can weave his magic.
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Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:42:26 PMI am always weary of building through FA. That's how you get Nate solders, Kenny golladays of the world. Building through the draft is a much better idea.
And remember just because we may want a guy at a certain position - doesn't mean they want us. A player may see us getting rid of our two best skill offensive players and look the other way.
Well put. I am also reluctant to try the Draft to get your QB. Look no further than the Jets who tried to bench the 2nd pick in the Draft. Schoen knows full well that putting your eggs in the Draft for your QB is a major gamble.
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Quote from: todge on December 20, 2022, 10:03:06 PMWell put. I am also reluctant to try the Draft to get your QB. Look no further than the Jets who tried to bench the 2nd pick in the Draft. Schoen knows full well that putting your eggs in the Draft for your QB is a major gamble.
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So, the Giants should stick with a mid-tier QB because of fear they might draft the wrong guy? Great, we'll hold on to our guy while those teams with a top tier QB (e.g. KC, Phili, Cinci, and Buff) play championship football every year. It's a good thing you weren't KCs GM when they decided to move on from Alex Smith and draft Mahomes. Under your strategy, that would have never happened; same with Phili and Balt, In fact, I can't think of a team in the last decade that kept thier mid-tier QB who won a SB, or played consistent football. Staying with a known commodity out of fear is not an effective strategy and will ultimately get you fired...
Quote from: kingm56 on December 20, 2022, 10:19:20 PMSo, the Giants should stick with a mid-tier QB because of fear they might draft the wrong guy? Great, we'll hold on to our guy while those teams with a top tier QB (e.g. KC, Phili, Cinci, and Buff) play championship football every year. It's a good thing you weren't KCs GM when they decided to move on from Alex Smith and draft Mahomes. Under your strategy, that would have never happened; same with Phili and Balt, In fact, I can't think of a team in the last decade that kept thier mid-tier QB who won a SB, or played consistent football. Staying with a known commodity out of fear is not an effective strategy and will ultimately get you fired...
KC built their team up and added Mahoney as the final piece. In fact, smith was a playoff QB. We can do the same thing as they did. Sign Jones for two years and see if there's a QB worth taking. And don't forget Mahomes sat an entire year. The KC model you referenced is actually a method worth following and keeping Jones would be a part of it.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 10:52:38 PMKC built their team up and added Mahoney as the final piece. In fact, smith was a playoff QB. We can do the same thing as they did. Sign Jones for two years and see if there's a QB worth taking. And don't forget Mahomes sat an entire year. The KC model you referenced is actually a method worth following and keeping Jones would be a part of it.
Alex Smith was a pro bowl, above-average QB, that TWO teams replaced while he in his prime. Each team made the SB the year following Smith. That's the point, in the modern era, you're unlikely to win SBs with a mid-tier guy. If it were up to Todge, they would have stuck with Alex Smith. To be clear, I understand circumstances (e.g. terrible 2022 QB draft class and relative 2023 draft standing) may dictate franchising, transition tagging, or offering a 2/3 year deal; however, that's not what many are advocating for...they want a multi-year, franchise-type deal. I'm opposed to that strategy.
BTW, Mahomes wasn't the final piece, he IS the piece...he's what makes it go. KC has literally flipped 90% of the roster between Mahomes first year and this year. The WR corps is 100% different, with only Kelce remaining. If you get the right QB, you're going to win, independent of the majority of the surrounding cast. Like the Pats with Brady, KC will be competitive every year Mahomes is under center, with or without a big name WR and/or stud LT.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 20, 2022, 11:02:54 PMAlex Smith was a pro bowl, above-average QB, that TWO teams replaced while he in his prime. Each team made the SB the year following Smith. That's the point, in the modern era, you're unlikely to win SBs with a mid-tier guy. If it were up to Todge, they would have stuck with Alex Smith. To be clear, I understand circumstances (e.g. terrible 2022 QB draft class and relative 2023 draft standing) may dictate franchising, transition tagging, or offering a 2/3 year deal; however, that's not what many are advocating for...they want a multi-year, franchise-type deal. I'm opposed to that strategy.
BTW, Mahomes wasn't the final piece, he IS the piece...he's what makes it go. KC has literally flipped 90% of the roster between Mahomes first year and this year. The WR corps is 100% different, with only Kelce remaining. If you get the right QB, you're going to win, independent of the majority of the surrounding cast. Like the Pats with Brady, KC will be competitive every year Mahomes is under center, with or without a big name WR and/or stud LT.
If there's a Patrick Mahomes that Schoen and Dabol think is in this draft - then of course you let Jones walk and go through hell and high water to get Mahomes.
But if they don't think there is - continue to build the team. That's why if Jones is signed to a short deal (no more than 2 years) - you can still get better and still get the QB in the near future.
Now let's say they think Richardson or Levis is THAT guy - then go get them. I am ruling out Young and Stroud cause I don't think they are in reach.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 07:44:49 PMHow do you know they aren't lateral moves? No one is trying to change your opinions on DJ yet you continue to try to pick a fight. You can think he is the future, I can think he isn't, and the world will go round all the same.
He wasn't trying to pick a fight. You made some claims and he asked you what did you observe to draw those conclusions.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 20, 2022, 09:05:56 PM3800 yards 20 TD's and 5 interceptions with the Offense the Giants are running isn't bad. 66% completion % and he hasn't lost any games for this team. You have to count his rushing totals to the passing numbers.
Right now DJ has a 99% chance of coming back next year. It would take a monumental breakdown to change that.
Furthermore they love him and he loves them. It would take crazy money for him to leave this situation and have to start over yet again. He will take less to stay here in my opinion.
Ed,
I think there are a lot of quality points in this post. I will say though, that if a team with a better support system in terms of O-line and receivers offers DJ a good contract, he might be a fool to pass it up. The Giants still have a lot of work to do, talent-wise and there is nothing to say that receiver and interior O-line will be the priority or if they have enough cap space and draft capital to address all those needs.
Quote from: AP44 on December 20, 2022, 08:42:26 PMI am always weary of building through FA. That's how you get Nate solders, Kenny golladays of the world. Building through the draft is a much better idea.
And remember just because we may want a guy at a certain position - doesn't mean they want us. A player may see us getting rid of our two best skill offensive players and look the other way.
Seems to me the best use of cap space is to retain talent rather than try and bring in big-ticket free agents.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 20, 2022, 08:51:15 PMRegardless of whether you think so or not, Brissett, Tyrod, Mayfield etc are right with Jones. Jones has managed some games well but only about 60% this season. we're not winning Because of him, we could bring In any of Mayfield, Brisset, Jimmy G, or a rookie to replicate 160-190 yards a game. I don't think Jones is horrible but he's not the longterm answer, so why retain him and pay significant capital when at least 8-10 backups can come in and give you the same yardage and Tds. We know what Jones is at this point he's 2900 yards 12-15 passing Tds and a few Ints, we don't need to pay 25 or 30 a year for that when we can use tyrod, or one of those cheap veterans to replicate the production until we find our guy. Every team that has kept their average to above avg Qb has within a year or two drafted the person to replace him because it was a mistake. Tannehill, Goff, and Jinmy G all signed and shortly there after drafted their replacements because it wasn't a good longterm move. I'd argue those 3 Qbs are better than Jones.
I don't know how you can make that claim like it's a fact (the part in bold). I mean why not claim Darnold is right up there with Mahomes?
In my opinion, comparing QBs is not as easy as people believe it to be. Too much of their performance is impacted by their protection, receiving targets/playmakers, and coaching/scheme.
A perfect example is the Patriot's, Mac Jones.
As a rookie, he put up a 92.5 QB rating and a 56.9 QBR
Then he gets Daniel Jones' old head coach (for the past 2 seasons)
His numbers drop to 82.6 QB rating and 30.7 QBR
Do you think Mac Jones forgot how to play QB?
Brian Daboll goes in-depth on Daniel Jones. This goes well beyond typical coach speak
Q: Where are you on (quarterback) Daniel (Jones) and the steps he's taken under your staff's tutelage this season?
A: Well, give Daniel credit, first and foremost. He's an extremely hard worker. I think he understands what we're trying to accomplish each week. Every week, it's a little bit different. But he works extremely hard. He studies. He understands the teams that we're playing, and he makes good decisions for what we ask him to do. Last week was a little bit different than the week before. He's taking care of the football. He's done a good job.
Q: In your experience, how difficult is it for a quarterback who has either a fumbling, an interception issue or a turnover issue to correct that because it seems like, generally speaking, he's done that.
A: Give credit to him. He's got to take care of the ball in the pocket, and he's got to be the one to make good decisions when he's under pressure. I think (quarterbacks coach) Shea (Tierney) has done a really great job with him in the quarterback room. We try to do things that accentuate his strengths. I think he can throw it on all three levels, but there's a way to play each game against each opponent based on what they have defensively, how their rush is, what their corners look like. He's done a good job of operating and executing our offense.
Q: You come from a place where you've experienced a quarterback being a really popular guy in the locker room. It certainly seems like Daniel (Jones) has won over teammates and is highly respected. How much does that matter?
A: I think when I got here, just talking to some of the skill guys and even the defensive guys, they've always had that respect for Daniel because of the way he approaches his job, he's a true pro. And he's a good leader. I know he's kind of a quiet guy. But in the huddle, he's a good leader with those guys. He knows everybody's responsibilities. He can get things lined up; he can correct mistakes. He's a problem solver. So, I think the guys have a lot of respect for him.
Q: The turnover thing, obviously, was a thing early in his career. What do you make of him having – he's thrown four interceptions, the fewest of any quarterback in the NFL this year that's played most of their team's games. What do you make of that?
A: That's good.
Q: What do you attribute it to? Why do you think there's been such a drastic shift there?
A: Well, again, like I was saying: I think he works at it. I think Shea has done a great job. We have certain reads and things in our offense that we teach. And he just goes out and executes well. So, he's done everything that we've asked him to do in terms of the things that we need to do each game. Again, it's never going to be perfect. It's a hard position to play. I think he's got some confidence. We have confidence in him. We just put together a game plan that we think will work well for us as a team but (also will) work well for him, too, as a quarterback.
Q: Do you think there's more upside to him? A lot of times when somebody's that far along in their career, they'll say, 'oh, that's their ceiling".
A: Well, I don't think he's that far along in his career as a quarterback. Again, it's a tough position to play. I can just go by the guys that I've had the last few years. One, I was with him for four years and each year we took a little bit of a step, and you always give credit to the players. His ability to grasp information and then go out there and perform it with what we're asking him to do, I'm not sure the other years he's been here, I think he's made steps each way. Certainly, things to improve on but conscientious, hardworking, tough, competitor. Those are good qualities to have at that position.
Q: The flip side is you've had the fewest 20+ yard pass plays. How much of that do you view as situational, personnel, what do you attribute that to?
A: We always have a gameplan each week. Go into a game of how we want to play it and his job is to make the right decisions. So, if it's to throw a quick game or take an underneath route, he's done a good job of putting the ball where we want him to put it. We certainly would like more explosive plays, that helps you score more points, but he's doing what we ask him to do.
Q: A lot of times guys on the outside have these fiery dispositions. Daniel is not that guy.
A: Oh, I thought you were talking about me (laughs).
Q: Well that we all know, but Daniel's not that way. Does that not tell the whole story about Daniel?
A: Yeah, he's a competitor and I think that's why his teammates respect him so much. I think he's just very levelheaded and that helps too when sometimes there's chaos in the game; whether that's in the pocket, whether you're down. I think he's really been the model of consistency with his attitude and his approach and that's what I appreciate about him.
Quote from: todge on December 20, 2022, 09:59:12 PMWith the increase in the salary cap - we are looking at a $30M per year QB salary. Perhaps DJ will take less money so the Giants can fit others into the Cap. Let's hope Abrams can weave his magic.
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That depends if Abrams is retained in his position after being shifted out of the role he had in 2021. Schoen and Brown may want to bring in someone else to manage the cap.
Quote from: todge on December 20, 2022, 10:03:06 PMWell put. I am also reluctant to try the Draft to get your QB. Look no further than the Jets who tried to bench the 2nd pick in the Draft. Schoen knows full well that putting your eggs in the Draft for your QB is a major gamble.
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He does. He came from an organization that traded up to draft their QB in 2018 which has worked out pretty well for that team.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 09:02:59 AMVery true the draft is how the Giants ended up with their current QB
This is true, and Jones may very well be the best of the bunch that year.
1 1 Arizona Cardinals Kyler Murray † QB Oklahoma
1 6 New York Giants Daniel Jones QB Duke ACC
1 15 Washington Redskins Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State
2 42 Denver Broncos Drew Lock QB Missouri SEC
3* 100 Carolina Panthers Will Grier QB West Virginia
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 09:09:54 AMThis is true, and Jones may very well be the best of the bunch that year.
1 1 Arizona Cardinals Kyler Murray † QB Oklahoma
1 6 New York Giants Daniel Jones QB Duke ACC
1 15 Washington Redskins Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State
2 42 Denver Broncos Drew Lock QB Missouri SEC
3* 100 Carolina Panthers Will Grier QB West Virginia
Just goes to show the best in each draft doesn't = success!
We can do worse!
Is this upcoming draft comparable better or worse than the draft above??
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 10:13:44 AMJust goes to show the best in each draft doesn't = success!
We can do worse!
Is this upcoming draft comparable better or worse than the draft above??
The 2017 draft was thought to be a weak draft for QB's yet Mahomes went 10th and Watson went 12th. You never know and there isn't an exact science to it. You would just have to hope that if this Giants regime does go QB in the 1st round of the 2023 draft that they end up with the right guy.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 10:17:23 AMThe 2017 draft was thought to be a weak draft for QB's yet Mahomes went 10th and Watson went 12th. You never know and there isn't an exact science to it. You would just have to hope that if this Giants regime does go QB in the 1st round of the 2023 draft that they end up with the right guy.
Exactly! A lot more luck I think goes into this sometimes than anything else.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 10:29:54 AMExactly! A lot more luck I think goes into this sometimes than anything else.
It's really not luck. They have to have an eye for QB evaluation and they have to do their due diligence. Take the highly touted draft of Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Jackson. It was very clear what was there. Mayfield short with character/maturity issues. Rosen work ethic/leadership issues. Darnold wildly erratic with poor decision making, Allen cannon arm, mobile but poor mechanics on a bad team. Jackson, weak arm but extremely mobile and a fit for the right offense.
I was never a fan of Murray and the entire draft class looked weak. Still Jones was the at or near the top of that class and it was evident in that last bowl game. Quite frankly if he was in most other teams he wouldn't have gotten this far. Most QB never get nurtured and properly developed and teams give up on them. Mara was in love with this kid. He was the next Eli Manning. Looked the part and played the part.
Sometimes a QB has strong character strengths and is resilient like Geno Smith who was dealt a xxxx hand. It was obvious to me the game he came in for Eli that this kid had game. Wrong place, wrong time and wrong organization (and I'll leave it at that).
I have to say that I'm not sold on Jones as a long term solution but I am very impressed with how he has worked through his challenges and weaknesses and this team can do a hell of a lot worse. He still has processing issues and the alarm factor comes in on pressure and his peripheral vision may be a liability but this kid has resilience and a strong desire to succeed. And I wouldn't bet against that, especially with an organization who completely and wholeheartedly supports him. A man like that has a higher ceiling than I or anyone else gives him credit for.
https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1605618326868152320
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 08:00:51 AMI don't know how you can make that claim like it's a fact (the part in bold). I mean why not claim Darnold is right up there with Mahomes?
In my opinion, comparing QBs is not as easy as people believe it to be. Too much of their performance is impacted by their protection, receiving targets/playmakers, and coaching/scheme.
A perfect example is the Patriot's, Mac Jones.
As a rookie, he put up a 92.5 QB rating and a 56.9 QBR
Then he gets Daniel Jones' old head coach (for the past 2 seasons)
His numbers drop to 82.6 QB rating and 30.7 QBR
Do you think Mac Jones forgot how to play QB?
So statically when they've started Brissett, Mayfield, and Tyrod haven't put up comparable numbers to Jones yes or no? They have so I'm not sure why you're questioning it. Mayfield put up a baseline stats before they got him help like OBJ etc, Tyrod played with a roster similar to the Giants in Buffalo and put up similar numbers. Brisset despite playing less games has 2,608 yards 12TD 6int and an 88.9 rating to Jones' 2,694 yards 12 tds 4 Int 90.5 rating. Jones has played 3 more games. So you're telling me honestly that with daboll/Kafka and the offense as currently constructed you don't think those 3 could average 180 yards and 1 Td a game?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 21, 2022, 01:25:12 PMSo statically when they've started Brissett, Mayfield, and Tyrod haven't put up comparable numbers to Jones yes or no? They have so I'm not sure why you're questioning it. Mayfield put up a baseline stats before they got him help like OBJ etc, Tyrod played with a roster similar to the Giants in Buffalo and put up similar numbers. Brisset despite playing less games has 2,608 yards 12TD 6int and an 88.9 rating to Jones' 2,694 yards 12 tds 4 Int 90.5 rating. Jones has played 3 more games. So you're telling me honestly that with daboll/Kafka and the offense as currently constructed you don't think those 3 could average 180 yards and 1 Td a game?
Jess,
I think you are asking the wrong question, in my opinion. Your question assumes there is no improvement in the QB supporting case from year 1 to year 2. I think we can expect a significant improvement and with that improvement, we will see increases in the raw numbers. With the improvement and the increased raw stats, I don't see the two QBs you mention creating the same increase in stats next season. Neither of the QBs you mentioned is as talented (in this season and next0 as Daniel Jones has demonstrated.
So the QBs you mentioned could likely average 180 yards and 1 Td a game but I think we all want and expect more than that next season.
Also while a really poor supporting cast can stymie many QBs so there are similar, don't forget what happened last year when DJ was hurt and they had to play other QBs, the drop off was dramatic
Once again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.
Quote from: AP44 on December 21, 2022, 01:37:31 PMOnce again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.
I had forgotten the rushing yardage, those yards are huge (and often resulted in critical first downs)
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 07:15:20 AMHe wasn't trying to pick a fight. You made some claims and he asked you what did you observe to draw those conclusions.
Many of us have shared plenty of data, stats, observations and sources, etc to back up and/or articulate why we feel the way we do about various parts of the team.
The issue is if it is not what you believe, you just say we are wrong
In the case of others, they just get combative and try to pick fights
You can ask for our observations all you, AP, or whoever else wants, you know darn well it won't mean a thing to you
Then how would you like a discussion to go? I asked you a very simple question and you were the one who got combative and made unsubstantial claims towards me. If you dont want to discuss a topic and answer questions about your opinion, thats fine. Just let us know.
Quote from: AP44 on December 21, 2022, 01:37:31 PMOnce again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.
There is no doubt that Jones is one of the best rushing QB's in the league. And even factoring in his supporting cast I still don't believe he'll ever be an elite QB. If he was putting up average middle of the road passing numbers with this then I'd agree about that elite potential.
Agree to disagree on this.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 02:01:36 PMThere is no doubt that Jones is one of the best rushing QB's in the league. And even factoring in his supporting cast I still don't believe he'll ever be an elite QB. If he was putting up average middle of the road passing numbers with this then I'd agree about that elite potential.
Agree to disagree on this.
Nothing wrong with this opinion. But if people are going to show why Jones should go and not include rushing stats - thats a bit unfair to him.
Quote from: AP44 on December 21, 2022, 02:04:00 PMNothing wrong with this opinion. But if people are going to show why Jones should go and not include rushing stats - thats a bit unfair to him.
I'm pretty sure we are all aware what his stats are. Many times that I have pointed out his stats I would generally reference total yards or tds, the rushing stats are certainly part of the equation.
Hey, we agreed on something :cheers:
Agent's Take: Assessing Daniel Jones' season and what type of contract the Giants could give the improved QB
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-assessing-daniel-jones-season-and-what-type-of-contract-the-giants-could-give-the-improved-qb/
22-30 mill a year on avg yikes
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 01:32:39 PMJess,
I think you are asking the wrong question, in my opinion. Your question assumes there is no improvement in the QB supporting case from year 1 to year 2. I think we can expect a significant improvement and with that improvement, we will see increases in the raw numbers. With the improvement and the increased raw stats, I don't see the two QBs you mention creating the same increase in stats next season. Neither of the QBs you mentioned is as talented (in this season and next0 as Daniel Jones has demonstrated.
So the QBs you mentioned could likely average 180 yards and 1 Td a game but I think we all want and expect more than that next season.
Also while a really poor supporting cast can stymie many QBs so there are similar, don't forget what happened last year when DJ was hurt and they had to play other QBs, the drop off was dramatic
That's the problem though Rich, you expect better from Jones next season when he's had virtually the same statical seasons every year as a pro. He's not going to magically transition into something be hasn't been the previous 4 in year 5.
Quote from: AP44 on December 21, 2022, 01:37:31 PMOnce again - the failure to acknowledge supporting casts and DJ's rushing numbers is not being transparent about whats going on with the QB position.
Lol I wasn't considering the other Qbs rushing totals either.. If you have to add in a Qbs rushing to try to justify him as a Qb is that really the sign he's a good QB?
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 02:01:36 PMThere is no doubt that Jones is one of the best rushing QB's in the league. And even factoring in his supporting cast I still don't believe he'll ever be an elite QB. If he was putting up average middle of the road passing numbers with this then I'd agree about that elite potential.
Agree to disagree on this.
He's 16th in total passing yards. In a 32 team league that is the very definition of "average middle of the road passing numbers". And he has made himself top-notch in ball security despite being sacked the third-most times in the league, behind our supposedly improved OL (although going from 2.2 sacks per game last year up to 3.1 sacks per game this year doesn't seem improved to me). And he's about 4th in rushing yards.
These are the things that will make a team look at him and the lack of quality in the offense he's playing in and think about what he might do in their offense that is higher quality. And offer him more than the Giants are willing to pay him.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 04:15:14 PM22-30 mill a year on avg yikes
look at kylar Murray's and Jones stats over 50 games, then look at Murray's 5 year 230 million, and his record and then Jones' plus what people are thinking Jones should make. Scary.
Also for some reason I thought we were in the Daniel Jones thread.....
Shouldn't this be moved to the Daniel Jones thread?
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 21, 2022, 04:42:20 PMShouldn't this be moved to the Daniel Jones thread?
I was thinking the same thing
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 21, 2022, 04:24:43 PMHe's 16th in total passing yards. In a 32 team league that is the very definition of "average middle of the road passing numbers". And he has made himself top-notch in ball security despite being sacked the third-most times in the league, behind our supposedly improved OL (although going from 2.2 sacks per game last year up to 3.1 sacks per game this year doesn't seem improved to me). And he's about 4th in rushing yards.
These are the things that will make a team look at him and the lack of quality in the offense he's playing in and think about what he might do in their offense that is higher quality. And offer him more than the Giants are willing to pay him.
When you use Jones's individual ranking in total yards then imply its out of 32, you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. In a 32-team league, the Giants passing offense ranks 28th in yards-per-game and 27th in yards-per-attempt. If you look at Jones's yards-per-attempt for qualified passers this season, he's 27th as well (so right in line with the team rankings). Jones is decidedly not middle-of-the-pack in this regard. Doesn't change your arguments about the quality of the offense, but it's categorically incorrect to imply that the passing production of Jones has been anything but well below-average this season.
Sorry,I thought I put this in that thread.
Baddog on Jones
He was once one of his biggest critics
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 21, 2022, 04:15:14 PM22-30 mill a year on avg yikes
Yeah I am passing if that's the cost even on a 2 year deal.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 21, 2022, 05:02:41 PMWhen you use Jones's individual ranking in total yards then imply its out of 32, you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. In a 32-team league, the Giants passing offense ranks 28th in yards-per-game and 27th in yards-per-attempt. If you look at Jones's yards-per-attempt for qualified passers this season, he's 27th as well (so right in line with the team rankings). Jones is decidedly not middle-of-the-pack in this regard. Doesn't change your arguments about the quality of the offense, but it's categorically incorrect to imply that the passing production of Jones has been anything but well below-average this season.
Exactly how I look at it.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 21, 2022, 05:02:41 PMWhen you use Jones's individual ranking in total yards then imply its out of 32, you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. In a 32-team league, the Giants passing offense ranks 28th in yards-per-game and 27th in yards-per-attempt. If you look at Jones's yards-per-attempt for qualified passers this season, he's 27th as well (so right in line with the team rankings). Jones is decidedly not middle-of-the-pack in this regard. Doesn't change your arguments about the quality of the offense, but it's categorically incorrect to imply that the passing production of Jones has been anything but well below-average this season.
You have inadvertantly made a point about his durability. With the stat you cite coupled with the fact that the he is 16 in yards passing the implication is that QBs who are "better" than him have lost time to injury.
IAC, we'll see what happens. I think there will be teams that will look at him differently, that see that the Giants are near the bottom of the league in pass attempts and some of the other points I made that you chose not to address and offer him better coin than some folks think. They'll say, look what he's accomplished with a lousy OL and lousy receivers - our OL and receivers are way better, so imagine how he would do with them - and outbid the Giants. Which will make a bunch of you guys happy.
https://youtu.be/U6G4FLF6WvY
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 21, 2022, 04:29:39 PMlook at kylar Murray's and Jones stats over 50 games, then look at Murray's 5 year 230 million, and his record and then Jones' plus what people are thinking Jones should make. Scary.
Also for some reason I thought we were in the Daniel Jones thread.....
Murray is a prime example of why you need to look beyond the stats. The Cards are no doubt regretting the contract they gave to Murray
Here is the Bellinger dropped pass from the 3rd quarter of Sunday night's game that I had mentioned before.
It was actually 3rd and 5 and not 3rd and 9, and the pass seems to have been slightly behind Bellinger, and not on the numbers as I and Chris Collingsworth had previously mentioned, so please forgive me.
However even though it was slightly behind him, this seems like it was a pass that most starting NFL TE's should catch, especially on a crucial 3rd down, to keep a drive alive.
If you feel it was a bad pass, or a bad catch or maybe even both, you are entitled to your opinion, I am just sharing the pics for you to make your own call.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 21, 2022, 06:52:23 PMYou have inadvertantly made a point about his durability. With the stat you cite coupled with the fact that the he is 16 in yards passing the implication is that QBs who are "better" than him have lost time to injury.
Why is that the implication, precisely? Because it fits your supposition? Sorry, but QBs with better yards-per-attempt and less overall yardage have been benched for production reasons (Zach Wilson, Marcus Mariota). Its incumbent upon you to support your position with evidence and not self-serving assumptions.
And moreover, how does this support the idea that Jones is an above-average passer in any way? If these "better" QBs are getting injured and replaced by backups... well the teams overall are still performing far better on average than the Jones-led Giants! The teams idea really neutralizes your argument from the beginning. At best, your argument supports the idea that Jones is healthier than average (a proposition that for this season at least I can agree with), but not an average passer.
QuoteIAC, we'll see what happens. I think there will be teams that will look at him differently, that see that the Giants are near the bottom of the league in pass attempts and some of the other points I made that you chose not to address and offer him better coin than some folks think. They'll say, look what he's accomplished with a lousy OL and lousy receivers - our OL and receivers are way better, so imagine how he would do with them - and outbid the Giants. Which will make a bunch of you guys happy.
I chose not to address your other points because I wasn't involved in your conversation, but felt the need to correct a patently false idea that the Giants or Daniel Jones are middle-of-the-pack in passing. And as I said before, there are certainly valid criticisms about the quality of the Giants receiving corps, so why would I address mitigating factors that I already agreed with? I also don't feel the need to debate with you every point you (or anyone else) has. If you want me to, I can surely try.
The ad hominem attacks about people being happy about Jones departing are unnecessary and truly a refuge for a weak argument.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 21, 2022, 10:55:12 PMWhy is that the implication, precisely? Because it fits your supposition? Sorry, but QBs with better yards-per-attempt and less overall yardage have been benched for production reasons (Zach Wilson, Marcus Mariota). Its incumbent upon you to support your position with evidence and not self-serving assumptions.
And moreover, how does this support the idea that Jones is an above-average passer in any way? If these "better" QBs are getting injured and replaced by backups... well the teams overall are still performing far better on average than the Jones-led Giants! The teams idea really neutralizes your argument from the beginning. At best, your argument supports the idea that Jones is healthier than average (a proposition that for this season at least I can agree with), but not an average passer.
I chose not to address your other points because I wasn't involved in your conversation, but felt the need to correct a patently false idea that the Giants or Daniel Jones are middle-of-the-pack in passing. And as I said before, there are certainly valid criticisms about the quality of the Giants receiving corps, so why would I address mitigating factors that I already agreed with? I also don't feel the need to debate with you every point you (or anyone else) has. If you want me to, I can surely try.
The ad hominem attacks about people being happy about Jones departing are unnecessary and truly a refuge for a weak argument.
This might all be the case if this were a debating board and not a discussion board. As it is I have my opinion and I'm not trying to change your mind, nor am I going to be drawn into a debate when soon enough we will see what happens. I'll just add that acknowledging the fact that the are people here who want to see DJ's back is not an ad hominem, it is a recognition of reality. And if you read my post on what I think will happen you'd be hard-pressed to discover a narrative.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 21, 2022, 11:43:39 PMThis might all be the case if this were a debating board and not a discussion board. As it is I have my opinion and I'm not trying to change your mind, nor am I going to be drawn into a debate when soon enough we will see what happens. I'll just add that acknowledging the fact that the are people here who want to see DJ's back is not an ad hominem, it is a recognition of reality. And if you read my post on what I think will happen you'd be hard-pressed to discover a narrative.
You can have your opinions. But when you state something as fact that is demonstrably wrong, that's not an "opinion" beyond question on a "discussion board." You stated something as fact (Daniel Jones is a middle-of-the-pack passer by production this season) that is demonstrably wrong by virtually any meaningful (
i.e. rate based) metric. I wasn't debating you, but pointing out that argument is, again, demonstrably wrong. You tried to come back with some spin on it based on conjecture and speculation, which even if assumed didn't even support your position. You now try to also spin an ad hominem attack into something about "acknowledging reality" (which is certainly up for deba... discussion). And even if one were to believe you, then what actual purpose does such a comment serve? I'd say not very much, which evidences its true intent.
Also, I never mentioned anything about a narrative (or approached an accusation that you have some predisposition on the Daniel Jones matter). Your unwarranted defensiveness is telling.
Suffice it to say I disagree with your "opinion" that Jones is a middle-of-the-pack passer this year.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on December 21, 2022, 08:50:01 PMIf you feel it was a bad pass, or a bad catch or maybe even both, you are entitled to your opinion, I am just sharing the pics for you to make your own call.
Like the Slayton play in the first Washington game I think this one was on both players. Problem for me is that we are seeing too many of these with the Giants and it's not just one receiver it's multiple receivers. It shows the argument can be made that Jones hasn't elevated those around him just as much as they haven't elevated him.
For what it's worth, PFF dinged Bellinger for one dropped pass
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 21, 2022, 07:02:03 PMMurray is a prime example of why you need to look beyond the stats. The Cards are no doubt regretting the contract they gave to Murray
Stats from both Jones and Murray's first 50 games say Murray's the better QB and I'd agree with that. I still wouldn't have paid him, just like I wouldn't pay Jones.
Daniel Jones- 1,638 ATT 1,040 CMP 63.5 PCT 10,915 YDS 57 TD 33 Int 86.0 Rating 19-30-1 Record
Kyler Murray- 1,754 ATT 1,170 CMP 66.7PCT 12,471 YDS 75 TD 36 INT 93.0 Rating 24-25-1 Record
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2022, 09:09:19 AMStats from both Jones and Murray's first 50 games say Murray's the better QB and I'd agree with that. I still wouldn't have paid him, just like I wouldn't pay Jones.
Daniel Jones- 1,638 ATT 1,040 CMP 63.5 PCT 10,915 YDS 57 TD 33 Int 86.0 Rating 19-30-1 Record
Kyler Murray- 1,754 ATT 1,170 CMP 66.7PCT 12,471 YDS 75 TD 36 INT 93.0 Rating 24-25-1 Record
The stats said Murray was the better QB, which is a good reason not to just listen to stats. DJ is lights out superior to Murray in the critical traits like work ethic, toughness, and leadership
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 09:11:58 AMThe stats said Murray was the better QB, which is a good reason not to just listen to stats. DJ is lights out superior to Murray in the critical traits like work ethic, toughness, and leadership
Murray is the better QB; although, they're probably both in the same tier, which is Exactly what the stats say. Moreover, I would agree to look beyond the stats for a single year, as it could be an anomaly...it happens. I wouldn't advocate for looking beyond four years and 55 Games started of data. At that point, history has repetitively shown us you are who you are...
I also agree with Jess, I wouldn't have signed Murray for the same reasons I'm not in favor of a franchise-type deal for DJ....
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 08:19:31 AMLike the Slayton play in the first Washington game I think this one was on both players. Problem for me is that we are seeing too many of these with the Giants and it's not just one receiver it's multiple receivers. It shows the argument can be made that Jones hasn't elevated those around him just as much as they haven't elevated him.
Good points, and to add to what you are saying the first two passes in thay game that DJ threw to Slayton weren't completed either, so Slayton wasn't helping to elevate DJs game as you brought out
Murray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!
OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 22, 2022, 09:33:56 AMMurray is the better QB; although, they're probably both in the same tier, which is Exactly what the stats say. Moreover, I would agree to look beyond the stats for a single year, as it could be an anomaly...it happens. I wouldn't advocate for looking beyond four years and 55 Games started of data. At that point, history has repetitively shown us you are who you are...
I don't think this will be proven true in the end. I think, in the end, Jones will prove to be the better QB. While Jones is having career years in many areas, notice Murray's stats are now dropping. I think those traits that Jones is, far in a way, superior are a lot more important than I think some appreciate.
Rest assured, whoever signs Daniel Jones this offseason will not have to put a homework clause in his contract.
Murray is more dynamic on the ground as well. But he has some challenges with his size too
With that said I wouldn't pay him either. One advantage DJ there is Kyler is a diva and headache.
Kyler is a better player. But neither are a guy I would pay big money. Saying DJ is a better leader and tougher isnt saying much when compared to a whiny crybaby like Murray.
His ACL may bring down his explosiveness too, which will impact his game pretty bad potentially.
What I will say, is as much as I don't like Murray, if over the same span, DJs stats looked more like Kylers, I would be much more in favor of keeping him around.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 22, 2022, 09:41:50 AMMurray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!
OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.
Not really, Hopkins has been very injury prone over the last two years...last season he only accounted for 500 yards. This year, he's only played in 8 games. AJ Green is nearing 35 years of age and is a shell of his former self; M Brown was an overpaid FA...he's only had 1 of 4 good seasons. While Murray has better talent this season, it's a lot closer than people realize over the last 4-years. While Murray has enjoyed Hopkins, DJ has enjoyed Barkley/Thomas. They both have bottom 10 Offense lines; although, the Giants have been been better pass blockers this season.
The Cards were on the right track, but haven't done well acquiring talent over the last few years, especially young talent. It's odd we're told to look beyond the numbers as it relates to DJ, but we're not going to give Murray the same 'curtesy.' I suspect Kingsburry will be fired this offseason and the Cards will be starting over on the offensive side of the ball; something I'd like to see our Giants avoid in 3-years...
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 22, 2022, 09:47:46 AMMurray is more dynamic on the ground as well. But he has some challenges with his size too
With that said I wouldn't pay him either. One advantage DJ there is Kyler is a diva and headache.
Kyler is a better player. But neither are a guy I would pay big money. Saying DJ is a better leader and tougher isnt saying much when compared to a whiny crybaby like Murray.
His ACL may bring down his explosiveness too, which will impact his game pretty bad potentially.
What I will say, is as much as I don't like Murray, if over the same span, DJs stats looked more like Kylers, I would be much more in favor of keeping him around.
I think Jones has the longer NFL career than Murray despite Murray being more talented. Jones being a hard working good guy who has shown he can be an efficient game manager will last longer in the NFL.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 10:02:16 AMI think Jones has the longer NFL career than Murray despite Murray being more talented. Jones being a hard working good guy who has shown he can be an efficient game manager will last longer in the NFL.
I agree, Rambo! When DJ starting days are over in a decade, he'll make a great backup too.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 10:02:16 AMI think Jones has the longer NFL career than Murray despite Murray being more talented. Jones being a hard working good guy who has shown he can be an efficient game manager will last longer in the NFL.
Murray should have stuck with baseball I don't think mentally he is good enough or strong enough.
When this contract is up I wouldn't be shocked if he tries to keep his career going by going to play baseball professionally
Quote from: kingm56 on December 22, 2022, 10:07:23 AMI agree, Rambo! When DJ starting days are over in a decade, he'll make a great backup too.
I also agree, especially with the uncertainty of the ACL injury
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 22, 2022, 09:41:50 AMMurray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!
OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.
Not that is the be-all and end-all of pass pro evaluation, but AZ is just above the Giants, giving up 2.9 sacks per game compared to 3.1 for the Giants. And our guys have done a better job in run blocking at 4.6 YPC compared to AZ's 4.3.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 22, 2022, 09:41:50 AMMurray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!
OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.
His offensive line is definitely far worse this year. Pugh, Hernandez, Billy Price, Max Garcia - we've seen that show and it isn't good.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 22, 2022, 10:21:48 AMNot that is the be-all and end-all of pass pro evaluation, but AZ is just above the Giants, giving up 2.9 sacks per game compared to 3.1 for the Giants. And our guys have done a better job in run blocking at 4.6 YPC compared to AZ's 4.3.
Better pass blocking + better receivers = better success
Quote from: AYM on December 22, 2022, 10:27:21 AMHis offensive line is definitely far worse this year. Pugh, Hernandez, Billy Price, Max Garcia - we've seen that show and it isn't good.
Can't disagree but in his years prior they have been better then us.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 22, 2022, 09:41:50 AMMurray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!
OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.
The Cardinals are signing our cast offs to play oline.. We have Barkley, they have D Hop, I think it averages out.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 09:44:19 AMI don't think this will be proven true in the end. I think, in the end, Jones will prove to be the better QB. While Jones is having career years in many areas, notice Murray's stats are now dropping. I think those traits that Jones is, far in a way, superior are a lot more important than I think some appreciate.
Rest assured, whoever signs Daniel Jones this offseason will not have to put a homework clause in his contract.
A career year where lol? A career year for him has the Giants passing offense in the bottom 3rd. 27th in yards, 28th in Tds, 25th In yards per attempt. Those are not good, so I'm not sure how you justify a career year just because he doesn't turn it over.
Also Murray played a majority of the season with a bad line, no D hop, no Superstar running back and still has better numbers than Jones.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2022, 01:55:32 PMA career year where lol?
Jones is tied for the league's fewest interceptions with four among qualified passers (at least 14 pass attempts per team's games played) and has only lost three fumbles this season. He also has the NFL's lowest interception rate (interceptions/pass attempts) at 1.0%.
Jones is posting career highs in completion percentage (66%) and passer rating (90.5). He ranks 12th and 17th, respectively, in the NFL in these categories. His 2,694 passing yards are 16th in the league. He also has his highest QBR at 57.1, which ranks 12th
Jones also set a new career high (with three games remaining) in rushing yards 583, which ranks him 5th. He ranks 13th in total QB yards with 3,277
I am not sure what is so funny.
I think it is fair to call this year a "career year" for Jones. I wouldn't say it exactly dwarfs his other seasons, but it is clearly the best of the four. I would say it has been a middling season by NFL starter standards, but definitely better than the other three. He has cut way down on mistakes and has settled in nicely to a game manager QB role that his coaches have done a nice job of figuring out how to win with.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2022, 01:55:32 PMA career year where lol? A career year for him has the Giants passing offense in the bottom 3rd. 27th in yards, 28th in Tds, 25th In yards per attempt. Those are not good, so I'm not sure how you justify a career year just because he doesn't turn it over.
Also Murray played a majority of the season with a bad line, no D hop, no Superstar running back and still has better numbers than Jones.
You have to add in his rushing yards and TD's and 1st downs running. He may wind up with near 4000 yards total. As of now he only has 4 Interceptions and has cut down considerably in turnovers. So Rushing and YAC is a career high. 3300 passing and that's also a CH. 66% completion % and that's a CH. QR 90.5 and QBR 57.1 and those are CH's.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 02:05:30 PMJones is tied for the league's fewest interceptions with four among qualified passers (at least 14 pass attempts per team's games played) and has only lost three fumbles this season. He also has the NFL's lowest interception rate (interceptions/pass attempts) at 1.0%.
Jones is posting career highs in completion percentage (66%) and passer rating (90.5). He ranks 12th and 17th, respectively, in the NFL in these categories. His 2,694 passing yards are 16th in the league. He also has his highest QBR at 57.1, which ranks 12th
Jones also set a new career high (with three games remaining) in rushing yards 583, which ranks him 5th. He ranks 13th in total QB yards with 3,277
I am not sure what is so funny.
Because you're calling it a career year when he's averaging a 180 a game and 1 Td... Everything you just highlighted is because Jones is only throwing it on average 17-27 times a game. We are 27th in the league in pass attempts at 414. So you saying he isn't turning it over and has a high completion rate because we aren't throwing it like other teams. He is the Quarterback and we have one of the worst passing offenses in the league due in part to him. His average completion is 4.8 air yards. When you only throw the ball 4-6 yards down field on average every Qb would have great numbers.. one of the 2-3 worst passing offenses in the league but as long as 17 passes a game are efficient then it's a career year. He'll end up with the same numbers he's had every year, Daboll/Kafka juat made him more efficient because they don't want him throwing the ball unless we absolutely have to.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2022, 02:26:03 PMBecause you're calling it a career year when he's averaging a 180 a game and 1 Td... Everything you just highlighted is because Jones is only throwing it on average 17-27 times a game. We are 27th in the league in pass attempts at 414. So you saying he isn't turning it over and has a high completion rate because we aren't throwing it like other teams. He is the Quarterback and we have one of the worst passing offenses in the league due in part to him. His average completion is 4.8 air yards. When you only throw the ball 4-6 yards down field on average every Qb would have great numbers.. one of the 2-3 worst passing offenses in the league but as long as 17 passes a game are efficient then it's a career year. He'll end up with the same numbers he's had every year, Daboll/Kafka juat made him more efficient because they don't want him throwing the ball unless we absolutely have to.
I'm pleased with his performance this year, all things offense considered. I'm fine with his being a game manager, making good decisions (for the most part) and his legs aren't to be dismissed.
Aside from limiting the turnovers, my biggest question mark for him this season was his health. He checked that box for me.
Would we rather throw the ball all over the field to one of the worst receiving corps in the league just so we can have higher passing stats? Or have a game plan that gives us the best opportunity to win? Last time I checked we are 8-5-1. So do stats really matter?
Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 02:41:08 PMWould we rather throw the ball all over the field to one of the worst receiving corps in the league just so we can have higher passing stats? Or have a game plan that gives us the best opportunity to win? Last time I checked we are 8-5-1. So do stats really matter?
Obviously winning is what ultimately matters, but yes, I think stats do matter.
I know many people scoff at the idea of "stats", but I look at them simply as quantitative data of what has transpired on the field. I think when people look at stats without appropriate context or look at too small of a sample size and draw conclusions, that is when they get stats wrong. And I also don't think stats by themselves tell you all that you need to know about a player. However to suggest they don't matter at all is not an idea that I'm on board with.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 03:09:37 PMObviously winning is what ultimately matters, but yes, I think stats do matter.
I know many people scoff at the idea of "stats", but I look at them simply as quantitative data of what has transpired on the field. I think when people look at stats without appropriate context or look at too small of a sample size and draw conclusions, that is when they get stats wrong. And I also don't think stats by themselves tell you all that you need to know about a player. However to suggest they don't matter at all is not an idea that I'm on board with.
I agree 100%. Rarely do I take things at face value. There's usually more to the story.
If a QB's stat line has 4 INTs we'd think he had a horrible game. But if those INTs all bounced off of his receivers' hands and was caught by a defender, the QB doesn't look as bad.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 02:05:30 PMJones is tied for the league's fewest interceptions with four among qualified passers (at least 14 pass attempts per team's games played) and has only lost three fumbles this season. He also has the NFL's lowest interception rate (interceptions/pass attempts) at 1.0%.
Jones is posting career highs in completion percentage (66%) and passer rating (90.5). He ranks 12th and 17th, respectively, in the NFL in these categories. His 2,694 passing yards are 16th in the league. He also has his highest QBR at 57.1, which ranks 12th
Jones also set a new career high (with three games remaining) in rushing yards 583, which ranks him 5th. He ranks 13th in total QB yards with 3,277
I am not sure what is so funny.
I thought of those stats when I saw this Tweet
https://twitter.com/SteveV_NFL/status/1606010013310394368
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of statistics to bolster weak arguments, "one of the best, and best-known" critiques of applied statistics. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.
I use stats and measures quite frequently. So I am not going to say stats don't matter. Still, stats can be used to help clarify, but they often can be misused (intentionally or unintentionally) in a manner that creates a false impression.
When you are evaluating a QB, I think there is little value in what I like to call raw stats. Things like total yardage and TDs and the like. Those tend to be skewed by circumstances such as how pass-heavy an offense is, how many times the ball is thrown,n or even how good or bad a defense is (is the team in shootouts or having to play catchup).
Personally, I prefer ratios (like TDs to INTs or yards per attempt) and established metrics like QB rating, QBR, and PFF grades (admittedly not a stat). I mean, there is some small value in the raw stats, but I often see their importance overstated.
Of course, I am not the biggest fan of QB comparisons in general because the three support pillars (coaching/scheme, protection, and receiving targets) can greatly skew the stats used for comparison purposes (while being a challenge to compensate for). Still, I do appreciate that in the grand scheme of things comparisons do become necessary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2022, 02:16:42 PMYou have to add in his rushing yards and TD's and 1st downs running. He may wind up with near 4000 yards total. As of now he only has 4 Interceptions and has cut down considerably in turnovers. So Rushing and YAC is a career high. 3300 passing and that's also a CH. 66% completion % and that's a CH. QR 90.5 and QBR 57.1 and those are CH's.
I see that Ed, and completely get that, it's a valid point. His rushing has been really good this season, but as a passer in my opinion nothing has changed. He has not progressed as a thrower of the football this season and even regressed. He doesn't get as many opportunities to throw it and so his efficiency and turnovers are a positive but overall his passing as a whole is secerly lackluster.
Quote from: T200 on December 22, 2022, 02:39:59 PMI'm pleased with his performance this year, all things offense considered. I'm fine with his being a game manager, making good decisions (for the most part) and his legs aren't to be dismissed.
Aside from limiting the turnovers, my biggest question mark for him this season was his health. He checked that box for me.
Im even ok with numbers if we're not acting like he's the end all be all or that he's done some miraculous feat warranting 30 million a year. His passing Imo is meh, it's not good enough, and if we are looking at Jones as a stop gap to us finding the answer I'm 150% on board with that. I'm just not ok with acting like he's the long term answer when he's clearly not if that makes sense.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2022, 02:16:42 PMYou have to add in his rushing yards and TD's and 1st downs running. He may wind up with near 4000 yards total. As of now he only has 4 Interceptions and has cut down considerably in turnovers. So Rushing and YAC is a career high. 3300 passing and that's also a CH. 66% completion % and that's a CH. QR 90.5 and QBR 57.1 and those are CH's.
You'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs. I could be wrong but don't think it does.
Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 02:41:08 PMWould we rather throw the ball all over the field to one of the worst receiving corps in the league just so we can have higher passing stats? Or have a game plan that gives us the best opportunity to win? Last time I checked we are 8-5-1. So do stats really matter?
The idea that it's the worst receiving corps in the league is an opinion. We don't know exactly why the Giants aren't throwing it all over the field. It could be Jones, the O-Line, Receivers or a combination of all three.
Whatever the case Jones has proven to be an extremely efficient game manager. And as you pointed out it's helped the Giants get to being 8-5-1.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 03:17:02 PMI thought of those stats when I saw this Tweet
https://twitter.com/SteveV_NFL/status/1606010013310394368
Here's a crazy stat. Fields has had 15 fumbles, most in the league. But he has only lost 1.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:29 PMYou'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs. I could be wrong but don't think it does.
The idea that it's the worst receiving corps in the league is an opinion. We don't know exactly why the Giants aren't throwing it all over the field. It could be Jones, the O-Line, Receivers or a combination of all three.
Whatever the case Jones has proven to be an extremely efficient game manager. And as you pointed out it's helped the Giants get to being 8-5-1.
See that's part of the problem, before the season started daboll wanted Jones to "rip it" "Air it out and attack" and we've yet to see any of that from a throwing perspective. So we're in year 4 with Jones and still don't know if he can thrive in a traditional dropback offense. Just a month ago Gms and executives around the league were quoted saying that he shouldn't be retained because of his inability to win in throwing situations, even in the scaled back nontraditional offense Daboll and Kafka had to install. So if other executives think that, then it's just curious why daboll and Co went away from the rip it, attack, and went to a nontraditional offense. Because what we are left with is just more of the same instead of seeing that he can really attack, force the ball down field, sustain multiple drives through the air, and win putting up points that way.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:29 PMYou'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs. I could be wrong but don't think it does.
He's 16th in passing yards and 13th in passing and rushing yards combined.
Are we really gonna say the Giants don't have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL? I mean can we at least be objective?
If you want to argue Ravens - fine but they have andrews at least. There's really not a group other than them that are as bad as ours.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 22, 2022, 04:46:17 PMHe's 16th in passing yards and 13th in passing and rushing yards combined.
Ok, so again middle of the road QB. Which is fine. It's not a $25-$30+ AAV QB.
Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 05:06:23 PMAre we really gonna say the Giants don't have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL? I mean can we at least be objective?
If you want to argue Ravens - fine but they have andrews at least. There's really not a group other than them that are as bad as ours.
What we do know that with this QB, OL and WR's the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football. I don't think adding a #1 Playmaking WR will make as big of a difference as others do. For me the screaming about the WR's is what the fire Jason Garrett upgrade the offensive line was a year ago. Yet here we are having a similar discussion.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:11:23 PMOk, so again middle of the road QB. Which is fine. It's not a $25-$30+ AAV QB.
What we do know that with this QB, OL and WR's the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football. I don't think adding a #1 Playmaking WR will make as big of a difference as others do. For me the screaming about the WR's is what the fire Jason Garrett upgrade the offensive line was a year ago. Yet here we are having a similar discussion.
We are having the same discussion because the Oline pass blocking has seriously declined since last year and the WRs have gone backwards since last year. There is a limit to how much coaching can affect units that have a serious lack of quality.
Phil Simms, Rich Gannon, David Tyree, Lawrence Tynes, Tiki Barber, and the majority of the Giants beat reporters.
What do they all have in common?
They all have recently said they believe that Jones will be back with the Giants next season.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 22, 2022, 05:15:30 PMWe are having the same discussion because the Oline pass blocking has seriously declined since last year and the WRs have gone backwards since last year. There is a limit to how much coaching can affect units that have a serious lack of quality.
Personnel has changed on both the WR and O-Line units. Play caller has also changed.......
I wonder what hasn't changed? :doh:
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 22, 2022, 05:17:33 PMPhil Simms, Rich Gannon, David Tyree, Lawrence Tynes, Tiki Barber, and the majority of the Giants beat reporters.
What do they all have in common?
They all have recently said they believe that Jones will be back with the Giants next season.
All of which have no connection to the new Giants regime.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:11:23 PMFor me the screaming about the WR's is what the fire Jason Garrett upgrade the offensive line was a year ago. Yet here we are having a similar discussion.
Last year there was also a lot of talk about how Jones didn't have a running game to lean on (as Barkley was bad last year). This year not only did we get rid of Jason Garrett and replace him with Daboll/Kafka, but Barkley is the Pro Bowl starter now. And yet the passing numbers still are not materially different from past years.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 22, 2022, 05:17:33 PMPhil Simms, Rich Gannon, David Tyree, Lawrence Tynes, Tiki Barber, and the majority of the Giants beat reporters.
What do they all have in common?
They all have recently said they believe that Jones will be back with the Giants next season.
Jones may well be back next year, but I doubt Schoen will do it at a price he's not comfortable with. And that's if he's willing to do it at all, which I have no idea if he will be. I think we can all agree that Jones is not a guy whom you just sign at whatever price you can get him, a la Josh Allen or Pat Mahomes. There is a limit to what any sensible GM would pay for him. If he is asking for more than what Schoen is comfortable with, then I think he will hit the open market.
Jones doesn't seem like the type to dig his heels in and go for max dollars at this early stage in his career, so if the Giants are interested in bringing him back I have a feeling he'll be on the more compliant side compared to other athletes. We'll see though. This is all just speculation at this stage. Nobody here knows what will happen, including me (obviously).
Quote from: T200 on December 22, 2022, 02:39:59 PMI'm pleased with his performance this year, all things offense considered. I'm fine with his being a game manager, making good decisions (for the most part) and his legs aren't to be dismissed.
Aside from limiting the turnovers, my biggest question mark for him this season was his health. He checked that box for me.
We know from under PS he can air the ball out and make the throws! Nothing has changed physically that anyone is aware of to prove otherwise.
So the big question becomes (which we can't get answered) is it the coaching staff holding him back from doing so, is the WRs the issue (yet look at the bomb to Slay a few weeks back) or is he just gun shy and won't throw it?
I think if we had that answered it could answer and clear up a lot
If you want to argue that Jones isn't the long term answer - that's fine.
But to say we have a WR group that could produce above average result for any QB is just remarkable to me. They are a very bad unit.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:36:52 PM
Thanks for sharing.
Obviously this guy is not a Daniel Jones fan, so I'm sure there will be some members here who won't like this video and will dismiss everything he has to say out of hand. I think he makes some valid points though, particularly about some of the fan base being more accepting of mediocrity than they were a decade ago.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 06:21:24 PMThanks for sharing.
Obviously this guy is not a Daniel Jones fan, so I'm sure there will be some members here who won't like this video and will dismiss everything he has to say out of hand. I think he makes some valid points though, particularly about some of the fan base being more accepting of mediocrity than they were a decade ago.
I am curious, you are really raving about this video. Why did you completely ignore the one that was posted yesterday?
I mean they are both about Daniel Jones and they both are made by some random dude. What made the one Rambo posted so great and the other one not even worthy of mention?
Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 06:04:13 PMIf you want to argue that Jones isn't the long term answer - that's fine.
But to say we have a WR group that could produce above average result for any QB is just remarkable to me. They are a very bad unit.
I know we agree to disagree on this but outside of lacking a true #1 Playmaking WR I don't believe this unit is that bad.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 06:21:24 PMThanks for sharing.
Obviously this guy is not a Daniel Jones fan, so I'm sure there will be some members here who won't like this video and will dismiss everything he has to say out of hand. I think he makes some valid points though, particularly about some of the fan base being more accepting of mediocrity than they were a decade ago.
The point that he brought up about how we as Giants fans would look at Daniel Jones if he was the QB of another team and how it would be completely different is a really good one. Sometimes you have to separate your fandom from these situations if you truly want to be honest.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 05:21:54 PMLast year there was also a lot of talk about how Jones didn't have a running game to lean on (as Barkley was bad last year). This year not only did we get rid of Jason Garrett and replace him with Daboll/Kafka, but Barkley is the Pro Bowl starter now. And yet the passing numbers still are not materially different from past years.
Well, the pass pro DID get a lot worse, so there's that.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:19:27 PMPersonnel has changed on both the WR and O-Line units. Play caller has also changed.......
I wonder what hasn't changed? :doh:
The lack of quality of both groups. Although they did really change, the O-line clearly got worse in pass pro, and the WRs declined largely due to injury.
I know where you want to take this, but you have to deal with these facts. The personnel may have changed in these units, but is a very hard case to make that change meant improvement. Impossible, in the case of the pass pro.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 22, 2022, 07:35:07 PMThe lack of quality of both groups. Although they did really change, the O-line clearly got worse in pass pro, and the WRs declined largely due to injury.
I know where you want to take this, but you have to deal with these facts. The personnel may have changed in these units, but is a very hard case to make that change meant improvement. Impossible, in the case of the pass pro.
The fact is there has been one constant the last 4 seasons. Yet there is always some other excuse to get away from the inconvenient factor no one wants to acknowledge.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2022, 03:45:32 PMIm even ok with numbers if we're not acting like he's the end all be all or that he's done some miraculous feat warranting 30 million a year. His passing Imo is meh, it's not good enough, and if we are looking at Jones as a stop gap to us finding the answer I'm 150% on board with that. I'm just not ok with acting like he's the long term answer when he's clearly not if that makes sense.
I don't think there's anyone here that thinks that either.
There was something that Chris Collinsworth said about DJ during the Washington game that I thought was of interest.
He said, DJ is very good when he gets rid of the ball quickly and throws short intermediate passes, spreading the football around to multiple targets. In this I agree.
I would also add that DJ is very good when he has some designed runs called.
He also admitted the other day that he has learned what it takes to win in the NFL.
So, is he a game manager? Yes, I would say so, but I believe he is becoming very good at it.
Does he throw for a lot of yardage? No, but in order to win in the NFL, it's not so much about stats but what is the final score at the end of the game.
Final thought he only has thrown four interceptions in fourteen games, that is excellent. He has learned how to protect the football and not turn it over, and that has been a huge key in the teams 8-5-1 record.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 22, 2022, 07:27:32 PMWell, the pass pro DID get a lot worse, so there's that.
By what standard? The metrics says it's better than last year. Did you see the post from Ed a few weeks ago?
In a copycat league looks like Jacksonville has Trevor Lawrence running a Daniel Jones Offense. The Mad Bomber at Clemson who needed his wings clipped too.
Football outsiders DYAR metric:
Slayton 31 (15,16 on some metrics)
James 39
Robinson 32 in the under 50 catches
2 Wrs in the top 40 DYAR is hardly horrible Wrs. Above average/average Mayne but not as horrible as people think. If Robinson was still playing he'd rank 32nd so that would be 3 Wrs I'm the top 40. You also have to look at our attempts vs other teams, if we passed more obviously their numbers would be better but to act like they are the worst in the league is a stretch.
Plus Bellinger is 16th DYAR for TEs even after missing several games.
Shurmur a guy who knows a thing or two about QBs and especially ours since he coached him chimes in on DJ:
"His first year, I think it's fair to say that he did enough things that he had the ability to have a bright future," Shurmur said during a phone interview Tuesday from his Union County home. "Probably the only thing you could have been critical of when he was a rookie was his ability to take care of the ball. But as far as throwing the ball and running it and doing what you have to do as a quarterback, you had to walk away from that first year saying this guy really has a chance to be good"
"I'm not surprised at all by what he's doing," Shurmur said. "I've seen the way he works and I always thought he was a good leader and a very talented guy. I'm just happy about his success. It takes a while for quarterbacks to develop, and he has done that. I'm rooting for him. When I was part of that organization, we did a quarterback evaluation that year and we felt he was our guy. I think it was a smart decision."
As the Giants decide whether to keep Jones beyond this season, which seems more likely than ever [yet another media guy saying this now] , Shurmur believes the best is yet to come for the quarterback.
"As he continues to play and he continues to grow in their offensive system, he's certainly going to continue to improve and do more of what they are looking for," Shurmur said.
https://www.nj.com/giants/2022/12/giants-former-head-coach-ecstatic-that-daniel-jones-has-team-on-brink-of-a-playoff-berth.html
Quote from: sxdxca38 on December 22, 2022, 08:25:39 PMThere was something that Chris Collinsworth said about DJ during the Washington game that I thought was of interest.
He said, DJ is very good when he gets rid of the ball quickly and throws short intermediate passes, spreading the football around to multiple targets. In this I agree.
I would also add that DJ is very good when he has some designed runs called.
He also admitted the other day that he has learned what it takes to win in the NFL.
So, is he a game manager? Yes, I would say so, but I believe he is becoming very good at it.
Does he throw for a lot of yardage? No, but in order to win in the NFL, it's not so much about stats but what is the final score at the end of the game.
Final thought he only has thrown four interceptions in fourteen games, that is excellent. He has learned how to protect the football and not turn it over, and that has been a huge key in the teams 8-5-1 record.
And when he gets better receivers (not guys we as fans have to work hard to come up with stats to make them look like they are somehow high end receivers) he will likely make the jump up in passing stats much like Josh Allen, Tua, Hurts, Lawrence all did.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 22, 2022, 08:32:26 PMBy what standard? The metrics says it's better than last year. Did you see the post from Ed a few weeks ago?
Last year they averaged giving up 2.2 sacks per game. This year they have been averaging 3.1 sacks per game, more than a 40% increase. In the face of these facts I would not give credence to any metric that says their pass pro has even stayed the same, let anyone improved.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 12:41:56 AMLast year they averaged giving up 2.2 sacks per game. This year they have been averaging 3.1 sacks per game, more than a 40% increase. In the face of these facts I would not give credence to any metric that says their pass pro has even stayed the same, let anyone improved.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game
So, sacks allowed are purely an offense line stat, which the QB shares no culpability? If the QB holds the ball for 5 seconds, and gets sacked, is it still against the line? It's odd you choose to only use one metric, while simultaneously disregarding all the other data points.
Quote from: T200 on December 22, 2022, 07:50:12 PMI don't think there's anyone here that thinks that either.
Not true there are a select few who believe Jones is the long term answer that the Giants just need to get him WRs.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 12:29:13 AMAnd when he gets better receivers (not guys we as fans have to work hard to come up with stats to make them look like they are somehow high end receivers) he will likely make the jump up in passing stats much like Josh Allen, Tua, Hurts, Lawrence all did.
This is the 2022 version of all Jones needs is a new offensive coordinator and a better offensive line that we heard a year ago.
Looking strictly at raw sacks without considering time to throw is literally going halfway down the path towards reality. Jones sits in the pocket longer than any other QB in the league. Obviously it's all the receivers' fault though and can't possibly have anything to do with processing speed, pre-snap read capability, or field vision.
Quote from: killarich on December 23, 2022, 05:59:41 AM
He's always had a pro Jones leaning on Social Media so not surprised he has this take.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 06:03:57 AMLooking strictly at raw sacks without considering time to throw is literally going halfway down the path towards reality. Jones sits in the pocket longer than any other QB in the league. Obviously it's all the receivers' fault though and can't possibly have anything to do with processing speed, pre-snap read capability, or field vision.
That number is always skewed since DJ can scramble to buy more time and not to mention the amount of playactions we run especially earlier in the season.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 23, 2022, 07:22:41 AMThat number is always skewed since DJ can scramble to buy more time and not to mention the amount of playactions we run especially earlier in the season.
It's not skewed. Time in the pocket is just that it's not time from the snap until he throws.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 05:48:48 AMNot true there are a select few who believe Jones is the long term answer that the Giants just need to get him WRs.
I could be wrong but I thought it was more of not dismissing the possibility of him being the long term answer without first giving him reliable receivers.
Either way, it's approaching midnight and we're going to find out Schoen's decision soon enough. Sadly, it will just trigger a new round of Jones debates.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 07:48:21 AMIt's not skewed. Time in the pocket is just that it's not time from the snap until he throws.
It's not "time in the pocket"; it's "time to throw". TTT is defined as the average Time to Throw on all dropbacks
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 06:03:57 AMLooking strictly at raw sacks without considering time to throw is literally going halfway down the path towards reality. Jones sits in the pocket longer than any other QB in the league. Obviously it's all the receivers' fault though and can't possibly have anything to do with processing speed, pre-snap read capability, or field vision.
Jones is middle of the pack in pocket time. Justin Fields leads the league at 2.7 seconds. Jones pocket time is 2.5 seconds along with 9 others. The least amount of pocket time is 2.3 seconds.
Bill
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 06:03:57 AMLooking strictly at raw sacks without considering time to throw is literally going halfway down the path towards reality. Jones sits in the pocket longer than any other QB in the league. Obviously it's all the receivers' fault though and can't possibly have anything to do with processing speed, pre-snap read capability, or field vision.
I listen to as many former GMs, head coaches, and other NFL people as I possibly can. I also seek out non-NFL football with strong expertise. I do that, so I can continue to learn all I can about football. One thing that is striking is the metric time to throw. It's a PFF stat, and it's talked about much here on this forum and to a significantly lesser degree in NFL social media.
Here is what is striking. I don't hear NFL people talk about time to throw. I don't hear experts like Greg Cossell or Nick Falato talk about time to throw. If time to throw was such a quality measure that was worthy of consideration, why hasn't the NFL or people who know football really well adopted it?
https://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1595928496496574464
I had an opportunity to re-watch the Dallas and Philadelphia games, and compared them to the last Washington game.
The Giants offensive line was completely manhandled by the Cowboys and Eagles defensive line.
Barkley only rushed for 3.1 and 3.5 ypc in both games, and had nowhere to run.
DJ was under tremendous pressure and his time to throw was significantly reduced.
In the last Washington game the Giants offensive line was much stronger and provided some holes for Barkley to run through as his ypc jumped to 4.8.
We can support or criticize DJ all we want but if the Giants offensive line gets manhandled again by Dallas and Philadelphia it really isn't going to matter.
A big part of winning takes place down in the trenches
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:22:51 AMhttps://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1595928496496574464
I am curious, did you post this because you consider Shannon Sharpe an expert on football and you respect his views and opinions or did you post it because his opinions match your own?
I have noticed a major change in the beat writers' views on DJ. For most of the season, they have pretty much been on the fence or really not dove into the whole does DJ stay or go debate. Yet the last couple of weeks, I have been noticing a change. Many of them are now publishing stories suggesting Jones will likely be back or has won the right to be back. Here is a sample of the articles I am seeing
How Daniel Jones is winning over the Giants ... and earning a chance to stay
At the beginning of the year it seemed unlikely Jones would get the chance to stay beyond this year ... now, it seems unlikely the Giants will choose to move on
By Ed Valentine
https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/23/23522332/how-daniel-jones-is-winning-over-the-giants-and-earning-a-chance-to-stay
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2022, 07:53:22 AMEither way, it's approaching midnight and we're going to find out Schoen's decision soon enough. Sadly, it will just trigger a new round of Jones debates.
That is going to be make some popcorn and get ready to read stuff!
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 08:44:24 AMI am curious, did you post this because you consider Shannon Sharpe an expert on football and you respect his views and opinions or did you post it because his opinions match your own?
I don't view him as an expert on things, he is more entertaining to me than anything.
Sure, it summarizes my views on him in a short sentence rather than the constant back and forth. Do you not also post things that align with your views and opinions as well?
I think JAG perfectly describes what Daniel is, not good, not bad, just somewhere in the middle, you can do better, and you can also do worse. He can maybe keep a ship from sinking, but he isn't gonna steer it to the promised land either.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 08:47:42 AMI have noticed a major change in the beat writers' views on DJ. For most of the season, they have pretty much been on the fence or really not dove into the whole does DJ stay or go debate. Yet the last couple of weeks, I have been noticing a change. Many of them are not publishing stories suggesting Jones will likely be back or has won the right to be back. Here is a sample of the articles I am seeing
How Daniel Jones is winning over the Giants ... and earning a chance to stay
At the beginning of the year it seemed unlikely Jones would get the chance to stay beyond this year ... now, it seems unlikely the Giants will choose to move on
By Ed Valentine
https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/23/23522332/how-daniel-jones-is-winning-over-the-giants-and-earning-a-chance-to-stay
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or doesn't thinks.
These beat writers have zero influence if he stays or goes. JS & Dabs will decide that, the reports both for and against, are in no place to determine how likely something is to happen. The ones that are, will make that call, within the next couple of months. They don't care what side of it we are all on, they are on the side they are and will act accordingly. Some of us will like it, some of us won't, we will see what is what soon enough.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:54:23 AMAt the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or doesn't thinks.
These beat writers have zero influence if he stays or goes. JS & Dabs will decide that, the reports both for and against, are in no place to determine how likely something is to happen. The ones that are, will make that call, within the next couple of months. They don't care what side of it we are all on, they are on the side they are and will act accordingly. Some of us will like it, some of us won't, we will see what is what soon enough.
Exactly!
500 posts and pages of debate here also have ZERO influence on what happens.
JS and Dabs will make the call and then 1/2 will bitch and 1/2 will gloat
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 08:50:53 AMThat is going to be make some popcorn and get ready to read stuff!
I may have to take a Moderator Holiday just so I can enjoy it!!! ;) =)) =))
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2022, 09:03:19 AMI may have to take a Moderator Holiday just so I can enjoy it!!! ;) =)) =))
=)) =)) =))
I'll fill in for ya!!! 🤣🤣
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 08:59:22 AMExactly!
500 posts and pages of debate here also have ZERO influence on what happens.
JS and Dabs will make the call and then 1/2 will bitch and 1/2 will gloat
This 100%, if DJ stays, I won't like it, but I will hope for the best, and hope I am wrong. In that scenario hopefully it isn't a contract that screws them for many years like what Denver is dealing with.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 09:06:54 AMThis 100%, if DJ stays, I won't like it, but I will hope for the best, and hope I am wrong. In that scenario hopefully it isn't a contract that screws them for many years like what Denver is dealing with.
I'm not opposed to Jones coming back on a reasonable 1-2 year deal provided that there isn't a QB this regime loves in the draft. What I oppose is a large long term deal for Jones.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 09:06:54 AMThis 100%, if DJ stays, I won't like it, but I will hope for the best, and hope I am wrong. In that scenario hopefully it isn't a contract that screws them for many years like what Denver is dealing with.
JS seems frugal!
I don't see him spending like a drunken sailor on leave!
Whoever he signs this offseason at any position, I think is a fair and reasonable contract for their position and ability.
Look at the Bills roster and contracts. That's his foundation. It makes sense to look how that team is built and compare.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 09:10:55 AMJS seems frugal!
I don't see him spending like a drunken sailor on leave!
Whoever he signs this offseason at any position, I think is a fair and reasonable contract for their position and ability.
Look at the Bills roster and contracts. That's his foundation. It makes sense to look how that team is built and compare.
I still have this fear in the back of my head that John Mara will once again step in and force Schoen's hand. Sure it is probably unlikely but I still don't trust Mara.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 09:18:48 AMI still have this fear in the back of my head that John Mara will once again step in and force Schoen's hand. Sure it is probably unlikely but I still don't trust Mara.
It's a fear cause he has meddled for years.
We need to keep fingers crossed that is behind us.
Here are some stats from todays article
"Jones has career-bests in completion percentage (66.0) and passer rating (90.5). His on-target throw percentage of 80.5 and bad throw percentage of just 12.5 are also the best of his career. He also had 6.6 percent of his passes dropped, the worst percentage of his career and an indication of the lack of help he has received at times."
"Jones has also run for a career-high 583 yards, with his running ability emerging as a major weapon for the Giants' offense."
"Jones has thrown just four interceptions this season, fewest of any NFL starting quarterback. His interception percentage of 1.0 is a career- and league-best. He has also fumbled a career-low five times despite carrying the ball 105 times (his previous career high in carries was 65) and being sacked a career-worst 9.2 percent of the time when he attempts to pass."
"The lack of fumbles is particularly impressive. He has now fumbled only 12 times in his last 25 games. Combine Jones' carries and sacks, the times he would possibly fumble, and he is averaging one fumble every 29.2 times he is hit. Over his first two seasons he fumbled 29 times on 193 combined carries and sacks, an average of once every 6.7 times."
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:51:30 AMI don't view him as an expert on things, he is more entertaining to me than anything.
Sure, it summarizes my views on him in a short sentence rather than the constant back and forth. Do you not also post things that align with your views and opinions as well?
I think JAG perfectly describes what Daniel is, not good, not bad, just somewhere in the middle, you can do better, and you can also do worse. He can maybe keep a ship from sinking, but he isn't gonna steer it to the promised land either.
To answer your question. I strive to post quality content. I try to find sources that I consider experts. I strive to post things from both sides of quality content can be found on both sides. I have posted many things negative about Jones over his years with the Giants. Although lately, finding quality content that is negative about Jones is a pretty challenging task. So to answer the subtext of your question, I don't curate the material I post based on how it aligns with my views and opinions.
Of course, another reason that my views tend to match what I post is I tend to listen to expert opinions. I consider their arguments and points; I consider the soundness of their arguments as well as their credentials. If that all checks out, I will often adopt those points of view.
Maybe it's just me, but my goal isn't to be right; it's to get it right (as the former Giants scout Greg Gabriel likes to say).
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:54:23 AMAt the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or doesn't thinks.
These beat writers have zero influence if he stays or goes. JS & Dabs will decide that, the reports both for and against, are in no place to determine how likely something is to happen. The ones that are, will make that call, within the next couple of months. They don't care what side of it we are all on, they are on the side they are and will act accordingly. Some of us will like it, some of us won't, we will see what is what soon enough.
I think it's sort of stating the obvious that beat writers lack influence over the team. I mean, in all my decades as a Giants fan, I only witnessed the media truly impacting the team, once. They helped whip up the fan frenzy over Eli Manning being benched for Geno Smith. That frenzy convinced Mara to fire Reese and McAdoo before the season was out and hire a GM who was willing to try and rebuild the team around Eli for one more run.
While the media doesn't really hold sway over the team, it's not to say their reports lack value. One thing the media enjoy over us, the fans, is better access to the team. They get to talk to players and members of the organization on and off the record. So beat writers generally have a better take on the "pulse of the team" than others.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 09:29:34 AMTo answer your question. I strive to post quality content. I try to find sources that I consider experts. I strive to post things from both sides of quality content can be found on both sides. I have posted many things negative about Jones over his years with the Giants. Although lately, finding quality content that is negative about Jones is a pretty challenging task. So to answer the subtext of your question, I don't curate the material I post based on how it aligns with my views and opinions.
Of course, another reason that my views tend to match what I post is I tend to listen to expert opinions. I consider their arguments and points; I consider the soundness of their arguments as well as their credentials. If that all checks out, I will often adopt those points of view.
Maybe it's just me, but my goal isn't to be right; it's to get it right (as the former Giants scout Greg Gabriel likes to say).
:hmm:
Definitely just you, because it sure seems you are gung ho on trying to prove anyone not in favor of Jones to be wrong. Or was I imagining the thread where you literally said we were all wrong for disagreeing with the posts you shared, or every other post after trying to prove us wrong or change our minds? If I dreamt all that I apologize
I am sure you would say we do the same, although that is not true at all. We just want someone that can take us to the next level, yet the picture gets painted like we think hes a mobile Jamarcus Russel or something. No one has said he is terrible, but that is what people want to think or assume, which we all know what happens when one does that.
Anyone who posts one side of a discussion or argument is biased. No matter how they justify in their heads. With the exception of a few people like Tim, DB, Slugger who are more open minded. If you haven't noticed, I've posted both positive and negative about this QB. Usually to just balance the discussion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 08:44:24 AMI am curious, did you post this because you consider Shannon Sharpe an expert on football and you respect his views and opinions or did you post it because his opinions match your own?
Shannon Sharpe as many know is a 'shock jock' and those ESPN boys LOVE stirring the NY pot. That opinion means quite little. I'll take the multitude of more trustworthy analysts and guys that watch this team a ton more closely than what is quite likely a shock jock peripheral opinion.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 10:00:40 AM:hmm:
Definitely just you, because it sure seems you are gung ho on trying to prove anyone not in favor of Jones to be wrong. Or was I imagining the thread where you literally said we were all wrong for disagreeing with the posts you shared, or every other post after trying to prove us wrong or change our minds? If I dreamt all that I apologize
I am sure you would say we do the same, although that is not true at all. We just want someone that can take us to the next level, yet the picture gets painted like we think hes a mobile Jamarcus Russel or something. No one has said he is terrible, but that is what people want to think or assume, which we all know what happens when one does that.
TBF,
I think the issue is more of your strong desire to prove yourself right. You guys seem so driven by that, that your views of what happens are greatly skewed. That strong desire has created situations where you do exactly what you admit to, posting things that agree with your opinion. That sort of approach rarely leads to good or correct outcomes.
There is a perfect example on this thread. The two Youtube videos were posted and were created by random dudes. One was pro-Jones and called out haters, and the other was anti-Jones and called his supporters a cult (or something similar). The pro-Jones video was ignored by all of you guys, you couldn't be bothered. The anti-Jones video got all sorts of love and support from the Jones critics. Objectively, the two videos were identical in terms of the quality and expertise of the source material. Yet it wasn't hard to see how differently the critics viewed the material. You will notice I did not like the Pro-Jones video because it failed my criteria for quality material.
That is hardly an isolated issue. Because you guys are so driven, there are often flawed approaches to trying to prove your correctness. Can you really blame me for pointing out obvious flaws?
That all said, I don't think my statements should be applied as blanket statements toward or describing those critical of Daniel Jones. I am posting a thread by Ed Vette. He has made it clear, over the last couple of seasons that he isn't a Jones supporter. Yet, he clearly is open-minded and willing to adjust his views as more is learned. This post of his is one of the best I have seen (especially on this topic) in quite some time
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 21, 2022, 11:04:11 AMIt's really not luck. They have to have an eye for QB evaluation and they have to do their due diligence. Take the highly touted draft of Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Jackson. It was very clear what was there. Mayfield short with character/maturity issues. Rosen work ethic/leadership issues. Darnold wildly erratic with poor decision making, Allen cannon arm, mobile but poor mechanics on a bad team. Jackson, weak arm but extremely mobile and a fit for the right offense.
I was never a fan of Murray and the entire draft class looked weak. Still Jones was the at or near the top of that class and it was evident in that last bowl game. Quite frankly if he was in most other teams he wouldn't have gotten this far. Most QB never get nurtured and properly developed and teams give up on them. Mara was in love with this kid. He was the next Eli Manning. Looked the part and played the part.
Sometimes a QB has strong character strengths and is resilient like Geno Smith who was dealt a xxxx hand. It was obvious to me the game he came in for Eli that this kid had game. Wrong place, wrong time and wrong organization (and I'll leave it at that).
I have to say that I'm not sold on Jones as a long term solution but I am very impressed with how he has worked through his challenges and weaknesses and this team can do a hell of a lot worse. He still has processing issues and the alarm factor comes in on pressure and his peripheral vision may be a liability but this kid has resilience and a strong desire to succeed. And I wouldn't bet against that, especially with an organization who completely and wholeheartedly supports him. A man like that has a higher ceiling than I or anyone else gives him credit for.
Now consider your reaction to my post about what the beat writers are saying. Instead of acknowledging the access they have to the team (which allows for better insights), you talked about how beat writers don't decide who stays or goes. From my vantage point, that does not sound like you are willing to entertain information that doesn't fit your existing point of view.
Here's the thing, in a few months' time, we will all learn if Jones is staying or going. Regardless of the outcome, I will neither be right nor wrong. For me, it will mean the biggest piece of the puzzle has been revealed (what Schoen and Dabble feel about Jones), and that's all that matters. I will support whatever decision is made because, at this point I have no reason not to trust the judgment of both men (appreciating they know more than we do both about football and the situation).
If Jones stays I will be happy because I support the players on the team, and if Jones is the answer it means a quicker path to relevance. If Jones goes I will be fine because clearly Daboll and Schoen don't see him as the answer and it's better to pull that bandaid off fast. Nothing to be gained from keeping a guy around you don't think will help you achieve the success you seek.
Heck, they could keep him short-term just because they don't see a path to a proper upgrade this offseason, but long term they do intend to replace him. No matter the path I am fine with it and I will neither be right nor will I be wrong. I will simply be a fan hoping for the best
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 12:29:13 AMAnd when he gets better receivers (not guys we as fans have to work hard to come up with stats to make them look like they are somehow high end receivers) he will likely make the jump up in passing stats much like Josh Allen, Tua, Hurts, Lawrence all did.
Jones is nowhere in those guys league. It's just fictional at this point.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 10:45:17 AMJones is nowhere in those guys league. It's just fictional at this point.
Many argued Eli was nowhere in the league of his brother and a bunch of other QBs. Yet he won 2 SuperBowls. Just sayin'
And Eli had a different stratoshpere of quality that Reese afforded him throughout his career at WR and TE.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 10:51:40 AMMany argued Eli was nowhere in the league of his brother and a bunch of other QBs. Yet he won 2 SuperBowls. Just sayin'
And Eli had a different stratoshpere of quality that Reese afforded him throughout his career at WR and TE.
Outside of having similar personalities, being white and physically the same size Eli and Daniel Jones are nothing a like in their games.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 10:28:59 AMTBF,
I think the issue is more of your strong desire to prove yourself right. You guys seem so driven by that, that your views of what happens are greatly skewed. That strong desire has created situations where you do exactly what you admit to, posting things that agree with your opinion. That sort of approach rarely leads to good or correct outcomes.
There is a perfect example on this thread. The two Youtube videos were posted and were created by random dudes. One was pro-Jones and called out haters, and the other was anti-Jones and called his supporters a cult (or something similar). The pro-Jones video was ignored by all of you guys, you couldn't be bothered. The anti-Jones video got all sorts of love and support from the Jones critics. Objectively, the two videos were identical in terms of the quality and expertise of the source material. Yet it wasn't hard to see how differently the critics viewed the material. You will notice I did not like the Pro-Jones video because it failed my criteria for quality material.
That is hardly an isolated issue. Because you guys are so driven, there are often flawed approaches to trying to prove your correctness. Can you really blame me for pointing out obvious flaws?
That all said, I don't think my statements should be applied as blanket statements toward or describing those critical of Daniel Jones. I am posting a thread by Ed Vette. He has made it clear, over the last couple of seasons that he isn't a Jones supporter. Yet, he clearly is open-minded and willing to adjust his views as more is learned. This post of his is one of the best I have seen (especially on this topic) in quite some time
Now consider your reaction to my post about what the beat writers are saying. Instead of acknowledging the access they have to the team (which allows for better insights), you talked about how beat writers don't decide who stays or goes. From my vantage point, that does not sound like you are willing to entertain information that doesn't fit your existing point of view.
Here's the thing, in a few months' time, we will all learn if Jones is staying or going. Regardless of the outcome, I will neither be right nor wrong. For me, it will mean the biggest piece of the puzzle has been revealed (what Schoen and Dabble feel about Jones), and that's all that matters. I will support whatever decision is made because, at this point I have no reason not to trust the judgment of both men (appreciating they know more than we do both about football and the situation).
If Jones stays I will be happy because I support the players on the team, and if Jones is the answer it means a quicker path to relevance. If Jones goes I will be fine because clearly Daboll and Schoen don't see him as the answer and it's better to pull that bandaid off fast. Nothing to be gained from keeping a guy around you don't think will help you achieve the success you seek.
Heck, they could keep him short-term just because they don't see a path to a proper upgrade this offseason, but long term they do intend to replace him. No matter the path I am fine with it and I will neither be right nor will I be wrong. I will simply be a fan hoping for the best
We aren't as determined to be as right as you think. There is a difference between sharing one's opinions, and trying to change peoples minds and telling them they are wrong. At the end of the day perception is reality.
I don't try to make anyone pro Jones anti Jones. If someone thinks another way that's fine. Many times I have tried tontell others we agree to disagree. I just try to talk about it, that's what forums are for, to discuss things.
Sure there are some debates, but I don't try to stir up controversy for the sake of website clicks or more star votes and likes on a topic I might post.
You on the other hand have very bluntly called others wrong for having an opinion different to you or Nick Felato and co. If you want to debate or challenge something, that is all fine and well. You clearly have made claims in previous topics that what you think is a fact. So, I do not think there is any way you can claim you do not desire to be right. If you think otherwise to each their own.
I can care less if I am right or wrong, I do not have to like Jones because the all 22 film or lack of interceptions on 2 yard throws say hes having a great year. If they resign Jones or not, I'm gonna root for my team and hope they win regardless of who plays. I'm not a GM, what I think means diddly, I never once claimed to be an expert. I have a fan's opinion, when we see what JS and BD really think, I'm just gonna trust them and hope they're right. I'm a Giants fan first and foremost.
Sure, I may engage in a debate or argument, and explain my thoughts or stance. That doesn't mean I have a desire to be right. At the end of the day like skmeone else said, anyone with an opinion is biased. I just don't try to change minds or claim to have facts. All I have is an opinion and I am happy to discuss or explain why. But, any stats, links or thoughts I share, I can confidently say that I stick by them always, not just when it is convenient for whatever point I am trying to make in a given topic.
The shine is going to come off Tua sooner rather than later. Lack of arm strength and lack of mobility and injuries are going to catch up to him soon.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 10:27:46 AMShannon Sharpe as many know is a 'shock jock' and those ESPN boys LOVE stirring the NY pot. That opinion means quite little. I'll take the multitude of more trustworthy analysts and guys that watch this team a ton more closely than what is quite likely a shock jock peripheral opinion.
He doesn't work for ESPN and is a hall of fame TE... Shock Jock? You guys will take Lawrence Tynes the former kickers thoughts on DJ but not one of the greatest TEs to ever play. Got it, kinda ridiculous though.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 23, 2022, 07:22:41 AMThat number is always skewed since DJ can scramble to buy more time and not to mention the amount of playactions we run especially earlier in the season.
Exactly. Ignoring how his his scrambling affects his time to throw still comes up. But if he spends a lot of the 5 second average running for his life it is hardly the same as sitting in a nice clean pocket surveying the field for 5 seconds. And the idea that there are metrics that counter the notion that a 40% increase in sacks is an indication that pass pro got worse doesn't pass my smell test. It seems like an excuse for the O-line, to me.
But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion - I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. In the end this will all be determined by football people when we see what the Giants and other teams think in cold hard cash, and then his how his future performance goes.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:22:51 AMhttps://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1595928496496574464
I'm not sure whether citing Shannon Sharpe helps or hurts your case, LOL.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 11:06:28 AMI'm not sure whether citing Shannon Sharpe helps or hurts your case, LOL.
I'm not trying to help or hurt anything, he made a comment, I agree hes just a guy, that's where it ends lol
If anyone thinks otherwise that is perfectly fine.
Article from a month ago, specifically before the Dallas Loss. Executives polled seemed split, but even those wanting him retained only suggested a 1 year deal, and the other suggested to not retain him at all because he lacks the ability to win in dropback passing situations.
"The franchise tag for a quarterback is estimated at $31.5 million next season, according to the salary cap site Over the Cap. Jones made under $4 million this year, and five quarterbacks -- Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray and Derek Carr -- are currently slated to make over $31 million next season".
"The Giants could absorb the hefty salary next year, with ample salary-cap space. But they also have to figure out a solution for Barkley, who seems like a prime candidate for the franchise tag in back-to-back years. The franchise tag for a running back is estimated to be in the $10-12 million range".
"That would leave the Giants needing to find a middle ground with Jones or turn to backup Tyrod Taylor for a much more manageable $5.5 million".
"One NFC general manager figured the Giants' "best option'' would be to re-sign Jones this offseason. Another executive with a potential NFC playoff team said there is "no way" he would build around the 2019 No. 6 overall pick, citing what he considered an inability to win in traditional drop-back situations, and the Giants' success in Daboll's scaled-back offense".
"An NFL executive with experience negotiating contracts suggested a one-year deal for midlevel money would make the most sense for both parties. Something in the $15 million to $20 million range".
"That is assuming there won't be a big, long-term deal out there for Jones".
"He's a bridge to the real future starter," the executive said.
"Another source pointed to the two-year, $28 million contract ($21 million guaranteed) Jameis Winston signed with the New Orleans Saints this past offseason as an example of what might work with Jones".
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35077485/what-does-daniel-jones-need-prove-part-giants-future
There is only one opinion that matters!
That's the Giants specifically JS!
Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.
Everyone has a right to their opinion! It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.
https://youtu.be/-YuJy-RgKvs
Dan Orlovsky saying Jones has done enough to come back and compete next season. That he doesn't know if he's the starter but he's done enough to be given a chance to compete.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:21:33 AMThere is only one opinion that matters!
That's the Giants specifically JS!
Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.
Everyone has a right to their opinion! It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.
Amen! :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 23, 2022, 10:24:45 AMAnyone who posts one side of a discussion or argument is biased. No matter how they justify in their heads. With the exception of a few people like Tim, DB, Slugger who are more open minded. If you haven't noticed, I've posted both positive and negative about this QB. Usually to just balance the discussion.
I feel like I'm in a strange position here as I simultaneously believe that:
A) he is seriously under-rated here - with an average NFL-quality OL and a decent set of NFL-quality WRs (not 'elites at every position' as some have tried to frame it) I think he can be a top ten QB in the league. If you look at it like horse-racing where they handicap the horses, he is currently carrying some of the highest weights in the field - and will do considerably better when he only has to carry average weight.
B) the best thing the Giants can do is let him (and Barkley) go so they have fully freed up resources to focus on attacking their many holes, solidifying the holes in a promising defense and adding quality in an offense, and to continue the horse analogy, reducing the handicap weight so the next guy gets a fair shot at developing during his rookie contract, something DJ's never had.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 10:58:24 AMOutside of having similar personalities, being white and physically the same size Eli and Daniel Jones are nothing a like in their games.
Leadership, toughness, an inability to perform well when the offense is trash, ability to flash in 4th quarter situations.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 11:28:21 AMI feel like I'm in a strange position here as I simultaneously believe that:
A) he is seriously under-rated here - with an average NFL-quality OL and a decent set of NFL-quality WRs (not 'elites at every position' as some have tried to frame it) I think he can be a top ten QB in the league. If you look at it like horse-racing where they handicap the horses, he is currently carrying some of the highest weights in the field - and will do considerably better when he only has to carry average weight.
B) the best thing the Giants can do is let him (and Barkley) go so they have fully freed up resources to focus on attacking their many holes, solidifying the holes in a promising defense and adding quality in an offense, and to continue the horse analogy, reducing the handicap weight so the next guy gets a fair shot at developing during his rookie contract, something DJ's never had.
AZ
I agreed and disagree at the same time.
I don't want to see home grown talent leave and be successful elsewhere!
So letting them walk I'm torn!
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 11:11:30 AMI'm not trying to help or hurt anything, he made a comment, I agree hes just a guy, that's where it ends lol
If anyone thinks otherwise that is perfectly fine.
Despite having been a great player, I've never looked at him as being any kind of football mind. Not nearly as good a football mind as his brother. IOW, when it comes to football knowledge his is JAG.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:21:33 AMThere is only one opinion that matters!
That's the Giants specifically JS!
Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.
Everyone has a right to their opinion! It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.
JS and the GMs of the several teams looking for a QB.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 11:37:18 AMJS and the GMs of the several teams looking for a QB.
The other teams will ONLY come into play IF the Giants let him test the market.
Otherwise if you believe the rules no other team or their representatives can speak to DJ or his agent and manipulate that price.
Personally I don't believe teams follow this rule!
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 10:59:21 AMWe aren't as determined to be as right as you think. There is a difference between sharing one's opinions, and trying to change peoples minds and telling them they are wrong. At the end of the day perception is reality.
I don't try to make anyone pro Jones anti Jones. If someone thinks another way that's fine. Many times I have tried tontell others we agree to disagree. I just try to talk about it, that's what forums are for, to discuss things.
Sure there are some debates, but I don't try to stir up controversy for the sake of website clicks or more star votes and likes on a topic I might post.
You on the other hand have very bluntly called others wrong for having an opinion different to you or Nick Felato and co. If you want to debate or challenge something, that is all fine and well. You clearly have made claims in previous topics that what you think is a fact. So, I do not think there is any way you can claim you do not desire to be right. If you think otherwise to each their own.
I can care less if I am right or wrong, I do not have to like Jones because the all 22 film or lack of interceptions on 2 yard throws say hes having a great year. If they resign Jones or not, I'm gonna root for my team and hope they win regardless of who plays. I'm not a GM, what I think means diddly, I never once claimed to be an expert. I have a fan's opinion, when we see what JS and BD really think, I'm just gonna trust them and hope they're right. I'm a Giants fan first and foremost.
Sure, I may engage in a debate or argument, and explain my thoughts or stance. That doesn't mean I have a desire to be right. At the end of the day like skmeone else said, anyone with an opinion is biased. I just don't try to change minds or claim to have facts. All I have is an opinion and I am happy to discuss or explain why. But, any stats, links or thoughts I share, I can confidently say that I stick by them always, not just when it is convenient for whatever point I am trying to make in a given topic.
Didn't you just tell me you posted a Shannon Sharpe Tweet not because you consider him an expert, but because you liked what he said?
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:21:33 AMThere is only one opinion that matters!
That's the Giants specifically JS!
Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.
Everyone has a right to their opinion! It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.
Technically there are two opinions that matter. Schoen's AND Daboll's
Schoen wouldn't be a very good GM if he didn't factor in what Daboll thinks of Daniel Jones (or any other player for that matter)
Quote from: AP44 on December 23, 2022, 11:02:33 AMThe shine is going to come off Tua sooner rather than later. Lack of arm strength and lack of mobility and injuries are going to catch up to him soon.
I think injuries are going to be his issue with longevity.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 10:59:21 AMWe aren't as determined to be as right as you think. There is a difference between sharing one's opinions, and trying to change peoples minds and telling them they are wrong. At the end of the day perception is reality.
I don't try to make anyone pro Jones anti Jones. If someone thinks another way that's fine. Many times I have tried tontell others we agree to disagree. I just try to talk about it, that's what forums are for, to discuss things.
Sure there are some debates, but I don't try to stir up controversy for the sake of website clicks or more star votes and likes on a topic I might post.
You on the other hand have very bluntly called others wrong for having an opinion different to you or Nick Felato and co. If you want to debate or challenge something, that is all fine and well. You clearly have made claims in previous topics that what you think is a fact. So, I do not think there is any way you can claim you do not desire to be right. If you think otherwise to each their own.
I can care less if I am right or wrong, I do not have to like Jones because the all 22 film or lack of interceptions on 2 yard throws say hes having a great year. If they resign Jones or not, I'm gonna root for my team and hope they win regardless of who plays. I'm not a GM, what I think means diddly, I never once claimed to be an expert. I have a fan's opinion, when we see what JS and BD really think, I'm just gonna trust them and hope they're right. I'm a Giants fan first and foremost.
Sure, I may engage in a debate or argument, and explain my thoughts or stance. That doesn't mean I have a desire to be right. At the end of the day like skmeone else said, anyone with an opinion is biased. I just don't try to change minds or claim to have facts. All I have is an opinion and I am happy to discuss or explain why. But, any stats, links or thoughts I share, I can confidently say that I stick by them always, not just when it is convenient for whatever point I am trying to make in a given topic.
Didn't you just tell me you posted a Shannon Sharp tweet not because you think he is an expert whose opinions you value, but because his views matched your own?
Quote from: AP44 on December 23, 2022, 11:02:33 AMThe shine is going to come off Tua sooner rather than later. Lack of arm strength and lack of mobility and injuries are going to catch up to him soon.
Tua probably looks down at his uniform to make sure he isn't back in Alabama (the last time, he was throwing to extremely talented wide-open receivers).
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 11:31:33 AMLeadership, toughness, an inability to perform well when the offense is trash, ability to flash in 4th quarter situations.
Eli was never a game manager. As far as ability to flash in 4th quarter situations, yes with Jones's legs that was something Eli's game never had. Not with Jones's ability to throw the ball down the field.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 11:49:55 AMDidn't you just tell me you posted a Shannon Sharpe Tweet not because you consider him an expert, but because you liked what he said?
Technically there are two opinions that matter. Schoen's AND Daboll's
Schoen wouldn't be a very good GM if he didn't factor in what Daboll thinks of Daniel Jones (or any other player for that matter)
Yes but as GM he takes the responsibility on, it won't be Dabs that gets blamed for his signing and contract it will be JS!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 11:16:53 AMArticle from a month ago, specifically before the Dallas Loss. Executives polled seemed split, but even those wanting him retained only suggested a 1 year deal, and the other suggested to not retain him at all because he lacks the ability to win in dropback passing situations.
"The franchise tag for a quarterback is estimated at $31.5 million next season, according to the salary cap site Over the Cap. Jones made under $4 million this year, and five quarterbacks -- Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray and Derek Carr -- are currently slated to make over $31 million next season".
"The Giants could absorb the hefty salary next year, with ample salary-cap space. But they also have to figure out a solution for Barkley, who seems like a prime candidate for the franchise tag in back-to-back years. The franchise tag for a running back is estimated to be in the $10-12 million range".
"That would leave the Giants needing to find a middle ground with Jones or turn to backup Tyrod Taylor for a much more manageable $5.5 million".
"One NFC general manager figured the Giants' "best option'' would be to re-sign Jones this offseason. Another executive with a potential NFC playoff team said there is "no way" he would build around the 2019 No. 6 overall pick, citing what he considered an inability to win in traditional drop-back situations, and the Giants' success in Daboll's scaled-back offense".
"An NFL executive with experience negotiating contracts suggested a one-year deal for midlevel money would make the most sense for both parties. Something in the $15 million to $20 million range".
"That is assuming there won't be a big, long-term deal out there for Jones".
"He's a bridge to the real future starter," the executive said.
"Another source pointed to the two-year, $28 million contract ($21 million guaranteed) Jameis Winston signed with the New Orleans Saints this past offseason as an example of what might work with Jones".
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35077485/what-does-daniel-jones-need-prove-part-giants-future
This is the sort of high-quality article I like. Unfortunately, in terms of drawing a good conclusion, even people who are qualified to judge are all over the board.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:55:48 AMYes but as GM he takes the responsibility on, it won't be Dabs that gets blamed for his signing and contract it will be JS!
Fair point, ultimately it will be on Schoen. Although, get it wrong, in the NFL it's likely Dabs goes before Schoen does.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/23/23522332/how-daniel-jones-is-winning-over-the-giants-and-earning-a-chance-to-stay
How Daniel Jones is winning over the Giants ... and earning a chance to stay
SB Nation tends to be a puff piece more times then not but it's info that is out there on how some are seeing it.
Agree to disagree or agree
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 11:51:45 AMDidn't you just tell me you posted a Shannon Sharp tweet not because you think he is an expert whose opinions you value, but because his views matched your own?
Ok? It's a quote I copied because I also think DJ is just a guy essentially. Was it coupled with me trying to changes ones view? No, it was a mere quote nothing more or less. Not sure what the point you are trying to make is with this one
https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/21/23519250/how-much-would-you-pay-to-keep-daniel-jones-as-giants-quarterback
#:-S :-??
This won't make some here happy if it comes to this
:surprise:
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 12:07:25 PMhttps://www.bigblueview.com/2022/12/21/23519250/how-much-would-you-pay-to-keep-daniel-jones-as-giants-quarterback
#:-S :-??
This won't make some here happy if it comes to this
:surprise:
That's way too much to pay a game manager even a really good one. Problem is and I saw this somewhere the other day is that when it comes to QB's salaries post rookie contract there really isn't a middle ground for their salaries. There are the $30+ million salaries that make up the top 10+ and the rest are $15 million and below.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 12:10:47 PMThat's way too much to pay a game manager even a really good one. Problem is and I saw this somewhere the other day is that when it comes to QB's salaries post rookie contract there really isn't a middle ground for their salaries. There are the $30+ million salaries that make up the top 10+ and the rest are $15 million and below.
This is what the OWNERS and the NFL has created! Hence why I say complaining about the cap and what players get paid is not worth it! Cause these owners keep over paying willingly in the HOPE to out do the other 31 owners
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:40:03 AMThe other teams will ONLY come into play IF the Giants let him test the market.
Otherwise if you believe the rules no other team or their representatives can speak to DJ or his agent and manipulate that price.
Personally I don't believe teams follow this rule!
Unless the Giants offer him the kind of big money contract that would cause heads to explode around here I think he'd be foolish not test the FA market and see what is out there. But there we go talking about money again. :greetings: :P
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 12:10:47 PMThat's way too much to pay a game manager even a really good one. Problem is and I saw this somewhere the other day is that when it comes to QB's salaries post rookie contract there really isn't a middle ground for their salaries. There are the $30+ million salaries that make up the top 10+ and the rest are $15 million and below.
That's the problem right there, I don't think Jones is a superstar but I don't think he's garbage either. I think he's ok but not for 20 or 30 million a year. Tannehill got a 4yr 118 million and because of that aav of 29 million a year coupled with Henry's contract, those two single handedly handicapped the Titans. We got Adoree because of that, and the Eagles got AJ Brown, they lost most of their home grown talent on defense and offense because of a contract for a great RB and decent QB.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 12:33:35 PMThat's the problem right there, I don't think Jones is a superstar but I don't think he's garbage either. I think he's ok but not for 20 or 30 million a year. Tannehill got a 4yr 118 million and because of that aav of 29 million a year coupled with Henry's contract, those two single handedly handicapped the Titans. We got Adoree because of that, and the Eagles got AJ Brown, they lost most of their home grown talent on defense and offense because of a contract for a great RB and decent QB.
Can 2 people single handedly do something? LOL
Just teasing.
Lets look at it from a different perspective. Whatever your thoughts are on DJ, the overwhelming majority of the local media (many of whom are quite tuned in) has been increasingly all saying the same thing. Expect DJ back. This is not some hunch...its based on what they are hearing from inside the walls of Mara-tech.
So barring some DJ meltdown, serious injury, or huge impasse in negotiations, DJ is very, very likely the QB for next year and beyond.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 02:40:07 PMLets look at it from a different perspective. Whatever your thoughts are on DJ, the overwhelming majority of the local media (many of whom are quite tuned in) has been increasingly all saying the same thing. Expect DJ back. This is not some hunch...its based on what they are hearing from inside the walls of Mara-tech.
So barring some DJ meltdown, serious injury, or huge impasse in negotiations, DJ is very, very likely the QB for next year and beyond.
You lost me at media being well tuned in!
These flakes run with what they think gets them clicks!
We do not have an impressive lot of journalists (I use that term loosely) reporting on our Giants!
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 02:40:07 PMLets look at it from a different perspective. Whatever your thoughts are on DJ, the overwhelming majority of the local media (many of whom are quite tuned in) has been increasingly all saying the same thing. Expect DJ back. This is not some hunch...its based on what they are hearing from inside the walls of Mara-tech.
So barring some DJ meltdown, serious injury, or huge impasse in negotiations, DJ is very, very likely the QB for next year and beyond.
What it is going off of the old Giants regime and how they used to operate and leak. It ignores that John Mara is not running football operations anymore Joe Schoen is. And just like it was thought that Thibodeaux wouldn't be on the Giants draft board this past spring the reality is no one has the inside to what this franchise is planning for especially when Schoen has given no indications in interviews that they've tried to negotiate with Jones's agent.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 02:45:32 PMYou lost me at media being well tuned in!
These flakes run with what they think gets them clicks!
We do not have an impressive lot of journalists (I use that term loosely) reporting on our Giants!
They all had contacts in the old regime run by the Mara cronies that are either no longer working for the Giants or are less influential than they used to be.
Personally, I find it astonishing, outrageous even, that a group of people who have zero NFL experience, either as a coach, executive, scout, or player, and (barring perhaps one or two exceptions) have never played serious college football even, think they are more knowledgeable about this sport or a specific player than a Hall of Fame TE who won three Super Bowls, was a first team all pro four times, and spent a number of years practicing and playing with one of the ten greatest QBs ever to play this game (John Elway).
For some random dude sitting at home or at work in front of his computer who has never sniffed an NFL paycheck to refer to Shannon Sharpe as a "shock-jock", and for others here to deny that he's an expert on this sport (or imply as much), simply because what he had to say doesn't happen to suit their agendas, shows how far some are willing to go to defend their views and besmirch others whom they have absolutely no business doing that to and look ridiculous while doing it.
It is especially hard to fathom considering a lot of these same people post random tweets and articles written by some random nobody with zero professional football credentials just because the content is attempting to pump a certain player up that they want to see pumped up.
Pretty wild and crazy stuff if you ask me. But hey, the truth is that nothing really surprises me that much anymore these days.
Believe what you will. I am placing DJs return at like 80-85% (barring some unforeseen circumstance as mentioned above)
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 03:00:52 PMPersonally, I find it astonishing, outrageous even, that a group of people who have zero NFL experience, either as a coach, executive, scout, or player, and (barring perhaps one or two exceptions) have never played serious college football even, think they are more knowledgeable about this sport or a specific player than a Hall of Fame TE who won three Super Bowls, was a first team all pro four times, and spent a number of years practicing and playing with one of the ten greatest QBs ever to play this game (John Elway).
For some random dude sitting at home or at work in front of his computer who has never sniffed an NFL paycheck to refer to Shannon Sharpe as a "shock-jock", and for others here to deny that he's an expert on this sport (or imply as much), simply because what he had to say doesn't happen to suit their agendas, shows how far some are willing to go to defend their views and besmirch others whom they have absolutely no business doing that to and look ridiculous while doing it.
It is especially hard to fathom considering a lot of these same people post random tweets and articles written by some random nobody with zero professional football credentials just because the content is attempting to pump a certain player up that they want to see pumped up.
Pretty wild and crazy stuff if you ask me. But hey, the truth is that nothing really surprises me that much anymore these days.
This! Well said DB
Although I would not label him as an "expert", I would like to think someone who is aware of things going on league wide, with a resume like his as a player and on screen analyst (or whatever his position is called now), and who has many great personal connections and friendships with many players, coaches, and people in the league, both past AND PRESENT, would have more credibility than random reporters chasing clicks, views, and subscriptions.
This has no connection to the post I shared, that was what it is, a quote. But I damn sure take those type of people over some of the sources used here to try to "prove people wrong", expert or not.
Especially when something shared and expressed as fact, clearly shows an opinion. Posts starting with "to me" and ending in "idk" is not a fact, it is lame attempt to stir up controversy.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 03:18:31 PMBelieve what you will. I am placing DJs return at like 80-85% (barring some unforeseen circumstance as mentioned above)
And quite frankly no one cares, it is all BS!!!!!!! You do not know any better than we do. Regardless of what we think or don't think, regardless of what we agree on or disagree on. WE. ALL. KNOW. NOTHING.
It is either 0% or 100%, only Joe and Dabs know which it is, and we will find out soon enough.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 03:23:41 PMAnd quite frankly no one cares, it is all BS!!!!!!! You do not know any better than we do. Regardless of what we think or don't think, regardless of what we agree on or disagree on. WE. ALL. KNOW. NOTHING.
It is either 0% or 100%, only Joe and Dabs know which it is, and we will find out soon enough.
Exactly!!!
It's pulling numbers out of thin air and no statistical way to back it up!
I think it's 50.5376% he gets a new deal 🤷🏻�♂️🤷🏻�♂️🤷🏻�♂️🤷🏻�♂️🤷🏻�♂️🤷🏻�♂️
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 03:18:31 PMBelieve what you will. I am placing DJs return at like 80-85% (barring some unforeseen circumstance as mentioned above)
This isn't rocket science; the Giants may be forced to offer DJ a limited contract, transition, or franchise tag him. This has little to do with their confidence in him as a player; instead, it's a byproduct of a weak 2022 QB draft class, and their relative 2023 draft position. In short, DJ may be forced upon them for another year or two. I suspect a transition tag myself. Yet, I haven't seen a single report that indicates the Giants willingness ti offer a five year, 100+ Million dollar contract. There's a big difference between the two paradigms. You're acting like the media reports indicate the Giants are ready to hand him a franchise type deal, which simply isn't true.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 03:18:31 PMBelieve what you will. I am placing DJs return at like 80-85% (barring some unforeseen circumstance as mentioned above)
When you make a prediction the exact opposite tends to happen. So keep making them.
I know we're not creating more Daniel Jones threads (which I am fully supportive of), so I'll ask this question here:
Very simply, where do you most closely fit in to these three categories regarding Daniel Jones' future on the Giants?
A. I want Jones back, period. I am in favor of paying whatever it takes to keep him here, and I want him to be here long term. I view him as a franchise QB. He is the guy.
B. I would be happy to have Jones back, but only up to a certain price, and I only want to be committed for a relatively small number of years.
C. I don't want Jones back next year, period. It's time to move in another direction.
I expect many who respond to classify themselves in the "B" group. If so, can you please clearly indicate what your absolute limit would be, both in terms of AAV and in terms of total years of the contract?
I think we have a lot of back and forth on Jones and a lot of arguing. There is a lot of noise. With Jones' fourth year just about over (as far as the regular season), how about folks put down on paper where they actually stand in terms of what THEY want regarding his future? And not just trying to predict what actually WILL happen. What would you actually like to see happen?
Thanks.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 04:58:41 PMI know we're not creating more Daniel Jones threads (which I am fully supportive of), so I'll ask this question here:
Very simply, where do you most closely fit in to these three categories regarding Daniel Jones' future on the Giants?
A. I want Jones back, period. I am in favor of paying whatever it takes to keep him here, and I want him to be here long term. I view him as a franchise QB. He is the guy.
B. I would be happy to have Jones back, but only up to a certain price, and I only want to be committed for a relatively small number of years.
C. I don't want Jones back next year, period. It's time to move in another direction.
I expect many who respond to classify themselves in the "B" group. If so, can you please clearly indicate what your absolute limit would be, both in terms of AAV and in terms of total years of the contract?
I think we have a lot of back and forth on Jones and a lot of arguing. There is a lot of noise. With Jones' fourth year just about over (as far as the regular season), how about folks put down on paper where they actually stand in terms of what THEY want regarding his future? And not just trying to predict what actually WILL happen. What would you actually like to see happen?
Thanks.
Dave
Sorry but I have to answer D.
D) being I'll entrust JS to make the right call and do what right by the Giants and their fans. Whichever the decision may be.
I say this cause it doesn't fit into any of your 3 choices.
Idc at this point what he gets paid. If JS decides to spend on him, he then has to find a way to make this team win and get to the big game or he has failed.
He knows this! He is not stupid! So if he is going to spend on Jones he must have a plan.
If he doesn't sign Jones and he goes elsewhere I'll hope he is right, hope Jones doesn't take another team to the promised land and hope that whatever QB JS gets can get us there.
This is where I am at!
I get it, it's a lot of hope but after a decade of defeat I gotta hang onto something
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 05:08:03 PMDave
Sorry but I have to answer D.
D) being I'll entrust JS to make the right call and do what right by the Giants and their fans. Whichever the decision may be.
I say this cause it doesn't fit into any of your 3 choices.
Idc at this point what he gets paid. If JS decides to spend on him, he then has to find a way to make this team win and get to the big game or he has failed.
He knows this! He is not stupid! So if he is going to spend on Jones he must have a plan.
If he doesn't sign Jones and he goes elsewhere I'll hope he is right, hope Jones doesn't take another team to the promised land and hope that whatever QB JS gets can get us there.
This is where I am at!
I get it, it's a lot of hope but after a decade of defeat I gotta hang onto something
Ok, if you're agnostic on the money side of things, I get that.
How about this: Do you want him back, or not?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 04:58:41 PMI know we're not creating more Daniel Jones threads (which I am fully supportive of), so I'll ask this question here:
Very simply, where do you most closely fit in to these three categories regarding Daniel Jones' future on the Giants?
A. I want Jones back, period. I am in favor of paying whatever it takes to keep him here, and I want him to be here long term. I view him as a franchise QB. He is the guy.
B. I would be happy to have Jones back, but only up to a certain price, and I only want to be committed for a relatively small number of years.
C. I don't want Jones back next year, period. It's time to move in another direction.
I expect many who respond to classify themselves in the "B" group. If so, can you please clearly indicate what your absolute limit would be, both in terms of AAV and in terms of total years of the contract?
I think we have a lot of back and forth on Jones and a lot of arguing. There is a lot of noise. With Jones' fourth year just about over (as far as the regular season), how about folks put down on paper where they actually stand in terms of what THEY want regarding his future? And not just trying to predict what actually WILL happen. What would you actually like to see happen?
Thanks.
Im content riding with one of the several FA Qbs for cheap or Tyrod for a couple of seasons until we find our guy. I'll go B, with a 1 year 8 million dollar deal with a team option for a 2nd year at 9 million. So technically 2 year 17 million with an opt out for the Giants after this coming season. The 2 year 17 is in line with his production and what other Qbs with his production have made in the open market. With up to 12 teams needing Qbs it could inflate Jones price, inwhich case I'm comfortable with him walking and taking a Brisset, Tyrod, Minshew, or Mayfield for a year until we get our guy.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 05:12:29 PMOk, if you're agnostic on the money side of things, I get that.
How about this: Do you want him back, or not?
I've said it before in other posts I'm completely at a loss on this topic.
I saw the player he could be his rookie year. The player I'm seeing today is different. The player he was the middle two years wasn't impressed but I give a pass due to what he was working with.
I don't know how to fairly evaluate him.
I can't believe the player from year 1 (minus the turnovers) is gone into this dink and dunk uninspiring offense.
He has an arm, he is accurate long! It makes no sense!!!
Idk if it's just the WRs or him. Is it a plan Dabs has for him? Idk idk idk! It drives me nuts!
I read these forums and I can see each fans side of it and relate and understand where both sides are coming from.
I HATE BEING Sweden here as you all know I'm not a middle of the road kinda guy! Lol but this is one I'm completely lost on so I'm putting more trust then I care to in JS to do the right thing for the Giants and I'll be ok with it, for now lol!
Great idea, Dave!
Considering the Giants 2023 relative draft position, I think it's wise to bring him back via franchise or transition tag. I like jess' idea; however, I don't believe DJ will accept that contract offer, nor should he. He's worth more than 1 yr/$8 million deal. If you consider he's a mid-tier quarterback, he's worth at least 25 million a year. I am not in favor of a long-term, 100+ million dollar deal.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 03:23:41 PMAnd quite frankly no one cares, it is all BS!!!!!!! You do not know any better than we do. Regardless of what we think or don't think, regardless of what we agree on or disagree on. WE. ALL. KNOW. NOTHING.
It is either 0% or 100%, only Joe and Dabs know which it is, and we will find out soon enough.
Why are you objecting to Blue Fire's opinion?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 04:58:41 PMI know we're not creating more Daniel Jones threads (which I am fully supportive of), so I'll ask this question here:
Very simply, where do you most closely fit in to these three categories regarding Daniel Jones' future on the Giants?
A. I want Jones back, period. I am in favor of paying whatever it takes to keep him here, and I want him to be here long term. I view him as a franchise QB. He is the guy.
B. I would be happy to have Jones back, but only up to a certain price, and I only want to be committed for a relatively small number of years.
C. I don't want Jones back next year, period. It's time to move in another direction.
I expect many who respond to classify themselves in the "B" group. If so, can you please clearly indicate what your absolute limit would be, both in terms of AAV and in terms of total years of the contract?
I think we have a lot of back and forth on Jones and a lot of arguing. There is a lot of noise. With Jones' fourth year just about over (as far as the regular season), how about folks put down on paper where they actually stand in terms of what THEY want regarding his future? And not just trying to predict what actually WILL happen. What would you actually like to see happen?
Thanks.
I am not sure this is the best framing. Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to. They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.
To me, it makes little sense to view this strickly as a salary issue.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:28:20 PMI am not sure this is the best framing. Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to. They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.
To me, it makes little sense to view this strickly as a salary issue.
This notion only makes sense if you choose to look at it in a vacuum. The Giants may wish to go another direction; yet, the relative draft position may not afford them the opportunity to do so. We saw this for multiple years with Washington and cousins. We'll know if this is accurate if the Giants only offer a minimum contract, or use the franchise or transition tag. If they think he's the answer, they'll offer the multiyear/big money contract.
Besides, this isn't what Dave is asking. Dave is asking what do YOU want.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 05:35:30 PMThis notion only makes sense if you choose to look at it in a vacuum. The Giants may wish to go another direction; yet, the relative draft position may not afford them the opportunity to do so. We saw this for multiple years with Washington and cousins. We'll know if this is accurate if the Giants only offer a minimum contract, or use the franchise or transition tag. If they think he's the answer, they'll offer the multiyear/big money contract.
Besides, this isn't what Dave is asking. Dave is asking what do YOU want.
Actually, Matt, it's quite the reverse. You guys are looking at Jones in a vacuum. Schoen, if he is a good GM is looking at the QB position as just one piece in the team-building puzzle. As for what I want, I am not so unrealistic to think I know more about Jones than the people who are directly coaching him. Frankly, the only scenario that I would find disappointing is if Schoen wanted Jones back at a given price, but another team signed him away for more money.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:58:02 PMActually, Matt, it's quite the reverse. You guys are looking at Jones in a vacuum. Schoen, if he is a good GM is looking at the QB position as just one piece in the team-building puzzle. As for what I want, I am not so unrealistic to think I know more about Jones than the people who are directly coaching him. Frankly, the only scenario that I would find disappointing is if Schoen wanted Jones back at a given price, but another team signed him away for more money.
.
None of this has anything to do with expressing what you would like to see happen. I have already expressed my opinion, I would like to see DJ back on a one or two year deal.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:01:17 PM.
None of this has anything to do with expressing what you would like to see happen. I have already expressed my opinion, I would like to see DJ back on a one or two year deal.
You are correct, which is why I don't think this issue should be framed as how much to pay
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:22:56 PMWhy are you objecting to Blue Fire's opinion?
How am I objecting? If you actually read before jumping at people's throats, you would see I'm not claiming one side is wrong, but simply no one from either side, including myself know a thing. We can all throw around whatever random numbers and statistics out of our asses that we want, fact is none of us know nothing, and none of us will know anything until the powers that be make the decisions on this teams personel.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 03:00:52 PMPersonally, I find it astonishing, outrageous even, that a group of people who have zero NFL experience, either as a coach, executive, scout, or player, and (barring perhaps one or two exceptions) have never played serious college football even, think they are more knowledgeable about this sport or a specific player than a Hall of Fame TE who won three Super Bowls, was a first team all pro four times, and spent a number of years practicing and playing with one of the ten greatest QBs ever to play this game (John Elway).
For some random dude sitting at home or at work in front of his computer who has never sniffed an NFL paycheck to refer to Shannon Sharpe as a "shock-jock", and for others here to deny that he's an expert on this sport (or imply as much), simply because what he had to say doesn't happen to suit their agendas, shows how far some are willing to go to defend their views and besmirch others whom they have absolutely no business doing that to and look ridiculous while doing it.
It is especially hard to fathom considering a lot of these same people post random tweets and articles written by some random nobody with zero professional football credentials just because the content is attempting to pump a certain player up that they want to see pumped up.
Pretty wild and crazy stuff if you ask me. But hey, the truth is that nothing really surprises me that much anymore these days.
Maybe it's that lots of other professionals have given an opposite argument and included analysis while the guy in question makes his money by providing controversial opinions and just threw out a clickbait tweet without anything behind it. I have a much higher regard for his brother Sterling, who used to do that show with Baldinger analyzing upcoming match-ups. I don't see a lot of Shannon, but I can't recall ever seeing him doing any serious analysis.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 06:05:10 PMYou are correct, which is why I don't think this issue should be framed as how much to pay
I'm seriously interested in why you're deflecting? Why are you avoiding the Question? I also completely disagree the aggregate salary doesn't matter in a league with a hard salary cap. I promise you the Giants analytics department will provide a number relative to DJs projected production. In the NFL, salary absolutely matters and should be part of this discussion.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 06:29:10 PMHow am I objecting? If you actually read before jumping at people's throats, you would see I'm not claiming one side is wrong, but simply no one from either side, including myself know a thing. We can all throw around whatever random numbers and statistics out of our asses that we want, fact is none of us know nothing, and none of us will know anything until the powers that be make the decisions on this teams personel.
Calling BF's opinions "BS" and claiming "no one cares" about his opinions seems like a reasonable interpretation of an objection, I would think. It's also inaccurate as I for one care to hear what his opinions are.
I am curious, though, how is asking "why are you objecting to BF's opinion, "jumping down someone's throat." Maybe it's me but that sort of hyperbole makes me think you are trying to paint yourself as some sort of victim.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 06:36:47 PMMaybe it's that lots of other professionals have given an opposite argument and included analysis while the guy in question makes his money by providing controversial opinions and just threw out a clickbait tweet without anything behind it. I have a much higher regard for his brother Sterling, who used to do that show with Baldinger analyzing upcoming match-ups. I don't see a lot of Shannon, but I can't recall ever seeing him doing any serious analysis.
That's true for everyone whose revenue and/or contacts is predicated by viewership. It's all about content, regardless of the accuracy of said content. I'd recommend posters do their own critical thinking and analysis, vice consuming multiple podcasts.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:38:58 PMI'm seriously interested in why you're deflecting? Why are you avoiding the Question? I also completely disagree the aggregate salary doesn't matter in a league with a hard salary cap. I promise you the Giants analytics department will provide a number relative to DJs projected production. In the NFL, salary absolutely matters and should be part of this discussion.
Your commentary makes it sound like you are not familiar with the concept of framing. DB's question served to frame the issue in a way he (and clearly you) wanted to frame it. Not accepting the framing isn't "deflecting.", as the wrong framing can often cloud an issue or skew an issue.
As for your promise, I highly doubt they will set his cap number based on his production, no matter how much you wish that to be the case.
Also, the claim about salary cap mattering is a bit of a strawman as I never suggested salary cap wouldn't matter. Although how much it matters will depend on what Schoen and Daboll consider DJ's future potential to be.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 06:46:20 PMYour commentary makes it sound like you are not familiar with the concept of framing. DB's question served to frame the issue in a way he (and clearly you) wanted to frame it. Not accepting the framing isn't "deflecting.", as the wrong framing can often cloud an issue or skew an issue.
As for your promise, I highly doubt they will set his cap number based on his production, no matter how much you wish that to be the case.
Also, the claim about salary cap mattering is a bit of a strawman as I never suggested salary cap wouldn't matter. Although how much it matters will depend on what Schoen and Daboll consider DJ's future potential to be.
Rich, I can't ask it anymore plainly: what do you want the Giants to do with DJ? There's no framing or alternative motive. It's a simple question.
So, the Giants million-dollar analytics department doesn't have any culpability in the Giants biggest decision in the last five years? They're not going to provide the Giants decision making any relevant data, projections, or or relative value information? If you believe that, you clearly have never been exposed to Analytics. The analytics department will give the Giants decision makers a number however, it will be up to the Giants decide to go beyond that or not.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:03:32 PMRich, I can't ask it anymore plainly: what do you want the Giants to do with DJ? There's no framing or alternative motive. It's a simple question.
So, the Giants million-dollar analytics department doesn't have any culpability in the Giants biggest decision in the last five years? They're not going to provide the Giants decision making any relevant data, projections, or or relative value information? If you believe that, you clearly have never been exposed to Analytics. The analytics department will give the Giants decision makers a number however, it will be up to the Giants decide to go beyond that or not.
Matt,
I have already explained what I want (and would expect) the Giants to do with DJ is based entirely on what Daboll and Schoen believe DJ's potential is and what they expect from him moving forward. In my opinion, it's sort of pointless to talk about dollars without knowing that. You guys are certainly free to speculate, though.
To clarify, the analytics department may play a role, but it's highly unlikely they will be doing what you suggested, which is to set a dollar value based on past production. The analytics department will more likely set dollar values for various levels of anticipated performance which Joe would use as guidelines in any negotiations.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:42:58 PMThat's true for everyone whose revenue and/or contacts is predicated by viewership. It's all about content, regardless of the accuracy of said content. I'd recommend posters do their own critical thinking and analysis, vice consuming multiple podcasts.
Hence why I don't post these kinds of things myself. But there are a lot of guys who provide meat to get eyeballs, not just pure clickbait that is devoid of content beyond just a throwaway opinion. Like the guy who does the detailed film breakdowns under 'Talking Giants', Bobby Skinner, or the guy who did the Thib's breakdown over the last 3 games that I posted - I don't even know the name or credentials of the guy who runs 'The Football Scout' but I know his breakdown deepened my understanding. I'd love to see him do a similar video on this last, monster, game Thibs had. Or the guy who does the QB School website who did a nice breakdown after the London game. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_YlNSwUME&t=9s
For me, things like this provide actual value.
And considering that my position on Jones is pretty unique on this board, I think it's clear that I don't follow any of these guys as gurus, I do my own thinking. You may not agree with my thinking, but it is my own.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:08:34 PMMatt,
I have already explained what I want (and would expect) the Giants to do with DJ is based entirely on what Daboll and Schoen believe DJ's potential is and what they expect from him moving forward. In my opinion, it's sort of pointless to talk about dollars without knowing that. You guys are certainly free to speculate, though.
To clarify, the analytics department may play a role, but it's highly unlikely they will be doing what you suggested, which is to set a dollar value based on past production. The analytics department will more likely set dollar values for various levels of anticipated performance which Joe would use as guidelines in any negotiations.
That's exactly what analytics does; it will provide a value relative to DJs predictive performance going forward. The number will be computed based on sophisticated algorithms that use literal thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of data points...maybe more. It will be up to the Giants brass do use this data or not; however, I assure you, the Giants analytics department will play a significant role in the decision to retain DJ, and recommend a relative value. It's literally what they do.
Also, would you mind providing a link to your thoughts on what the giant should do with DJ. I must have missed it would enjoy reading your musings.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 07:24:19 PMHence why I don't post these kinds of things myself. But there are a lot of guys who provide meat to get eyeballs, not just pure clickbait that is devoid of content beyond just a throwaway opinion. Like the guy who does the detailed film breakdowns under 'Talking Giants' or the guy who did the Thib's breakdown over the last 3 games that I posted - I don't even know the name or credentials ofthe guy who runs 'The football scout's but I know his breakdown deepened my understanding. I'd love to see him do a similar video on this last, monster, game Thibs had. Or the guy who does the QB School website who did a nice breakdown after the London game. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_YlNSwUME&t=9s
For me, things like this provide actual value.
And considering that my position on Jones is pretty unique on this board, I think it's clear that I don't follow any of these guys as gurus, I do my own thinking. You may not agree with my thinking, but it is my own.
Sounds like where in violent agreement, Rich.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 05:18:21 PMI've said it before in other posts I'm completely at a loss on this topic.
I saw the player he could be his rookie year. The player I'm seeing today is different. The player he was the middle two years wasn't impressed but I give a pass due to what he was working with.
I don't know how to fairly evaluate him.
I can't believe the player from year 1 (minus the turnovers) is gone into this dink and dunk uninspiring offense.
He has an arm, he is accurate long! It makes no sense!!!
Idk if it's just the WRs or him. Is it a plan Dabs has for him? Idk idk idk! It drives me nuts!
I read these forums and I can see each fans side of it and relate and understand where both sides are coming from.
I HATE BEING Sweden here as you all know I'm not a middle of the road kinda guy! Lol but this is one I'm completely lost on so I'm putting more trust then I care to in JS to do the right thing for the Giants and I'll be ok with it, for now lol!
Totally fair answer. You're being honest about how you feel. I could never ask for more than that.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:25:28 PMThat's exactly what analytics does; it will provide a value relative to DJs predictive performance going forward. The number will be computed based on sophisticated algorithms that use literal thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of data points...maybe more. It will be up to the Giants brass do use this data or not; however, I assure you, the Giants analytics department play a significant role in your decision to retain DJ and at what about value... It's literally what they do.
Also, would you mind providing link to your thoughts on what the giant should do with DJ. I must have missed it would enjoy reading your musings.
I'll save you the click
Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to. They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 05:28:20 PMI am not sure this is the best framing. Either Joe and Dabs believe DJ is the future so you pay what you have to. They think he is the answer, at least short term, so you offer what you think he is worth, or the don't want him and let him walk.
To me, it makes little sense to view this strickly as a salary issue.
I don't agree with this post. We have heard Schoen repeatedly talk about value. We heard him specifically say that he might be interested in someone like Jeudy in a trade, but only up to a certain price limit. If he can get it done within that limit, then great. If not, then he has no problem walking away. He has also said they're constantly evaluating their own players.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, you seem to be saying that they first make a binary decision as to whether they want a player (such as Jones) or not, and that money has nothing to do with that part of the decision, and then if they decide yes, they pay whatever they need to pay to get it done.
Based on what I have heard Schoen say himself in interviews when he talks about how he thinks about players from a value point of view, I don't believe he approaches things this way. I think there are limits to what he is willing to pay for players, or what he is willing to accept for players in trades, or how high he is willing to draft players, etc. I don't think it's just a yes or no question with him, and then pay whatever it takes if the answer is yes. I think he is a GM for whom value and price are always part of the discussion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 06:46:20 PMYour commentary makes it sound like you are not familiar with the concept of framing. DB's question served to frame the issue in a way he (and clearly you) wanted to frame it. Not accepting the framing isn't "deflecting.", as the wrong framing can often cloud an issue or skew an issue.
As for your promise, I highly doubt they will set his cap number based on his production, no matter how much you wish that to be the case.
Also, the claim about salary cap mattering is a bit of a strawman as I never suggested salary cap wouldn't matter. Although how much it matters will depend on what Schoen and Daboll consider DJ's future potential to be.
MG,
If you personally don't want money to be part of the discussion that you involve yourself in, that is obviously fine. Two of the three options I provided actually have nothing to do with money. One can simply say "I want him back no matter what" or "I don't want him back under any circumstances." Neither of those has anything to do with salary. Salary is only an issue in this exercise if you choose to make it so by picking the only one out of the three options where it comes into play. So I'm not sure why you're so hung up on it.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 07:32:35 PMI don't agree with this post. We have heard Schoen repeatedly talk about value. We heard him specifically say that he might be interested in someone like Jeudy in a trade, but only up to a certain price limit. If he can get it done within that limit, then great. If not, then he has no problem walking away. He has also said they're constantly evaluating their own players.
If I'm understanding your post correctly, you seem to be saying that they first make a binary decision as to whether they want a player (such as Jones) or not, and that money has nothing to do with that part of the decision, and then if they decide yes, they pay whatever they need to pay to get it done.
Based on what I have heard Schoen say himself in interviews when he talks about how he thinks about players from a value point of view, I don't believe he approaches things this way. I think there are limits to what he is willing to pay for players, or what he is willing to accept for players in trades, or how high he is willing to draft players, etc. I don't think it's just a yes or no question with him, and then pay whatever it takes if the answer is yes. I think he is a GM for whom value and price are always part of the discussion.
I am not sure how you got binary from three options. Might be my fault, as things were broken up with some rather poor punctuation.
option 1- They think he is their franchise QB. If that's the case you pay him what you pay franchise QBs not much the team can do, you don't let franchise QB leave (especially at age 25)
option 2- You think he might be a franchise QB or perhaps just good enough to be a bridge until someone better comes along. In this case, Schoen will set a value and likely stick with it, even at the risk of losing him
option 3- You don't think Jones is the answer and you simply let him walk.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:38:57 PMI am not sure how you got binary from three options. Might be my fault, as things were broken up with some rather poor punctuation.
option 1- They think he is their franchise QB. If that's the case you pay him what you pay franchise QBs not much the team can do, you don't let franchise QB leave (especially at age 25)
option 2- You think he might be a franchise QB or perhaps just good enough to be a bridge until someone better comes along. In this case, Schoen will set a value and likely stick with it, even at the risk of losing him
option 3- You don't think Jones is the answer and you simply let him walk.
Ok, I agree that these are the three possibilities from Schoen/Daboll's perspective. I'm on the same page with that.
What I'm asking though is what members here would actually like to see happen themselves, based on all their observations of Daniel Jones throughout his four years here. Not what they think the conundrum is for our front office/coaching staff. I am trying to get a sense of what fans here actually want themselves.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 07:42:44 PMOk, I agree that these are the three possibilities from Schoen/Daboll's perspective. I'm on the same page with that.
What I'm asking though is what members here would actually like to see happen themselves, based on all their observations of Daniel Jones throughout his four years here. Not what they think the conundrum is for our front office/coaching staff. I am trying to get a sense of what fans here actually want themselves.
DB,
Two huge variables are missing to hazard any meaningful guess. First, because of the issues surrounding Jones regarding talent deficits, the only ones who really can properly evaluate Jones are Daboll and Schoen. Second, as has been mentioned previously, there is no middle-class salary tier in the NFL. There are franchise QBs, QBs on rookie deals, and not good enough/backups.
So you are asking to establish what DJ is worth (which I can't really say) and establish a new middle-class salary tier. I am certainly not going to begrudge you your speculation, but for me, there isn't enough information to hazard a quality guess.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:51:59 PMDB,
Two huge variables are missing to hazard any meaningful guess. First, because of the issues surrounding Jones regarding talent deficits, the only ones who really can properly evaluate Jones are Daboll and Schoen. Second, as has been mentioned previously, there is no middle-class salary tier in the NFL. There are franchise QBs, QBs on rookie deals, and not good enough/backups.
So you are asking to establish what DJ is worth (which I can't really say) and establish a new middle-class salary tier. I am certainly not going to begrudge you your speculation, but for me, there isn't enough information to hazard a quality guess.
MG,
Why is it a "guess" to simply state whether you want him back or not?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 07:51:59 PMDB,
Two huge variables are missing to hazard any meaningful guess. First, because of the issues surrounding Jones regarding talent deficits, the only ones who really can properly evaluate Jones are Daboll and Schoen. Second, as has been mentioned previously, there is no middle-class salary tier in the NFL. There are franchise QBs, QBs on rookie deals, and not good enough/backups.
So you are asking to establish what DJ is worth (which I can't really say) and establish a new middle-class salary tier. I am certainly not going to begrudge you your speculation, but for me, there isn't enough information to hazard a quality guess.
Rich,
The question has nothing to do with having the available information to glean what the Giants might do. It's actually quite simple. What would you, as a Giants fan, want to happen. We're not front office personnel; so, we can speculate without having the necessary information as there's no repercussions.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 07:53:27 PMMG,
Why is it a "guess" to simply state whether you want him back or not?
If you want to know if I want him back or not, I can answer that. I want him back, BUT only if that is what Daboll and Schoen want. It's the quickest path to becoming a contender. On the other hand, if Daboll and Schoen don't want him back or want him back only at the right price, that's what I want (in those scenarios).
We all see that the Giants are running a rather unique (or perhaps limited is a better term) offense, and production is not where we want it to be. How much of that is due to poor blocking, a lack of receiving targets, or any limitations that Dabs and Kafka feel Daniel Jones has, is something none of us really know (if we are being completely honest with ourselves). Without knowing that, I don't see how we could want or not want him back
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:56:57 PMRich,
The question has nothing to do with having the available information to glean what the Giants might do. It's actually quite simple. What would you, as a Giants fan, want to happen. We're not front office personnel; so, we can speculate without having the necessary information as there's no repercussions.
Matt,
I believe I addressed this in my previous post to DB. Let me know if that was enough.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:26:01 PMSounds like where in violent agreement, Rich.
Maybe on process, but not on outcome.
Ironically you don't seem to like Jones that much but now seem to be willing to transition tag him if they don't have a suitable draft target, while I like Jones a lot* but I think the 28 million the tag would cost is too much and would be too much of an impediment to resigning our key players and filling some of our myriad holes with solid middle cost players and maybe one bigger signing. Same reason I prefer not signing Barkley. The Giants window of opportunity with Jones closed when they failed to use the years of his cheap rookie contract to successfully build out the team. But he is worth good money to a team that is built out already but who lack a QB, IMO.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I like Jones more than you do, but you are more willing to transition tag him than I am.
*I've previously opined that on an offense with a competent NFL quality OL and NFL quality receivers (not an offense with elites at every position, as some have distorted the position) Jones would be a top ten QB. My sense is you wouldn't agree.
Of course there is a decent chance that I am completely wrong, which is why I'm glad I'm not making the decisions. :yes:
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 08:01:46 PMIf you want to know if I want him back or not, I can answer that. I want him back, BUT only if that is what Daboll and Schoen want.
Ok got it, thanks.
Rich,
I like Jones and have repeatedly stated he ranks between 12 and 18, which I think is high praise. However, when I view the NFL through a modern lens, I realize it's difficult to remain consistently competitive without a top 12 quarterback. A review of teams who pay mid-tier quarterbacks excessive money, have relative success, and can't seem to get past teams with Top 10 QBs. I simply don't want that for our Giants.
I recommended the transition or franchise tag because it allows them to retain DJ without obligating future funds. To be clear, I want to retain DJ for the same reason the Giants did not replace him this year. They will not be in a position to draft anyone better; to that point, if there was somebody worthy of a top 10 pick last year, I sincerely believe the Giants would've drafted his replacement.
Moreover, the Giants are in great cap situation next year and can absorb the hit. More to the point, the Giants are not one year away from winning a championship. They might need another year and another shot at the draft to get their Guy. FA QBs are never the answer...
Now, if there's a quarterback they really like, I'm all for expending multiple draft picks to move up to acquire said quarterback.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 08:03:14 PMMatt,
I believe I addressed this in my previous post to DB. Let me know if that was enough.
The follow up to Dave explained your position...took a few post to get there tho :D
Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 08:15:43 PMThe follow up to Dave explained your position...took a few post to get there tho :D
I know there are some on our forums that frown on debate. Personally I like debate. I often find it's a key part of my process. It helps me test and refine my thoughts.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 23, 2022, 08:21:08 PMI know there are some on our forums that frown on debate. Personally I like debate. I often find it's a key part of my process. It helps me test and refine my thoughts.
I agree. Debate is actually healthy...
3 pages to answer a multiple choice question is something I've personally never seen before lol.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 08:42:26 PM3 pages to answer a multiple choice question is something I've personally never seen before lol.
Nuance is difficult with a multiple choice questions. It is not a multiple choice world. My own position didn't fit anywhere within those choices.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 23, 2022, 09:05:19 PMNuance is difficult with a multiple choice questions. It is not a multiple choice world. My own position didn't fit anywhere within those choices.
Neither does mine!
But crazy enough for once Rich and I are fairly close lol
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 12:13:10 AMNeither does mine!
But crazy enough for once Rich and I are fairly close lol
I actually believe 90%+ agrees on DJs potential future. The fringes (he stinks or he'll be elite with a top-tier Wr) are minor.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 24, 2022, 12:30:55 AMI actually believe 90%+ agrees on DJs potential future. The fringes (he stinks or he'll be elite with a top-tier Wr) are minor.
I'm in a different 'fringe', apparently. I think he could become elite on a team that has an offense with a reasonable amount of NFL-level quality. And as I said before I'm not talking about the hyperbolic distortion some have read into this and claimed I want an elite guy at every position.
Alas, I think circumstances have made this impossible to occur for the Giants, because they needed to get to that point of a reasonable amount of quality on the offense while he was on his rookie contract and they didn't. So now he is more valuable to a team that has this, but no QB, than he is to the Giants, who don't have this yet and need to build it out over the next year or two. Letting DJ and Barkley walk would accelerate the build out. IMO, needless to say.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 12:13:10 AMNeither does mine!
But crazy enough for once Rich and I are fairly close lol
frightening isn't it :scared: :crazy: :laugh: :greetings:
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 24, 2022, 07:17:24 AMfrightening isn't it :scared: :crazy: :laugh: :greetings:
Just proves Christmas miracles do happen :surrender:
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 23, 2022, 11:32:33 PM
Jones has great command of an offense that is 22nd in total yards, 28th in passing yards and at the top of the league in fewest turnovers. Put it all together and it says that Daniel Jones is a highly efficient game manager.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 24, 2022, 01:28:11 AMI'm in a different 'fringe', apparently. I think he could become elite on a team that has an offense with a reasonable amount of NFL-level quality. And as I said before I'm not talking about the hyperbolic distortion some have read into this and claimed I want an elite guy at every position.
Alas, I think circumstances have made this impossible to occur for the Giants, because they needed to get to that point of a reasonable amount of quality on the offense while he was on his rookie contract and they didn't. So now he is more valuable to a team that has this, but no QB, than he is to the Giants, who don't have this yet and need to build it out over the next year or two. Letting DJ and Barkley walk would accelerate the build out. IMO, needless to say.
He could be elite if you gave him the 90's Cowboys offensive line, the 98 Vikings WR's, Marshall Faulk as his RB and Tony Gonzalez as his tight end. :ok:
Check this out.... a great angle/view of DJs 4th and 9 play vs Washington....Enjoy!:
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 24, 2022, 09:02:32 AMJones has great command of an offense that is 22nd in total yards, 28th in passing yards and at the top of the league in fewest turnovers. Put it all together and it says that Daniel Jones is a highly efficient game manager.
He could be elite if you gave him the 90's Cowboys offensive line, the 98 Vikings WR's, Marshall Faulk as his RB and Tony Gonzalez as his tight end. :ok:
Fine, so long as you understand that is you saying that, not me. I've never claimed he needs elites at every position, just a reasonable amount of quality on the ofense, something he has never had here.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 24, 2022, 10:15:15 AMFine, so long as you understand that is you saying that, not me. I've never claimed he needs elites at every position, just a reasonable amount of quality on the ofense, something he has never had here.
In salary cap era, reasonable amount of quality on offense,' especially the offensive lines, is a luxury. Consider Joe Burrow, his line has and continues to stink...he was putting up top 5 numbers without Chase for over a month too. Herbert's had worse offensive lines than DJ and had an amazing rookie season and continues to dominate. We also know Mahomes OLs stunk prior to this year; speaking of this year, Mahomes has been without his top 3 WRs multiple weeks this season and is throwing to a bunch of meh guys; obviously, this doesn't include Kelce. The point is, very few teams get to enjoy the Eagles' luxury, which includes multiple 'reasonable' players at all levels. Finally, these QBs have earned the term elite because they have been HIGHLY successful without 'a reasonable amount of quality on offense.' That's what makes them unique. Moreover, let's stop pretending DJ is playing without talent; at the end of the season, his LT and RB will be APs...that's not bad!
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 08:40:22 AMJust proves Christmas miracles do happen :surrender:
Awww, c'mon, we agree about a lot of things. :drunk: :cheers: :drunk:
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 24, 2022, 10:15:15 AMFine, so long as you understand that is you saying that, not me. I've never claimed he needs elites at every position, just a reasonable amount of quality on the ofense, something he has never had here.
He's had it here he just hasn't had the elite quality to prop him up.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 24, 2022, 10:15:15 AMFine, so long as you understand that is you saying that, not me. I've never claimed he needs elites at every position, just a reasonable amount of quality on the ofense, something he has never had here.
His rookie year at least approached half decent quality in the pass game and a half decent system (but a really bad OL) . Despite having to work on rookie ball security issues he threw for 24tds in 12 games. Every year after its been much worse.
Quote from: Blue Fire on December 24, 2022, 12:55:37 PMHis rookie year at least approached half decent quality in the pass game and a half decent system (but a really bad OL) . Despite having to work on rookie ball security issues he threw for 24tds in 12 games. Every year after its been much worse.
What he's shown is that when things are opened up he is vulnerable to turnovers as it was his rookie year. Despite the offensive line and coaching improving Jones still isn't producing at the level you would want in someone you are committing $25-$30+ million a season.
Well we see what Jones can do vs a bad defense even with questionable wr group ....
Could this be how he plays on the regular if he has a legit wr group that can challenge and play vs the good defenses of the league ?
I actually prefer this Jones game than any he's played all season, with the start to Jacksonville being a close 2nd. His placement was extremely erratic all day throwing high and behind. After the first drive were he was short of the sticks on the 3rd down throw at least he was throwing beyond the sticks and attempting to attack. It's the worst pass defense in the league, but I'd rather us play like this every game instead of being conservative so at least we have a definitive answer one way or another.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 24, 2022, 04:26:32 PMI actually prefer this Jones game than any he's played all season, with the start to Jacksonvillebeing a close 2nd. His placement was extremely erratic all day throwing high and behind. After the first drive were he was short of the sticks on the 3rd down throw at least he was throwing beyond the sticks and attempting to attack. It's the worst pass defense in the league, but I'd rather us play like this every game instead of being conservative so at least we have a definitive answer one way or another.
His placement was erratic early and then he played an outstanding game. A game where he had poor pass protection and his receivers were not helping him. Your right though, they put it on Jones and he passed the test
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 24, 2022, 04:30:56 PMHis placement was erratic early and then he played an outstanding game. A game where he had poor pass protection and his receivers were not helping him. Your right though, they put it on Jones and he passed the test
Jones clearly missed wide open reads, and had bad placement all game but it was still one of his better games. Outside of 3 plays the line protected well all game and the wrs caught balls. Anything to support your narrative though right Rich? You think Barkley running it on 4th and 2 for a Td was putting it on Jones then by all means. Not sure how you can pass a test and lose a game but sure.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 24, 2022, 04:40:04 PMJones clearly missed wide open reads,
I don't recall seeing that and I am almost certain the announcers didn't mention it (if it was that clear you would think they would have mentioned it.
Dak threw a pick 6 when he had his guy open ...
This sh** happens.... Jones has to be perfect though
Daniel Jones needs to be able to throw over 300 yards and lead a 4th qtr drive with his passing.
Daniel Jones throws over 300 yards and leads a 4th qtr drive with his passing.
Not good enough.
Good game for DJ, but I like it better when he throws for 170 yards and the Giants win.
And I've made it no secret that I consider the first 2 wins of the season as flukes. Well in my book, losing to a 61 yard walk-off cancels out one of the early flukes.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 24, 2022, 04:48:31 PMDaniel Jones needs to be able to throw over 300 yards and lead a 4th qtr drive with his passing.
Daniel Jones throws over 300 yards and leads a 4th qtr drive with his passing.
Not good enough.
It's funny how that works
https://twitter.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1606771004914688000
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 24, 2022, 04:50:31 PMIt's funny how that works
Well ... when you don't like a certain player - no matter what he does is perceived in a negative light. There are several guys here who will always focus on the negative. You just have to accept their obvious bias.
After Jones is signed to an extension, the negativity will continue. Jones had a great game today - yet the naysayers will point to the one pick (as if other QBs don't throw picks) . They will also point out every missed pass (as if other QBs don't throw errant passes).
It is what it is and it's never going to change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: todge on December 24, 2022, 05:02:07 PMWell ... when you don't like a certain player - no matter what he does is perceived in a negative light. There are several guys here who will always focus on the negative. You just have to accept their obvious bias.
After Jones is signed to an extension, the negativity will continue. Jones had a great game today - yet the naysayers will point to the one pick (as if other QBs don't throw picks) . They will also point out every missed pass (as if other QBs don't throw errant passes).
It is what it is and it's never going to change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He had one of his better games today. That last drive he didn't do a whole lot but he played an ok game overall. Slaytons YAC and Barkley were the biggest factors on the scoring drive. I'll credit DJ for the 2pt though be bought enough time with his legs on that one, and ultimately made the throw. A little high but the result was all that mattered
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 24, 2022, 04:44:11 PMI don't recall seeing that and I am almost certain the announcers didn't mention it (if it was that clear you would think they would have mentioned it.
Im not going to argue with you they were all discussed in the game thread, breida one play, Jame's another, and then on his run he had another guy open. It was talked about at nauseum In the game thread by others, and I wasn't even part of the conversation.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 24, 2022, 04:50:31 PMIt's funny how that works
What are you talking about rich? See thats the problem with you, I gave Jones credit while still admitting he made mistakes but in your eyes he's perfect.. nothing can be said wrong about him. When someone tries to give him credit you take it to the extreme. Guess that's neutral in 2022.
Quote from: todge on December 24, 2022, 05:02:07 PMWell ... when you don't like a certain player - no matter what he does is perceived in a negative light. There are several guys here who will always focus on the negative. You just have to accept their obvious bias.
After Jones is signed to an extension, the negativity will continue. Jones had a great game today - yet the naysayers will point to the one pick (as if other QBs don't throw picks) . They will also point out every missed pass (as if other QBs don't throw errant passes).
It is what it is and it's never going to change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lol coming from a guy that tells fairy tales.
I'd love to hear how that 2 point conversion was high? Lol
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 24, 2022, 05:39:32 PMIm not going to argue with you they were all discussed in the game thread, breida one play, Jame's another, and then on his run he had another guy open. It was talked about at nauseum In the game thread by others, and I wasn't even part of the conversation.
I don't read the game threads anymore.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 24, 2022, 05:55:48 PMI don't read the game threads anymore.
Then maybe don't jump to conclusions on what is said or not said. Several of us gave the guy some credit. Even if we have critiques on some parts of the game we still acknowledged his play today was pretty good. If that ruffles any feathers then it's just nitpicking or ignorance.
Game thread was an abomination.
Honestly, at this stage of the season, I do believe that Daniel Jones deserves, and at least a two year extension
Quote from: AP44 on December 24, 2022, 06:06:51 PMGame thread was an abomination.
It's been that way for some time; it's why I stopped reading them
I'm actually getting some amusement from this thread; the posters who lectured us that it's not important to be right, have rushed here to tell us they're right. It happens every time DJ has a good game, which he enjoyed today. Still, a little perspective is always good. Yes, DJ WR are bottom 10 and yes DJ enjoyed the game against the NFLs #31st ranked passing def, both are relevant. In total, I think his 58 QBR and 93 RTG accurately reflect his effort today.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 24, 2022, 06:11:20 PMI'm actually getting some amusement from this thread; the posters who lectured us that it's not important to be right, have rushed here to tell us they're right. It happens every time DJ has a good game, which he enjoyed today. Still, a little perspective is always good. Yes, DJ WR are bottom 10 and yes DJ enjoyed the game against the NFLs #31st ranked passing def, both are relevant. In total, I think his 58 QBR and 93 RTG accurately reflect his effort today.
Bottom 10?......... it might be fair to see the bottom of the entire NFL. Would you be as kind to name the other nine teams that are in the bottom 10 with the Giants?
Quote from: kingm56 on December 24, 2022, 06:11:20 PMI'm actually getting some amusement from this thread; the posters who lectured us that it's not important to be right, have rushed here to tell us they're right.
Facts matter and your claim is factually incorrect. Literally, no one said they were right.
Quote from: AP44 on December 24, 2022, 06:06:51 PMGame thread was an abomination.
I tend to let things go in the game day thread when I'm there as I know emotions run high.
The easiest thing to do is to ignore posts you don't agree with but instead, most of you want to snipe back. Not every statement deserves a response. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 24, 2022, 06:24:17 PMSays the guy saying ones claim is "factually incorrect" what a joke lmfao 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Even if you believe that, the fact you feel the need to reply like that proves his point
So you decide to join in the fray. That's how we make this community better?
Quote from: brownelvis54 on December 24, 2022, 06:14:55 PMBottom 10?......... it might be fair to see the bottom of the entire NFL. Would you be as kind to name the other nine teams that are in the bottom 10 with the Giants?
I have already entertained this exercise, which I have quantified with subjective and objective data. It just gets ignored for ones narrative. I am not doing this again. What's clear to me is a lot of posters don't pay attention to the rest of the league, at least not in-depth. Instead of a one to end list, I'll give you list of teams that are in the Giants tierl
Chi (probably the worse...they lost Monney weeks ago)
Hou...they have 30 year old Cooks, that's it
Balt...they were terrible to begin with, but have lost thier top 2 mediocre WRs during the year...worse than the Giants
Atl...worse than the Giants as they haven't had Ridley at all.
Tenn...worse than the Giants...they don't even have a Slayton
GB...equal to the Giants as both only have one WR with 750+ yards/year. Watkins has already been released and Lazard has proven a dud.
NO... worse than the Giants, Thomas and Landry are on IR; the former never really played, leaving TRE'QUAN SMITH, RASHID SHAHEED, and CHRIS OLAVE
NE...no real pop; Parker is a shell of himself...
Do I need to keep going, or is this enough?
Devontae just made an incredible catch for minshew .... He was about a foot in the air with two defenders on him
Quote from: killarich on December 24, 2022, 07:25:56 PMDevontae just made an incredible catch for minshew .... He was about a foot in the air with two defenders on him at
It was a great catch! However, we also learned that you can't simply plug a quarterback into the Philly O, and expect the same results. Uncle Rico played ok; however, if Hurts plays, Phili wins.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 24, 2022, 07:49:13 PMIt was a great catch! However, we also learned that you can't simply plug a quarterback into the Philly O, and expect the same results. Uncle Rico played ok; however, if Hurts plays, Phili wins.
The drop off in my opinion was minimal!
To my eyes Mustache Man just showed the NFL that Hurtz isn't as great as ppl think, the team around him makes him who he is.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 24, 2022, 04:48:31 PMDaniel Jones needs to be able to throw over 300 yards and lead a 4th qtr drive with his passing.
Daniel Jones throws over 300 yards and leads a 4th qtr drive with his passing.
Not good enough.
Good game for DJ, but I like it better when he throws for 170 yards and the Giants win.
And I've made it no secret that I consider the first 2 wins of the season as flukes. Well in my book, losing to a 61 yard walk-off cancels out one of the early flukes.
Think it shows that Jones is an excellent game manager but in a shootout isn't going to win you games.
Quote from: todge on December 24, 2022, 05:02:07 PMWell ... when you don't like a certain player - no matter what he does is perceived in a negative light. There are several guys here who will always focus on the negative. You just have to accept their obvious bias.
After Jones is signed to an extension, the negativity will continue. Jones had a great game today - yet the naysayers will point to the one pick (as if other QBs don't throw picks) . They will also point out every missed pass (as if other QBs don't throw errant passes).
It is what it is and it's never going to change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And this is why you don't get respect Ted. When you come out in personal attack mode like this then get bent out of shape then cry to the moderators like you're a victim.
We all have our biases like any human. You are no different.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 10:13:00 PMThe drop off in my opinion was minimal!
To my eyes Mustache Man just showed the NFL that Hurtz isn't as great as ppl think, the team around him makes him who he is.
Completely disagree, his 2 ints were the reason they lost. In the first game, hurts didn't turn over the ball and threw two TDs. The eagles are going to give Hurts a top 10 contract.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 24, 2022, 11:03:44 PMCompletely disagree, his 2 ints were the reason they lost. In the first game, hurts didn't turn over the ball and threw two TDs. The eagles are going to give Hurts a top 10 contract.
I hope they do! Less money to pay everyone else.
You can disagree. But even with 2 picks Eagles nearly win! The drop off isn't much.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 11:08:31 PMI hope they do! Less money to pay everyone else.
You can disagree. But even with 2 picks Eagles nearly win! The drop off isn't much.
But they didn't win; they only lost 1 of 14 games with Hurst and made the playoffs solely because of him last year. Uncle Rico doesn't lead Phili to the playoffs last year...no way. Hurts is a 2x Pro Bowler and will be an AP and MVP candidate this season. To suggest there wasn't, or won't be any drop off is mind blowing, especially when you consider Minshew has already thrown for 40% of Hurts picks and equaled 100% of his loses in just one game. You don't win many games when your QB has mult turnovers. In short, with Hurts, phili is the best team in football, without him, they're not. They just proved that tonight.
https://twitter.com/JimNagy_SB/status/1606756519038668801
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 11:08:31 PMI hope they do! Less money to pay everyone else.
You can disagree. But even with 2 picks Eagles nearly win! The drop off isn't much.
Personally I don't think there is a drop off.
Given the expectation that the Jets are supposedly going to move on from Wilson, I wonder if they will be one of the team's that goes after DJ?
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 09:34:35 AMGiven the expectation that the Jets are supposedly going to move on from Wilson, I wonder if they will be one of the team's that goes after DJ?
I mentioned this in another post!
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 09:34:35 AMGiven the expectation that the Jets are supposedly going to move on from Wilson, I wonder if they will be one of the team's that goes after DJ?
Nah I think the Jets go with Mike White who is popular among his teammates along with some other veteran. I think Washington, Tampa and New Orleans could be teams that go after Jones.
I though Jones was fantastic yesterday outside of a rare interception. I was watching the game with my dad who was a big Jones critic and we both expect him to be resigned.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 25, 2022, 08:42:39 AMPersonally I don't think there is a drop off.
We know Hurts is a much better athlete and runner than Minshew, so to say Minshew is equal is to say he's a significantly better passer.
I like Minshew a lot and think he's better than some starters in this league, and I admit that up until this season I wasn't very high on Hurts, but I don't think I'm comfortable saying Minshew is a distinctly better passer than Hurts. Minshew is very efficient and accurate, but his arm is pretty weak.
Overall I would say that the gap probably isn't as big as many think, but I personally would not agree that there is zero drop-off. And I say that coming from a place where I have always liked Minshew and think he's a solid QB.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 25, 2022, 10:34:31 AMWe know Hurts is a much better athlete and runner than Minshew, so to say Minshew is equal is to say he's a significantly better passer.
I like Minshew a lot and think he's better than some starters in this league, and I admit that up until this season I wasn't very high on Hurts, but I don't think I'm comfortable saying Minshew is a distinctly better passer than Hurts. Minshew is very efficient and accurate, but his arm is pretty weak.
Overall I would say that the gap probably isn't as big as many think, but I personally would not agree that there is zero drop-off. And I say that coming from a place where I have always liked Minshew and think he's a solid QB.
Look at all the Free Agent Qbs this offseason and the stats they've put up this season. Someone's going to pay White, Brissett, Dalton, Minshew, Geno, Heinecke, and especially Darnold after the last 4 games he's had. All those Qbs have played good football this year.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 25, 2022, 10:29:21 AMI though Jones was fantastic yesterday outside of a rare interception. I was watching the game with my dad who was a big Jones critic and we both expect him to be resigned.
But, it takes 2 to tango and he might not be all that interested in re-signing with a team that hasn't been stable coaching wise and that has failed, in 4 years, to put more than a couple of decent pieces around him. And if he looks back and sees how they essentially wasted half of Eli's career with the same problems . . . I guess it depends on whether he has faith that the new regime can reverse the failures of the last 10 years.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 12:10:17 PMBut, it takes 2 to tango and he might not be all that interested in re-signing with a team that hasn't been stable coaching wise and that has failed, in 4 years, to put more than a couple of decent pieces around him. And if he looks back and sees how they essentially wasted half of Eli's career with the same problems . . . I guess it depends on whether he has faith that the new regime can reverse the failures of the last 10 years.
I have no doubt that Jones will want to resign with the stable coaching staff he has now.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 25, 2022, 12:42:15 PMI have no doubt that Jones will want to resign with the stable coaching staff he has now.
Time will tell.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 12:10:17 PMBut, it takes 2 to tango and he might not be all that interested in re-signing with a team that hasn't been stable coaching wise and that has failed, in 4 years, to put more than a couple of decent pieces around him. And if he looks back and sees how they essentially wasted half of Eli's career with the same problems . . . I guess it depends on whether he has faith that the new regime can reverse the failures of the last 10 years.
If Jones feels that way let him walk. While the Giants didn't provide him the perfect situation Jones didn't do everything he could to elevate those around him.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 25, 2022, 12:56:01 PMIf Jones feels that way let him walk. While the Giants didn't provide him the perfect situation Jones didn't do everything he could to elevate those around him.
There is a vast gulf between a "perfect" situation and the garbage they saddled him with, up to and including this year, although the coaching HAS improved this year. But the offensive roster hasn't.
Hey all- I've just popped into this long-ass thread to say I think Daniel Jones is a bonafide franchise QB. He's not a top 5 or maybe even top 10 QB and may never be one- kinda like another franchise QB we all grew to know and love.
I believe some of you DJ detractors need to think through the differences between a franchise QB and an elite/MVP level QB. They're two different things. It's clear to me now that we can win a lot of games with DJ under center. He's got the work ethic, the demeanor, and the skills to be a successful QB for a very long time.
I feel 100% sure the Giants front office sees the same thing and we'll hopefully shift gears now to make sure he's got the best team around him to continue maximizing the team's overall play.
Just wanted to go on record and I guess this is the only place to talk about him anymore =)) =)) =))
I think it is fair to say that there is no precise, widely-agreed upon definition of "franchise QB." Everyone has their own take on the phrase, which is fine. It's not a phrase with a precise definition.
To me, and this is just my personal opinion, I think it's hard to firmly declare any QB a "franchise QB" if he's not clearly top 10. If you start extending it beyond the top 10, you're getting to a point where you're close to saying that half or nearly half of the league's starters are "franchise QBs." I don't personally feel that way myself. I think the "franchise QB" label has a more exclusive scope than that. I think 10 is probably the most. Again, this is my personal opinion of the definition of the phrase, and I'm not saying those who disagree are wrong.
I do not see Jones as a top 10 QB this year, and I don't think many objective people do. I have felt and said for a while now that he is a middle of the road starter, which is hardly an insult or even being a "detractor." If someone says you're the 14th-17th best QB in the world, that's not exactly an insult in my book. But to me that's not a "franchise QB."
In Today NFL I think you need an elite QB on a rookie deal and a solid team to compete for super bowls. The importance of the rookie deal for the Qb is to allow you to build properly while the Qb grows.
I juat haven't seen any team thrive resigning a top 12-20 QB at a premium. It hasn't worked out in any capacity for the team that signed the QB. So is Jones supposed to be the exception to the rule? I'm all for us signing him for a year maybe two, but anything beyond that cripples the front office to actually build a proper team.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on December 25, 2022, 01:27:31 PMHey all- I've just popped into this long-ass thread to say I think Daniel Jones is a bonafide franchise QB. He's not a top 5 or maybe even top 10 QB and may never be one- kinda like another franchise QB we all grew to know and love.
I believe some of you DJ detractors need to think through the differences between a franchise QB and an elite/MVP level QB. They're two different things. It's clear to me now that we can win a lot of games with DJ under center. He's got the work ethic, the demeanor, and the skills to be a successful QB for a very long time.
I feel 100% sure the Giants front office sees the same thing and we'll hopefully shift gears now to make sure he's got the best team around him to continue maximizing the team's overall play.
Just wanted to go on record and I guess this is the only place to talk about him anymore =)) =)) =))
Yup...dont dare make a thread that has anything to do with Jones. =))
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 25, 2022, 01:43:35 PMI think it is fair to say that there is no precise, widely-agreed upon definition of "franchise QB." Everyone has their own take on the phrase, which is fine. It's not a phrase with a precise definition.
To me, and this is just my personal opinion, I think it's hard to firmly declare any QB a "franchise QB" if he's not clearly top 10. If you start extending it beyond the top 10, you're getting to a point where you're close to saying that half or nearly half of the league's starters are "franchise QBs." I don't personally feel that way myself. I think the "franchise QB" label has a more exclusive scope than that. I think 10 is probably the most. Again, this is my personal opinion of the definition of the phrase, and I'm not saying those who disagree are wrong.
I do not see Jones as a top 10 QB this year, and I don't think many objective people do. I have felt and said for a while now that he is a middle of the road starter, which is hardly an insult or even being a "detractor." If someone says you're the 14th-17th best QB in the world, that's not exactly an insult in my book. But to me that's not a "franchise QB."
Yeah, these terms are horribly imprecise. To me a franchise QB is a guy whose team doesn't think of replacing him. Eli was rarely in the top ten of QBs but the Giants never thought seriously of replacing him until the end. And, IMO he was elite for 2 playoff runs and the 2011 season. But he was clearly a franchise QB, IMO.
The conundrum with DJ is that he is ranked 17 playing on an offense that is far below 17th. And some blame him for not elevating the other players. An elite QB can elevate a good offense to very good, and an average offense to a good offense, but I don't think the QB has been born who can elevate a bad offense to a very good offense. I think DJ has elevated a bad offense to a slightly below offense. And the question is, what could he elevate an average or good offense to. And how would playing on such offenses change his ranking, because rankings are dynamic, not static. He wouldn't be Mahomes in the KC offense, but I doubt he'd rank 17th.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 01:23:39 PMThere is a vast gulf between a "perfect" situation and the garbage they saddled him with, up to and including this year, although the coaching HAS improved this year. But the offensive roster hasn't.
How many QBs in the league have a threat at RB like Jones does with Barkley?
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 02:43:58 PMYeah, these terms are horribly imprecise. To me a franchise QB is a guy whose team doesn't think of replacing him. Eli was rarely in the top ten of QBs but the Giants never thought seriously of replacing him until the end. And, IMO he was elite for 2 playoff runs and the 2011 season. But he was clearly a franchise QB, IMO.
The conundrum with DJ is that he is ranked 17 playing on an offense that is far below 17th. And some blame him for not elevating the other players. An elite QB can elevate a good offense to very good, and an average offense to a good offense, but I don't think the QB has been born who can elevate a bad offense to a very good offense. I think DJ has elevated a bad offense to a slightly below offense. And the question is, what could he elevate an average or good offense to. And how would playing on such offenses change his ranking, because rankings are dynamic, not static. He wouldn't be Mahomes in the KC offense, but I doubt he'd rank 17th.
Where would you rate the offense in 2019? The Barkley, Tete, Shep, Slayton, EE Offense with a line that was ranked like 19th. Do you think the production his rookie year is his ceiling, minus the fumbles, or could be his average yearly production with a stabilized offense?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 25, 2022, 02:57:45 PMWhere would you rate the offense in 2019? The Barkley, Tete, Shep, Slayton, EE Offense with a line that was ranked like 19th. Do you think the production his rookie year is his ceiling, minus the fumbles, or could be his average yearly production with a stabilized offense?
The ranking of the 2019 offense is right about the same as this one.
2019: pts per game 18 - yards per game 23
2022: pts per game 20 - yards per game 20
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 03:11:33 PMThe ranking of the 2019 offense is right about the same as this one.
2019: pts per game 18 - yards per game 23
2022: pts per game 20 - yards per game 20
I agree they're similar, even though I believe 2019 had better weapons, I think this staff is better.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 25, 2022, 03:15:05 PMI agree they're similar, even though I believe 2019 had better weapons, I think this staff is better.
I agree the staff is better than 2019, and a lot better than the 2020-2021 staff. But the offensive roster is no better, and probably worse, IMO.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 25, 2022, 03:15:05 PMI agree they're similar, even though I believe 2019 had better weapons, I think this staff is better.
The key factor should be obvious...it's a healthy Barkley
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 25, 2022, 02:43:58 PMYeah, these terms are horribly imprecise. To me a franchise QB is a guy whose team doesn't think of replacing him. Eli was rarely in the top ten of QBs but the Giants never thought seriously of replacing him until the end. And, IMO he was elite for 2 playoff runs and the 2011 season. But he was clearly a franchise QB, IMO.
Eli was consistently in the Top 10 in TD's for the prime of his career.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 25, 2022, 04:59:12 PMEli was consistently in the Top 10 in TD's for the prime of his career.
Yeah, I'm not sure what stats Rich Is referring to as Eli routinely finished in the top 10 of several statistical categories during his prime: 2005 to 2012. As you accurately pointed out, he was #2 in TDs his sophomore season. He finished his career in the top 10 of several statistical categories.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 24, 2022, 10:34:14 PMThink it shows that Jones is an excellent game manager but in a shootout isn't going to win you games.
And this is why you don't get respect Ted. When you come out in personal attack mode like this then get bent out of shape then cry to the moderators like you're a victim.
We all have our biases like any human. You are no different.
I've been on this Board and it's predecessor for over 25 years. I could care less about respect from people that don't agree with me. We needed a DJ thread because constant negativity on the same topic can bring an entire Board down.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Daniel Jones is a top 12 QB in the NFL
He is not what is keeping us from a trophy
Too many dropped and unsecured balls Saturday.
Hopefully, we help Jeff Saturday secure a better draft position on Sunday and slip into the dance with a practice game to spare
Actually, it would be nice to defeat the Eagles with our subs. I hope TT lights it up for 40
Quote from: BluesCruz on December 26, 2022, 05:58:50 AMDaniel Jones is a top 12 QB in the NFL
May I ask what measure(s) you are basing this on?
Quote from: todge on December 25, 2022, 09:50:17 PMI've been on this Board and it's predecessor for over 25 years. I could care less about respect from people that don't agree with me. We needed a DJ thread because constant negativity on the same topic can bring an entire Board down.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You care about it enough to complain to the moderators about it.
Quote from: BluesCruz on December 26, 2022, 05:58:50 AMDaniel Jones is a top 12 QB in the NFL
He is not what is keeping us from a trophy
Too many dropped and unsecured balls Saturday.
Hopefully, we help Jeff Saturday secure a better draft position on Sunday and slip into the dance with a practice game to spare
Actually, it would be nice to defeat the Eagles with our subs. I hope TT lights it up for 40
The Giants passing offense and rushing defense are near the bottom of the league. Those are their two weaknesses keeping the Giants from being an elite team.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 07:11:14 AMThe Giants passing offense and rushing defense are near the bottom of the league. Those are their two weaknesses keeping the Giants from being an elite team.
I agree, and those are pretty significant weaknesses, especially the first one given this is a passing league.
The organization has already made very impressive strides since the end of the horrific Gettleman era, but we still have a ways to go with this roster. The nice thing is that this time Schoen will go into the offseason with some cash in his pocket, unlike last year when they were basically broke (cap-wise).
One observation - DJ is not working with the best group of receivers. However, this may be the longest stretch of working with the same receivers.
https://twitter.com/talkingiants/status/1607383498884583430
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 26, 2022, 09:33:07 AMhttps://twitter.com/talkingiants/status/1607383498884583430
While it's never a bad thing to enjoy your personal best at something, I'm not sure that this particular number is one to write home about for a fourth year QB whom many are trying to argue is a franchise QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 26, 2022, 09:33:07 AMhttps://twitter.com/talkingiants/status/1607383498884583430
That's nice but he only started 12 games in 2019. He needed 15 starts this season to pass his own best.
This is not a knock, just a fact.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 26, 2022, 09:51:27 AMWhile it's never a bad thing to enjoy your personal best at something, I'm not sure that this particular number is one to write home about for a fourth year QB whom many are trying to argue is a franchise QB.
And less than 4,000 yards in a 17 game season isn't exactly performing at a highly productive level for someone who is looking to get paid after the season.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 10:07:53 AMAnd less than 4,000 yards in a 17 game season isn't exactly performing at a highly productive level for someone who is looking to get paid after the season.
And he may be performing to what the expectations of this new administration was or even better considering the supporting cast.
Bill
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 07:08:59 AMYou care about it enough to complain to the moderators about it.
Why waste the time to post this and further the animosity on this board? You know better.
Quote from: ps11yat14 on December 26, 2022, 10:27:20 AMAnd he may be performing to what the expectations of this new administration was or even better considering the supporting cast.
Bill
It's year 4. He's had multiple Head Coaches, Coordinators and players around him. At some point it needs to be about him.
He had a good game this week. Credit is given. If he can play like this more consistently, I'd be on board bringing him back as a bridge for a year or two but not a long term thing.
After 4 years, with some of the same WRs that he should have chemistry with, and the best OL he has had, I would expect games like this a bit more often.
At the end of the day we are 20th in the league in points per game at 20.7, and have never been more than 18th with him which was in his rookie year. We should be at least in the top 9-12 range at minimum if we want to compete. All the stats and metrics supporting both sides of the argument (to keep or not to keep) are nice, but at the end of the day we need to put points on the board consistently.
But who knows, maybe another year of building the roster along with a new turf and players returning on both sides of the ball get us there.
As much as we see Mahomes, Brady, and other franchise guys win each year, we occasionally get a Flacco, Foles, or Dilfer that sneak one in on occasion, could DJ be that? I'm not sure, I don't think so. But maybe Daboll believes he can get more out of him. I don't see it but if he resigns here I hope they do. After 4 years he just has too many things to work on in my opinion. At some point you simply are what you are.
https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1607424281402540034
https://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1607418439101972481
If I may interject a few thoughts.
Daboll and Kafka had DJ throw the ball 42 times against the Vikings, and 30 times against the Jaguars.
Why?
Because the Vikings have the 32nd ranked passing defense, and the Jaguars the 28th.
Daboll and Kafka are going to attack a teams weakness, this means they may run it 50 times a game, or throw it 40 times, depending on the opponent.
Daboll has mentioned this multiple times, during his media sessions.
One of the criteria that JS has said for the QB position is can he come through in the "Gotta have it moments".
The Giants were down by 8, with about 4 minutes left in the game. DJ drove them down the field and scored a TD, and also came through with a 2 point conversion.
I personally was looking to see if he could come through in a "Gotta have it moment" when the pressure was on and he did.
Two more games to go, let's see what happens
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 26, 2022, 12:59:14 PMAfter 4 years, with some of the same WRs that he should have chemistry with, and the best OL he has had, I would expect games like this a bit more often.
The only receivers who were even on the team last year are Barkley and Slayton. And that "best OL he has had" has given up 3.1 sacks per game compared to last year's 2.2 sacks per game. So I reject the premise.
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/ol-power-rankings-2022/
Quote from: sxdxca38 on December 26, 2022, 01:48:32 PMIf I may interject a few thoughts.
Daboll and Kafka had DJ throw the ball 42 times against the Vikings, and 30 times against the Jaguars.
Why?
Because the Vikings have the 32nd ranked passing defense, and the Jaguars the 28th.
Daboll and Kafka are going to attack a teams weakness, this means they may run it 50 times a game, or throw it 40 times, depending on the opponent.
Daboll has mentioned this multiple times, during his media sessions.
One of the criteria that JS has said for the QB position is can he come through in the "Gotta have it moments".
The Giants were down by 8, with about 4 minutes left in the game. DJ drove them down the field and scored a TD, and also came through with a 2 point conversion.
I personally was looking to see if he could come through in a "Gotta have it moment" when the pressure was on and he did.
Two more games to go, let's see what happens
Daboll and Kafka like Jones on a schedule. When we win he typically throws it for 27-30 times for a 180 yards and 0-1 Tds. It's when he's asked to throw more than that is when we lose typically. Because him throwing less means the ground game is working and if the ground game isn't working we typically lose.
I know a lot of people talk about raw stats in terms of evaluating Jones. However, I remember Schoen laid out his criteria in an interview some time back. I had a hard time finding this, but I finally did. I remember that Joe Schoen laid out his vision for a franchise QB. I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that Daniel Jones has checked the boxes that Schoen was looking for.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2022, 07:57:04 AMI was listening to me 5th interview with Joe Schoen. You wouldn't think I would learn something new (at least of value), but in this interview, he was asked what his vision is of a franchise QB. On a side note, this seemed to be JS simply laid out that they are halfway through the evaluation process with Jones and he would not commit that Jones will be back next season. Still, to me the real value was Joe describing his franchise QB because that certainly would help in terms of seeing Jones' perform and how JS would judge that performance
Joe Schoen's franchise QB
1) When everyone in the building knows you are going to throw it, can you throw it
2) Do you have confidence in him to go down the field and get points at the end of the half (or the end of the game)
3) can you adlib? Can you make plays when things aren't perfect
4) Off the field- leadership, personality, and approach to your profession (JS said Jones checks a lot of these boxes)
If you want to hear his comments on Jones (I think this was the clearest Joe has been in terms of Jones), it starts around the 7:30 mark.
https://omny.fm/shows/the-zach-gelb-show/joe-schoen-new-york-giants-general-manager-1
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 26, 2022, 03:38:23 PMDaboll and Kafka like Jones on a schedule. When we win he typically throws it for 27-30 times for a 180 yards and 0-1 Tds. It's when he's asked to throw more than that is when we lose typically. Because him throwing less means the ground game is working and if the ground game isn't working we typically lose.
Normally I'd agree with you but Barkley was averaging 6.0 yards per carry last game, which means the ground game was working, yet they only ran it 14 times.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 26, 2022, 04:06:49 PMNo disrespect taken at all. I appreciate the discussion and all of the points you are making.
I agree with you in spirit about not being willing to ignore data, but I do not think that just looking at sack numbers by themselves tells you all you need to know about how a line is doing in pass pro. If that were the case, then we would also be ignoring the data about how long Jones holds the ball. We would also be ignoring the fact that Jones is playing in a new scheme that may result in more sacks, as a price to pay for a benefit seen elsewhere. As a possible example of said benefit, Jones' INT rate is down significantly year-on-year. Could it be possible that Daboll and co have instructed him to try to avoid turnovers at all costs, even if it means taking more sacks? Do you know for sure that that is not the case?
To be clear, I am not saying I am definitely right and you are definitely wrong. I just don't think evaluating an O line's pass pro is as cut and dry down to sack rate as you do.
I did look at time to throw when folks were throwing 5 seconds around. And saw that his time
in the pocket was more like 2.5 seconds and the 5 seconds was due to how often he was running for his life.
Obviously I don't 'know for sure' what he is being coached to do, - none of us do - but I think if Daboll was coaching him to avoid turnovers he would emphasize throwing the ball away, rather than taking sacks. But that's just a surmise.
IAC that is all speculation, while the 40% increase in sacks is a hard number. And I'm an empirical guy.
I think Thomas is an excellent tackle but besides him I don't see anyone on our OL who is above average or, in most cases, even average when to comes to pass pro. Neal has so far been a disappointment in that regard, particularly since his pass pro was supposed to be his strength, but he's just a rookie and can (hopefully) improve. But the interior line is still a mess.
I'm copying this whole post and pasting it as a reply in the DJ thread to honor the mods wishes, plus it is a little off the topic of the thread
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 12:16:44 PMIt's year 4. He's had multiple Head Coaches, Coordinators and players around him. At some point it needs to be about him.
For some context, the Giants have 6 games with NFC East teams all of which are in the top 10 in pass defense and with stud pass rushers.
Throw in the Packers at #3, the Bears at #12 and the Texans at #13. Thats 8 games against the top half of the NFL versus stout pass defenses. Make it 9 games with the game this week vs the Colts who is ranked #10 in pass defense and #11 in team sacks. That's not too shabby considering we've only started to open up the passing game 2 weeks ago against Washington.
https://youtu.be/2hRZ30wF0Ss
Even Tynes went out on a limb and argued that DJ was the better QB on the field that game. Give DJ Jefferson and he would have passed for 400 yards easy that game against the Vikings. He showed command of the offense, decisive, made/extended plays with his legs and took some shots down the field. His one glaring mistake was throwing the ball behind Hodgins which led to the pick. But that's where with better talent like a shifter WR like Wan'Dale would create separation or even Slayton who is faster would leave and aging Peterson in the dust.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 07:47:05 PMFor some context, the Giants have 6 games with NFC East teams all of which are in the top 10 in pass defense and with stud pass rushers.
Throw in the Packers at #3, the Bears at #12 and the Texans at #13. Thats 8 games against the top half of the NFL versus stout pass defenses. Make it 9 games with the game this week vs the Colts who is ranked #10 in pass defense and #11 in team sacks. That's not too shabby considering we've only started to open up the passing game 2 weeks ago against Washington.
https://youtu.be/2hRZ30wF0Ss
Even Tynes went out on a limb and argued that DJ was the better QB on the field that game. Give DJ Jefferson and he would have passed for 400 yards easy that game against the Vikings. He showed command of the offense, decisive, made/extended plays with his legs and took some shots down the field. His one glaring mistake was throwing the ball behind Hodgins which led to the pick. But that's where with better talent like a shifter WR like Wan'Dale would create separation or even Slayton who is faster would leave and aging Peterson in the dust.
Kirk Cousins had a 4,000+ yard 70 comp % 29 TD 2015 season with no 1,000 yard receiver.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:02:36 PMKirk Cousins had a 4,000+ yard 70 comp % 29 TD 2015 season with no 1,000 yard receiver.
Trent Williams - LT
Alfred Morris - RB (made his second pro bowl albeit as a replacement to McCoy)
Garcon, Crowder and DJax - WRs
Jordan Reed - TE was 48 yards shy of 1K yards receiving (eventually made the Pro Bowl in 2016)
Most importantly their OC was Sean McVay
If you compare that with DJ. The talent level at WR and TE is still not comparable to what we have now. Two of whom were pick ups from Practice Squads of other teams.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 26, 2022, 07:04:01 PMI did look at time to throw when folks were throwing 5 seconds around. And saw that his time in the pocket was more like 2.5 seconds and the 5 seconds was due to how often he was running for his life.
Obviously I don't 'know for sure' what he is being coached to do, - none of us do - but I think if Daboll was coaching him to avoid turnovers he would emphasize throwing the ball away, rather than taking sacks. But that's just a surmise.
IAC that is all speculation, while the 40% increase in sacks is a hard number. And I'm an empirical guy.
I think Thomas is an excellent tackle but besides him I don't see anyone on our OL who is above average or, in most cases, even average when to comes to pass pro. Neal has so far been a disappointment in that regard, particularly since his pass pro was supposed to be his strength, but he's just a rookie and can (hopefully) improve. But the interior line is still a mess.
I'm copying this whole post and pasting it as a reply in the DJ thread to honor the mods wishes, plus it is a little off the topic of the thread
I've been keeping up with the next Gen stats all season and he's been right at 2.9 or right over 3.0 all season which for the most part was 30th or worse in the NFL. Recently he's done better and because of such he sits around 2.92 which probably 20th maybe 23rd. What it hasn't been is 5 seconds ever this season to my knowledge if that helps in your discussion.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 08:18:27 PMTrent Williams - LT
Alfred Morris - RB (made his second pro bowl albeit as a replacement to McCoy)
Garcon, Crowder and DJax - WRs
Jordan Reed - TE was 48 yards shy of 1K yards receiving (eventually made the Pro Bowl in 2016.
Most importantly their OC was Sean McVay
If you compared that with DJ. The talent level at WR and TE is still not comparable to what we have now. Two of whom were pick ups from Practice Squads of other teams.
Lol how is that any different than Andrew Thomas at Left Tackle and a possible 2nd/1st Team all Pro in Barkley with Daboll as HC and Kafka as OC?
Bottom line is Cousins never had to have a team prop him up to put up productive seasons. He was highly productive long before Diggs and Jefferson.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 08:33:07 PMYes but Cousins being drafted in the same as RG3 had the luxury to sit behind him and develop. That's 3 years in the same system, with relatively the same coaches to groom him and develop.
Daniel maybe year 4 in his career but playing for his 3 HC under 3 different systems with 4 different OCs in his ear.
There's always excuses for Jones. At what point do they go away? When things are perfect around him?
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:34:26 PMThere's always excuses for Jones. At what point do they go away? When things are perfect around him?
Since we're comparing Jones with Cousins and are expecting the same stats we also have to take some things into consideration.
We can even argue Cousins had the luxury of sitting out 2 years. Half a season in his third year and full time starter in his fourth year. With McVay calling his plays. I'd argue you can't ask for a better situation than that.
He'll even Zach Wilson can benefit from having that kind of time to sit out and learn and have an good offensive mind teaching him. The Jets didn't have that and after just 2 seasons he will be likely playing for another if ever will be given the chance to do so.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 08:49:50 PMSince we're comparing Jones with Cousins and are expecting the same stats we also have to take some things into consideration.
We can even argue Cousins had the luxury of sitting out 2 years. Half a season in his third year and full time starter in his fourth year. With McVay calling his plays. I'd argue you can't ask for a better situation than that.
He'll even Zach Wilson can benefit from having that kind of time to sit out and learn and have an good offensive mind teaching him. The Jets didn't have that and after just 2 seasons he will be likely playing for another if ever will be given the chance to do so.
Playing is the best type of experience to learn from. Yet in Cousin's 4th season (first starting) he put up numbers that Jones hasn't even approached. Talent around them is not the difference between them. Cousins is and has been the better QB.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:54:29 PMPlaying is the best type of experience to learn from. Yet in Cousin's 4th season (first starting) he put up numbers that Jones hasn't even approached. Talent around them is not the difference between them. Cousins is and has been the better QB.
Yes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop. He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.
Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better. Put better skill position WRs around him and see how it with dynamically change our pass game.
Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins. Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.
We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league. I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 09:02:36 PMYes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop. He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.
Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better. Put better skill position WRs around him and how it with dynamically change our pass game.
Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins. Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.
We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league. I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.
That's the problem though, no QB has ever started 4 years, had the same basic stats 4 years straight and then progressed after that 4th year into something more than he was already. It's never happened to my knowledge and if I remember correctly from talking with
@kingm56 about the subject. So then you would be hoping Jones was a statical anamoly and took a leap in year 5 that didn't transpire at any time in the first four seasons. One or two games a season isn't flashing, that's probably luck. No coincidence his best two games this season are against 2 of the worst passing defenses in Jacksonville and Minnesota.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 26, 2022, 09:11:07 PMThat's the problem though, no QB has ever started 4 years, had the same basic stats 4 years straight and then progressed after that 4th year into something more than he was already. It's never happened to my knowledge and if I remember correctly from talking with @kingm56 about the subject. So then you would be hoping Jones was a statical anamoly and took a leap in year 5 that didn't transpire at any time in the first four seasons. One or two games a season isn't flashing, that's probably luck. No coincidence his best two games this season are against 2 of the worst passing defenses in Jacksonville and Minnesota.
My reasoning being that we just started to open up the pass game more instead of leaning heavily on the run & playaction. More favorable statistically for QBs.
Also were running our pass offense with less ideal talent on the WR core. Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air but his speed will not put the fear in any defense. Slayton has speed but has been consistently inconsistent catching the ball on tight windows or the DB playing more press on him. With better skill position players to execute the scheme its something to look forward to.
I can be wrong here but that's what I'm basing it on. And that's what Tynes was alluding to that in that segment by the NY Post.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 09:02:36 PMYes Cousins may be the better QB now, but going forward I like where DJ can continue to progress and develop. He's been playing efficient offense and not necessarily QB stat friendly offense but that's what he's been asked to do.
Now that we started opening up the pass offense, DJ can only continue to get better. Put better skill position WRs around him and see how it with dynamically change our pass game.
Not to mention DJ has the running ability unlike Cousins. Those deeper routes vs man to man with the DBs backed turned and DJ can pick up yards with his legs.
We've seen Cousins ceiling right now with the best WR in the league. I'd go out on a limb that going forward DJ has a higher ceiling than Cousins if he continues in his development.
Difference between the two in their careers will be that Cousins put up good numbers with little to work with in Washington. When Cousins got weapons in Minnesota his production increased but not drastically.
As far as the Giants offense opening up I wouldn't expect last week's offense to be used this week or again this season unless they play Minnesota in the playoffs.
They handicapped the offense to this point because of the Qb. Jones' numbers are on par with Allen's end of his 1st year and 2nd year. They didn't fully trust him at that point and it led to them throwing less. Allen attempted 461 passes his sophomore campaign and Jones is on track for that with similar overall production.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 09:29:06 PMDifference between the two in their careers will be that Cousins put up good numbers with little to work with in Washington. When Cousins got weapons in Minnesota his production increased but not drastically.
As far as the Giants offense opening up I wouldn't expect last week's offense to be used this week or again this season unless they play Minnesota in the playoffs.
They ran it vs the Commanders the previous week as well. Let's see of the trend continues or they pivot back to the run/play action.
One side is keep running it and get more reps to continue to develop the chemistry with DJ and the WRs. Since going forward and even into the plays offs all teams possibly going in are in the top 10 in pass defense.
The counter argument is that going back to the run/play action puts less tape out there for teams to dissect and gameplan against.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 09:29:06 PMDifference between the two in their careers will be that Cousins put up good numbers with little to work with in Washington. When Cousins got weapons in Minnesota his production increased but not drastically.
As far as the Giants offense opening up I wouldn't expect last week's offense to be used this week or again this season unless they play Minnesota in the playoffs.
I wouldn't call Morris (Pro Bowl RB), DJax (Pro Bowl WR), Garcon, Crowder and Reed (Pro Bowl TE) as "little to work with" relative to the situation DJ was placed in. On top of that McVay orchestrating the offense. We've seen what he did with Goff. I would argue that the circumstance Cousins was placed in as a favorable one rather than handicapping what he is capable of.
https://youtu.be/tTfu3EQuDo8
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 09:56:41 PMThey ran it vs the Commanders the previous week as well. Let's see of the trend continues or they pivot back to the run/play action.
One side is keep running it and get more reps to continue to develop the chemistry with DJ and the WRs. Since going forward and even into the plays offs all teams possibly going in are in the top 10 in pass defense.
The counter argument is that going back to the run/play action puts less tape out there for teams to dissect and gameplan against.
It is dependent upon the opponent. Against a team like the Vikings who are not good against the pass the Giants are going to attack them there. But against most teams and where the Giants have been successful this season is when they have focused on their ground game and controlling the clock.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 26, 2022, 10:01:57 PMI wouldn't call Morris (Pro Bowl RB), DJax (Pro Bowl WR), Garcon, Crowder and Reed (Pro Bowl TE) as "little to work with" relative to the situation DJ was placed in. On top of that McVay orchestrating the offense. We've seen what he did with Goff. I would argue that the circumstance Cousins was placed in as a favorable one rather than handicapping what he is capable of.
Morris was not on the same level that Barkley is where Barkley is going to end up being a 2nd or 1st Team All Pro. Jackson only played 9 games for Washington in Cousin's first season so he was not as much of a factor.
And again Jones has Daboll and Kafka as his Head Coach and OC. That's hardly trash. The biggest thing handicapping Jones is himself and his lack of instincts.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 26, 2022, 08:21:10 PMI've been keeping up with the next Gen stats all season and he's been right at 2.9 or right over 3.0 all season which for the most part was 30th or worse in the NFL. Recently he's done better and because of such he sits around 2.92 which probably 20th maybe 23rd. What it hasn't been is 5 seconds ever this season to my knowledge if that helps in your discussion.
Yeah, I know, but that didn't stop some folks from throwing around the 5 seconds number. And please clarify, if you will, is that 2.9 figure time to throw or time in the pocket?
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 12:16:44 PMIt's year 4. He's had multiple Head Coaches, Coordinators and players around him. At some point it needs to be about him.
You say that like it is a positive, whereas this kind or organizational instability is what can stunt a QBs development.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:34:26 PMThere's always excuses for Jones. At what point do they go away? When things are perfect around him?
There are always excuses for the OL. At what point do they go away?
And there, yet again is the hyperbolic 'when things are perfect' canard. No one has said things have to be perfect for him to produce better numbers, we'd just like to see a reasonably competent NFL quality OL and WR corps. No one has said he needs the Eagles OL and the Bengals receiver group.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 09:24:39 AMThere are always excuses for the OL. At what point do they go away?
No one is making excuses for the OL, I don't think anyone has claimed it is anything above average besides Thomas.
It is his best overall OL, but that also is not saying much of anything. But plenty of QBs have played well with equal or worse.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 09:31:57 AMNo one is making excuses for the OL, I don't think anyone has claimed it is anything above average besides Thomas.
It is his best overall OL, but that also is not saying much of anything. But plenty of QBs have played well with equal or worse.
Sure excuses are being made for the OL. I talk about the
forty percent increase in sacks and out come the hand-waving excuses that the pass pro has actually improved.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 09:31:57 AMNo one is making excuses for the OL, I don't think anyone has claimed it is anything above average besides Thomas.
It is his best overall OL, but that also is not saying much of anything. But plenty of QBs have played well with equal or worse.
Really? Really? Those QBs you speak of...do they also have WRs that are at the level we have? I was listening to the announcers on the Dolphin game and they were saying how Hill and Waddle were making Tua better. There was a time in the game Waddle had two catches for 96 yards and Hill three catches for 84 yards. The majority of the yards for both WR were YAC yards. As of now Waddle leads the NFL with an average of 18 yards after the catch
Quote from: brownelvis54 on December 27, 2022, 09:56:03 AMReally? Really? Those QBs you speak of...do they also have WRs that are at the level we have? I was listening to the announcers on the Dolphin game and they were saying how Hill and Waddle were making Tua better. There was a time in the game Waddle had two catches for 96 yards and Hill three catches for 84 yards. The majority of the yards for both WR were YAC yards. As of now Waddle leads the NFL with an average of 18 yards after the catch
This response seems to be all over the place, how did we go from OL play to Tuas WRs getting YAC yards
I don't think Tua is that much better than Jones myself, a marginal upgrade, but anyways, we have two WRs in the top 30ish range on PFF, which is good for top half of the league. They have capable receivers, a solid TE and a pro bowl RB, and elite LT, that is some pretty solid talent to work with. As for the other QBs, some of them might have had better WRs, but they got knocked on their rears often, moreso than Jones has, always facing constant pressure, but they made it work. Most did not have a RB of Barkleys caliber which also helps even it out.
At some point, the QB has to be the reason. He played very well this week, I'm still not convinced long term, but I credit him for a solid performance. He still has not showed many franchise qualities or done anything indicating he should be built aroudn as such
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 09:31:57 AMNo one is making excuses for the OL, I don't think anyone has claimed it is anything above average besides Thomas.
It is his best overall OL, but that also is not saying much of anything. But plenty of QBs have played well with equal or worse.
I think it's worth noting which QBs enjoyed superior receivers. QBs can usually get by with either good receivers or good protection, but it's extremely rare to get by without both.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 27, 2022, 10:34:54 AMI think it's worth noting which QBs enjoyed superior receivers. QBs can usually get by with either good receivers or good protection, but it's extremely rare to get by without both.
No matter how many times that point is made it gets steadfastly ignored in some quarters. Just like the 'time to throw' and 'time in pocket' dichotomy.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 09:18:07 AMYou say that like it is a positive, whereas this kind or organizational instability is what can stunt a QBs development.
It's a big time negative that all of those things have gotten the blame and been changed/upgraded yet the conversation continues to have the same direction and that is to deflect away from Daniel Jones.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 09:24:39 AMThere are always excuses for the OL. At what point do they go away?
And there, yet again is the hyperbolic 'when things are perfect' canard. No one has said things have to be perfect for him to produce better numbers, we'd just like to see a reasonably competent NFL quality OL and WR corps. No one has said he needs the Eagles OL and the Bengals receiver group.
Offensive line has been good enough for this team to have a good passing offense. No excuses needed. It's a reasonably competent NFL offensive line.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 11:53:34 AMNo matter how many times that point is made it gets steadfastly ignored in some quarters. Just like the 'time to throw' and 'time in pocket' dichotomy.
Just like Jones always gets a pass in some quarters.
You all realize you are just repeating yourselves over and over and over again making the same arguments and points right?
It's becoming just noise.
Let it go now till Feb-April and we will see who is right!
It's getting old!
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 09:15:05 AMYeah, I know, but that didn't stop some folks from throwing around the 5 seconds number. And please clarify, if you will, is that 2.9 figure time to throw or time in the pocket?
Time to throw is the time from the snap until the ball leaves the Qbs hands.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 12:46:19 PMTime to throw is the time from the snap until the ball leaves the Qbs hands.
So it's not particularly relevant, since it includes the time he's running for his life.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 12:51:00 PMSo it's not particularly relevant, since it includes the time he's running for his life.
:ok:
You want to know the really interesting thing about Jones fans. They were already emotionally invested in this guy, and are hardly sincere in caims like...
"Shoen will use the final X games as an evaluation period" or "let's see how the season plays out"
They already are and were convinced Jones should be the QB here and then they go looking for reasons why. And it goes without saying that they have excuses at the ready.
You can't argue with them about things like Baker looking great the other day ; is a free agent; and makes much more sense to build around than pay the same money to Jones on a whim and prayer.Or that Daniel Jones according to his numbers is really like a bottom tier QB.
You will never convince them because Jones to them is what a QB is supposed to be and look like and act like. The fact that he really isn't a very good QB is secondary.
It's too bad I was not around here for Eli ....Anti - Eliers I have seen --who didn't like him --didn't really like his mannerisms and because he would always blame his receivers when there was a communication problem, and they thought he whined too much. So that is why to them Jones is a better QB than Eli. Just like Baker is not better than jones either (even though he clearly is)
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 12:30:06 PMOffensive line has been good enough for this team to have a good passing offense. No excuses needed. It's a reasonably competent NFL offensive line.
Only 2 QBs have been sacked more and only one QB has been hurried more, so I can't possibly agree with your contention. The Giants O-line stinks at pass pro, no matter what kind of hand-waving is done.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 12:55:48 PMOnly 2 QBs have been sacked more and only one QB has been hurried more, so I can't possibly agree with your contention. The Giants O-line stinks at pass pro, no matter what kind of hand-waving is done.
When you have an indecisive QB that holds onto the ball as long as Jones does he's going to get sacked a lot. I don't put that all on the offensive line.
Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 12:53:29 PMYou want to know the really interesting thing about Jones fans. They were already emotionally invested in this guy, and are hardly sincere in caims like...
"Shoen will use the final X games as an evaluation period" or "let's see how the season plays out"
They already are and were convinced Jones should be the QB here and then they go looking for reasons why. And it goes without saying that they have excuses at the ready.
You can't argue with them about things like Baker looking great the other day and he is a free agent or that Daniel Jones according to his numbers is really like a bottom tier QB.
You will never convince them because Jones to them is what a QB is supposed to be and look like and act like. The fact that he really isn't a very good QB is secondary.
It's too bad I was not around here for Eli ....Anti - Eliers I have seen --who didn't like him --didn't really like his mannerisms and because he would always blame his receivers when there was a communication problem, and they thought he whined too much. So that is why to them Jones is a better QB than Eli.
Funny thing, I feel like I am one of the defenders of DJ, and I've probably made the strongest case for letting him (and Barkley) move on while they focus their CAP space on extending their stars like Dexter and Thomas, and picking up mid-pay-range FAs at lower value position like ILB and IOL, and maybe one big FA signing if there's someone they really like at one of our myriad positions of need.
Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 12:53:29 PMYou will never convince them because Jones to them is what a QB is supposed to be and look like and act like. The fact that he really isn't a very good QB is secondary.
At the end of the day, fans don't need "convincing". We shall get our answer when we see if the Giants keep Jones as their starting QB
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 12:58:31 PMWhen you have an indecisive QB that holds onto the ball as long as Jones does he's going to get sacked a lot. I don't put that all on the offensive line.
And they say no one is making excuses for the OL.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 12:51:00 PMSo it's not particularly relevant, since it includes the time he's running for his life.
In my opinion and from what I've read from professionals that use next Gen stats for clearer picture of what's going on with an offense "Time to Throw" doesn't give a ton of information on its own. Only when it's coupled with other next Gen stats like actual Air Yards, and intended air yards can you get a better picture.
For example:
Patrick mahomes has a bad time to throw stat but his air yards and intended air yards are way above average borderline really long, and his 20+ and 40+ plays are tops in the league then we can assume from the data that his time to throw is bad not because of the offensive line or anything he's doing but because he is holding the ball longer to allow for routes/plays to develop.
Daniel Jones Bad time to throw stat and his Inteded air yards, and actual air yards are extremely short, that he's holding the ball and not throwing it far when he does release suggests a disconnect in the offense.
If that helps, but yeah time to throw doesn't offer much without context of other stats involved.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:04:31 PMAnd they say no one is making excuses for the OL.
Difference is I am not trying to argue this offensive line will be elite with the addition of one elite level player. IMO they've been sufficient with room for improvement.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:02:23 PMFunny thing, I feel like I am one of the defenders of DJ, and I've probably made the strongest case for letting him (and Barkley) move on while they focus their CAP space on extending their stars like Dexter and Thomas, and picking up mid-pay-range FAs at lower value position like ILB and IOL, and maybe one big FA signing if there's someone they really like at one of our myriad positions of need.
I can never make and sense of the letting Barkley go arguments. How is this team going to score any points?
And why is it some package deal? Barkley stays since he clearly the best player on this team/ the focal point of the offense/ the only player who who has any kind of breakout plays and you can tag him for relatively little cap space.
All this talk about Sexy dex and linebackers is trying to get too cute. This defense is not a problem. And dexter is a good to have 2 down player; nothing near as important as barkley.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 01:08:38 PMDifference is I am not trying to argue this offensive line will be elite with the addition of one elite level player. IMO they've been sufficient with room for improvement.
Neither am I so this is a straw man argument. They are not sufficient at pass pro, they stink. They have one excellent player and a bunch of guys who would be back-ups on most teams.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:02:23 PMFunny thing, I feel like I am one of the defenders of DJ, and I've probably made the strongest case for letting him (and Barkley) move on while they focus their CAP space on extending their stars like Dexter and Thomas, and picking up mid-pay-range FAs at lower value position like ILB and IOL, and maybe one big FA signing if there's someone they really like at one of our myriad positions of need.
I will give you that all day. Where most people try to act neutral you are neutral from what I've seen in discussions. Even though you and I have different perspectives on Jones, we both feel the same about the future of the team. Ie Should have traded Barkley, let Jones walk, acquire solid pieces at cheaper positions in FA and draft for premium.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 01:07:41 PMIn my opinion and from what I've read from professionals that use next Gen stats for clearer picture of what's going on with an offense "Time to Throw" doesn't give a ton of information on its own. Only when it's coupled with other next Gen stats like actual Air Yards, and intended air yards can you get a better picture.
For example:
Patrick mahomes has a bad time to throw stat but his air yards and intended air yards are way above average borderline really long, and his 20+ and 40+ plays are tops in the league then we can assume from the data that his time to throw is bad not because of the offensive line or anything he's doing but because he is holding the ball longer to allow for routes/plays to develop.
Daniel Jones Bad time to throw stat and his Inteded air yards, and actual air yards are extremely short, that he's holding the ball and not throwing it far when he does release suggests a disconnect in the offense.
If that helps, but yeah time to throw doesn't offer much without context of other stats involved.
Maybe that's because Mahomes' receivers get open? They lost one of the top 3 receivers in the league and still have a receiving corps that is light-years better than the Giants'.
Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 01:08:55 PMI can never make and sense of the letting Barkley go arguments. How is this team going to score any points?
And why is it some package deal? Barkley stays since he clearly the best player on this team/ the focal point of the offense/ the only player who who has any kind of breakout plays and you can tag him for relatively little cap space.
All this talk about Sexy dex and linebackers is trying to get too cute. This defense is not a problem. And dexter is a good to have 2 down player; nothing near as important as barkley.
The lifespan for RB's is not long and Barkley has already had injury issues. Signing him to a big money extension is short sighted as IMO we've already gotten the best of Barkley as an NFL RB.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:13:14 PMNeither am I so this is a straw man argument. They are not sufficient at pass pro, they stink. They have one excellent player and a bunch of guys who would be back-ups on most teams.
LOL, you've consistently made the argument Jones can be elite with the a great supporting cast around him. The reality is when it comes to pocket play Daniel Jones is Danny Clueless.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:15:47 PMMaybe that's because Mahomes' receivers get open? They lost one of the top 3 receivers in the league and still have a receiving corps that is light-years better than the Giants'.
Or it's because Mahomes has instincts and isn't completely lost in the pocket
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:15:47 PMMaybe that's because Mahomes' receivers get open? They lost one of the top 3 receivers in the league and still have a receiving corps that is light-years better than the Giants'.
I wasn't arguing one way or another just giving examples on time to throw and how people use it.
Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 01:08:55 PMI can never make and sense of the letting Barkley go arguments. How is this team going to score any points?
And why is it some package deal? Barkley stays since he clearly the best player on this team/ the focal point of the offense/ the only player who who has any kind of breakout plays and you can tag him for relatively little cap space.
All this talk about Sexy dex and linebackers is trying to get too cute. This defense is not a problem. And dexter is a good to have 2 down player; nothing near as important as barkley.
Because filling in the holes in the roster is of more value than the marginal advantage an aging, inconsistent, and injury prone Barkley provides over the kinds of RBs you can get for modest FA money or middle round draftees.
As for the defense, they are 27th in giving up yards and 20th in points allowed. Long term, that's a problem. And while I'm not the biggest PFF fan, Dexter is putting up elite grades almost every game, while Barkley has put up some stinkers, including 7 games where he averaged under 4 ypc, two of which were under 3 yards per carry.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:24:38 PMBecause filling in the holes in the roster is of more value than the marginal advantage an aging, inconsistent, and injury prone Barkley provides over the kinds of RBs you can get for modest FA money or middle round draftees.
As for the defense, they are 27th in giving up yards and 20th in points allowed. Long term, that's a problem. And while I'm not the biggest PFF fan, Dexter is putting up elite grades almost every game, while Barkley has put up some stinkers, including 7 games where he averaged under 4 ypc, two of which were under 3 yards per carry.
I don't think so. It sounds like you are using 21 st century NFL philosophy and analytics and trying to argue in terms of absolutes. All that BS goes out the window when you have a dynamic and explosive player like Barkley; especially one you can tag for now and worry about it later.
What would the Giants record be without Barkley's 30-40 yard runs down the stretch in several games before the bye week that resulted in wins?
How many fewer points would this team have scored without Barkley and if they had some marginal back like a Fournette on their team?
And you want consistency? What you expect him to do that every game and run for 160 yards every game? That is a tall order in the NFL . This isn't high school football were talking about here.
Also I'd like to see the numbers when this team actually has a QB that can pass and score more to give the D a little more rest before we start talking about their numbers and signing Dex to any kind of money.
Does anyone else find "this backup QB" can be just as good as Jones based off one meaningless game against a bad team.
I mean there is a poster who is posting on this thread who has spoke many times on this board and another board about how much better Nick Foles is than Daniel Jones. I mean - come on people - let's do better.
Now we are all over Baker Mayfield - who's on his third team this year and the team that cut him mid season is much much better without him.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 01:57:59 PMDoes anyone else find "this backup QB" can be just as good as Jones based off one meaningless game against a bad team.
I mean there is a poster who is posting on this thread who has spoke many times on this board and another board about how much better Nick Foles is than Daniel Jones. I mean - come on people - let's do better.
Now we are all over Baker Mayfield - who's on his third team this year and the team that cut him mid season is much much better without him.
Nick Foles beat Tom Brady in a Super Bowl. He isn't special, very inconsistent, hasn't had a "good year" since 2013, but that is no minor feat and should not be overlooked.
Also I did CTRL + F for Foles in the last 5 pages, and I do not see any mentions of him in this thread? Also not sure what blaming people here for what someone on another forum said is supposed to accomplish?
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 01:59:57 PMNick Foles beat Tom Brady in a Super Bowl. He isn't special, very inconsistent, hasn't had a "good year" since 2013, but that is no minor feat and should not be overlooked.
Also I did CTRL + F for Foles in the last 5 pages, and I do not see any mentions of him in this thread? Also not sure what blaming people here for what someone on another forum said is supposed to accomplish?
If you didn't say it - then don't worry about it. The poster knows who he is.
It's sad people stuck up for Nick Foles more than people they root for.
Lol who's pumping up Nick Foles or Baker Mayfield?
I would however say that Baker Mayfield, Jones, and Murray are all in the same group of average yet uninspiring NFL starters.
:knockONwood:
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 01:15:47 PMMaybe that's because Mahomes' receivers get open? They lost one of the top 3 receivers in the league and still have a receiving corps that is light-years better than the Giants'.
I disagree that their receivers are "light years better" than the Giants'. That seems wildly hyperbolic to me.
Additionally, I think it's interesting that the Chiefs lost Tyreek Hill, a top three or four receiver in the sport, and yet Mahomes' season is significantly better this year than last year. There is a material margin for him in passer rating, QBR, and PFF this year versus last year.
If QB performance is so directly correlated to the receivers and no QB is capable of being so good that he can transcend that, how do you explain this?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2022, 02:26:15 PM:knockONwood:
I disagree that their receivers are "light years better" than the Giants'. That seems wildly hyperbolic to me.
Additionally, I think it's interesting that the Chiefs lost Tyreek Hill, a top three or four receiver in the sport, and yet Mahomes' season is significantly better this year than last year. There is a material margin for him in passer rating, QBR, and PFF this year versus last year.
If QB performance is so directly correlated to the receivers and no QB is capable of being so good that he can transcend that, how do you explain this?
How do you explain hill having more catches and yards without Mahomes then?
It works both ways.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 02:28:52 PMHow do you explain hill having more catches and yards without Mahomes then?
It works both ways.
That's two different questions. Hill for whatever reason had a slightly down year last year relative to all his other years with Mahomes. That is not uncommon and there are any number of reasons for that. Could have been nursing a minor injury that mildly impacted his performance. Who knows.
My point is Hill is clearly a stud receiver who is easily top five and most likely top three in the league. I don't think that statement is up for debate.
Hill left the Chiefs.
Mahomes' numbers are better this year than they were last year.
My point is that that's hard to explain if the correlation between QB performance and their exact receivers is as direct and strong as you guys say it is. Losing Hill, according to how many here emphasize the dramatic importance of receivers, should have impacted Mahomes noticeably to the downside, and not only has that not happened, but Mahomes is having an MVP caliber season that is better than last year by a significant margin.
^
Game. Set. Match.
That's not to say that I don't think d jones could be effective laying on the dolphins and 49ers. He very well could and needs a team like that.
But for him to be here given the holes in the roster and not on a rookie deal makes no sense .
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2022, 02:46:05 PMThat's two different questions. Hill for whatever reason had a slightly down year last year relative to all his other years with Mahomes. That is not uncommon and there are any number of reasons for that. Could have been nursing a minor injury that mildly impacted his performance. Who knows.
My point is Hill is clearly a stud receiver who is easily top five and most likely top three in the league. I don't think that statement is up for debate.
Hill left the Chiefs.
Mahomes' numbers are better this year than they were last year.
My point is that that's hard to explain if the correlation between QB performance and their exact receivers is as direct and strong as you guys say it is. Losing Hill, according to how many here emphasize the dramatic importance of receivers, should have impacted Mahomes noticeably to the downside, and not only has that not happened, but Mahomes is having an MVP caliber season that is better than last year by a significant margin.
Tannehill lost AJ Brown and his numbers are the exact same; Chase was out for over a month and Burrow continued to put up top 5 numbers. I could go on-and-on...
Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 03:25:48 PMTannehill lost AJ Brown and his numbers are the exact same; Chase was out for over a month and Burrow continued to put up top 5 numbers. I could go on-and-on...
Allen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?
Again... works both ways.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:30:05 PMWhat does this even mean?
Game, set, match:An expression indicating finality, announcing that a series of events—usually involving some form of rivalry—has reached a conclusion.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 03:38:41 PMGame, set, match:An expression indicating finality, announcing that a series of events—usually involving some form of rivalry—has reached a conclusion.
So in the interest of this discussion we should attach the word irrelevant as well.
Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 01:40:31 PMAnd you want consistency? What you expect him to do that every game and run for 160 yards every game? That is a tall order in the NFL . This isn't high school football were talking about here.
If you have to argue it would be great if you would argue against what I actually say rather than just making up straw men. There's a vast gulf between saying I want 160 yards per game every game, which I never said, and pointing out that in half the games he averaged less than 4 ypc in half the games, which is what I actually said. Just like I never said Jones needs everything perfect, or an elite player at every position on the offense like some have claimed I said.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:31:53 PMAllen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?
Again... works both ways.
Rodgers's is 38...this could be a natural decline that happens with all QBs. Carrs numbers are the same with Adam's as without him.
Herbert's "dip" is VASTLY overstated. Have you compared and contrasted the numbers against last year's production? It's not as vast as you and BF suggest.
TUAs has come back to earth the last five weeks, going 1 and 4, while throwing 5 TD to 4 int. Even with two elite WRs, he's settling into to exact QB he's always been. Good, but not great.
Besides, you're missing the point. The point is, there's absolutely no guarantee that adding an elite wr will vastly improve DJs performance. The data actually says the reverse for QBs on their second contacts below 35 years old.
Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 03:23:36 PM^
Game. Set. Match.
That's not to say that I don't think d jones could be effective laying on the dolphins and 49ers. He very well could and needs a team like that.
But for him to be here given the holes in the roster and not on a rookie deal makes no sense .
You said Jones sucks on another thread. No walking back now...
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:40:11 PMSo in the interest of this discussion we should attach the word irrelevant as well.
I have no clue what you're even talking about I was just giving you the definition of a saying you asked the meaning to.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:31:53 PMAllen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?
Again... works both ways.
Ok, yes it works both ways, but you continue to say that. How would you explain Mahomes, Tannehill, Burrow, etc are all still playing equally well or better when playing without their top, elite, #1 WRs? Why aren't their numbers plummeting?
Why is a guy like Carr, despite getting Davante Adams, not playing much better? Getting a #1 WR is supposed to take you over the top as you have implied.
It seems that having these elite weapons is not as impactful as you make it out to be, seeing as some have worked out, where others have not, seems to be a pretty even mix of the two.
In reference to some of the examples you gave Rodgers has won 5 straight with Watsons lightbulb turning on a bit. They've entered the wildcard discussion. Also, how is Hopkins and the AZ doing without Murray? Herbert, despite missing Allen for half the season, and Williams for a few games, still posted a winning record of 5-4, close to .500, but still above it, and they will be playing in the playoffs thanks to it.
I will give you Allen and to a lesser extent Tua, they did play a lot better with the #1s added. Tua has still been wildly inconsistent, but better nonetheless. I view him as the same tier as Jones.
The data suggest an elite wr can help a QB on a rookie contract, playing less than 30 games, or an older QB playing his his twilight years. They have little impact on QBs in their prime.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 03:49:11 PMOk, yes it works both ways, but you continue to say that. How would you explain Mahomes, Tannehill, Burrow, etc are all still playing equally well or better when playing without their top, elite, #1 WRs? Why aren't their numbers plummeting?
Why is a guy like Carr, despite getting Davante Adams, not playing much better? Getting a #1 WR is supposed to take you over the top as you have implied.
It seems that having these elite weapons is not as impactful as you make it out to be, seeing as some have worked out, where others have not, seems to be a pretty even mix of the two.
In reference to some of the examples you gave Rodgers has won 5 straight with Watsons lightbulb turning on a bit. They've entered the wildcard discussion. Also, how is Hopkins and the AZ doing without Murray? Herbert, despite missing Allen for half the season, and Williams for a few games, still posted a winning record of 5-4, close to .500, but still above it, and they will be playing in the playoffs thanks to it.
I will give you Allen and to a lesser extent Tua, they did play a lot better with the #1s added. Tua has still been wildly inconsistent, but better nonetheless. I view him as the same tier as Jones.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 03:49:11 PMOk, yes it works both ways, but you continue to say that. How would you explain Mahomes, Tannehill, Burrow, etc are all still playing equally well or better when playing without their top, elite, #1 WRs? Why aren't their numbers plummeting?
Why is a guy like Carr, despite getting Davante Adams, not playing much better? Getting a #1 WR is supposed to take you over the top as you have implied.
It seems that having these elite weapons is not as impactful as you make it out to be, seeing as some have worked out, where others have not, seems to be a pretty even mix of the two.
In reference to some of the examples you gave Rodgers has won 5 straight with Watsons lightbulb turning on a bit. They've entered the wildcard discussion. Also, how is Hopkins and the AZ doing without Murray? Herbert, despite missing Allen for half the season, and Williams for a few games, still posted a winning record of 5-4, close to .500, but still above it, and they will be playing in the playoffs thanks to it.
I will give you Allen and to a lesser extent Tua, they did play a lot better with the #1s added. Tua has still been wildly inconsistent, but better nonetheless. I view him as the same tier as Jones.
Mahomes is gonna go down as one of the greatest ever. There's nothing wrong with saying he makes others around him better.
Tannehill is and always been an average QB who plays in a run first system.
Burrow had 8 TDs and 3 INTs without Chase in 4 games. Very small sample size. In those 4 games - he had a monster game (against Pitt with 4 TDs)- the other 3 were average games for him.
If you want to see what Hopkins meant for Murray - go check out what Arizona did with and without him last year. This year was a wasted year with Murray being banged up and Hopkins missing the first 6 games.
Devante adams joining the Raiders helped Josh Jacob's more than it helped anyone.
I have a hard time deciding if a true number one would help or hurt Jones.
In Jones career he's never been one to feed a Hot hand, the opposite In fact he tends to spread the ball around evenly or follow the game plan. Would getting a number one actually hurt him because he feels the need to force him the ball? There are a ton of variables that you just wouldn't know until it happened.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 04:10:44 PMMahomes is gonna go down as one of the greatest ever. There's nothing wrong with saying he makes others around him better.
Tannehill is and always been an average QB who plays in a run first system.
Burrow had 8 TDs and 3 INTs without Chase in 4 games. Very small sample size. In those 4 games - he had a monster game (against Pitt with 4 TDs)- the other 3 were average games for him.
If you want to see what Hopkins meant for Murray - go check out what Arizona did with and without him last year. This year was a wasted year with Murray being banged up and Hopkins missing the first 6 games.
Mahomes is a GOAT potentially, but losing Hill should have still made life harder, it hasn't, as great as he is, he is unquestionably playing better without him, He still has Kelce, but he was there with Hill every year.
Wouldn't Tannehill being average and in a run oriented attack, further highlight the importance of a #1 WR, why hasn't he regressed being average without AJ Brown? An average QB would surely play worse without a pro bowl #1 WR right? Why is Henry still playing well despite no WR to draw doubles and/or keep defenses honest? That's one less guy to stop after trading him away.
You can't say Burrow was a sample size, then used a portion of Herberts season as an argument point. They both went a portion of the season without their top guy(s). Burrow also missed Mixon for a couple of games too.
The point on Hopkins and Murray still does not explain why Murrays absence has clearly been felt since his injury, they have been horrible without him.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 04:10:44 PMMahomes is gonna go down as one of the greatest ever. There's nothing wrong with saying he makes others around him better.
Tannehill is and always been an average QB who plays in a run first system.
Burrow had 8 TDs and 3 INTs without Chase in 4 games. Very small sample size. In those 4 games - he had a monster game (against Pitt with 4 TDs)- the other 3 were average games for him.
If you want to see what Hopkins meant for Murray - go check out what Arizona did with and without him last year. This year was a wasted year with Murray being banged up and Hopkins missing the first 6 games.
Isn't that Jones though? An average QB In a run first offense. That sums him up perfectly as Tannehill is the Jones ceiling comp for most fans and pundits alike.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 04:18:30 PMIsn't that Jones though? An average QB In a run first offense. That sums him up perfectly as Tannehill is the Jones ceiling comp for most fans and pundits alike.
It's also not true. Tannehill last two years in Mia were actually pretty good. He also put up an MVP type season a few years ago. He's not average, he's good. The problem is, good is no longer good enough.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 04:18:30 PMIsn't that Jones though? An average QB In a run first offense. That sums him up perfectly as Tannehill is the Jones ceiling comp for most fans and pundits alike.
He never had a WR like AJ brown. And I would argue a RB as good as Henry.
https://twitter.com/JordanRaanan/status/1607819180308586496
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlAF2hqaAAAjxtk?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 03:31:53 PMAllen took a giant leap when he got Diggs.
Murray's best games were with Hopkins.
Tua is much better with Hill.
Herbert's numbers took a major dip without Allen and Williams.
How's Aaron Rodgers doing without Adams?
Again... works both ways.
Question for you AP that I asked someone else and got the run around. How do you explain a QB like Kirk Cousins who put up the season he did in 2015 in his first full season in Washington without a 1,000 yard receiver on the squad?
Sure his number have gone up in Minnesota with Diggs and now Jefferson but he was a productive passer even before he had elite weapons.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 04:39:31 PMQuestion for you AP that I asked someone else and got the run around. How do you explain a QB like Kirk Cousins who put up the season he did in 2015 in his first full season in Washington without a 1,000 yard receiver on the squad?
Sure his number have gone up in Minnesota with Diggs and now Jefferson but he was a productive passer even before he had elite weapons.
An anomaly? I am curious why you didn't cite the year when he had 2 1,000 yard receivers and another with near 900?
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 04:42:51 PMAn anomaly? I am curious why you didn't cite the year when he had 2 1,000 yard receivers and another with near 900?
I cited his first full season which was 2015 as a reference point for someone who didn't need elite weapons initially to be a highly productive QB. If Cousins had a 3,000 yard 20 TD 65% completion first full season then I would get your point about picking that season as moving the goal posts.
So in your opinion he's an anomaly. That's ok I was just curious.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 04:39:31 PMQuestion for you AP that I asked someone else and got the run around. How do you explain a QB like Kirk Cousins who put up the season he did in 2015 in his first full season in Washington without a 1,000 yard receiver on the squad?
Sure his number have gone up in Minnesota with Diggs and now Jefferson but he was a productive passer even before he had elite weapons.
Cousins had Jordan Reed who was a Pro Bowl TE short of 40 yards for 1K receiving.
DJax was coming off a 1K season previous year and only play 9 games in 2015 but still managed to gain 528 rec yards and 4 TDs. Garcon and Crowder picked up the slack with 1,381 rec yards and 8 TD combined. Plus he has Morris who is also a Pro Bowl TE and Trent Williams who is a stud tackle. Plus McVay calling the plays on offense.
That Washington team had weapons to work with. You cannot compare with the 2022 Giants. Let's say it's a wash between Thomas and Williams. Saquon is better than Morris. But to compare DJax, Garcon, Crowder and Jordan Reed to Slayton, James, Hodgins, it's not even close.
Plus Cousins had 3 years to learn the system before becoming the full time starter. You weren't being given the run around but rather refuse to accept the truth with your blind hatred for Jones. But hey I get it. Each one of us is entitled to our own opinion right?
I'm responding in this thread because this is about DJ, not Hodgins:
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 04:44:04 PMThe offensive line was always going to be a work in progress this season. It has improved but there is more work to be done.
Your claim about pass protection being bad is based on the facts that you choose to acknowledge ignoring the facts that don't support your claim.
Which facts would that be?
https://twitter.com/BleavNetwork/status/1607850181013151747
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 05:04:27 PMCousins had Jordan Reed who was a Pro Bowl TE short of 40 yards for 1K receiving.
DJax was coming off a 1K season previous year and only play 9 games in 2015 but still managed to gain 528 rec yards and 4 TDs. Garcon and Crowder picked up the slack with 1,381 rec yards and 8 TD combined. Plus he has Morris who is also a Pro Bowl TE and Trent Williams who is a stud tackle. Plus McVay calling the plays on offense.
That Washington team had weapons to work with. You cannot compare with the 2022 Giants. Let's say it's a wash between Thomas and Williams. Saquon is better than Morris. But to compare DJax, Garcon, Crowder and Jordan Reed to Slayton, James, Hodgins, it's not even close.
Plus Cousins had 3 years to learn the system before becoming the full time starter. You weren't being given the run around but rather refuse to accept the truth with your blind hatred for Jones. But hey I get it. Each one of us is entitled to our own opinion right?
And I get you blindly love Jones and are part of the it's everyone else's fault that the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football. But hey I get it you'd rather the illusion that if you get things perfect for Jones he'd be a superstar. You're entitled to your opinion.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 05:04:53 PMI'm responding in this thread because this is about DJ, not Hodgins:
Which facts would that be?
The time to throw fact.
I don't even get what were arguing .... so D Jones could be a better QB with better stats --in theory anyway-- if he was playing with T Hill or if he had Kelce as his TE?
OK great.So what? And Guess what? That would hold true for like every starting QB in the NFL and even a lot of the back ups. So what is so special about D Jones then that you would want him on this team on a non rookie deal and playing without a Kelce or T Hill to throw to. If you are being honest the answer is there is nothing. There never was.
Also I love these arguments... like it is so easy to get a stud WR or great TE. "oh just draft one in the first round". Um didn't we do that with Evan Engram? Didn't we do that with K Toney? Didn't we sign several WR1 free agents to big contracts? How did that work out?
It really worked out well for other teams that got to pick these players up and actually get some production out of them . Oh but the have generational talent QBs and Hall of fame QBs throwing to them ? So again what is special about Jones?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 27, 2022, 05:20:32 PMDid you actually watch what you posted? :laugh:
Everyone should spend the 9 minutes and watch it.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:10:24 PMAnd I get you blindly love Jones and are part of the it's everyone else's fault that the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football. But hey I get it you'd rather the illusion that if you get things perfect for Jones he'd be a superstar. You're entitled to your opinion.
The time to throw fact.
Like I said we're all entitled to our own opinion. Your arguing that Cousins was productive in spite of that team not having a 1K receiver as if he made the players better around him.
My counter argument is that Redskins team had talent to work with for a QB to be productive who was already pretty familiar with the system in place having 3 years to learn it. It also helped that his OC was McVay who came to be a super bowl winning coach.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:10:24 PMThe time to throw fact.
Sorry, been debunked. Time to throw includes the time he spends running for his life. It's not like that's the time he gets to sit in the pocket surveying the field.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 05:23:24 PMSorry, been debunked. Time to throw includes the time he spends running for his life. It's not like that's the time he gets to sit in the pocket surveying the field.
He does sit in the pocket surveying the field but he's so indecisive and can't see things he ends up taking sacks.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:26:35 PMHe does sit in the pocket surveying the field but he's so indecisive and can't see things he ends up taking sacks.
See, that's not a fact, it is an opinion, unless you have some way of quantifying that. But here's another fact. In addition to there being only 2 QBs who were sacked more, and only 1 QB who was hurried more, there are only 4 QBS who have been knocked down more.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 05:23:23 PMLike I said we're all entitled to our own opinion. Your arguing that Cousins was productive in spite of that team not having a 1K receiver as if he made the players better around him.
My counter argument is that Redskins team had talent to work with for a QB to be productive who was already pretty familiar with the system in place having 3 years to learn it. It also helped that his OC was McVay who came to be a super bowl winning coach.
And my counter to your counter is that Jones has just as much talent to work with as Cousins did that year. Sure Morris was a good RB but he was not near the all around threat Barkley is. Opponents weren't game planning to stop Morris the way the Giants opponents game plan to stop Barkley and make the passing game beat them.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 05:30:39 PMSee, that's not a fact, it is an opinion, unless you have some way of quantifying that. But here's another fact. In addition to there being only 2 QBs who were sacked more, and only 1 QB who was hurried more, there are only 4 QBS who have been knocked down more.
It is a fact for those of us who actually watch the games.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 27, 2022, 05:05:59 PMhttps://twitter.com/BleavNetwork/status/1607850181013151747
As usual I found this to be a great listen. Interesting that Banks believes DJ is looking at a big payday if for no other reason than the # of teams desperate to upgrade the position. His feeling is DJ will get an offer(s) in the $30m per neighborhood which I'm sure would set the hair on fire of some here, should that team be the Giants
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:33:10 PMIt is a fact for those of us who actually watch the games.
Uncalled for post. Should be reported.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:33:10 PMAnd my counter to your counter is that Jones has just as much talent to work with as Cousins did that year. Sure Morris was a good RB but he was not near the all around threat Barkley is. Opponents weren't game planning to stop Morris the way the Giants opponents game plan to stop Barkley and make the passing game beat them.
It is a fact for those of us who actually watch the games.
Yet you ignore the WR group and TE. Plus the fact that Cousins had the luxury to learn the system for 3 years before becoming the full time starter.
That's stability and structure that Jones does not have the luxury of. He is in year 1 of a completely new system and philosophy. Like what Banks said in the video posted earlier. The team just do not have the luxury having solid pass blocking to take multiple shots down the field.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:39:37 PMUncalled for post. Should be reported.
Like making a joke about a President's Assassination?
Please spare us all
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:43:09 PMLike making a joke about a President's Assassination?
Please spare us all
I apologized to Mrs Lincoln. Now you apologize Az.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 05:40:13 PMYet you ignore the WR group and TE. Plus the fact that Cousins had the luxury to learn the system for 3 years before becoming the full time starter.
That's stability and structure that Jones does not have the luxury of. He is in year 1 of a completely new system and philosophy. Like what Banks said in the video posted earlier. The team just do not have the luxury having solid pass blocking to take multiple shots down the field.
Good post. You're wasting your breath on him though.
https://youtu.be/64-9qeQwc74
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:47:33 PMGood post. You're wasting your breath on him though.
LOL and here you go complaining about me then you antagonize this way. Again spare us you're no angel here.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:39:37 PMUncalled for post. Should be reported.
The irony is rich. If you feel it's reportable, report it and let the mods to their jobs.
It's not a big deal. It's a snarky comment, nothing more.
I'll do better. Gotta go rewatch the game...
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:54:49 PMI'll do better. Gotta go rewatch the game...
I envy anyone who has that amount of free time.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 05:55:33 PMI envy anyone who has that amount of free time.
I'm getting chemo as we speak. I have some time on my hands.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:56:28 PMI'm getting chemo as we speak. I have some time on my hands.
How are you making out with those issues?
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:56:28 PMI'm getting chemo as we speak. I have some time on my hands.
I'm sorry you're going through that and hoping for the best outcome for you.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 27, 2022, 05:57:24 PMHow are you making out with those issues?
Was off chemo for 6 weeks. Didn't get good news on my last scans so the doctor put me back on it. Been a struggle but meaningful Giants football and discussion is a plus. But overall the tumors are smaller than when first diagnosed so I am still on the good side. The cold weather - let me tell - it f'n blows though lol.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:59:48 PMI'm sorry you're going through that and hoping for the best outcome for you.
Thanks! Trust me this isn't going to stop me from out back and forth :P :ok:
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 05:56:28 PMI'm getting chemo as we speak. I have some time on my hands.
I hope it's successful, and you don't endure the side effects.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 06:01:01 PMThanks! Trust me this isn't going to stop me from out back and forth :P :ok:
I would hope it wouldn't. Lol
Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 06:01:37 PMI hope it's successful, and you don't endure the side effects.
Thanks!
AP,
I'm sorry to hear that you got news that you had to go back on chemo during the holiday season. I hope this phase is short-lived and that you get through all of this as soon as possible and with as little discomfort as possible.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 06:00:15 PMWas off chemo for 6 weeks. Didn't get good news on my last scans so the doctor put me back on it. Been a struggle but meaningful Giants football and discussion is a plus. But overall the tumors are smaller than when first diagnosed so I am still on the good side. The cold weather - let me tell - it f'n blows though lol.
Ironically, the wife and I escaped the cold by visiting my parents and our oldest in Maine for the holidays. It was 60 degrees warmer here than Co. However, no we're stuck as we're 'victims' of the airlines.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2022, 06:04:25 PMAP,
I'm sorry to hear that you got news that you had to go back on chemo during the holiday season. I hope this phase is short-lived and that you get through all of this as soon as possible and with as little discomfort as possible.
Thanks DB, unfortunately as rare as my condition is - my doctor believes I'll have to the rest of my life at age 41. But it should be managed. Surgery and transplant were worse options.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 06:00:15 PMWas off chemo for 6 weeks. Didn't get good news on my last scans so the doctor put me back on it. Been a struggle but meaningful Giants football and discussion is a plus. But overall the tumors are smaller than when first diagnosed so I am still on the good side. The cold weather - let me tell - it f'n blows though lol.
I am sorry to hear that (but I like the little bit of good news), we are all pulling for you.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 05:40:13 PMYet you ignore the WR group and TE. Plus the fact that Cousins had the luxury to learn the system for 3 years before becoming the full time starter.
That's stability and structure that Jones does not have the luxury of. He is in year 1 of a completely new system and philosophy. Like what Banks said in the video posted earlier. The team just do not have the luxury having solid pass blocking to take multiple shots down the field.
To everyone saying we don't have talent at RB, WR, and TE, what are you all basing that on? It's not PFF grades, it's not stats, so what is it?
We have a 1250yd 10TD pro bowler at RB, many here claim Bellinger is a very good find in the draft (I agree) who has played well, at Tight End, Slayton is posting WR2 numbers, him and Hodgins are both outplaying many of the WRs people wanted them to trade for, their PFF grades are also higher than many of the receivers, they are graded amongst the top half of the league. Hodgins in recent weeks has been a TD magnet.
So again, if we have no talent or weapons, what is that being based on? Because it seems to me we have several along with an Elite LT
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 06:36:29 PMTo everyone saying we don't have talent at RB, WR, and TE, what are you all basing that on? It's not PFF grades, it's not stats, so what is it?
We have a 1250yd 10TD pro bowler at RB, many here claim Bellinger is a very good find in the draft (I agree) who has played well, at Tight End, Slayton is posting WR2 numbers, him and Hodgins are both outplaying many of the WRs people wanted them to trade for, their PFF grades are also higher than many of the receivers, they are graded amongst the top half of the league. Hodgins in recent weeks has been a TD magnet.
So again, if we have no talent or weapons, what is that being based on? Because it seems to me we have several along with an Elite LT
https://twitter.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1607798617150001153
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 06:00:15 PMWas off chemo for 6 weeks. Didn't get good news on my last scans so the doctor put me back on it. Been a struggle but meaningful Giants football and discussion is a plus. But overall the tumors are smaller than when first diagnosed so I am still on the good side. The cold weather - let me tell - it f'n blows though lol.
Hope you get better soon AP
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 27, 2022, 06:44:30 PM(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlAF2hqaAAAjxtk?format=jpg&name=large)
PFF say something differently; the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
I may be in the minority, but I am not a huge Bellinger fan. I think he's a solid and could be a very good 2nd TE. As a receiver, I just don't see anything special.
If Michael Mayer in 223 or Brock Bowers is available in 2024, I wouldn't even hesitate to take them.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 06:54:01 PMI may be in the minority, but I am not a huge Bellinger fan. I think he's a solid and could be a very good 2nd TE. As a receiver, I just don't see anything special.
If Michael Mayer in 223 or Brock Bowers is available in 2024, I wouldn't even hesitate to take them.
Interesting. I like Bellinger myself. I think TE is a position where rookies very seldom shine, and I have generally liked what I have seen from him (save for the ugly fumble the other day. And while I agree that he's not the second coming of Travis Kelce, I think he could end up being a solid all-around NFL TE in the Kyle Rudolph (in his prime) type mold.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2022, 06:58:18 PMInteresting. I like Bellinger myself. I think TE is a position where rookies very seldom shine, and I have generally liked what I have seen from him (save for the ugly fumble the other day. And while I agree that he's not the second coming of Travis Kelce, I think he could end up being a solid all-around NFL TE in the Kyle Rudolph (in his prime) type mold.
That's a solid write up. If he continues to improve his blocking - he may end up a solid starter but for once I'd like to see him break some tackles and get some chunk gains lol.
The TE seam pass is something that we need in this offense. Forget Bavaro who was a master of it but guys like Boss and Ballard just seemed to get a few of these catches when we needed them the most.
As I said on draft night, I was down on the field during SD walk through...the man has the softest hands I've seen/heard. There's no thud, there's almost no sound at all. He's a good blocker; although, he doesn't have much twitch. I loved the pick that evening and I still love it now. He just needs more opportunities.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 07:03:56 PMThat's a solid write up. If he continues to improve his blocking - he may end up a solid starter but for once I'd like to see him break some tackles and get some chunk gains lol.
The TE seam pass is something that we need in this offense. Forget Bavaro who was a master of it but guys like Boss and Ballard just seemed to get a few of these catches when we needed them the most.
Good point. We haven't seen nearly enough of that since the days of those TEs you mentioned.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 06:54:01 PMI may be in the minority, but I am not a huge Bellinger fan. I think he's a solid and could be a very good 2nd TE. As a receiver, I just don't see anything special.
If Michael Mayer in 223 or Brock Bowers is available in 2024, I wouldn't even hesitate to take them.
I don't think Bellinger is an All Pro type TE but could see him becoming a Kevin Boss like solid productive TE.
Quote from: AP44 on December 27, 2022, 07:03:56 PMThat's a solid write up. If he continues to improve his blocking - he may end up a solid starter but for once I'd like to see him break some tackles and get some chunk gains lol.
The TE seam pass is something that we need in this offense. Forget Bavaro who was a master of it but guys like Boss and Ballard just seemed to get a few of these catches when we needed them the most.
A guy that was on pace prior to a significant eye injury to put up some solid numbers as a mid/late round TE pick isn't anything that excites you! Ok! If not for the eye injury and time off we would be having the convo he could be the steal of the draft.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 27, 2022, 07:16:51 PMA guy that was on pace prior to a significant eye injury to put up some solid numbers as a mid/late round TE pick isn't anything that excites you! Ok! If not for the eye injury and time off we would be having the convo he could be the steal of the draft.
I don't know about biggest steal in the entire draft but I've been impressed with him given he is a day three drafted rookie playing a position where guys usually take a year or two to figure out the NFL game at.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 06:52:17 PMPFF say something differently; the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
WAR is actually an advanced PFF metric. Look at the bottom right corner of the chart
https://www.pff.com/war
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 06:36:29 PMTo everyone saying we don't have talent at RB, WR, and TE, what are you all basing that on? It's not PFF grades, it's not stats, so what is it?
We have a 1250yd 10TD pro bowler at RB, many here claim Bellinger is a very good find in the draft (I agree) who has played well, at Tight End, Slayton is posting WR2 numbers, him and Hodgins are both outplaying many of the WRs people wanted them to trade for, their PFF grades are also higher than many of the receivers, they are graded amongst the top half of the league. Hodgins in recent weeks has been a TD magnet.
So again, if we have no talent or weapons, what is that being based on? Because it seems to me we have several along with an Elite LT
Richie James is a journey man WR because he is consistent. He is shifty and has quickness but as we have seen, inconsistent hands.
Hodgins has been productive but having top end speed and being shifty he is not. Which kind of needed to create separation as a WR.
Are they hard workers yes. Won't dispute that but you also need talent on the field. Look at Woolen from the Seahawks. That size and speed combination is going go create problems for any WR going against him.
Using Hodgins on that INT thrown, could DJ have thrown a better ball? Yes absolutely. But if you have a WR that is faster, quicker that throwing window would not be as tight as it was throwing to Hodgins. Faster and quicker players by talent alone is enough to win their match ups. For our coaching we have more of scheming guys open than players winning in individual match ups.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 07:54:23 PMRichie James is a journey man WR because he is consistent. He is shifty and has quickness but as we have seen, inconsistent hands.
Hodgins has been productive but having top end speed and being shifty he is not. Which kind of needed to create separation as a WR.
Are they hard workers yes. Won't dispute that but you also need talent on the field. Look at Woolen from the Seahawks. That size and speed combination is going go create problems for any WR going against him.
Using Hodgins on that INT thrown, could DJ have thrown a better ball? Yes absolutely. But if you have a WR that is faster, quicker that throwing window would not be as tight as it was throwing to Hodgins. Faster and quicker players by talent alone is enough to win their match ups. For our coaching we have more of scheming guys open than players winning in individual match ups.
I agree with your Richie James evaluation. He can be dangerous but he can also be a liability.
I think Hodgins might be better than you're giving him credit for. I'm not 100% sure of that yet but I'm really liking what I'm seeing from him. I'm not suggesting we have another Larry Fitzgerald on our hands or anything, and I agree that he's not very fast, but he's big, he seems to be a good route runner, and his hands seem really good. I want to see more of him.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:33:10 PMIt is a fact for those of us who actually watch the games.
So, no actual measurable fact.
And it is remarkable that PFF is almost universally regarded, here, as opinion, but YOUR eyes produce"facy".
Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 27, 2022, 08:24:55 PMSo, no actual measurable fact.
And it is remarkable that PFF is almost universally regarded, here, as opinion, but YOUR eyes produce"facy".
You're right AZ as always you're never wrong and all knowing :surrender:
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 07:54:23 PMUsing Hodgins on that INT thrown, could DJ have thrown a better ball? Yes absolutely. But if you have a WR that is faster, quicker that throwing window would not be as tight as it was throwing to Hodgins. Faster and quicker players by talent alone is enough to win their match ups. For our coaching we have more of scheming guys open than players winning in individual match ups.
You understand that INT was thrown behind Hodgins not in front of him making what you said make zero sense.
You rarely know what a TE is until year three. That's when they all tend to blossom into what they become as a pro for the remainder of their career.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2022, 08:07:50 PMI agree with your Richie James evaluation. He can be dangerous but he can also be a liability.
I think Hodgins might be better than you're giving him credit for. I'm not 100% sure of that yet but I'm really liking what I'm seeing from him. I'm not suggesting we have another Larry Fitzgerald on our hands or anything, and I agree that he's not very fast, but he's big, he seems to be a good route runner, and his hands seem really good. I want to see more of him.
I agree with you. Even Nick and Dan rave about him breaking down the tape vs. the Vikings.
https://youtu.be/0ntUIdxHMq4
He may not top end speed but as they alluded to, he manages to create space with his technique. It may not necessarily be a lot but enough for DJ or any QB to work with. Most importantly out of Slayton and James, our most sure handed WR on the field.
I like him as a complementary WR playing with a true #1.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 08:32:56 PMYou understand that INT was thrown behind Hodgins not in front of him making what you said make zero sense.
I was saying that it was bad throw by DJ and yes it was behind Hodgins. He did not lead the WR with that ball.
The point I was making is if it was a more faster WR the coverage would not have been as tight as it was. Imagine Slayton instead running that route vs an aging Peterson. Slayton's speed alone would be enough to create separation and at the very least not allow the CB make a play on that ball.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 08:57:01 PMI was saying that it was bad throw by DJ and yes it was behind Hodgins. He did not lead the WR with that ball.
The point I was making is if it was a more faster WR the coverage would not have been as tight as it was. Imagine Slayton instead running that route vs an aging Peterson. Slayton's speed alone would be enough to create separation and at the very least not allow the CB make a play on that ball.
That doesn't make any sense as the ball was considerably behind him. Having a faster WR won't improve the QB accuracy. Consider the critical 4th dorm against the cowboys, Barkley had his man beat by a mile and DJ put the ball behind him and at his feat.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 27, 2022, 09:04:24 PMThat doesn't make any sense as the ball was considerably behind him. Having a faster WR won't improve the QB accuracy. Consider the critical 4th dorm against the cowboys, Barkley had his man beat by a mile and DJ put the ball behind him and at his feat.
The Hodgins pass was picked off because it was behind the WR. But the coverage was also pretty tight with Peterson since Hodgins is not as fast as most WRs in the league.
The point I'm making is if it was a faster WR running that route. The WR's speed should be enough to create separation for a better throwing window. With better separation, hypothetically even if the ball was thrown behind it should be far enough that the defender cannot make a play on the ball unlike what happened on that pass attemp to Hodgins.
ADDENDUM
Dan explain here the kind of separation and space that Slayton's speed creates against the defense. If not for his inconsistent hands, Slayton may be a viable #1
https://youtu.be/0ntUIdxHMq4
It's around the 38 minute mark.
No disagreement on Slayton; his hands are the reason he was drafted in the 5th round. He is what he is.
Quote from: GMenRF on December 27, 2022, 09:10:42 PMThe Hodgins pass was picked off because it was behind the WR. But the coverage was also pretty tight with Peterson since Hodgins is not as fast as most WRs in the league.
This might be the weakest defense for an interception that I've ever read.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 05:43:14 AMThis might be the weakest defense for an interception that I've ever read.
I think your misinterpreting what I said. I may be pro Jones but I'm not going turn a blind eye on his deficiencies which he still needs to work on.
That was purely a bad throw. Well behind the WR. Which Nick and Dan also points out in their piece. DJ struggles with ball placement on those horizontal or in/out crossing routes. On the out route to Saquon if DJ had better ball placement, Saquon could have turned the corner and picked up more yards.
The point I'm making is with faster/quicker WRs, purely on speed alone they can create bigger throwing windows and easier passes for the QB. Something that DJ doesn't really have the luxury of given with the WRs we have.
The better illustrate the point. If you watch how Mike McDaniel draws up plays for the Dolphins. It creates so much stress on the defense when they are challenged to cover a bigger area for the field because of the speed of Hill and Waddle. They feast on big plays primarily off of the speed of Hill and Waddle. To compliment it also, because of the threat they pose for defenses it leaves other players unaccounted which creates options for Tua.
3:20 Analyzing Daniel Jones' Season + Future
Quote from: GMenRF on December 28, 2022, 05:57:24 AMI think your misinterpreting what I said. I may be pro Jones but I'm not going turn a blind eye on his deficiencies which he still needs to work on.
That was purely a bad throw. Well behind the WR. Which Nick and Dan also points out in their piece. DJ struggles with ball placement on those horizontal or in/out crossing routes. On the out route to Saquon if DJ had better ball placement, Saquon could have turned the corner and picked up more yards.
The point I'm making is with faster/quicker WRs, purely on speed alone they can create bigger throwing windows and easier passes for the QB. Something that DJ doesn't really have the luxury of given with the WRs we have.
The better illustrate the point. If you watch how Mike McDaniel draws up plays for the Dolphins. It creates so much stress on the defense when they are challenged to cover a bigger area for the field because of the speed of Hill and Waddle. They feast on big plays primarily off of the speed of Hill and Waddle. To compliment it also, because of the threat they pose for defenses it leaves other players unaccounted which creates options for Tua.
Your point has nothing to do with that interception.
It would be like an argument being made that a receiver that drops a perfectly placed ball in stride wouldn't have dropped the ball if they had a better QB.
So, the reason for DJs INT was because he is "not fast"
Do you want a faster WR to run further away from it, making it look more underthrown? It was a bad throw through and through.
There are plenty of good WRs in the league, 1s and 2s, that aren't blazing fast.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 05:43:14 AMThis might be the weakest defense for an interception that I've ever read.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 08:57:51 AM3:20 Analyzing Daniel Jones' Season + Future
Genuinely seems from the portion that i watched that he's trying to find reasons to like him and then does the same thing we do with Jones every freaking season "well, umm... I want him to be more aggressive NEXT year" "you can't be 11th in QBR (counting his rushing) and have the worst 2-3 pass offense".
It's always until next year, at one point are we going to realize it never materializes NEXT year.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2022, 11:17:58 AMGenuinely seems from the portion that i watched that he's trying to find reasons to like him and then does the same thing we do with Jones every freaking season "well, umm... I want him to be more aggressive NEXT year" "you can't be 11th in QBR (counting his rushing) and have the worst 2-3 pass offense".
It's always until next year, at one point are we going to realize it never materializes NEXT year.
Jones has the second worst contribution of WAR from his supporting cast of any QB in the NFL, yet he is one game away from making the playoffs. I am not sure how anyone can say that isn't good enough
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 12:22:58 PMJones has the second worst contribution of WAR from his supporting cast of any QB in the NFL, yet he is one game away from making the playoffs. I am not sure how anyone can say that isn't good enough
The same creator of the WAR have also assigned solid individual ratings to our WRs . So, something seems off, or at least very inconsistent.
I see valid points and concerns on both sides of the Jones argument. I lean toward the positive, as I think he's shown steady improvement and with another year in this offense, with some actual NFL caliber receivers, he'll take another step foward.
That said, the hesitancy to pull the trigger on midlevel throws - slower processing? - is worrisome and something I'm hoping we see develop in that next step forward.
But here's the point I keep coming back to: who could we get that would be a better QB for the NY Giants in 2023? Anyone coming out of the draft would be a project. You want Carr? Jimmy G? You wanna give TOP dollar for Jackson? None of those options appeal to me. I'll take DJ and I trust our GM to make the right deal.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 12:22:58 PMJones has the second worst contribution of WAR from his supporting cast of any QB in the NFL, yet he is one game away from making the playoffs. I am not sure how anyone can say that isn't good enough
To be retained at 30 million, because that's what it'll take to resign him. So you're paying Jones 30 million a year content with the production he has now?
Quote from: kingm56 on December 28, 2022, 12:40:34 PMThe same creator of the WAR have also assigned solid individual ratings to our WRs . So, something seems off, or at least very inconsistent.
I think the issue is too much focus on current WRs and not the entire receiving group through the season
Players- receiving snaps - PFF receiving grade
Shepard- 108 60.1
James- 340 68.2
Johnson- 158 50.7
Sills- 138 59.8
Slayton- 398 71.7
Robinson- 140 70.9
Golladay- 117 50.3
Hodgins- 248 75.4
Myarick- 177 61.6
Bellinger- 267 58.6
Vannett- 53 52.1
Cager- 73 50.5
Hudson- 140 59.8
Brightwell- 31 71.4
Breida- 41 56.6
Barkley- 248 58.4
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2022, 01:02:59 PMTo be retained at 30 million, because that's what it'll take to resign him. So you're paying Jones 30 million a year content with the production he has now?
You would have to project his production with better WRs. Given what we know about the impact of tier 1 WRs on veteran QBs in their prime, I don't believe the projected production increase equates to $30M/yr. However, I also recognize we're unlikely to find a #15 or better QB this year. So. franchise him, draft a wr #1 or 2 and reevaluate next season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 02:03:33 PMI think the issue is too much focus on current WRs and not the entire receiving group through the season
Players- receiving snaps - PFF receiving grade
Shepard- 108 60.1
James- 340 68.2
Johnson- 158 50.7
Sills- 138 59.8
Slayton- 398 71.7
Robinson- 140 70.9
Golladay- 117 50.3
Hodgins- 248 75.4
Myarick- 177 61.6
Bellinger- 267 58.6
Vannett- 53 52.1
Cager- 73 50.5
Hudson- 140 59.8
Brightwell- 31 71.4
Breida- 41 56.6
Barkley- 248 58.4
70s are good; DJ currently has a 74. So, he had 3 good WRs, yet terrible WAR. Something doesn't compute.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 28, 2022, 02:08:24 PM70s are good; DJ currently has a 74. So, he had 3 good WRs, yet terrible WAR. Something doesn't compute.
Why are you ignoring all the receivers with grades in the 50s and 60s? Also, why ignore the TE and RB receiving grades?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 02:11:40 PMWhy are you ignoring all the receivers with grades in the 50s and 60s? Also, why ignore the TE and RB receiving grades?
Most of the guys in the 50s aren't starting... And we all see the balls Jones throws to Barkley, no wonder his PFF is 58.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2022, 02:20:41 PMMost of the guys in the 50s aren't starting... And we all see the balls Jones throws to Barkley, no wonder his PFF is 58.
Yet, when you list stats they are not for just the starters
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2022, 01:02:59 PMTo be retained at 30 million, because that's what it'll take to resign him. So you're paying Jones 30 million a year content with the production he has now?
One, the production will continue to increase and two, as I ask above, what are the alternatives? I sure as hell don't want to start over with a rookie project out of the draft. So for those who want to move on from DJ, who do you see or want as the Giant QB next year?
Quote from: Gman329 on December 28, 2022, 02:27:15 PMOne, the production will continue to increase and two, as I ask above, what are the alternatives? I sure as hell don't want to start over with a rookie project out of the draft. So for those who want to move on from DJ, who do you see or want as the Giant QB next year?
Why would you not want to draft a QB? Should the Giants forever roll with DJ and when his career is over, only acquire QBs via trades and free agency?
Quote from: Gman329 on December 28, 2022, 02:27:15 PMOne, the production will continue to increase and two, as I ask above, what are the alternatives? I sure as hell don't want to start over with a rookie project out of the draft. So for those who want to move on from DJ, who do you see or want as the Giant QB next year?
What do you think that organizations do when a new regime comes in? The Raiders just benched Derek Carr who has been night and day a better Qb than Jones his whole career. Carr, Tannehill, Jimmy G, Wentz they all fail... signing an average starter for big money always fails. I'm perfectly fine with going backwards next year if it means going forward the next 15 years. There are a ton of Qbs that can match Jones' production for one year at a fraction of the cost.
Quote from: Gman329 on December 28, 2022, 01:01:30 PMI see valid points and concerns on both sides of the Jones argument. I lean toward the positive, as I think he's shown steady improvement and with another year in this offense, with some actual NFL caliber receivers, he'll take another step foward.
That said, the hesitancy to pull the trigger on midlevel throws - slower processing? - is worrisome and something I'm hoping we see develop in that next step forward.
But here's the point I keep coming back to: who could we get that would be a better QB for the NY Giants in 2023? Anyone coming out of the draft would be a project. You want Carr? Jimmy G? You wanna give TOP dollar for Jackson? None of those options appeal to me. I'll take DJ and I trust our GM to make the right deal.
Sure adding more talent at WR will help Jones be more productive. But as was the case with an improved offensive line and play-calling improving the receiving talent won't increase the production significantly like some expect it too. It will be another marginal improvement. For me that marginal improvement is only worth so much in terms of annual cap space.
If (key word) the Giants new regime has identified a QB they love in the draft the idea would be that QB has a much higher ceiling than Jones. Sure there will more than likely be growing pains but sometimes you have to take a step back to take a bigger step forward.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 02:21:56 PMYet, when you list stats they are not for just the starters
You're getting upset because our 4th TE and 7th Wr has a 50 pff. Just not sure why you're making such a big deal of players that aren't actively involved in the game..
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2022, 02:35:16 PMYou're getting upset because our 4th TE and 7th Wr has a 50 pff. Just not sure why you're making such a big deal of players that aren't actively involved in the game..
What are you talking about? Players with a 70 or better grade make less than 31% of the snaps. That's a fact. Also, why use words like "upset" and "making such a big deal"? I thought we are talking numbers and analytics
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 02:11:40 PMWhy are you ignoring all the receivers with grades in the 50s and 60s? Also, why ignore the TE and RB receiving grades?
I'm not, but these WRs are no longer starting. I'm focused on the current starters. There are few teams that have 5x 70+ players at all 5 eligible receiver positions. What this tells me is he's stating skill position players are better than average, and those who were injured or not starting are well below average. Why would you factor guys like Sills, KG, and Johnson when they haven't been on the active roster for weeks?
Quote from: kingm56 on December 28, 2022, 03:00:57 PMI'm not, but these WRs are no longer starting. I'm focused on the current starters. There are few teams that have 5x 70+ players at all 5 eligible receiver positions. What this tells me is he's stating skill position players are better than average, and those who were injured or not starting are well below average. Why would you factor guys like Sills, KG, and Johnson when they haven't been on the active roster for weeks?
You should factor them in because you are citing stats generated with their play. The 70+ guys account for less than 31% of the receiving snaps. It explain why PFF grades appear better than the WAR
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 02:45:54 PMWhat are you talking about? Players with a 70 or better grade make less than 31% of the snaps. That's a fact. Also, why use words like "upset" and "making such a big deal"? I thought we are talking numbers and analytics
well since you asked, I used the words because you have a tendency to get emotional about things and then rant on them for 4-5 pages ensuring you get the last word. So instead of having to read the next 4 pages of you getting upset because people weren't taking your 4th and 5th wr pff scores seriously enough I just asked why you were upset.. don't you worry though rich, I won't ever ask about your emotional well being ever again... because your neutral and it's just stats and analytics right?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2022, 03:07:33 PMwell since you asked, I used the words because you have a tendency to get emotional about things and then rant on them for 4-5 pages ensuring you get the last word. So instead of having to read the next 4 pages of you getting upset because people weren't taking your 4th and 5th wr pff scores seriously enough I just asked why you were upset.. don't you worry though rich, I won't ever ask about your emotional well being ever again... because your neutral and it's just stats and analytics right?
So, in other words, failing a reasoned answer, you prefer a rule violating personal attack. I guess that's one way to try and distract from the fatal flaws in your claims. In the end, though, you have failed to explain why you claim Jones has great receiving targets when less than 31% of the receiving snaps were taken by guys with a PFF grade over 70 (which is really just good rather than great).
Jess, your false narratives and petty sniping only serve to diminish the quality of the posts on our forum. Try to do better
PS- it's ironic you claim not to hate Jones, but you sure seem to hate people who don't share your very negative views of Jones
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 03:05:40 PMYou should factor them in because you are citing stats generated with their play. The 70+ guys account for less than 31% of the receiving snaps. It explain why PFF grades appear better than the WAR
No I'm not. You're trying to use this data to perpetuate the narrative DJ is doing this himself. However, the entity who complied the data you're presenting, also states 3 or DJs current 5 starting skill position players are above average. In order for the WAR to work, we have to include players injured several weeks ago, or have been active for limited games. You don't see a problem with any of this? At best, the WAR tells us he stated with substandard help, but it's vastly improved over the last 5 weeks. It also tells us the Giants aren't a deeply talented team., which we already know. What it doesn't say iss DJ starting WRs are terrible; in fact, PFF. and NGS state the opposite. So, if you're asking people to accept the validity of the WAR, than you must also accept the validity of PFF wr rankings.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 28, 2022, 03:24:18 PMNo I'm not. You're trying to use this data to perpetuate the narrative DJ is doing this himself. However, the entity who complied the data you're presenting, also states 4 or DJs current 5 starting skill position players are above average. In order for the WAR to work, we have to include players who have been injured several weeks ago, or haven't been active for weeks. You don't see a problem with any of this? At best, the WAR tells us he stated with substandard help, but it's vastly improved over the last 5 weeks.
Here are Danial Jones' grades for the last 4 games
68.4
78.0
75.8
85.3
Could those better receivers also be part of the reason DJ's PFF grade has improved from his baseline 74.9?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 03:28:55 PMHere are Danial Jones' grades for the last 4 games
68.4
78.0
75.8
85.3
Could those better receivers also be part of the reason DJ's PFF grade has improved from his baseline 74.9?
I was told you don't use PFF grades in a vacuum to judge QB. I was told you use a combination of PFF, RTG and QBR. The latter two suggest an average performance over the last 5 weeks.
If you want me to use just PFF ratings, you just nullified your entire narrative, as according to PFF, DJ is surrounded by ample talent,
Quote from: kingm56 on December 28, 2022, 03:37:34 PMI was told you don't use PFF grades in a vacuum to judge QB. I was told you use a combination of PFF, RTG and QBR. The latter two suggest an average performance over the last 5 weeks.
If you want me to use just PFF ratings, you just nullified your entire narrative, as according to PFF, DJ is surrounded by ample talent, This is the issue you'll continue to face when you start with a conclusion and work backwards...
Over the past 4 games (the same span I used with PFF), Jones' QBR and QB rating exceeded his career average 3 out of the 4 games, just like with his PFF grade. Still, this conversation was specifically about PFF grades for receivers so that is why I used the same measure for Jones (not that it mattered, as I pointed out)
What is with the rest of your post? What is it with the Jones critics? Why are you guys always trying to make it personal?
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 28, 2022, 03:28:55 PMHere are Danial Jones' grades for the last 4 games
68.4
78.0
75.8
85.3
Could those better receivers also be part of the reason DJ's PFF grade has improved from his baseline 74.9?
Wouldn't that mean our WRs aren't bad then and that they are elevating the play of DJ?
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 28, 2022, 04:04:43 PMWouldn't that mean our WRs aren't bad then and that they are elevating the play of DJ?
Considering that Jones is working with 2 low-end free agents and a 5th round pick who took a pay cut to stay with the team, it's far more likely that Jones is elevating the play of the receivers
Quote from: kingm56 on December 28, 2022, 03:37:34 PMI was told you don't use PFF grades in a vacuum to judge QB. I was told you use a combination of PFF, RTG and QBR. The latter two suggest an average performance over the last 5 weeks.
If you want me to use just PFF ratings, you just nullified your entire narrative, as according to PFF, DJ is surrounded by ample talent,
No King you only use PFF grades when they are good for Daniel Jones. If they say he isn't good then you don't look at them in a vacuum. /sarcasm/
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 04:07:55 PMNo King you only use PFF grades when they are good for Daniel Jones. If they say he isn't good then you don't look at them in a vacuum. /sarcasm/
Rambo,
I am curious how this claim is true since both QBR and QB ratings match the PFF grades in that 3 out of 4 of DJ's final games he exceeded his season grades. Please explain
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 28, 2022, 04:04:43 PMWouldn't that mean our WRs aren't bad then and that they are elevating the play of DJ?
Let's look the top 5 offenses
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 28, 2022, 04:04:43 PMWouldn't that mean our WRs aren't bad then and that they are elevating the play of DJ?
Let's look at, IMO, The top 7 passing offenses in the NFL
Bills, KC, Cincy, TB, Minny, Dallas, and SD
Who does James, Hodgins, Slayton, and Bellinger start for?
Quote from: AP44 on December 28, 2022, 04:32:47 PMLet's look the top 5 offenses
Let's look at, IMO, The top 7 passing offenses in the NFL
Bills, KC, Cincy, TB, Minny, Dallas, and SD
Who does James, Hodgins, Slayton, and Bellinger start for?
With the exception of Dallas and Minnesota all of those teams have elite level QB's. Though in Minnesota's case they have a consistently productive QB who has been that throughout his career.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 04:41:26 PMWith the exception of Dallas and Minnesota all of those teams have elite level QB's. Though in Minnesota's case they have a consistently productive QB who has been that throughout his career.
That doesn't answer my question.
Quote from: AP44 on December 28, 2022, 04:47:19 PMThat doesn't answer my question.
To be fair, your reply to my post you quoted, was also completely unrelated to said quoted post
Quote from: AP44 on December 28, 2022, 04:47:19 PMThat doesn't answer my question.
Which one of those teams would Daniel Jones start on?
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 04:51:43 PMWhich one of those teams would Daniel Jones start on?
So you want to have discussions and debates but when someone poses a simple question about WRs - you turn right into a Daniel Jones debate which sidetracks the original question premise.
Sorry bud, tough to take posts like this serious when you refuse to answer a simple question.
Quote from: Rambo89 on December 28, 2022, 04:51:43 PMWhich one of those teams would Daniel Jones start on?
Dallas and the Vikings are realistic. Jones could likely match or exceed the QB production if he was put into those support systems
Giants' Tyrod Taylor impressed by how Daniel Jones has delivered in 'those got-to-have-it moments'
https://www.nj.com/giants/2022/12/giants-tyrod-taylor-impressed-by-how-daniel-jones-has-delivered-in-those-got-to-have-it-moments.html
https://www.nj.com/giants/2022/12/giants-passing-offense-has-picked-up-with-daniel-jones-throwing-to-unlikely-receiving-trio.html
Giants' passing offense has picked up with Daniel Jones throwing to unlikely receiving trio
I was listening to WFAN today and the fill in host (forget his name) had some interesting insight.
He believes Jones should, will and deserves to be resigned and fits the system. But the BIG negative he had and he explained in detail was the "it" factor of leadership is lacking.
Does he show enough true emotion on the sideline or in the huddle that a QB needs to do?....think Brady, Rogers, Burrow, they even pointed out Mike White has the natural leadership style and it pops on screen.
Before you all go crazy and start attacking me here, I'd like you to think about the one or two singular moments this year where Jones showed the "it" factor I am speaking of....and when you think of those moments, ask yourself if you LIKED what you saw??....and then ask yourself "are you seeing "it" enough?".....and if not, why?...and what should that tell us?
For me there were 2 moments that I enjoyed the "it" factor this year:
1. When Jones was in the face of his receiver on the sideline (and unfortunately felt he had to apologize afterwards)...no Daniel you do not. We liked that.
2. After Daboll got in his face on the sideline during a game (I forget which one), Jones took it in stride and he responded positively and was much more vocal.
The point is - Jones has done some good things but is he showing enough of the "it" factor?
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 04:58:07 PMI was listening to WFAN today and the fill in host (forget his name) had some interesting insight.
He believes Jones should, will and deserves to be resigned and fits the system. But the BIG negative he had and he explained in detail was the "it" factor of leadership is lacking.
Does he show enough true emotion on the sideline or in the huddle that a QB needs to do?....think Brady, Rogers, Burrow, they even pointed out Mike White has the natural leadership style and it pops on screen.
Before you all go crazy and start attacking me here, I'd like you to think about the one or two singular moments this year where Jones showed the "it" factor I am speaking of....and when you think of those moments, ask yourself if you LIKED what you saw??....and then ask yourself "are you seeing "it" enough?".....and if not, why?...and what should that tell us?
For me there were 2 moments that I enjoyed the "it" factor this year:
1. When Jones was in the face of his receiver on the sideline (and unfortunately felt he had to apologize afterwards)...no Daniel you do not. We liked that.
2. After Daboll got in his face on the sideline during a game (I forget which one), Jones took it in stride and he responded positively and was much more vocal.
The point is - Jones has done some good things but is he showing enough of the "it" factor?
I am reminded of Eli Manning. Before he won two Super Bowls similar things were said about him. Then after the first SB victory, it went from a bad thing to "EZ Eli" the unflappable.
I am not comparing Jones to Eli as Eli is near HOF. I am saying that it van be hard to discern leadership from what you see on TV.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 29, 2022, 05:14:59 PMI am reminded of Eli Manning. Before he won two Super Bowls similar things were said about him. Then after the first SB victory, it went from a bad thing to "EZ Eli" the unflappable.
I am not comparing Jones to Eli as Eli is near HOF. I am saying that it van be hard to discern leadership from what you see on TV.
So does that mean you are of the opinion Jones has shown enough of the "it" factor to offer him a major contract extension?
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 05:19:53 PMSo does that mean you are of the opinion Jones has shown enough of the "it" factor to offer him a major contract extension?
I think the IT factor is something that can be observed by the team (HC and GM). I am not sure how much we can discern by watching the games on TV. As an aside, I have never heard anyone connected to the team hint that DJ isn't a fine leader.
To directly answer your question, I don't know (for the reasons I just gave).
Some ppl believe you need to be loud and outgoing to be a leader!
It's not the case.
If you listen to his fellow players talk he has their respect! He leads by example. He takes the blame and doesn't deflect to anyone else.
He talks to his players on the sideline.
These are all leadership qualities.
Just cause we don't see him yelling on the field and jawing at players like Rodgers would doesn't mean he is missing the IT factor it just means he doesn't look like an as$ like Rodgers does when he does it.
In todays world DJs approach is probably more leadership quality then the overly outward types
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 29, 2022, 05:25:56 PMI think the IT factor is something that can be observed by the team (HC and GM). I am not sure how much we can discern by watching the games on TV. As an aside, I have never heard anyone connected to the team hint that DJ isn't a fine leader.
To directly answer your question, I don't know (for the reasons I just gave).
Thank you. It appears to me you are in the same camp as me - unsure yet.
If he checks a few more boxes I'm in for a 2 year deal (if he doesn't get greedy) because if he does then he isn't the person I thought he was and he can be sent packing on the first flight out. Leaders lead. Part of that is taking less of a piece for yourself so that others can also engage
I still need to see:
1. Finish string and remain heathy
2. Show us a confident scoring 2 minute drive before halftime
3. Show the emotion that everyone enjoyed
4. Win and get us to the playoffs and let us see u let loose!
5. Win (or out a scare) into someone in the playoff game
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 29, 2022, 05:31:30 PMSome ppl believe you need to be loud and outgoing to be a leader!
It's not the case.
If you listen to his fellow players talk he has their respect! He leads by example. He takes the blame and doesn't deflect to anyone else.
He talks to his players on the sideline.
These are all leadership qualities.
Just cause we don't see him yelling on the field and jawing at players like Rodgers would doesn't mean he is missing the IT factor it just means he doesn't look like an as$ like Rodgers does when he does it.
In todays world DJs approach is probably more leadership quality then the overly outward types
Good points.
I also don't need to see him yell but I wanna see some more. Hold players accountable - go speak to them on sidelines. I don't see enough of that.
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 05:36:43 PMGood points.
I also don't need to see him yell but I wanna see some more. Hold players accountable - go speak to them on sidelines. I don't see enough of that.
Trench
In all fairness when DJ goes to the sidelines what do we see? Unless we have front row behind the giants bench we only see a snap shot in time of what goes on.
If he wasn't a leader and players didn't have his respect think Rosen!
It took his teammates and the team no time at all to let leak out he was't it.
You don't hear that about DJ.
He has his warts. Lack of leadership I don't think it one.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 29, 2022, 05:40:25 PMTrench
In all fairness when DJ goes to the sidelines what do we see? Unless we have front row behind the giants bench we only see a snap shot in time of what goes on.
If he wasn't a leader and players didn't have his respect think Rosen!
It took his teammates and the team no time at all to let leak out he was't it.
You don't hear that about DJ.
He has his warts. Lack of leadership I don't think it one.
Some good points I will dwell on. Some I am not there yet. Many forms of leadership. It's an emotional game and sometimes his posture can elevate others - I sincerely believe this is an area he hasn't grasped yet. When he got emotional this town and particularly this forum was electrified. Disagree or not but when Jones shows emotion, the fans and players DO respond positively is all I'm saying
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 05:45:01 PMSome good points I will dwell on. Some I am not there yet. Many forms of leadership. It's an emotional game and sometimes his posture can elevate others - I sincerely believe this is an area he hasn't grasped yet. When he got emotional this town and particularly this forum was electrified. Disagree or not but when Jones shows emotion, the fans and players DO respond positively is all I'm saying
Most of us are NY/NJ north east people!
We get juiced up easily! We live in a fast paced high energy section of the country.
I fly all over the US for work. Outside of the North East people think I'm flipping nuts with how loud I talk, how I talk with my hands, and the sense of urgency I train and work with. It's a north east thing!
So of course we thrive on that.
Lastly......... he is way more emotional on the field then Eli was and Eli was a leader and had the IT.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 29, 2022, 05:49:18 PMMost of us are NY/NJ north east people!
We get juiced up easily! We live in a fast paced high energy section of the country.
I fly all over the US for work. Outside of the North East people think I'm flipping nuts with how loud I talk, how I talk with my hands, and the sense of urgency I train and work with. It's a north east thing!
So of course we thrive on that.
Lastly......... he is way more emotional on the field then Eli was and Eli was a leader and had the IT.
I think Eli was more emotional on the field for sure
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 05:56:49 PMI think Eli was more emotional on the field for sure
I'd say then go watch some old games:
Eli would throw a TD and raise his hands and walk off the field.
Jones runs and congratulates his player.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 29, 2022, 06:00:17 PMI'd say then go watch some old games:
Eli would throw a TD and raise his hands and walk off the field.
Jones runs and congratulates his player.
Don't need to go watch. I have. I totally disagree Eli didn't run and congratulate players. You are wrong on that!
What I saw Eli do is a lot of back n forth on sidelines. Most of the still shots of Jones are him sitting by himself or watching an iPad
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 06:35:06 PMDon't need to go watch. I have. I totally disagree Eli didn't run and congratulate players. You are wrong on that!
What I saw Eli do is a lot of back n forth on sidelines. Most of the still shots of Jones are him sitting by himself or watching an iPad
Still shots don't tell the whole story.
How do we think Jones will do this Sunday ?
Is this the thread where chaos happened ? I haven't been here in a few
Quote from: killarich on December 29, 2022, 08:03:53 PMHow do we think Jones will do this Sunday ?
Is this the thread where chaos happened ? I haven't been here in a few
It's hard to tell. The Colts have a pretty good defense. DJ has all his weapons, at whatever level that may be. This will be another good test for him.
Quote from: Trench on December 29, 2022, 05:35:08 PMThank you. It appears to me you are in the same camp as me - unsure yet.
If he checks a few more boxes I'm in for a 2 year deal (if he doesn't get greedy) because if he does then he isn't the person I thought he was and he can be sent packing on the first flight out. Leaders lead. Part of that is taking less of a piece for yourself so that others can also engage
I still need to see:
1. Finish string and remain heathy
2. Show us a confident scoring 2 minute drive before halftime
3. Show the emotion that everyone enjoyed
4. Win and get us to the playoffs and let us see u let loose!
5. Win (or out a scare) into someone in the playoff game
There is not much DJ needs to show me. I appreciate that being on the outside looking in, there is so much we don't know that the Giants do. Perhaps the biggest is if the Giants offense is being held back because of the lack of protection and the lack of a number one WR or is it a lack of trust in DJ's abilities?
https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/giants/2022/12/29/daniel-jones-ny-giants-quarterback-nfl-playoffs/69761096007/
'He's making plays he hasn't made before': Inside Daniel Jones' maturation as Giants QB
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 30, 2022, 07:26:52 AMThere is not much DJ needs to show me. I appreciate that being on the outside looking in, there is so much we don't know that the Giants do. Perhaps the biggest is if the Giants offense is being held back because of the lack of protection and the lack of a number one WR or is it a lack of trust in DJ's abilities?
It's a great debate and good problem to have regarding the Oline. I feel they have done a good job and have been balanced in terms of opening holes for RBs and giving Jones time. Not always of course - but a lot better than years past. I think seeing how Jones plays this week and hopefully during a playoff game is going to be telling.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 30, 2022, 10:38:43 AMhttps://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nfl/giants/2022/12/29/daniel-jones-ny-giants-quarterback-nfl-playoffs/69761096007/
'He's making plays he hasn't made before': Inside Daniel Jones' maturation as Giants QB
It's been encouraging the last two games. He's made throwing attempts he hasn't made all season. If they win this game, I'd like to see them cut him loose against Philly.
I like that he says he still has a lot of work to do to improve on certain things particularly when to go for it, check down, throw it away, or to run. It's all positive stuff
So after what could be their first playoff season in forever, you want them to not resign a pair of former top 10 picks, and the two best offensive players they have? Bold take. If they do that, enjoy wasted draft capital replacing them and not
Improving the team anywhere else.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on December 30, 2022, 03:54:05 PMSo after what could be their first playoff season in forever, you want them to not resign a pair of former top 10 picks, and the two best offensive players they have? Bold take. If they do that, enjoy wasted draft capital replacing them and not
Improving the team anywhere else.
Rob,
I think this an important aspect of the team's decisions. After a decade of futility, the Giants finally have a good chance of making the playoffs. If they make the playoffs, it will be a hard sell that they will essentially tear down the playoff team for yet another try at a rebuild
Quote from: brownelvis54 on December 30, 2022, 03:54:05 PMSo after what could be their first playoff season in forever, you want them to not resign a pair of former top 10 picks, and the two best offensive players they have? Bold take. If they do that, enjoy wasted draft capital replacing them and not
Improving the team anywhere else.
Replacing the QB with the production they've gotten out of the passing game this season would not be that difficult. IMO, they can get similar production at less of a cap hit than it would take to bring back Jones and that would just be if this new regime hasn't identified a QB in next season's draft.
On Barkley that would be a bigger hit and might be tougher to replace. But remember with how banged up he's been there is no guarantee he'll give you a repeat season.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on December 30, 2022, 03:54:05 PMSo after what could be their first playoff season in forever, you want them to not resign a pair of former top 10 picks, and the two best offensive players they have? Bold take. If they do that, enjoy wasted draft capital replacing them and not
Improving the team anywhere else.
Or, they could:
- let DJ go,
- tag Barkley (not my preference) or let him go and replace him with a lower cost committee,
- improve the team's roster significantly in 2023 and extend core players and squirrel some CAP space away by rolling it over to use for other upcoming extensions,
- ride with Tyrod for 2023,
- and then draft your QB prospect into a much strengthened team in 2024 where the rookie has a far better chance to be successful than DJ was ever given.
Did some of you forget that it hasn't been like forever or a decade since the Giants made the playoffs? 2016 feels like a long time but its 6 years. Too long but lots of teams haven't made the playoffs in lots more time. And, I still believe that if not for that "outing" by the wide receivers, they could have or maybe should have won at least 1 game.
My thought with regard to Jones here is that this next game is the most important game in his young carer, same for Barkley (and lots of others). If Jones comes up big and the team wins, (and to some extent Barkley), that will go a long way towards answering the Jones critics. If he has a bad game and the team loses what should be a winnable game at home, unless there are extenuating circumstances, the Jones crowd will have some explaining to do. Thats true even if the Giants get in with a win against an Eagles team if they don't play their starters. I'm on the fence about Jones going forward mainly because no one knows what his demands will be but a nice win that he plays a big part in will go a long way towards answering the questions.
Quote from: nb587 on December 30, 2022, 08:21:08 PMDid some of you forget that it hasn't been like forever or a decade since the Giants made the playoffs? 2016 feels like a long time but its 6 years. Too long but lots of teams haven't made the playoffs in lots more time. And, I still believe that if not for that "outing" by the wide receivers, they could have or maybe should have won at least 1 game.
My thought with regard to Jones here is that this next game is the most important game in his young carer, same for Barkley (and lots of others). If Jones comes up big and the team wins, (and to some extent Barkley), that will go a long way towards answering the Jones critics. If he has a bad game and the team loses what should be a winnable game at home, unless there are extenuating circumstances, the Jones crowd will have some explaining to do. Thats true even if the Giants get in with a win against an Eagles team if they don't play their starters. I'm on the fence about Jones going forward mainly because no one knows what his demands will be but a nice win that he plays a big part in will go a long way towards answering the questions.
I went back and forth with Slugs yesterday about this and whether winning a playoff game would change the position on whether to keep Jones. For me it doesn't. One game either way doesn't change what Jones has been and what he is and that is an average Starting QB. He's not awful but he's also not anything special that couldn't be replaced. Sure you could keep him and upgrade the line and receivers but IMO that will result in a marginal improvement in his production that won't justify the cap hit he will command or the additional resources you'll have to put into the supporting cast to prop him up.
But that's just me and I am not completely sure what Schoen, Brown and this new regime is thinking or the direction they want to go in.
I've said they should roll with Tyrod next year
I personally think this is the better move because:
1. $5.5M vs $30M
2. Gives them a chance to build out the roster some more, upgrades, depth, etc between FA, Draft and UDFA. Tyrod would not be playing with this roster, but an upgraded one, with returning pieces having a year in the system, along with a new turf and players coming back from IR
I think Tyrod w/ an upgraded roster will be a more functional and better offense than DJ with this years crop. If I can upgrade without paying $30M, I will. Then in 2024 draft your guy, another FA and draft to add more too. Unless they draft one this year.
Aside from "their guy" I would also try to pickup another QB in the middle or late rounds that has size and physical tools that translate to the NFL w/ coaching, just as Redskins did with RG3 and Cousins that year, never hurts to take another swing at the bat.
Eli would raise his hands and do a small fist pump on hugely important TDs, like the one to Jake Ballard late in the 4th quarter in the regular season game in NE in 2011. He was not a big celebrator on routine TDs, which he obviously had tons of.
The past Giants QB who has a huge celebrator on TDs was Simms, not Eli. Simms went berserk on most of his TD throws (see below):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxdyiMUXzlo&t=1s
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 31, 2022, 10:09:42 AMI've said they should roll with Tyrod next year
I personally think this is the better move because:
1. $5.5M vs $30M
2. Gives them a chance to build out the roster some more, upgrades, depth, etc between FA, Draft and UDFA. Tyrod would not be playing with this roster, but an upgraded one, with returning pieces having a year in the system, along with a new turf and players coming back from IR
I think Tyrod w/ an upgraded roster will be a more functional and better offense than DJ with this years crop. If I can upgrade without paying $30M, I will. Then in 2024 draft your guy, another FA and draft to add more too. Unless they draft one this year.
Aside from "their guy" I would also try to pickup another QB in the middle or late rounds that has size and physical tools that translate to the NFL w/ coaching, just as Redskins did with RG3 and Cousins that year, never hurts to take another swing at the bat.
If there isn't a QB they love in the draft I would let Jones walk and sign someone like Minshew or Brissett for a fraction of the cost rather than just go with Taylor who I think at this point in his career is a solid back up but not someone I would start if I wanted to be competitive in 2023.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 31, 2022, 10:36:59 AMEli would raise his hands and do a small fist pump on hugely important TDs, like the one to Jake Ballard late in the 4th quarter in the regular season game in NE in 2011. He was not a big celebrator on routine TDs, which he obviously had tons of.
The past Giants QB who has a huge celebrator on TDs was Simms, not Eli. Simms went berserk on most of his TD throws (see below):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxdyiMUXzlo&t=1s
Simms is still my favorite Giants QB of all time. He had a heck of an arm and his offense was underrated due to all the attention the defense got. None of the wide receivers who caught to those long bombs got invited to a single pro bowl. He had every right to pump his fists.
Funny, I was just watching the 49-3 blowout against the 49ers in the 86 playoffs and Montana's thing was the to make a V for victory after touchdowns and at the end of the game. I rolled off my sofa when he made his V and then Jerry Rice coughed up the ball on the way to the endzone while being completely untouched.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 31, 2022, 11:20:13 AMSimms is still my favorite Giants QB of all time. He had a heck of an arm and his offense was underrated due to all the attention the defense got. None of the wide receivers who caught to those long bombs got invited to a single pro bowl. He had every right to pump his fists.
Funny, I was just watching the 49-3 blowout against the 49ers in the 86 playoffs and Montana's thing was the to make a V for victory after touchdowns and at the end of the game. I rolled off my sofa when he made his V and then Jerry Rice coughed up the ball on the way to the endzone while being completely untouched.
What a great memory that game is
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 31, 2022, 10:09:42 AMI've said they should roll with Tyrod next year
I personally think this is the better move because:
1. $5.5M vs $30M
2. Gives them a chance to build out the roster some more, upgrades, depth, etc between FA, Draft and UDFA. Tyrod would not be playing with this roster, but an upgraded one, with returning pieces having a year in the system, along with a new turf and players coming back from IR
I think Tyrod w/ an upgraded roster will be a more functional and better offense than DJ with this years crop. If I can upgrade without paying $30M, I will. Then in 2024 draft your guy, another FA and draft to add more too. Unless they draft one this year.
Aside from "their guy" I would also try to pickup another QB in the middle or late rounds that has size and physical tools that translate to the NFL w/ coaching, just as Redskins did with RG3 and Cousins that year, never hurts to take another swing at the bat.
It doesn't even have to be Tyrod but Tyrod plus a minshew or Brisset competing. I'd do everything with my draft picks this year to get more draft picks in 2024. 2024 besides that draft having a ton of Qbs will also be the Free agency where a ton of WRs will be available. So I think stock and load for 2024.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 31, 2022, 11:20:13 AMSimms is still my favorite Giants QB of all time. He had a heck of an arm and his offense was underrated due to all the attention the defense got. None of the wide receivers who caught to those long bombs got invited to a single pro bowl. He had every right to pump his fists.
Funny, I was just watching the 49-3 blowout against the 49ers in the 86 playoffs and Montana's thing was the to make a V for victory after touchdowns and at the end of the game. I rolled off my sofa when he made his V and then Jerry Rice coughed up the ball on the way to the endzone while being completely untouched.
Always wondered how different things would have been, if at all, if Bill Walsh had drafted Simms for the 49ers and the Giants drafted with Parcells. I think Simmms would have been a great QB with the 49er offense and skill people. Would have been interesting to see Montana as a game manager if that's what Parcells wanted him to be.
Quote from: nb587 on December 31, 2022, 01:44:18 PMAlways wondered how different things would have been, if at all, if Bill Walsh had drafted Simms for the 49ers and the Giants drafted with Parcells. I think Simmms would have been a great QB with the 49er offense and skill people. Would have been interesting to see Montana as a game manager if that's what Parcells wanted him to be.
Parcells wasn't with the Giants for the 79 draft. Even if he was George Young had final say.
https://twitter.com/Connor_J_Hughes/status/1609657878637613058
I'm comfortable calling this Daniel Jones' best game ever as a pro. I know there are a few other games (the Saints game last year, the Skins game his rookie year) that are up for debate, but those were early regular season games when the stakes were pretty low. I thought he played a terrific game today in a huge spot. He threw the ball well for the most part with a very respectable YPA, he had zero turnovers, and he ran like a beast. Great stuff. Might have upped the AAV of his next deal by a few million or so today.
https://twitter.com/SNYGiants/status/1609661919010471940
What is with Tyrod Taylor hate? This guy loses his starter job to Herbert—no shame in that — he plays like 7 snaps here and people want to like put him out to pasture.
Can we see this guy play some meaningful games first? He's on contract and one of the highest paid backups in the league.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 01, 2023, 04:22:31 PMI'm comfortable calling this Daniel Jones' best game ever as a pro. I know there are a few other games (the Saints game last year, the Skins game his rookie year) that are up for debate, but those were early regular season games when the stakes were pretty low. I thought he played a terrific game today in a huge spot. He threw the ball well for the most part with a very respectable YPA, he had zero turnovers, and he ran like a beast. Great stuff. Might have upped the AAV of his next deal by a few million or so today.
I disagree with the Saints game. He played well for 8 mins of the 4th and was excellent for OT.
Tonight, he was excellent for a complete game. Couple of early dodgy throws but a minor quibble.
I was really impressed with him tonight. And massively happy for him.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 01, 2023, 04:34:22 PMI disagree with the Saints game. He played well for 8 mins of the 4th and was excellent for OT.
Tonight, he was excellent for a complete game. Couple of early dodgy throws but a minor quibble.
I was really impressed with him tonight. And massively happy for him.
Saints were a very good defense last year and a decent team overall, plus the Giants were playing in the Superdome. The Colts are awful and Jones had this performance at home. I feel better about this win (though mostly because of the playoff implications), but honestly could go either way.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 01, 2023, 04:39:57 PMSaints were a very good defense last year and a decent team overall, plus the Giants were playing in the Superdome. The Colts are awful and Jones had this performance at home. I feel better about this win (though mostly because of the playoff implications), but honestly could go either way.
That was my thinking as well. Ed is correct that the Saints game wasn't four quarters of perfection, but one way or the other he did end up with over 400 passing yards in that game (177 today), he had a superb 10.1 YPA, and that was a game the Giants were expected to lose. It was in a hostile environment against a good defense. The stakes were higher today obviously, but they were 0-2 going into that game and were desperate for a win. Today was a game nobody expected the Giants to lose.
Again I am comfortable calling today Jones' best game, but I do think the Saints game last year is in the conversation. The Washington game his rookie year has to get consideration too, but that was a bit like today - home game against an awful team that kind of rolled over. The stakes were much lower in that game too.
https://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1609667597800247299
I think it's time to realize Jones will be our QB because he's much better than the average to below average backups in the league.
Quote from: AP44 on January 01, 2023, 05:33:11 PMI think it's time to realize Jones will be our QB because he's much better than the average to below average backups in the league.
I think that conclusion was reached by 95% of the board several weeks ago. Jones is above average and the Giants relative draft position will prevent them from getting thier guy. The only thing left to discuss is the aperture the Giants' will use to retain his services. I continue to advocate for the Franchise tag...
Quote from: kingm56 on January 01, 2023, 05:56:49 PMI think that conclusion was reached by 95% of the board several weeks ago. Jones is above average and the Giants relative draft position will prevent them from getting thier guy. The only thing left to discuss is the aperture the Giants' will use to retain his services. I continue to advocate for the Franchise tag...
Yeah it's all about the money and after the recent contract disasters I think people will be gun shy 3yr 120 is a lot
Time to admit.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 01, 2023, 06:32:37 PMTime to admit.
Because he beat a team he was supposed to beat? Don't get me wrong He played really well but to act like he's the future for the next 5 to 10 years is a completely different story.
Erasing the past 4 years in 2 games one of which we lost just isn't possible. Plus people that like Jones and people that aren't fond him are all basically on the same page at this point, we'd love to have you back but... and that but is typically 2 year with reasonable money.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d7/0f/Rj2m7EPf_o.jpg)
FULL.BLOOM.LOVE. :ok: :laugh: =))
This isn't a time for told ya so people!
Don't get ahead of your skis or you will fall face first!
DJ had a great game against a bad team!
No one knows what JS wants, what DJ wants and there is a lot that goes in between.
So instead of gloating falsely and banging your chest, enjoy the win and let's keep looking forward TOGETHER
I don't see the gloating. It's a picture of a coach clearly happy with his QB.
Quote from: T200 on January 01, 2023, 07:53:55 PMI don't see the gloating. It's a picture of a coach clearly happy with his QB.
=D>
https://twitter.com/Connor_J_Hughes/status/1609721317477031938
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 01, 2023, 07:34:37 PMThis isn't a time for told ya so people!
Don't get ahead of your skis or you will fall face first!
DJ had a great game against a bad team!
No one knows what JS wants, what DJ wants and there is a lot that goes in between.
So instead of gloating falsely and banging your chest, enjoy the win and let's keep looking forward TOGETHER
I dont see any gloating
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 01, 2023, 08:30:34 PMI dont see any gloating
You put up a DJ Apology form after he beat a bad team with no QB, no head coach, and 2 of their star players on offense and defense out. Just saying.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 01, 2023, 08:47:12 PMYou put up a DJ Apology form after he beat a bad team with no QB, no head coach, and 2 of their star players on offense and defense out. Just saying.
True Jess, but to be fair...I put in the ALL JONES THREAD. And looking at our star players " Galloway" Shep and Robinson are out too. Jones deserves a contract extension
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 01, 2023, 06:47:25 PMBecause he beat a team he was supposed to beat? Don't get me wrong He played really well but to act like he's the future for the next 5 to 10 years is a completely different story.
Erasing the past 4 years in 2 games one of which we lost just isn't possible. Plus people that like Jones and people that aren't fond him are all basically on the same page at this point, we'd love to have you back but... and that but is typically 2 year with reasonable money.
Good teams beat bad teams...thats what they are supposed to do. And of course the Jones haters are going to say " but its the Colts" Well look what thety did last week to Hebert and the Chargers. No TDs and an INT by Herbert, But again its Jones... Yeah I get it
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 01, 2023, 09:14:13 PMGood teams beat bad teams...thats what they are supposed to do. And of course the Jones haters are going to say " but its the Colts" Well look what thety did last week to Hebert and the Chargers. No TDs and an INT by Herbert, But again its Jones... Yeah I get it
What are you talking about? First of all after all the banning and the multiple threads about civil discourse A) posting a picture of an Apology form and B) classifying people as haters is a bold move.. when if you actually read the forum you post in we are pretty much all in agreement he should be resigned
at the right price, we've all said that the past few days. It just happens that you and other fans only come around when we win, only post when things are going well.
So I'm not sure what you gloating has to do with Herbert, or whatever you were trying to say.. look back at the game thread, look back at my post today did I say Jones had a bad day Brown? Did I? No I said he had a good game which he did... but to act like he's the next coming of Patrick mahomes and start passing apology forms out because he had a good game is absurd and you're just baiting people at that point.
When Jones has had bad games, because he has this season has anyone came in here the same day and dogged Jones or put faces of free agent QBs on a form? No they haven't because when he has a bad game the team has a bad game. One Good game, just like one bad game does not make a career. So maybe go back and look at the conversation for the past two days before you call people haters. But you love daniel Jones so I guess you get that luxury. Just because I don't want to pay him 40 million a year doesn't mean I hate him, I just love the team more.
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 01, 2023, 07:34:37 PMThis isn't a time for told ya so people!
Don't get ahead of your skis or you will fall face first!
DJ had a great game against a bad team!
No one knows what JS wants, what DJ wants and there is a lot that goes in between.
So instead of gloating falsely and banging your chest, enjoy the win and let's keep looking forward TOGETHER
I agree. I support DJ but I want to see how he does the next two weeks especially in the playoffs which most likely will be the 49ers. The Niners will be a good litmus test of how deep we can make a run in the playoffs especially against that stout and stingy defense.
Does he have another gear that he can elevate his play and as well as put the team on his back when the game is on the line - just like Eli.
What kind of progression can he make in the offseason year 2 under Dabes/Kafka's system with possibly better WRs. We need to draft a stud WR and hopefully with Hodgins, a healthy Robinson, Bellinger to see how we expand the passing game next season. Hopefully the line - particularly the pass blocking gets better.
*CORRECTION*
Just saw the standings - there may be a good chance we face the Vikings again. I like our chances against them.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 01, 2023, 09:33:10 PMWhat are you talking about? First of all after all the banning and the multiple threads about civil discourse A) posting a picture of an Apology form and B) classifying people as haters is a bold move.. when if you actually read the forum you post in we are pretty much all in agreement he should be resigned at the right price, we've all said that the past few days. It just happens that you and other fans only come around when we win, only post when things are going well.
So I'm not sure what you gloating has to do with Herbert, or whatever you were trying to say.. look back at the game thread, look back at my post today did I say Jones had a bad day Brown? Did I? No I said he had a good game which he did... but to act like he's the next coming of Patrick mahomes and start passing apology forms out because he had a good game is absurd and you're just baiting people at that point.
When Jones has had bad games, because he has this season has anyone came in here the same day and dogged Jones or put faces of free agent QBs on a form? No they haven't because when he has a bad game the team has a bad game. One Good game, just like one bad game does not make a career. So maybe go back and look at the conversation for the past two days before you call people haters. But you love daniel Jones so I guess you get that luxury. Just because I don't want to pay him 40 million a year doesn't mean I hate him, I just love the team more.
DJ has elevated this offense, he's never had good coaching, or stability. A lot of people don't see the big picture to DJs career. I give DJ props in his first year with new staff and offense.
Quote from: T200 on January 01, 2023, 07:53:55 PMI don't see the gloating. It's a picture of a coach clearly happy with his QB.
The brown Elvis post wasn't gloating? 🤦🏻🤷🏻�♂️
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 02, 2023, 12:35:49 AMThe brown Elvis post wasn't gloating? 🤦🏻🤷🏻�♂️
Is it gloating because of who posted it?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Flb7fJgXkKEIvx9?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://twitter.com/GPOGiants1999/status/1609750435358818307
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2023, 01:04:41 AMIs it gloating because of who posted it?
No.
I've got zero issue with Elvis and I don't think we have ever locked horns.
Gloating is gloating
Also let's remember I'm not for or against the signing of DJ. I'm in camp entrust JS to make the right decision for us right now.
I will go on record saying that was a top 2-3 game of his career.
Barkley did not get alot going, and he made some nice throws.
While my opinion and the concerns that come with it has not changed, I was impressed by his play yesterday
At the end of the day, I just want to win and they did that. I did not want to sneak it, if they were gonna get in, I wanted them to clinch convincingly and make a statement. Let's see what happens
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 02, 2023, 08:06:13 AMNo.
I've got zero issue with Elvis and I don't think we have ever locked horns.
Gloating is gloating
Also let's remember I'm not for or against the signing of DJ. I'm in camp entrust JS to make the right decision for us right now.
I also never had an issue with him, I have also disengaged a bit as a whole. But that apology form was posted in multiple topics, it clearly is trying to antagonize anyone against resigning Jones and trying to start new arguments after they seem to finally calm down for a bit
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 02, 2023, 08:06:13 AMNo.
I've got zero issue with Elvis and I don't think we have ever locked horns.
Gloating is gloating
Also let's remember I'm not for or against the signing of DJ. I'm in camp entrust JS to make the right decision for us right now.
I think there's some snark in it but I don't see it as gloating. You're a pretty witty and sharp guy, and we both appreciate a little snark. I wouldn't consider it gloating if you had posted it first.
For those down playing DJ's performance yesterday because it was against the Colts
Let us compare Justin Herbert's performance against those same Colts 6 days prior
player >>> Herbert >>> Jomes
Att/comp > 24/31 >> 19/24
Yds >>> 235 >>> 174
Avg >>> 7.8 >>> 7.4
TD >>> 0 >>> 2
INT >>> 1 >>> 0
QBR >>> 33.0 >>> 96.9
Rat >>> 84.7 >>> 125.2
Rush >>> 1.0 >>> 91
RTD >>> 0 >>> 2
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2023, 07:50:59 AM(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Flb7fJgXkKEIvx9?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://twitter.com/GPOGiants1999/status/1609750435358818307
I'll be interested to see Jones' PFF grade. As I said yesterday, I am comfortable calling this the best game of his career, although I think last year's Saints game and the Skins game his rookie year are in the conversation. The Saints game last year he threw for over 400 yards with a better than 10 YPA against a legit defense on the road. Yesterday I felt he was more complete though, and the stakes were higher (albeit the numbers were less and the opponent was much weaker). I'll be curious to see just how high PFF grades him. If possible, I'd love to know how that compares to the other two games I mentioned.
Posting that in numerous threads can be seen as nothing but antagonistic.
Now back to important stuff. Do we think Jones has a chance to be Player of the Week?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2023, 08:40:05 AMFor those down playing DJ's performance yesterday because it was against the Colts
Let us compare Justin Herbert's performance against those same Colts 6 days prior
player >>> Herbert >>> Jomes
Att/comp > 24/31 >> 19/24
Yds >>> 235 >>> 174
Avg >>> 7.8 >>> 7.4
TD >>> 0 >>> 2
INT >>> 1 >>> 0
QBR >>> 33.0 >>> 96.9
Rat >>> 84.7 >>> 125.2
Rush >>> 1.0 >>> 91
RTD >>> 0 >>> 2
I don't put much stock into these comparisons because it's not tennis where they are directly competing against each other.
Their offenses are different and match up differently against the Chargers defense.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 02, 2023, 08:42:33 AMI'll be interested to see Jones' PFF grade. As I said yesterday, I am comfortable calling this the best game of his career, although I think last year's Saints game and the Skins game his rookie year are in the conversation. The Saints game last year he threw for over 400 yards with a better than 10 YPA against a legit defense on the road. Yesterday I felt he was more complete though, and the stakes were higher (albeit the numbers were less and the opponent was much weaker). I'll be curious to see just how high PFF grades him. If possible, I'd love to know how that compares to the other two games I mentioned.
I absolutely believe that was the best Jones has played in his career and although the passing yards weren't there, he took this team on his back and was the key component in the Offense. It wasn't flashy but it was exceptional.
Looking at that list, it's worth noting how many times Patrick Mahomes is up there. That's also exceptional. Same with the Rookie and backup QB's.
https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1609910865830060034
2 things I've stated plenty times here in the past:
1. If the team wins the QB gets the credit
2. "Just Win Baby" is the most important statistic we should use to gauge #8.
Still some boxes to be checked for me in terms of long term commitment and hopefully we will have those answers late January. But one thing is certain,
He deserves and has earned the right to enjoy every minute of this
Wild if this reporter knows what he is talking about....
But Daboll also knew this: He needed to test Jones' mental toughness.
So, when training camp began, he devised a plan. As one source close to the coach explained, Daboll purposely structured practice for Jones to fail and Taylor to succeed.
"He wanted Daniel Jones to deal with the adversity," this source explained. "He wanted to see how he dealt with it on a daily basis. And he passed it with flying colors. So, I know he loves Daniel Jones.
"He loves Daniel Jones. He loves him."
Practices are always scripted. Daboll would tell defensive coordinator Don "Wink" Martindale which plays he'd be running when Jones was in the game, this source explains, and had Martindale call defensive plays that'd intentionally work. And when Taylor entered? Exact opposite. Plays were scripted on both sides to set him up for success.
Jones did not flinch. Daboll was thrilled.
https://www.golongtd.com/p/is-daniel-jones-the-future
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 02, 2023, 10:05:46 AMI absolutely believe that was the best Jones has played in his career and although the passing yards weren't there, he took this team on his back and was the key component in the Offense. It wasn't flashy but it was exceptional.
Looking at that list, it's worth noting how many times Patrick Mahomes is up there. That's also exceptional. Same with the Rookie and backup QB's.
The way he looked in command of the offense was a thing of beauty. Very little panicked made many great plays on script AND (perhaps more importantly) off script as well. Love the two TDs passes in consecutive weeks we he is flushed out, doesnt panic, rolls to his right toward the line of scrimmage and then straddles it with guys bearing down on him and then calmly finds the open reciever for a TD in the EZ.
I must admit that two of the players I doubted most, have done the most to prove me wrong this season.
The first is, you guessed it, Daniel Jones. I initially had high hopes for him, perhaps unreasonably high. How much of it was him and how much of it was poor coaching will be debated endlessly, but the bottom line is he was not putting the team on his back like we needed him to.
This year is different. Daniel is growing into the role. He's felt pressure coming, cut down on the turnovers, and helped us win when opponents shut down the run. Those are the biggest issues I had with him, and he's addressed all three.
The second player is Kayvon Thibodeaux. I thought he had bust written all over him, and said so. He's made me eat those words. The stats don't tell the story because he gets held constantly, but the guy is beasting. Seeing him live is downright scary; he seems to tower over everyone else on the field.
I would much rather see us win and be proven wrong than lose even more and be proven right. Another helping of crow, please! :notworthy:
Quote from: y_so_blu on January 02, 2023, 03:23:06 PMI must admit that two of the players I doubted most, have done the most to prove me wrong this season.
The first is, you guessed it, Daniel Jones. I initially had high hopes for him, perhaps unreasonably high. How much of it was him and how much of it was poor coaching will be debated endlessly, but the bottom line is he was not putting the team on his back like we needed him to.
This year is different. Daniel is growing into the role. He's felt pressure coming, cut down on the turnovers, and helped us win when opponents shut down the run. Those are the biggest issues I had with him, and he's addressed all three.
The second player is Kayvon Thibodeaux. I thought he had bust written all over him, and said so. He's made me eat those words. The stats don't tell the story because he gets held constantly, but the guy is beasting. Seeing him live is downright scary; he seems to tower over everyone else on the field.
I would much rather see us win and be proven wrong than lose even more and be proven right. Another helping of crow, please! :notworthy:
You are not alone there are a number of us eating crow this year and I got no issues with it!
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 02, 2023, 03:46:49 PMYou are not alone there are a number of us eating crow this year and I got no issues with it!
Like I said in a different post, I'm on the fence as to if he's a franchise guy but would certainly bring him back if the price is right. This could all change based on what I see in the playoffs (yes just one or 2 games in the big stage will be enough for me).
As for Thibs I also eat crow on that one. He has really shined. 1st 3/4 of season i wasn't overly impressed (same as our rookie Tackle) Neal who needs to show more. But last halt to 1/4 of season Thibs has been big. I do sincerely believe he has the prototypical body and speed moves where if he develops a spin move then lookout!
I said from day one - just win Danny and if you do then I'm in.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 02, 2023, 01:57:34 PMWild if this reporter knows what he is talking about....
But Daboll also knew this: He needed to test Jones' mental toughness.
So, when training camp began, he devised a plan. As one source close to the coach explained, Daboll purposely structured practice for Jones to fail and Taylor to succeed.
"He wanted Daniel Jones to deal with the adversity," this source explained. "He wanted to see how he dealt with it on a daily basis. And he passed it with flying colors. So, I know he loves Daniel Jones.
"He loves Daniel Jones. He loves him."
Practices are always scripted. Daboll would tell defensive coordinator Don "Wink" Martindale which plays he'd be running when Jones was in the game, this source explains, and had Martindale call defensive plays that'd intentionally work. And when Taylor entered? Exact opposite. Plays were scripted on both sides to set him up for success.
Jones did not flinch. Daboll was thrilled.
https://www.golongtd.com/p/is-daniel-jones-the-future
I heard Bob Papa and Carl Banks discuss this same thing. Said the defense knew the play before it was run and every time the play didn't work DJ would walk over to the coaches and ask what he did wrong and what did he have to do to fix it. He never got mad, never lost his composer and always remained consistent with just working to get better.
Bill
Quote from: y_so_blu on January 02, 2023, 03:23:06 PMI must admit that two of the players I doubted most, have done the most to prove me wrong this season.
The first is, you guessed it, Daniel Jones. I initially had high hopes for him, perhaps unreasonably high. How much of it was him and how much of it was poor coaching will be debated endlessly, but the bottom line is he was not putting the team on his back like we needed him to.
This year is different. Daniel is growing into the role. He's felt pressure coming, cut down on the turnovers, and helped us win when opponents shut down the run. Those are the biggest issues I had with him, and he's addressed all three.
The second player is Kayvon Thibodeaux. I thought he had bust written all over him, and said so. He's made me eat those words. The stats don't tell the story because he gets held constantly, but the guy is beasting. Seeing him live is downright scary; he seems to tower over everyone else on the field.
I would much rather see us win and be proven wrong than lose even more and be proven right. Another helping of crow, please! :notworthy:
Wonderfully put good Sir...
Quote from: ps11yat14 on January 02, 2023, 04:32:47 PMI heard Bob Papa and Carl Banks discuss this same thing. Said the defense knew the play before it was run and every time the play didn't work DJ would walk over to the coaches and ask what he did wrong and what did he have to do to fix it. He never got mad, never lost his composer and always remained consistent with just working to get better.
Bill
Wow #8 is a player that I think is going to have almost evry fan on the bandwagon before too much longer. DG made a lot of mistakes granted but picks 2, 4 and 6 were not among them. He nailed those.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 02, 2023, 08:09:41 PMWow #8 is a player that I think is going to have almost evry fan on the bandwagon before too much longer. DG made a lot of mistakes granted but picks 2, 4 and 6 were not among them. He nailed those.
In all fairness if he had nailed them you wouldn't have 100's pages of discussion and probably a 100 more pages of deleted discussion on whether to keep them or not.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 02, 2023, 01:57:34 PMWild if this reporter knows what he is talking about....
But Daboll also knew this: He needed to test Jones' mental toughness.
So, when training camp began, he devised a plan. As one source close to the coach explained, Daboll purposely structured practice for Jones to fail and Taylor to succeed.
"He wanted Daniel Jones to deal with the adversity," this source explained. "He wanted to see how he dealt with it on a daily basis. And he passed it with flying colors. So, I know he loves Daniel Jones.
"He loves Daniel Jones. He loves him."
Practices are always scripted. Daboll would tell defensive coordinator Don "Wink" Martindale which plays he'd be running when Jones was in the game, this source explains, and had Martindale call defensive plays that'd intentionally work. And when Taylor entered? Exact opposite. Plays were scripted on both sides to set him up for success.
Jones did not flinch. Daboll was thrilled.
https://www.golongtd.com/p/is-daniel-jones-the-future
Quote from: ps11yat14 on January 02, 2023, 04:32:47 PMI heard Bob Papa and Carl Banks discuss this same thing. Said the defense knew the play before it was run and every time the play didn't work DJ would walk over to the coaches and ask what he did wrong and what did he have to do to fix it. He never got mad, never lost his composer and always remained consistent with just working to get better.
Bill
As Eli was riding towards the sunset, all of us were probably looking for a QB that had similar type of composure and character treats. That's the type of QB I see leading the Giants' team.
I don't see a bold or eccentric type of QB leading the Giants.
And when I read this, that's exactly what I would be wanting as a QB.
Re Daboll loving Jones; I think his reaction after the second run TD by Jones says it all - he was thrilled about it at the sidelines.
Do I want to keep Jones? Yes. I think he's done everything he needed to earn himself a new contract.
If I look at the QB's that will hit FA after the season, I think he's second to Brady and Jackson only (yes, I think he's better than Garoppolo - has more potential and upside for sure).
Stars: Tom Brady (Tampa Bay Buccaneers), Lamar Jackson (Baltimore Ravens)
Starters: Geno Smith (Seattle Seahawks), Daniel Jones (New York Giants), Jimmy Garoppolo (San Francisco 49ers), Andy Dalton (New Orleans Saints), Jacoby Brissett (Cleveland Browns), Taylor Heinicke (Washington Commanders), P.J. Walker (Carolina Panthers)
Backups who have started: Teddy Bridgewater (Miami Dolphins), Baker Mayfield (Carolina Panthers), Sam Darnold (Carolina Panthers), Joe Flacco (New York Jets), Drew Lock (Seattle Seahawks), Gardner Minshew (Philadelphia Eagles)
Backups who have filled in: Cooper Rush (Dallas Cowboys), Tyler Huntley (Baltimore Ravens), Mike White (New York Jets), Brett Rypien (Denver Broncos)
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 02, 2023, 01:57:34 PMWild if this reporter knows what he is talking about....
But Daboll also knew this: He needed to test Jones' mental toughness.
So, when training camp began, he devised a plan. As one source close to the coach explained, Daboll purposely structured practice for Jones to fail and Taylor to succeed.
"He wanted Daniel Jones to deal with the adversity," this source explained. "He wanted to see how he dealt with it on a daily basis. And he passed it with flying colors. So, I know he loves Daniel Jones.
"He loves Daniel Jones. He loves him."
Practices are always scripted. Daboll would tell defensive coordinator Don "Wink" Martindale which plays he'd be running when Jones was in the game, this source explains, and had Martindale call defensive plays that'd intentionally work. And when Taylor entered? Exact opposite. Plays were scripted on both sides to set him up for success.
Jones did not flinch. Daboll was thrilled.
https://www.golongtd.com/p/is-daniel-jones-the-future
Banks mentions it in their segment about what they were doing during training camp to test the mental make up of DJ. It's around the 16 minute mark.
He's become more comfortable and looked more in command of the offense compared to week 1. With a year under his belt and possibly an upgrade in talent in offseason to grow more rapport with the WRs staying - if the Giants do keep Jones, I can see them opening up more the passing game and with progression from the young guys in the oline, possibly take more shots down the field.
https://youtu.be/kX3li-BPakk
Jordan Raanan- DJ debate is over after Giants clinch playoffs
This Giants' new regime was always a fan of Jones. They liked his physical skills and makeup. But they still needed him to prove it on the field in order for them to want to commit to anything in the future. A team source said this summer they would have been open to an in-season extension or the franchise tag if he played well this year. The latter now realistically seems on the table.
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/64194/the-daniel-jones-debate-is-over-after-giants-clinch-playoffs
Not sure if it's posted around here, a good breakdown of the Giants offense
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1meJvExzaVSN6lbKhUsWqF?si=AxmSR6S9Q1uvWLVL9QC08Q&t=2460
It's around the 41 minute mark
The Truth about Daniel Jones...as NY Giants QB
Click watch on you tube
https://youtu.be/DkO62rSA1LU
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 03, 2023, 07:02:43 PMJordan Raanan- DJ debate is over after Giants clinch playoffs
This Giants' new regime was always a fan of Jones. They liked his physical skills and makeup. But they still needed him to prove it on the field in order for them to want to commit to anything in the future. A team source said this summer they would have been open to an in-season extension or the franchise tag if he played well this year. The latter now realistically seems on the table.
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/64194/the-daniel-jones-debate-is-over-after-giants-clinch-playoffs
About 4 years after the 2019 draft, we all can argue that the Giants walked away with the best QB in that draft class.
Not for nothing, but I can see Gettleman with a smile on his face saying to the naysayers, I told you so.
Quote from: GMenRF on January 03, 2023, 07:34:36 PMAbout 4 years after the 2019 draft, we all can argue that the Giants walked away with the best QB in that draft class.
Not for nothing, but I can see Gettleman with a smile on his face saying to the naysayers, I told you so.
He can't say it till Jones holds the trophy high
DANIEL JONES HAS EMERGED, AGAINST ALL ODDS, AS THE GIANTS' FRANCHISE QB
1 DAY AGO
Ralph Vacchiano
NFC EAST REPORTER
QuoteThere's still the difficult work of negotiation, but it's been clear for a while now that Jones is the Giants' guy, that they want to lock him up to a long-term contract and give him the keys to the franchise. They are now sure he's a quarterback they can win with if they can ever put a decent team around him. Saquon Barkley has been fantastic and Andrew Thomas has emerged as an anchor at left tackle, but considering the dearth of wide receiver talent on the roster, Jones has been their MVP all season long.
These Giants wouldn't have been anywhere near their first playoff berth since 2016 if it wasn't for the play of Daniel Jones.
"Just happy for him," Mara told reporters after the Giants clinched a playoff berth with a 38-10 win over the Colts — his team's biggest win in six years. "You draft him as high as we drafted him, we got a lot of criticism. He took a lot of criticism. And to see him coming into his own is very gratifying for us."
It should be, just like somewhere up in Cape Cod, Mass., former Giants GM Dave Gettleman is surely feeling gratified too. He's the one who was all-in on Jones as the successor to Eli Manning back in 2019. He's the one whose neck was on the line when he stunned many around the NFL by drafting Jones sixth overall.
More at the link
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/daniel-jones-has-emerged-against-all-odds-as-the-giants-franchise-qb
Quote from: GMenRF on January 03, 2023, 07:34:36 PMAbout 4 years after the 2019 draft, we all can argue that the Giants walked away with the best QB in that draft class.
Not for nothing, but I can see Gettleman with a smile on his face saying to the naysayers, I told you so.
I picture a guy losing over 6 figures in a casino and on his way out the door, he takes his last 20 and puts in in a slot and hits for 10 grand. :doh:
Quote from: T200 on January 03, 2023, 09:35:22 PMI picture a guy losing over 6 figures in a casino and on his way out the door, he takes his last 20 and puts in in a slot and hits for 10 grand. :doh:
Perfect analogy
Quote from: GMenRF on January 03, 2023, 10:20:46 PMPerfect analogy
Took the words right out of my mouth (eeeew).
I always like to give both sides of the story. Here is Geoff Schwartz arguing that the Giants can't win a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones (with Carton arguing for Jones)
https://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1610672802184544257
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 04, 2023, 11:25:15 AMhttps://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1610672802184544257
https://twitter.com/art_stapleton/status/1609926226054873088
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 04, 2023, 11:25:15 AMhttps://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1610672802184544257
Last year the Giants were dead last, 32nd, in red zone scoring at 44.74%.
This year the Giants are 7th in the league at 63.83%.
Hi, I don't know if anyone has seen these updated stats for DJ, but I thought I'd share them here.
- Jones' 92.5 passer rating is a career high, his current mark would rank seventh in team history, and it is the highest since Eli Manning's 93.6 rating in 2015.
- If Jones maintains his 67.2 completion percentage through the Giants' season finale Sunday in Philadelphia, he will establish a franchise single-season record for qualifying quarterbacks. Manning holds the current mark with at 66.0% in 2018.
- Jones' five-highest single-game completion percentages have all been this season, including a career-best 85.0 in the victory at Tennessee on Sept. 11. His 79.2 percentage against the Colts is the third highest of his career.
- Jones has a 1.06 interception percentage this season (five picks in 472 passes). No Giants quarterback has ever thrown so many passes with so few interceptions. The lowest ever INT percentage in a season by a qualifying Giants quarterback is 1.29 by Phil Simms in 1990 (four picks in 311 attempts).
- Jones has started all 16 games this season and he did not throw an interception in 12 of them. That is the highest number of starts without throwing a pick in the NFL this season. No other quarterback has more than 10.
- Jones has thrown for 3,205 yards with a 67.2 completion percentage and has rushed for 708 yards. He can become the fourth quarterback in NFL history – and one of two this year – with a 3,200-yard, 65%, 700-yard season.
If you'd like to see more of his stats, you can find them posted at Giants.com
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 04, 2023, 06:32:32 PMHi, I don't know if anyone has seen these updated stats for DJ, but I thought I'd share them here.
- Jones' 92.5 passer rating is a career high, his current mark would rank seventh in team history, and it is the highest since Eli Manning's 93.6 rating in 2015.
- If Jones maintains his 67.2 completion percentage through the Giants' season finale Sunday in Philadelphia, he will establish a franchise single-season record for qualifying quarterbacks. Manning holds the current mark with at 66.0% in 2018.
- Jones' five-highest single-game completion percentages have all been this season, including a career-best 85.0 in the victory at Tennessee on Sept. 11. His 79.2 percentage against the Colts is the third highest of his career.
- Jones has a 1.06 interception percentage this season (five picks in 472 passes). No Giants quarterback has ever thrown so many passes with so few interceptions. The lowest ever INT percentage in a season by a qualifying Giants quarterback is 1.29 by Phil Simms in 1990 (four picks in 311 attempts).
- Jones has started all 16 games this season and he did not throw an interception in 12 of them. That is the highest number of starts without throwing a pick in the NFL this season. No other quarterback has more than 10.
- Jones has thrown for 3,205 yards with a 67.2 completion percentage and has rushed for 708 yards. He can become the fourth quarterback in NFL history – and one of two this year – with a 3,200-yard, 65%, 700-yard season.
If you'd like to see more of his stats, you can find them posted at Giants.com
That's great. Good job.
Now....
Just win baby.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 04, 2023, 08:12:53 AMI always like to give both sides of the story. Here is Geoff Schwartz arguing that the Giants can't win a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones (with Carton arguing for Jones)
Regardless of where one stands on this subject, it is hard to argue that Carton made a coherent argument at any time he was speaking in this video.
With that said, he is like that on just about every subject which, combined with his obnoxious delivery, makes him painful and basically impossible to listen to in my opinion.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 04, 2023, 08:08:06 PMRegardless of where one stands on this subject, it is hard to argue that Carton made a coherent argument at any time he was speaking in this video.
With that said, he is like that on just about every subject which, combined with his obnoxious delivery, makes him painful and basically impossible to listen to in my opinion.
I disagree with a lot of what Carton said regarding Eli. He was good a lot more than 2 seasons and he didn't even bring up his record when the game was on the line in 4th quarter. Schwartz made a good point also - how long can u wait for the supporting cast to assemble?....this is exactly where we will see if Jones is selfish or all about team where he takes a responsible contract.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 04, 2023, 12:22:34 PMLast year the Giants were dead last, 32nd, in red zone scoring at 44.74%.
This year the Giants are 7th in the league at 63.83%.
Coaching, coaching, coaching.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 04, 2023, 10:29:26 PMCoaching, coaching, coaching.
I wouldn't say it's all coaching. The players have done an excellent job with execution in the red zone. They deserve the lion's share of the credit.
I posted this article as it's own thread but there is some DJ specific points in here.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2023/1/3/23536296/how-did-the-giants-engineer-surprising-turnaround-brian-daboll-joe-schoen-daniel-jones
......... Daboll on Monday told a great story about building both his relationship with quarterback Daniel Jones — and the Giants' offense — that illustrates the point.
"I spent a lot of time with Daniel to try to get to know him and him to know me," Daboll said. "He'd come over to the house, and I just remember at the end of training camp, we're sitting there. And I'm outside by the pool smoking a cigar, and the whole table has about three years' worth of different playbooks as we're going through training camp. I'm saying, 'Tell me if you like any of these.' You're making sure that 'You know what, this guy cares about what I think. He cares how I see the game.' I think that's important for a quarterback."
I know it's been mentioned, I've said it, but this story emphasizes it. This playbook was created specifically for DJ.
Nothing has been as important as the work the Giants have done with Jones.
Jones' first three seasons with the Giants were a disaster. There were glimpses of raw ability, but Jones never came close to justifying the No. 6 overall pick Dave Gettleman used on him in 2019.
After what I have seen and read the last few weeks I think the ONLY THING that stops the Giants from signing DJ to a contract is if they can't agree on time and money! Otherwise he will be back in blue next year.
Dabs seems sold on him to be his guy! Or this is the biggest fake out ever!
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 05, 2023, 07:57:50 AMDabs seems sold on him to be his guy! Or this is the biggest fake out ever!
I haven't heard him or Schoen say it recently: "He's doing/done everything we've asked him to do."
To me, that's the kiss of death! :P As long as I don't hear that about Jones, I'm confident he'll be back!
Quote from: T200 on January 05, 2023, 08:08:28 AMI haven't heard him or Schoen say it recently: "He's doing/done everything we've asked him to do."
To me, that's the kiss of death! :P As long as I don't hear that about Jones, I'm confident he'll be back!
LOL agreed when I hear that phrase it makes me cringe!!!!
All we hear from Dabs is love and admiration. Not directly at/to the media, but on the sidelines, on video, caught in the heat of the moment when the two talk.
Quote from: T200 on January 04, 2023, 11:07:36 PMI wouldn't say it's all coaching. The players have done an excellent job with execution in the red zone. They deserve the lion's share of the credit.
Coaching ultimately puts the players in best position to succeed. So yes while the players are doing it the coaches have put them in the proper position to shine.
THE HERD | Greg Cosell tells Colin: Daniel Jones is the best
QB that can win NFC under Brian Daboll
https://youtu.be/DbUO3-SdTOY
Cosell: Daboll comfortable with Jones throwing 45 times....By the way with a Very average core of WRs behind a revolving door offensive line
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 03:31:32 PMTHE HERD | Greg Cosell tells Colin: Daniel Jones is the best
QB that can win NFC under Brian Daboll
https://youtu.be/DbUO3-SdTOY
Cosell: Daboll comfortable with Jones throwing 45 times....By the way with a Very average core of WRs behind a revolving door offensive line
A) No one said anything about Jones being the best Qb or that he could win the NFC in that video.
B) The last part you put under the video is out of context. He was saying that Daboll felt comfortable with Jones throwing it 45 times in the Vikings game, what does the Vikings team have that give context to the quote? The worst passing defense In the league, he even started it by saying "In the Vikings game Daboll was comfortable" and you left it out.
You know better than this by now its frankly absurd that everything you post has to be triple checked for accuracy instead of just being consumed for learning.
Why wouldn't you just put Cosell talks to Colin Cowherd about Daniel Jones.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 04:54:22 PMJClay writing something contradictory against anything positive published on Daniel Jones. Thats a surprise!
Still sticking to the quickly fading narrative. Let's see... Not ready to acknowledge anything good about #8 or our playoff run...still rebuilding.... Not going to spend money this offseason...gotcha.
Blue - everyone to a man has given Jones the props he deserves. In fact the "not sure" camp (me) have consistently hoped he would become the guy. That may be happening before our eyes. Sometimes it only takes a game or a situation to teach an athlete how to "slow it down" and I hope we are witnessing that.
However, please consider refraining from posting something that wasn't actually said as fact. It doesn't help.
Quote from: Trench on January 05, 2023, 05:14:40 PMBlue - everyone to a man has given Jones the props he deserves. In fact the "not sure" camp (me) have consistently hoped he would become the guy. That may be happening before our eyes. Sometimes it only takes a game or a situation to teach an athlete how to "slow it down" and I hope we are witnessing that.
However, please consider refraining from posting something that wasn't actually said as fact. It doesn't help.
Yes Trench I applaud you coming around on Jones in lieu of the quite obvious things we see on the field now. At least you are fully acknowledging them! Thats great it really is. However everyone to a man is certainly not the case. There are folks whether in this forum or in the general fandom populace that still have this unhealthy dislike for #8 which at this point cant even be based remotely on what you are seeing on the field anymore.
As for the title...Once again I posted the title of the video itself. Not my title. If you have a problem with it take it up with the youtube channel.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 05:24:02 PMAs for the title...Once again I posted the title of the video itself. Not my title. If you have a problem with it take it up with the youtube channel.
Perpetuating a false narrative and/or attacking those who expose said falsehoods are the same as initiating it.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 05:24:02 PMYes Trench I applaud you coming around on Jones in lieu of the quite obvious things we see on the field now. At least you are fully acknowledging them! Thats great it really is. However everyone to a man is certainly not the case. There are folks whether in this forum or in the general fandom populace that still have this unhealthy dislike for #8 which at this point cant even be based remotely on what you are seeing on the field anymore.
As for the title...Once again I posted the title of the video itself. Not my title. If you have a problem with it take it up with the youtube channel.
Fair enough BF....but as far as the..."folks who have a dislike for #8" stuff - isn't that ok???....why keep pushing?....and saying to "open your eyes first" is a personal attack and our leaders on this board have stated personal attacks will not tolerated. Let's enjoy this January football.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 05:24:02 PMYes Trench I applaud you coming around on Jones in lieu of the quite obvious things we see on the field now. At least you are fully acknowledging them! Thats great it really is. However everyone to a man is certainly not the case. There are folks whether in this forum or in the general fandom populace that still have this unhealthy dislike for #8 which at this point cant even be based remotely on what you are seeing on the field anymore.
As for the title...Once again I posted the title of the video itself. Not my title. If you have a problem with it take it up with the youtube channel.
DJ has developed into the QB most predicted and hoped for; to that point, to continue to perpetuate the notion there's an unlike for DJ is another fabrication. Speaking for myself (maybe DaveBrown), I've always liked DJ and believed he was better than average (12 to 18). HOWEVER, in the modern era, it's difficult as hell to win a SB without a top 10 QB. So, despite my like and acknowledgement he's better than average, I still wanted to roll the dice for a tier-1 QB. I don't want the Giants to become SF, Minn, LV, or Tenn...teams with a very good/Pro Bowl QBs who can never beat teams with Tier 1 QBs. As acknowledged weeks ago, given the Giants relative draft position, I recognize that's unlikely to happen, which is why I'm in favor of franchising DJ. DJ can lead above average teams; however, can he lead a SB team in the modern era? This season has not altered my thinking concerning the latter as it's less about DJ and more about the current NFL paradigm; concerning the latter, you need to be a prolific passer to win SBs. For context, I feel the same about Jared Goff, who had more yards, more TDs, better QBR, and better RTG than DJ. Despite his impressive year, I don't believe he's capable of beating a Patrick Mahomes led team in a SB. Where we differ is you think DJ is a WR away from being a Tier 1 QB. I completely disagree.
Yards #15
TDs #15
RTG #13
QBR #9
PFF #12
Put these numbers together, and he's exactly what most of said he could be, with a better Oline and healthy Barkley. For your edification, here's my current QB rankings
Tier 1
Mahomes
Herbert
Burrow
Hurts (the last two games should prove Hurts is top 5)
Allen
Tier 2
Jackson
Stafford (off year due to injury and personal issues...only played 9 Games)
Tagovailoa
Tier 3
Cousins
Smith (one good year)
Goff (Goff's had an objectively and subjectively better season than DJ)
DJ
Lawrence (he's moving up fast and could be tier 1 next season)
Prescott
Carr
Tannehill
Fields (he has least assets than any QB in the league)
Garopplo
Note: Brady, Wilson and Rodgers are clearly on their back-9s. I would take DJ over all three at this point in their careers.
Quote from: Trench on January 05, 2023, 06:26:39 PMFair enough BF....but as far as the..."folks who have a dislike for #8" stuff - isn't that ok???....why keep pushing?....and saying to "open your eyes first" is a personal attack and our leaders on this board have stated personal attacks will not tolerated. Let's enjoy this January football.
Trench...fair enough... I'm done with the retorts but keep in mind 9 times out of 10 Im just responding to someone else initiating.
@kingm56 If all you are looking for is a top-10 QB, it appears Daniel Jones is your man. Considering DJ is in (along with all his teammates) a first-year system. PFF has the Giants ranked 18th in pass protection and 27th in receiving. Yet despite these handicaps, DJ is currently.
QBR- 9
QB rating- 13
PFF- 14th (50% snaps)
On top of that, he has led his team to the playoffs.
With all of that, I have a hard time not seeing how he won't be top 10 next season. (assuming the Giants add some talent)
The Making of New York Giants QB Daniel Jones
Tyler Dunne of GoLong joins today's show to discuss Giants quarterback Daniel Jones, and how head coach Brian Daboll has helped get him on track. Plus we look at Jones's potential future with the Giants, and more.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2023, 07:24:00 PM@kingm56
If all you are looking for is a top-10 QB, it appears Daniel Jones is your man. Considering DJ is in (along with all his teammates) are in a first-year system. PFF has the Giants ranked 18th in pass protection and 27th in receiving. Yet despite these handicaps, DJ is currently.
QBR- 9
QB rating- 13
PFF- 14th (50% snaps)
On top of that, he has led his team to the playoffs.
With all of that, I have a hard time not seeing how he won't be top 10 next season. (assuming the Giants add some talent)
This, along with what I've seen from Daboll in raw footage and teammates coupled with Jones play of late is definitely encouraging.
I still need to see a few boxes checked to be sure (the main being a 2 minute drill to win a huge game) and I also wanna judge for myself his whole persona in that situation. Last week was a bit of a turning point in my eyes as he seems to slowed it down (especially on the scramble where instead of running he threw for the TD)...earlier in the year he would've ran and got tackled or thrown it away - but his feel is getting better. Something is beginning to click. We still see some ill advised passes but it's to be expected. If he uses Bellinger more over the middle (and also maybe Brightwell) we may see some very extended drives. I'm anxious to see Daniel in the big game. It will tell me a lot.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2023, 07:24:00 PM@kingm56
If all you are looking for is a top-10 QB, it appears Daniel Jones is your man. Considering DJ is in (along with all his teammates) a first-year system. PFF has the Giants ranked 18th in pass protection and 27th in receiving. Yet despite these handicaps, DJ is currently.
QBR- 9
QB rating- 13
PFF- 14th (50% snaps)
On top of that, he has led his team to the playoffs.
With all of that, I have a hard time not seeing how he won't be top 10 next season. (assuming the Giants add some talent)
Hey
@MightyGiants Those numbers average to 12, exactly where we thought he could be. I listed the QBs I thought were better than DJ. He falls just outside the top 10. I would also like to see DJ repeat this year's performance and increase his objective stats, which are still in the bottom 1/2 of the league. I continue to advocate for the franchise tag.
Jan 5, 2023
Max Kellerman puts Daniel Jones in Tier 3️⃣ of NFL QBs 🤨 | KJM
Max Kellerman explains why he has been impressed with New York Giants QB Daniel Jones.
#ESPN #NFL
Quote from: Trench on January 05, 2023, 07:44:14 PMThis, along with what I've seen from Daboll in raw footage and teammates coupled with Jones play of late is definitely encouraging.
I still need to see a few boxes checked to be sure (the main being a 2 minute drill to win a huge game) and I also wanna judge for myself his whole persona in that situation. Last week was a bit of a turning point in my eyes as he seems to slowed it down (especially on the scramble where instead of running he threw for the TD)...earlier in the year he would've ran and got tackled or thrown it away - but his feel is getting better. Something is beginning to click. We still see some ill advised passes but it's to be expected. If he uses Bellinger more over the middle (and also maybe Brightwell) we may see some very extended drives. I'm anxious to see Daniel in the big game. It will tell me a lot.
Matt,
Would you agree that Jones is an ascending player? I mean to my eyes, Jones seems to have gotten better and better as the season progressed.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2023, 08:00:24 PMJan 5, 2023
Max Kellerman puts Daniel Jones in Tier 3️⃣ of NFL QBs 🤨 | KJM
Max Kellerman explains why he has been impressed with New York Giants QB Daniel Jones.
#ESPN #NFL
That would seem a little low if someone was unaware that Max's top 3 tiers are his top 6 QBS. Onr in tier 1, 2 in tier 2, and 3 in tier 3.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2023, 07:24:00 PM@kingm56
If all you are looking for is a top-10 QB, it appears Daniel Jones is your man. Considering DJ is in (along with all his teammates) a first-year system. PFF has the Giants ranked 18th in pass protection and 27th in receiving. Yet despite these handicaps, DJ is currently.
QBR- 9
QB rating- 13
PFF- 14th (50% snaps)
On top of that, he has led his team to the playoffs.
With all of that, I have a hard time not seeing how he won't be top 10 next season. (assuming the Giants add some talent)
You can also add
#6 in EPA
#1 in INT %
Considering the lack of "playmakers" he's had to work with.
Disclaimer
I put "playmakers" loosely here since Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air in this offense but did we really expect a practice squad player to come in here and be DJs safety blanket.
Hodgins is a crafty WR and knows how to create space. However he is not that stud that is going to run sub 4.4 that will blow the top off any defense.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 04:58:48 PMResponses in asterisks. Try learning by opening your eyes first.
Please, can we just stop attacking each other? Some of us are trying here. Posts like this will not help this board become more civil
One thing is clear about Jones. He's a good quarterback. He's not even close to his potential given the roster and first season with new coach and coordinator. He's tough as nails, and teammates will go to war for that dude every week. And we saw Hurts go from a guy people were outright wondering about to a possible MVP when he got an elite veteran WR in a good system under Sirianni.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 05, 2023, 09:19:52 PMOne thing is clear about Jones. He's a good quarterback. He's not even close to his potential given the roster and first season with new coach and coordinator. He's tough as nails, and teammates will go to war for that dude every week. And we saw Hurts go from a guy people were outright wondering about to a possible MVP when he got an elite veteran WR in a good system under Sirianni.
Maybe, maybe not, we will see. Hopefully if he stays, it happens.
Like someone else said, I forget who, but many here not "in favor" of DJ, ultimately want him to play well and be that guy for as long as he is wearing the royal blue jersey. We ultimately want the team to win regardless of who is on the roster. He is playing good, he has stepped up a bit lately and credit was given to him.
If he is resigned, the roster gets built and he takes another step, I am sure 95+% of anyone wanting a change, will happily and willingly eat crow. Seeing the Giants succeed is all that matters for all of us at the end of the day
Quote from: GMenRF on January 05, 2023, 08:59:52 PMYou can also add
#6 in EPA
#1 in INT %
Considering the lack of "playmakers" he's had to work with.
Disclaimer
I put "playmakers" loosely here since Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air in this offense but did we really expect a practice squad player to come in here and be DJs safety blanket.
Hodgins is a crafty WR and knows how to create space. However he is not that stud that is going to run sub 4.4 that will blow the top off any defense.
I'm more impressed with Hodgins each week as he improves. He's a smart player with good vision and instincts, finding space and making catches. I don't think we've seen the best of him yet.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 05, 2023, 08:21:36 PMThat would seem a little low if someone was unaware that Max's top 3 tiers are his top 6 QBS. Onr in tier 1, 2 in tier 2, and 3 in tier 3.
@AZGiantFan, it might be similar to the tiers I specified on page 55; interesting enough, tier 3 is exactly where I have Jones. My top two tiers are limited to just 8 QBs...
Quote from: GMenRF on January 05, 2023, 08:59:52 PMYou can also add
#6 in EPA
#1 in INT %
Considering the lack of "playmakers" he's had to work with.
Disclaimer
I put "playmakers" loosely here since Hodgins has been a breath of fresh air in this offense but did we really expect a practice squad player to come in here and be DJs safety blanket.
Hodgins is a crafty WR and knows how to create space. However he is not that stud that is going to run sub 4.4 that will blow the top off any defense.
Yes, but you can also add #20 TD and #26 in YDS/ATT. I actually like/prefer
@MightyGiants calculous for evaluating QBs, which includes a combination of QBR, Ratings and PFF score.
Quote from: kingm56 on January 05, 2023, 09:39:09 PM@AZGiantFan, it might be similar to the tiers I specified on page 55; interesting enough, tier 3 is exactly where I have Jones. My top two tiers are limited to just 8 QBs...
It is nothing like your tiers. In his tiers the top 2 tiers have 3 QBs combined. Which was my point, his tier 3 contains the 4-6th ranked QBs whereas your tier 3 contains the 9-19 ranked QBs. So the respective tiering is not even close
I'm not saying one is better than another, just clarifying the vastly different meanings that "tier 3" has in these 2 instances. For me, his has DJ ranked too high, while yours has him ranked too low.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 05, 2023, 08:21:36 PMThat would seem a little low if someone was unaware that Max's top 3 tiers are his top 6 QBS. Onr in tier 1, 2 in tier 2, and 3 in tier 3.
I always appreciate people who take the time to watch the video. I was surprised. I started watching the video, I was expecting that it would be a negative commentary on Jones. I was surprised to see he was arguing that Jones is the 6th best (or in a 3-way tie for the 4th best).
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 05, 2023, 08:00:24 PM
Jan 5, 2023
Max Kellerman puts Daniel Jones in Tier 3️⃣ of NFL QBs 🤨 | KJM
Max Kellerman explains why he has been impressed with New York Giants QB Daniel Jones.
#ESPN #NFL
I like this means of evaluation because it heavily weighs the most recent play and it gets re-evaluated each week. I wouldn't argue much about his choices either because it does take into consideration the entire season.
Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
If you want the TLDR, #Giants Brian Daboll is the obvious Coach Of The Year b/c he made the playoffs w/ THIS roster.
But having analyzed the tape of every game (check out the YT show linked at end of thread!), there's a non-TLDR case to be made.
So here's my thread on that(1/?)
Most of the Daboll COTY talk focuses on his roster maximization. Gettleman left him with more than 25% of his cap allocated to players off the roster or not playing. AND he burned multiple 1st-round picks (Baker, Toney). But I want to focus on his actual coaching so.. (cont)
The key to Daboll's success has been his (w/ help of Kafka/Tierney) development of DJ. We'll get to that. But his decision in Week 1 to go for the win (2-pt conversion call) was momentous. The #Giants hadn't had a winning record at any point since 2016 before that W (cont)
Daboll's development w/ DJ stands tallest. It starts w/ Daboll's recognition of DJ's biggest weakness on tape and his solution for it. What did he recognize? In the past systems, DJ had a tendency to sit in the pocket and lock into reads, often waiting for a WR to get open (cont)
This tendency led to sacks, forced fumbles, late throws that got tipped and at times intercepted and not a lot of successful plays. So the first thing Daboll did was hammer home: if you don't like what you see, check the B gap and if it's open take it (as a runner) (cont)
As @BenjaminSolak did a great job pointing out earlier, EPA on "scrambles (non-designed runs)" is higher than just about anything else. So Daboll took away the long waiting periods in the pocket that led to sacks&turnovers and morphed them into scramble runs. That's not all(cont)
There was a focus in camp on drills that required DJ to move his feet, leave the pocket & keep his eyes down the field. The latter is key here. It's impossible to watch DJ film this year and not notice a massive jump in his ability to create plays off platform with his ARM (cont)
The biggest difference is that DJ is now keeping his eyes down field the entire time on the move + not moving at 100%. He patiently moves out of the pocket (mostly right, he's righty), keeps his eyes downfield and allows things to develop (cont)
And it's no coincidence that #Giants WRs have developed a plan now for when DJ is on the move. Darius Slayton talked about this w Art Stapleton. Each WR has his own plan for scramble plays and DJ and his WRs are perfectly in sync (cont)
W/ this plan. That hasn't been the case at any point from 2019-2021 under two diff coaches. It showed up almost immediately under Daboll. Those are the main areas Daboll has developed DJ but not the only ones so here are a few more (cont)
#Giants
Improvements:
- Less burping the baby (specifically as of late)
- Better footwork (he used to have a drifting issue in the pocket under pressure, now he steps through and either runs or flows right)
- Faster eyes post snap (DJ confirming the safety&second level defenders)
(cont)
Overall, the job Daboll and staff have done revamping a QB's game in Year 4 is in a lot of ways unprecedented. The improvement he helped DJ make w/ pocket manipulation and off script play success are enough alone for me, but taking this #Giants roster to the playoffs is it (cont)
If you enjoyed this thread, please consider checking out the Big Blue Banter #Giants podcast and YouTube show. You'll find Xs and Os film based analysis from myself and @nickfalato
#TogetherBlue
Links:
open.spotify.com/show/38eY2hw59...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1611424471788691457.html
Seth Galina of PFF has perhaps the most negative evaluation of Jones I have seen in some time:
DANIEL JONES
2022 PFF Grade: 76.7
Strength: Athletic ability
Weakness: Timing
Best Fit: The NFL offenses that make their quarterbacks look better than they are
With the Giants returning to the playoffs, there is enough goodwill for the franchise to endure another season from Daniel Jones, but he and the team are likely regression candidates. Head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have done a commendable job creating an offense that hid most of Jones' faults. Jones is at best a slightly above-average quarterback and could look effective in a good scheme (he has that this year) and with a good supporting group of pass catchers (he does not have that this year), but he will probably never be a player who can elevate his teammates.
The Giants' coaching staff protected Jones with a league-leading number of bootlegs, the fourth-most quarterback runs and a seventh-ranked running game in expected points added per play this season. This was the perfect storm for Daniel Jones to look like a good quarterback without necessarily being one.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-preview-2023-free-agent-quarterback-class-lamar-jackson-geno-smith-tom-brady
https://youtube.com/shorts/RwW9fyLT5no?feature=share
https://youtu.be/quZP4xLWa3U
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2023, 03:29:38 PMSeth Galina of PFF has perhaps the most negative evaluation of Jones I have seen in some time:
DANIEL JONES
2022 PFF Grade: 76.7
Strength: Athletic ability
Weakness: Timing
Best Fit: The NFL offenses that make their quarterbacks look better than they are
With the Giants returning to the playoffs, there is enough goodwill for the franchise to endure another season from Daniel Jones, but he and the team are likely regression candidates. Head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have done a commendable job creating an offense that hid most of Jones' faults. Jones is at best a slightly above-average quarterback and could look effective in a good scheme (he has that this year) and with a good supporting group of pass catchers (he does not have that this year), but he will probably never be a player who can elevate his teammates.
The Giants' coaching staff protected Jones with a league-leading number of bootlegs, the fourth-most quarterback runs and a seventh-ranked running game in expected points added per play this season. This was the perfect storm for Daniel Jones to look like a good quarterback without necessarily being one.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-preview-2023-free-agent-quarterback-class-lamar-jackson-geno-smith-tom-brady
Jury's still out on DJ. The next two games will go a long way but eventually his contract will tell all.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2023, 03:29:38 PMSeth Galina of PFF has perhaps the most negative evaluation of Jones I have seen in some time:
DANIEL JONES
2022 PFF Grade: 76.7
Strength: Athletic ability
Weakness: Timing
Best Fit: The NFL offenses that make their quarterbacks look better than they are
With the Giants returning to the playoffs, there is enough goodwill for the franchise to endure another season from Daniel Jones, but he and the team are likely regression candidates. Head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have done a commendable job creating an offense that hid most of Jones' faults. Jones is at best a slightly above-average quarterback and could look effective in a good scheme (he has that this year) and with a good supporting group of pass catchers (he does not have that this year), but he will probably never be a player who can elevate his teammates.
The Giants' coaching staff protected Jones with a league-leading number of bootlegs, the fourth-most quarterback runs and a seventh-ranked running game in expected points added per play this season. This was the perfect storm for Daniel Jones to look like a good quarterback without necessarily being one.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-preview-2023-free-agent-quarterback-class-lamar-jackson-geno-smith-tom-brady
I think between this one and the PFF you shared both have truths. I think when Teams gameplans prioritize Jones over Barkley then he can look like what the PFF article stated. Specifically the Seattle and Lions game. Those two games highlight his tendency to dance or stay in the pocket entirely too long but for the most part this season he's looked like the first article from Dan. Maybe Seth only watched the first couple of conference games plus seattle and Detriot. Who knows but it's definitely not as bad as Dan makes it especially if we see Jones vs the Jags, Vikes, Colts consistently moving forward.
I still don't think he's the long term answer because of my views on team building (we have a lot of team left to build) but he's earned the right to compete next year and build off the end if this season.
I also think the fan base as a whole and media outlets might have a different perception of Jones had we opened the playbook a little earlier than the last 3 weeks.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2023, 03:29:38 PMSeth Galina of PFF has perhaps the most negative evaluation of Jones I have seen in some time:
DANIEL JONES
2022 PFF Grade: 76.7
Strength: Athletic ability
Weakness: Timing
Best Fit: The NFL offenses that make their quarterbacks look better than they are
With the Giants returning to the playoffs, there is enough goodwill for the franchise to endure another season from Daniel Jones, but he and the team are likely regression candidates. Head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have done a commendable job creating an offense that hid most of Jones' faults. Jones is at best a slightly above-average quarterback and could look effective in a good scheme (he has that this year) and with a good supporting group of pass catchers (he does not have that this year), but he will probably never be a player who can elevate his teammates.
The Giants' coaching staff protected Jones with a league-leading number of bootlegs, the fourth-most quarterback runs and a seventh-ranked running game in expected points added per play this season. This was the perfect storm for Daniel Jones to look like a good quarterback without necessarily being one.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-preview-2023-free-agent-quarterback-class-lamar-jackson-geno-smith-tom-brady
I don't see it as negative. Personally, I see his ceiling as slightly above average as well. Given the right components on offense, I think he can be very successful.
Going into the season I wanted him to be healthy, be clutch in close games, and be a large part of the reason we win, not so much when we lose.
He's answered all of my questions very well. If Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, and Peyton Manning (Broncos) can win with a strong team, Jones can too.
https://youtu.be/8ijZKae3l4k
I don't know who this guy is or his credentials, but he makes videos about all teams across the league, so is presumably fairly objective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Iay74Oxq6U
https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-giants/brian-daboll-mike-kafka-daniel-jones/
Giants Have 'Protected' a 'Slightly Above-Average' Starter
:doh:
https://youtu.be/wKB2byi4Edg
Daniel if things continue in the direction they are bulding towards may have a VERY very strong next year.
-60-65M+ cap with Galloday post June 1 cut and possible other cap creating moves.
-Wink and Daboll getting a couple key guys to reshape/fortify the roster on both sides of the ball with players for their preffered vision of offense/defense.
-Year 2 of Daboll/Kafka . Player familiarity with system along with key rookies maturing (Neal, Thibodeaux, WanDale? etc)
Potential BIG news if true. But apparently Boomer Esiason said on his WFAN show this morning DJ and Giants are ALREADY close to an extension for him right now. The main detail they are hashing is whether it will be a 3 or 4 year deal.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 09, 2023, 01:00:41 PMPotential BIG news if true. But apparently Boomer Esiason said on his WFAN show this morning DJ and Giants are ALREADY close to an extension for him right now. The main detail they are hashing is whether it will be a 3 or 4 year deal.
Boomer hasn't exactly shown the credentials as one of the NFL's insiders, and none of the Giants beat writers or insiders have repeated this story. As such, I am taking the report with a massive grain of salt (plus, JS said he wouldn't negotiate after the bye)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2023, 03:29:38 PMSeth Galina of PFF has perhaps the most negative evaluation of Jones I have seen in some time:
DANIEL JONES
2022 PFF Grade: 76.7
Strength: Athletic ability
Weakness: Timing
Best Fit: The NFL offenses that make their quarterbacks look better than they are
With the Giants returning to the playoffs, there is enough goodwill for the franchise to endure another season from Daniel Jones, but he and the team are likely regression candidates. Head coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka have done a commendable job creating an offense that hid most of Jones' faults. Jones is at best a slightly above-average quarterback and could look effective in a good scheme (he has that this year) and with a good supporting group of pass catchers (he does not have that this year), but he will probably never be a player who can elevate his teammates.
The Giants' coaching staff protected Jones with a league-leading number of bootlegs, the fourth-most quarterback runs and a seventh-ranked running game in expected points added per play this season. This was the perfect storm for Daniel Jones to look like a good quarterback without necessarily being one.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-preview-2023-free-agent-quarterback-class-lamar-jackson-geno-smith-tom-brady
I don't agree that this is negative. Overall I think this assessment of Jones is accurate. I think too many times people take it being said that Daniel Jones is a middle of the road average QB as the same as saying that he is a bust when it's simply not the case. I'd rather be in a position having an average middle of the road QB than no QB at all. Though I am still hopeful that should the Giants bring Jones back it's not on a deal that comes with a $30+ million cap hit.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2023, 01:07:02 PMBoomer hasn't exactly shown the credentials as one of the NFL's insiders, and none of the Giants beat writers or insiders have repeated this story. As such, I am taking the report with a massive grain of salt (plus, JS said he wouldn't negotiate after the bye)
Don't blame you for that stance at all. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt right now. But I wouldnt call Esasion incarcerated Bob or some off the wall shock jock either. He has pn occasion broken stuff before and apparently does have some local connections to the team. Just putting what he said out there and lets see if it actually comes to fruition!
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 09, 2023, 01:37:39 PMDon't blame you for that stance at all. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt right now. But I wouldnt call Esasion incarcerated Bob or some off the wall shock jock either. He has pn occasion broken stuff before and apparently does have some local connections to the team. Just putting what he said out there and lets see if it actually comes to fruition!
https://twitter.com/Jaycaleb8/status/1612425054414934016
Wow thanks for finding that.
I have been impressed his last 2 games. But I doubt Boomer knows a thing. JS said after the bye, they would wait until after the season. I would think that includes playoffs?
My guess on the contract will somewhere between $32-$35M AAV on either a 3 or 4 year deal with a sizeable amount garanteed...but also structured with a lower year 1 cap hit possiblly sub 20M like Dak Prescott had. To allow us better cap flexibility next year as we look to fortify the roster.
https://twitter.com/nickfalato/status/1612779410913886210
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2023, 08:04:09 AMhttps://twitter.com/nickfalato/status/1612779410913886210
That's great and all but the flip side is that he only averaged 6.8 YPA which means he primarily is throwing shorter passes. It's fine and I don't have a problem with it but I'd like to see where he ranks in number of passes less than 20 yards. I'd go out on a limb and say he's at least top 3.
I wouldn't go anywhere near contract discussions if I'm Shoen. Don't need any distractions whatsoever.
I would also use this game as a very very important barometer on the Jones metric to see if he is a guy who can slow it down in the playoffs. It's all different starting Sunday. I hope he plays so well that it increases his contract demands. But the opposite may happen as well.
Quote from: Trench on January 10, 2023, 12:07:05 PMI wouldn't go anywhere near contract discussions if I'm Shoen. Don't need any distractions whatsoever.
I would also use this game as a very very important barometer on the Jones metric to see if he is a guy who can slow it down in the playoffs. It's all different starting Sunday. I hope he plays so well that it increases his contract demands. But the opposite may happen as well.
With this being his first playoff game I don't think a good or bad performances helps or hurts him. At this point the front office has to have an idea of the direction they're going in this off season with Jones and the QB position.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 10, 2023, 12:15:16 PMWith this being his first playoff game I don't think a good or bad performances helps or hurts him. At this point the front office has to have an idea of the direction they're going in this off season with Jones and the QB position.
Perhaps. But if he shows up looking calm as a cucumber and/or makes a drive in the big spot to secure a win then I think it certainly will play in the equation. We have seen him play much better last few weeks - even feeling pocket pressure better. I am most impressed how he isn't putting his head down and running when under duress - he is finally looking downfield with a confident posture looking to still make a throw. That's been different than what we have seen most of the season.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2023, 10:22:23 AMThat's great and all but the flip side is that he only averaged 6.8 YPA which means he primarily is throwing shorter passes. It's fine and I don't have a problem with it but I'd like to see where he ranks in number of passes less than 20 yards. I'd go out on a limb and say he's at least top 3.
He's tied for 28th with Murray in passes of 20+ with 27 and he's 22nd in passes of 40+ with 5. Net yards per passing play he's 24th with 5.7. This may be the closest one to what you are asking but he's tied for 27th in Completed air yard per completion with baker Mayfield at 5.1 yards. So the average completed pass is 5.1 yard in the air. He's also 33rd on his Alex score with -1.2 meaning he throws on average 1.2 yards short of the 1st down.
Hopefully those stats help. Couldn't find the passes short of 10 or 20 yards though.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2023, 08:04:09 AMhttps://twitter.com/nickfalato/status/1612779410913886210
When I shoot from 7-10 yards I'm pretty accurate. 15-20 yards, not as much.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 10, 2023, 01:18:29 PMWhen I shoot from 7-10 yards I'm pretty accurate. 15-20 yards, not as much.
Well, you hit the target of my point dead center and I'm waaaaaay down here in Delaware! :P
DJ 2022 Stats
- 7th in QBR
- 6th in Comp%
- 1st in Int%
- 21st in Pass TD
- 5th in QB Rush Yards
- Tied for 3rd in QB Run TD
- Tied 2nd in GWD; 3rd in 4Q comebacks
- 69.2% Total offensive yards
- 26th in Sck%
- 25th in pass Y/G
Passing TDs and Passing Yards per game is where we need to see improvement
Quote from: Trench on January 10, 2023, 06:52:16 PMPassing TDs and Passing Yards per game is where we need to see improvement
Major improvement needed in the passing game. Can't be in the mid 20's next season.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 10, 2023, 07:47:26 PMMajor improvement needed in the passing game. Can't be in the mid 20's next season.
Yup, Get the WR 1 and that will likely change...
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 10, 2023, 09:09:50 PMYup, Get the WR 1 and that will likely change...
To be fair I heard the same thing a year ago if the Giants replaced Jason Garrett as offensive coordinator and upgraded the offensive line. Both of those things were done and all it led to was going from 31st to 24th in passing yards and that was with Jones making 5 more starts than he did a year ago along with a healthy Barkley to open things up off playaction.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 11, 2023, 05:54:43 AMTo be fair I heard the same thing a year ago if the Giants replaced Jason Garrett as offensive coordinator and upgraded the offensive line. Both of those things were done and all it led to was going from 31st to 24th in passing yards and that was with Jones making 5 more starts than he did a year ago along with a healthy Barkley to open things up off playaction.
If you have to have a 16 million a year RB and a 20-30 million a year Wr so that your Qbs stats aren't in the 20s is it really worth it? Just saying.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2023, 10:15:40 AMIf you have to have a 16 million a year RB and a 20-30 million a year Wr so that your Qbs stats aren't in the 20s is it really worth it? Just saying.
Elite, or even very good QBs, make their players better. If you need players to kake you better, than you are not that, you are average at best.
If DJ plays more games like his last few, perhaps the view on him can change a bit. But I currently still don't view him as a long term, $35m+ guy
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 11, 2023, 11:36:47 AMElite, or even very good QBs, make their players better. If you need players to kake you better, than you are not that, you are average at best.
If DJ plays more games like his last few, perhaps the view on him can change a bit. But I currently still don't view him as a long term, $35m+ guy
He's definitely short term 2-3 year hopefully with it all up front so we can continue building out the team for a couple of years and have it ready for whoever. I just doubt a majority of this roster is here for it minus Lawrence, Thomas, thibs, Neal, Bellinger, and Mckinney.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 11, 2023, 11:36:47 AMElite, or even very good QBs, make their players better. If you need players to kake you better, than you are not that, you are average at best.
If DJ plays more games like his last few, perhaps the view on him can change a bit. But I currently still don't view him as a long term, $35m+ guy
He took 2 guys who we had barely heard of and they turned into legitimate depth receivers who were forced into starting roles and performed well, both with career bests in catches and yards. And revived a moribund guy's career from 5th or lower on the initial depth chart to a point where we have to be concerned about him going FA.
Did they elevate DJ or did he elevate them? Personally I find the answer to this to be easier than the chicken/egg conundrum.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2023, 10:15:40 AMIf you have to have a 16 million a year RB and a 20-30 million a year Wr so that your Qbs stats aren't in the 20s is it really worth it? Just saying.
Fair point which is why at least for me if the Giants are going to bring back both Jones and Barkley on big cap hits I would look to the draft to address the playmaking WR need. I don't believe long term they can afford to pay Barkley big money and also bring in a big money WR. Just look to Dallas for that one where they ended up having to trade Cooper.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 11, 2023, 01:57:56 PMFair point which is why at least for me if the Giants are going to bring back both Jones and Barkley on big cap hits I would look to the draft to address the playmaking WR need. I don't believe long term they can afford to pay Barkley big money and also bring in a big money WR. Just look to Dallas for that one where they ended up having to trade Cooper.
Teams only have so much cap money. If the Giants decide to re-sign both Jones and Barkley, I think it's fair to say that they will be done with higher-priced free agents. A number one WR would then have to be drafted rather than signed as a FA or traded for (with the possible exception being a lower-priced WR that can be had for a day 3 pick).
As you and others pointed out a veteran QB sucks up cap space, so teams need to offset that by having some of the other expensive positions, like WR 1, under cheap rookie contracts.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2023, 03:14:11 PMTeams only have so much cap money. If the Giants decide to re-sign both Jones and Barkley, I think it's fair to say that they will be done with higher-priced free agents. A number one WR would then have to be drafted rather than signed as a FA or traded for (with the possible exception being a lower-priced WR that can be had for a day 3 pick).
As you and others pointed out a veteran QB sucks up cap space, so teams need to offset that by having some of the other expensive positions, like WR 1, under cheap rookie contracts.
I understand this point and it is very true you cant have monstrous contracts at too many positions on a team but have we fully broken down what this means exactly in NFL cap terms?
-An elite RB is closer to a 10M dollar AAV not a 20M
-All our lineman are sub 10 million dollar contracts (though AT will change that in a year or so)
-Our TEs are not making much at all collectively
-All our WR after we jettison Golladay will be making a pretty low amount collectively even if we resign some combination of Hodgins/ James/ Slayton/ Shepard because none of those guys will command some kind of mega deal deal based on this year or their career performances to date.
If you resign DJ and Barkley , their first year cap hit will likely be around 30-35M combined. 2023 cap space sits around 60M which is 3rd in the entire NFL. It can grow to roughly 72+ with cutting KG post June 1 and then 85+ with a retructure or extension if we so desire. 2024 cap space explodes to 179M (which will decrease a bit with DJ/Barks 2nd year cap hit but it will still be likely pretty well north of 100M) .
After DJ/Barkley potentially resign, only one player will be an 8 digit cap hit on offense (Thomas as 10.2M).
For more perspective, here are a few other teams in 2023 (pretty eye opening numbers):
-Cowboys have 5 offensive players including an WR, RB and QB with a 14M cap hit or more headlined by Dak at 49M for a total of roughly a whopping 119M in cap space.
-Tampa Bay has 6 players including 2WRs , the QB and the RB making 8 million or more headlined by Bradys 35M for a total of around 133M in cap space
-Chiefs have 4 offensive players with an 11M cap hit or more headlined by their QB at 47M for a total of roughly 94M in cap space
-Minnesota our upcoming playoff opponent has 4 offensive players including a QB at 36M , a WR , a RB and an OL all making 14M or more tying up roughly 90M in cap space.
-Raiders have 5 offensive players (3 in the receiving game) with a 12.5M cap hit or more headlined by Carr at 35M for a total of roughly 94M in cap space
-Bills have 75M tied up in cap amongst 3 players on offense.
In summation: When you look at the NFL landscape combined with what we have currently in future contracts including the likely resigning of Barkley and Jones even if we traded for a big time WR to add to this mix it would not be drastically different in the cap calculus relative to other teams (and a number of playoff ones at that).
https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 06:53:19 PMI understand this point and it is very true you cant have monstrous contracts at too many positions on a team . I would counter with this if I may:
-An elite RB is a 10M dollar contract not a 20M
-All our lineman are sub 10 million dollar contracts (though AT will change that in a year or so)
-Our TEs are not making much at all
-All our WR/TEs after we jettison Golladay will be making very little even if we resign some combination of Hodgins/ James/ Slayton/ Cager because none of those guys will command some kind of mega deal deal based on this year or their career performances to date.
If you resign DJ , Barkely their first year cap hit will be around 30M combined. Next years cap space is 179M (which will decrease a bit with DJ/Barks 2nd year cap hit but it will still be likely pretty well north of 100M still) .
After DJ/Barkley, not one player will be an 8 digit cap hit on offense. I think they would be able to add (if they so desired) a big money WR to that mix without jeopardizing the apple cart too much.
Your cap space number is for 2024. The 2023 space is about third of that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2023, 07:10:24 PMYour cap space number is for 2024. The 2023 space is about third of that.
:doh:
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2023, 07:10:24 PMYour cap space number is for 2024. The 2023 space is about third of that.
Thanks I edited the syntax to clarify.
The point was that you can structure contracts with higher cap hits in year 2 (2024) vs year 1 (2023) because 2024 is an obscenely high 179M cap space vs the still quite high 60-85M (3rd in NFL of 2023 with the high end of 85M after restructures/cuts/extensions if need be)
Mighty Ive always found you to be a man of reason who looked for the answers without letting bias cloud your judgment most of the time. I would ask you to take some time and take a closer look at the overthecap numbers I pointed out for other NFL teams along with our own cap space next year and beyond . I think you will quickly realize we can most certainly add a big contract or two in addition to Barkley and Jones without it upsetting the apple cart (should we so desire). In fact it would be very much in line with the NFL landscape of many current playoff teams.
BF - I think you missed your calling as a GM or capologist. You will pound your fist against the table until the cows come home I'll give u that.
I'm happy with where we are with our WR (in terms of NOT breaking the bank) for a #1. I think Our GM agrees
Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2023, 08:53:18 PMBF - I think you missed your calling as a GM or capologist. You will pound your fist against the table until the cows come home I'll give u that.
I'm happy with where we are with our WR (in terms of NOT breaking the bank) for a #1. I think Our GM agrees
I'd much rather talk about upgrading our punter at this point than Wr in every thread.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2023, 09:22:09 PMI'd much rather talk about upgrading our punter at this point than Wr in every thread.
But Hopkins would transform our offense and franchise QB, we would be super bowl favorites!!!!! /sarcasm/
Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2023, 08:53:18 PMBF - I think you missed your calling as a GM or capologist. You will pound your fist against the table until the cows come home I'll give u that.
I'm happy with where we are with our WR (in terms of NOT breaking the bank) for a #1. I think Our GM agrees
Trench I was convicted there would be more spending by the team going into Judges second year (though many didn't see it) and I'm convicted they will spend pretty big this offseason. Many teams right now with a big money QB have 3-5 more offensive players making 10 plus million on their payroll. I don't think Schoen goes against the grain here. As far as trades we were definitely in the market for a WR at the deadline. I don't see that being any different this offseason. The question becomes at what price? I am unsure if they would do a 1 even if in the 20s be or 2 or later I believe is definitely something they would do.
Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2023, 08:53:18 PMBF - I think you missed your calling as a GM or capologist. You will pound your fist against the table until the cows come home I'll give u that.
I'm happy with where we are with our WR (in terms of NOT breaking the bank) for a #1. I think Our GM agrees
Just move on. It will just be 30 more posts in 20 more threads of the same thing.
We have other things we can discuss!
Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on January 11, 2023, 10:42:08 PMJust move on. It will just be 30 more posts in 20 more threads of the same thing.
We have other things we can discuss!
True we could be discussing how Allen Lazard should be our main aquistion at WR this offseason.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 10:54:38 PMTrue we could be discussing how Allen Lazard should be our main aquistion at WR this offseason.
You used the word main not me! I found an article and shared it.
Have I Harped on it in 20 threads and argued that we have to sign him with 1/2 the board?
No I haven't.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2023, 09:22:09 PMI'd much rather talk about upgrading our punter at this point than Wr in every thread.
Good point.
To that - is anyone worried the Scottish Hammer will do something to hurt our chances on Sunday?
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 06:53:19 PMI understand this point and it is very true you cant have monstrous contracts at too many positions on a team but have we fully broken down what this means exactly in NFL cap terms?
-An elite RB is closer to a 10M dollar AAV not a 20M
-All our lineman are sub 10 million dollar contracts (though AT will change that in a year or so)
-Our TEs are not making much at all collectively
-All our WR after we jettison Golladay will be making a pretty low amount collectively even if we resign some combination of Hodgins/ James/ Slayton/ Shepard because none of those guys will command some kind of mega deal deal based on this year or their career performances to date.
If you resign DJ and Barkley , their first year cap hit will likely be around 30-35M combined. 2023 cap space sits around 60M which is 3rd in the entire NFL. It can grow to roughly 72+ with cutting KG post June 1 and then 85+ with a retructure or extension if we so desire. 2024 cap space explodes to 179M (which will decrease a bit with DJ/Barks 2nd year cap hit but it will still be likely pretty well north of 100M) .
After DJ/Barkley potentially resign, only one player will be an 8 digit cap hit on offense (Thomas as 10.2M).
For more perspective, here are a few other teams in 2023 (pretty eye opening numbers):
-Cowboys have 5 offensive players including an WR, RB and QB with a 14M cap hit or more headlined by Dak at 49M for a total of roughly a whopping 119M in cap space.
-Tampa Bay has 6 players including 2WRs , the QB and the RB making 8 million or more headlined by Bradys 35M for a total of around 133M in cap space
-Chiefs have 4 offensive players with an 11M cap hit or more headlined by their QB at 47M for a total of roughly 94M in cap space
-Minnesota our upcoming playoff opponent has 4 offensive players including a QB at 36M , a WR , a RB and an OL all making 14M or more tying up roughly 90M in cap space.
-Raiders have 5 offensive players (3 in the receiving game) with a 12.5M cap hit or more headlined by Carr at 35M for a total of roughly 94M in cap space
-Bills have 75M tied up in cap amongst 3 players on offense.
In summation: When you look at the NFL landscape combined with what we have currently in future contracts including the likely resigning of Barkley and Jones even if we traded for a big time WR to add to this mix it would not be drastically different in the cap calculus relative to other teams (and a number of playoff ones at that).
https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
As I said in another thread you have to factor in the Thomas and Lawrence extensions that are coming. If you want to keep both and build depth you can't be paying your QB, RB and WR all top dollar.
Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2023, 11:41:55 PMGood point.
To that - is anyone worried the Scottish Hammer will do something to hurt our chances on Sunday?
Then let's discuss and change the narrative lol
Yes he concerns me BUT there isn't much we can do about it!! He is Dr Jeckyle and Mr Hyde for sure as a player!
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 12, 2023, 07:01:59 AMAs I said in another thread you have to factor in the Thomas and Lawrence extensions that are coming. If you want to keep both and build depth you can't be paying your QB, RB and WR all top dollar.
Do the cap math... we can keep those guys and still have money to sign other players.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 10:54:38 PMTrue we could be discussing how Allen Lazard should be our main aquistion at WR this offseason.
He is not a #1, he would be a solid addition to our room, but I would not pay him close to WR1 money.
Quote from: Trench on January 11, 2023, 11:41:55 PMGood point.
To that - is anyone worried the Scottish Hammer will do something to hurt our chances on Sunday?
Not at all. I don't understand the grief he gets on this board. Was the botched fake punt his fault? He's a punter from Scotland, not a QB. I still miss the days when the backup QB was the holder to make fakes more likely to work.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 08:02:54 PMThanks I edited the syntax to clarify.
The point was that you can structure contracts with higher cap hits in year 2 (2024) vs year 1 (2023) because 2024 is an obscenely high 179M cap space vs the still quite high 60-85M (3rd in NFL of 2023 with the high end of 85M after restructures/cuts/extensions if need be)
Mighty Ive always found you to be a man of reason who looked for the answers without letting bias cloud your judgment most of the time. I would ask you to take some time and take a closer look at the overthecap numbers I pointed out for other NFL teams along with our own cap space next year and beyond . I think you will quickly realize we can most certainly add a big contract or two in addition to Barkley and Jones without it upsetting the apple cart (should we so desire). In fact it would be very much in line with the NFL landscape of many current playoff teams.
You have to avoid the illusion of cap space created by looking too far out. In 2024 there are 14 teams with over a $100 million in cap space. It's safe to say when teams get close to 2024 those numbers will be drastically smaller.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2023, 09:07:53 AMYou have to avoid the illusion of cap space created by looking too far out. In 2024 there are 14 teams with over a $100 million in cap space. It's safe to say when teams get close to 2024 those numbers will be drastically smaller.
Is it an illusion to believe that we can add a big contract or 2 in addition to DJ/and Barkley and sign our core guys when their contracts come up?
Ive done the math and its workable very much within the parameters of what many of the competing teams do.
No one is saying go buck wild and sign every big FA on the market here but a potential trade for a bigger money WR (since FA is pretty barren in quality #1 options) and maybe a big fish signing at CB or maybe some other D position is well within our ample cap space parameters without causing some crazy mortaging of the future.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 12, 2023, 09:06:51 AMHe is not a #1, he would be a solid addition to our room, but I would not pay him close to WR1 money.
Im open to all options that could make sense. With that said, if he was added in addition to a true #1 that could work.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 12, 2023, 09:03:00 AMDo the cap math... we can keep those guys and still have money to sign other players.
Just look at Dallas who had to trade Cooper because of the Elliott cap hit.
Again it's going to come down to Barkley or big money WR. Which do you choose?
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 12, 2023, 09:46:10 AMJust look at Dallas who had to trade Cooper because of the Elliott cap hit.
Again it's going to come down to Barkley or big money WR. Which do you choose?
You didnt do the math thats an assumption not based on the numbers at all. Do some due diligence before making a statement. Spend the time do the cap math and report back.
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 12, 2023, 10:02:12 AMYou didnt do the math thats an assumption not based on the numbers at all. Do some due diligence before making a statement. Spend the time do the cap math and report back.
What due diligence have you done? Explain how you have come to your conclusion, other than looking at cap figures before the next two offseasons occur, and before decisions are made on Jones and Barkley?
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 12, 2023, 09:39:27 AMIs it an illusion to believe that we can add a big contract or 2 in addition to DJ/and Barkley and sign our core guys when their contracts come up?
Ive done the math and its workable very much within the parameters of what many of the competing teams do.
No one is saying go buck wild and sign every big FA on the market here but a potential trade for a bigger money WR (since FA is pretty barren in quality #1 options) and maybe a big fish signing at CB or maybe some other D position is well within our ample cap space parameters without causing some crazy mortaging of the future.
BF, you are certainly free to believe what you want to believe. I am mindful, like any young team that is on the rise, the cap is going to be consumed in a good way (retaining homegrown talent). It's likely to start with DJ and Barkley, but soon, the big contract will be going to Thomas, Dexter, and McKenzie. You should also look at Ed's Giants free agent list. There are more than a few starters that are free agents who will need to be re-signed or repleaced
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2023, 10:13:52 AMBF, you are certainly free to believe what you want to believe. I am mindful, like any young team that is on the rise, the cap is going to be consumed in a good way (retaining homegrown talent). It's likely to start with DJ and Barkley, but soon, the big contract will be going to Thomas, Dexter, and McKenzie. You should also look at Ed's Giants free agent list. There are more than a few starters that are free agents who will need to be re-signed or repleaced
Yup Rich I am mindful too which is why I believe it may be 'just' one big contract or two at key need areas in addition to DJ/Saquan. It would put us in very similar situations as the many of the other playoff teams in terms of cap management/allocation.
Guess we'll see and we can leave it at that...
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 12, 2023, 09:06:51 AMHe is not a #1, he would be a solid addition to our room, but I would not pay him close to WR1 money.
And the article even acknowledges this! ;) ;) ;)
Orlovsky ranks the play-off QBs. I think his rank of DJ will surprise some folks and, I expect will be controversial.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35413498/ranking-nfl-playoff-quarterbacks-2023-dan-orlovsky-stacks-strengths-weaknesses-all-14
As a tease, this is what he said about Jones:
QuoteJones attacks the middle of the field really well, showing some high-end ball placement. His 75.9% completion rate on throws between the hashes ranks second in the NFL. And he has become a rushing asset for the Giants' offense, picking up just shy of 600 yards with his feet in 2022.
I do wonder if his "good" is good enough, though. Can Jones carry the Giants to a string of playoff wins? The supporting cast doesn't have the same talent as other NFC contenders, so Jones will have to take over at times.
You'll have to click through to see where he is ranked and who is above and below him. :P
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 11, 2023, 08:02:54 PMThanks I edited the syntax to clarify.
The point was that you can structure contracts with higher cap hits in year 2 (2024) vs year 1 (2023) because 2024 is an obscenely high 179M cap space vs the still quite high 60-85M (3rd in NFL of 2023 with the high end of 85M after restructures/cuts/extensions if need be)
Mighty Ive always found you to be a man of reason who looked for the answers without letting bias cloud your judgment most of the time. I would ask you to take some time and take a closer look at the overthecap numbers I pointed out for other NFL teams along with our own cap space next year and beyond . I think you will quickly realize we can most certainly add a big contract or two in addition to Barkley and Jones without it upsetting the apple cart (should we so desire). In fact it would be very much in line with the NFL landscape of many current playoff teams.
It seems you operate on the premise that people who disagree with you must be clouded by some type of bias.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 12, 2023, 01:06:55 PMOrlovsky ranks the play-off QBs. I think his rank of DJ will surprise some folks and, I expect will be controversial.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35413498/ranking-nfl-playoff-quarterbacks-2023-dan-orlovsky-stacks-strengths-weaknesses-all-14
As a tease, this is what he said about Jones:
You'll have to click through to see where he is ranked and who is above and below him. :P
I think that's about right. I mean any given Sunday him dak and cousins could be interchangeable in my opinion but for 1 game his legs provide a boost those two guys just simply can't do. I might even put him over Lamar or at least have Lawrence and Lamar swap spots. I'm not sure Brady should be up there either that high.
Quote from: kingm56 on January 12, 2023, 01:08:33 PMIt seems you operate on the premise that people who disagree with you must be clouded by some type of bias.
=D>
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 12, 2023, 01:06:55 PMOrlovsky ranks the play-off QBs. I think his rank of DJ will surprise some folks and, I expect will be controversial.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35413498/ranking-nfl-playoff-quarterbacks-2023-dan-orlovsky-stacks-strengths-weaknesses-all-14
As a tease, this is what he said about Jones:
You'll have to click through to see where he is ranked and who is above and below him. :P
I am surprised by where Orlovsky ranked him. Every offseason, I hear Orlovsky on various Giants-themed podcasts, and he has never been a fan of DJ since he was drafted. Orlovsky feels that QBs drafted in round one need to have some sort of trait they are special at that sets them apart from the pack, and he felt that was lacking with DJ. Since then, his assessments of Jones have been more negative than positive each offseason.
I am aware that in the second half of the season, Orlovsky gave a few positive reviews of some of DJ's games, but I didn't realize that Orlovsky had drastically changed his views on Jones.
DJ not satisfied by making the playoffs.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35427945/qb-jones-adamant-giants-not-satisfied-making-playoffs
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 12, 2023, 01:13:08 PMI think that's about right. I mean any given Sunday him dak and cousins could be interchangeable in my opinion but for 1 game his legs provide a boost those two guys just simply can't do. I might even put him over Lamar or at least have Lawrence and Lamar swap spots. I'm not sure Brady should be up there either that high.
I think Jones, Hurts, Dak and Geno Smith are interchangeable. Cousins IMO is better than those four. Though I don't trust any of them in a big game.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2023, 01:24:04 PMI am surprised by where Orlovsky ranked him. Every offseason, I hear Orlovsky on various Giants-themed podcasts, and he has never been a fan of DJ since he was drafted. Orlovsky feels that QBs drafted in round one need to have some sort of trait they are special at that sets them apart from the pack, and he felt that was lacking with DJ. Since then, his assessments of Jones have been more negative than positive each offseason.
I am aware that in the second half of the season, Orlovsky gave a few positive reviews of some of DJ's games, but I didn't realize that Orlovsky had drastically changed his views on Jones.
DJ wasn't the QB that surprised me...it was his #14 selection.
I wonder how Purdy will do under the big lights, he has played great since stepping in.
https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-ranking-all-32-teams-primary-starting-quarterbacks-at-the-end-of-th
DJ is ranked 18th, I think that is a pretty fair placement for him as things currently stand. I would maybe move him a spot or two higher, not sure I agree Purdy (yet), or Fields, should be above him. He probably outperformed Kyler this year as well and played a full slate of games. So I can see him being about 15th or so
"2022 stats: 16 games | 67.2 pct | 3,205 pass yds | 6.8 ypa | 15 pass TD | 5 INT | 708 rush yds | 7 rush TD | 6 fumbles"
"Playing all year to prove he belongs next year, Jones entered Week 17 amid reports the Giants view him as "part of their future in 2023 and beyond." Why not? Along with his heroics on the ground, "Danny Dimes" has improved through the air. In recent weeks, the Giants have run a "more conventional passing offense rather than relying so heavily on bootlegs," per The Athletic's Dan Duggan. Against the Vikings in Week 16, Jones lashed Minnesota for 334 yards, nearly 135 more than his average per game in 2022. One week later against the Colts -- in his final regular-season outing -- he completed all but five of his 24 throws and shredded Indy with 91 yards on the ground, totaling four touchdowns in the process. At last paired with a coach who can refine him, Jones exits the regular season as a functional starter to hang onto."
Quote from: Blue Fire on January 12, 2023, 09:03:00 AMDo the cap math... we can keep those guys and still have money to sign other players.
You state this as fact when the truth is you have no idea what people will command in salary.
Quote from: Trench on January 12, 2023, 02:51:42 PMYou state this as fact when the truth is you have no idea what people will command in salary.
Not to mention we do not know what and/or how many players JS/Dabs plan to try to resign from our in house free agents, and any who may be eligible for extensions.
Without getting into the debate about whether a #1 WR will make a huge impact, as everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I do feel that the more important issue going forward for this team, is to infuse potential pro bowl talent either from the draft or FA into the interior of the offensive line.
Meaning the Center, Left Guard and Right Guard positions.
I believe that will have more of an offensive impact, especially for DJ and Barkley moving forward, than adding a #1 WR at this point.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 12, 2023, 07:47:41 PMWithout getting into the debate about whether a #1 WR will make a huge impact, as everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I do feel that the more important issue going forward for this team, is to infuse potential pro bowl talent either from the draft or FA into the interior of the offensive line.
Meaning the Center, Left Guard and Right Guard positions.
I believe that will have more of an offensive impact, especially for DJ and Barkley moving forward, than adding a #1 WR at this point.
Center absolutely but I believe one of Brederson or EZ will be LG of the future as they are both cheap and under contract. That and maybe we draft a late round prospect to shadow Glow but he'll be RG next year. If we have better center play it'll help Glow as he was in between Feliciano and a rookie so he didn't necessarily have it easy.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 12, 2023, 07:47:41 PMWithout getting into the debate about whether a #1 WR will make a huge impact, as everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I do feel that the more important issue going forward for this team, is to infuse potential pro bowl talent either from the draft or FA into the interior of the offensive line.
Meaning the Center, Left Guard and Right Guard positions.
I believe that will have more of an offensive impact, especially for DJ and Barkley moving forward, than adding a #1 WR at this point.
Ezeudu was a fairly high third round pick. And round 3 is usually a sweet spot for IOL. I dont think they give up adding talent to the position but hopefully Bredeson gets to play one of those spots. Hes been borderline very good in the midst of a lot of sub par play this year from the interior spots. Gates if he is truly back to 100% is a much better option at Center than Feliciano.
Interesting article about how the NFL people seem to think Jones' price tag just keeps rising
https://www.bigblueview.com/2023/1/13/23552633/ny-giants-daniel-jones-price-tag-continues-to-skyrocket-free-agency-rumors
Most are saying Jones' annual price will be in the $32 million to $36 million range (up from the low 20s a month ago)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2023, 08:40:41 AMInteresting article about how the NFL people seem to think Jones' price tag just keeps rising
https://www.bigblueview.com/2023/1/13/23552633/ny-giants-daniel-jones-price-tag-continues-to-skyrocket-free-agency-rumors
Most are saying Jones' annual price will be in the $32 million to $36 million range (up from the low 20s a month ago)
They may end up needing to franchise him in order to keep him, if that's what they want to do. I doubt his agent will go for the modest 2 year deal some have bandied about, when there is every likelihood that someone is going to be willing to go 35-40 million for 4 years.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 13, 2023, 09:15:27 AMThey may end up needing to franchise him in order to keep him, if that's what they want to do. I doubt his agent will go for the modest 2 year deal some have bandied about, when there is every likelihood that someone is going to be willing to go 35-40 million for 4 years.
It's funny, at the time, deciding on extending the 5th year option to DJ was a gamble either way. Schoen opted not to extend, and unfortunately for the Giants, it appears that JS guessed wrong. That low 20s 5th-year option is looking awful attractive right now. Of course, in fairness, it wasn't like anyone was saying that Schoen was making a mistake at the time of the decision. Joe seemed to have made the best choice based on the information that was available at the time.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 12, 2023, 07:47:41 PMWithout getting into the debate about whether a #1 WR will make a huge impact, as everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I do feel that the more important issue going forward for this team, is to infuse potential pro bowl talent either from the draft or FA into the interior of the offensive line.
Meaning the Center, Left Guard and Right Guard positions.
I believe that will have more of an offensive impact, especially for DJ and Barkley moving forward, than adding a #1 WR at this point.
I'm not so sure you need pro bowl talent at those positions just players who are good enough and have chemistry with the rest of the group. Always go back to the 08-10 lines where the only true elite player on those lines was Snee.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2023, 08:40:41 AMInteresting article about how the NFL people seem to think Jones' price tag just keeps rising
https://www.bigblueview.com/2023/1/13/23552633/ny-giants-daniel-jones-price-tag-continues-to-skyrocket-free-agency-rumors
Most are saying Jones' annual price will be in the $32 million to $36 million range (up from the low 20s a month ago)
I wouldn't go near those numbers for Jones based upon who and what I believe he is but I've accepted that it's likely to be in that range. I am just hoping it's not a deal that goes beyond 3 years.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 13, 2023, 09:24:19 AMI'm not so sure you need pro bowl talent at those positions just players who are good enough and have chemistry with the rest of the group. Always go back to the 08-10 lines where the only true elite player on those lines was Snee.
I wouldn't go near those numbers for Jones based upon who and what I believe he is but I've accepted that it's likely to be in that range. I am just hoping it's not a deal that goes beyond 3 years.
I think the Giants will go with a 4-year deal that is structured in a way that will allow the team to walk away after 2 years without a major cap hit. Unfortunately, for
@Blue Fire (who wants some big outside FA signings this offseason) to structure such a deal means that the contract will not be backloaded, which means bigger cap hits earlier.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 13, 2023, 09:24:19 AMI'm not so sure you need pro bowl talent at those positions just players who are good enough and have chemistry with the rest of the group. Always go back to the 08-10 lines where the only true elite player on those lines was Snee.
I wouldn't go near those numbers for Jones based upon who and what I believe he is but I've accepted that it's likely to be in that range. I am just hoping it's not a deal that goes beyond 3 years.
Hi
I agree,and I'm not trying to be critical here but I did say "infuse potential pro bowl talent", so players that could "potentially" be pro bowlers not necessarily that they are.
Okay I'm off to work carry on
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 13, 2023, 09:15:27 AMThey may end up needing to franchise him in order to keep him, if that's what they want to do. I doubt his agent will go for the modest 2 year deal some have bandied about, when there is every likelihood that someone is going to be willing to go 35-40 million for 4 years.
If he looks terrible in Minny that will throw some ice water on this.
He wins a playoff game or more and yea this can jump and the Giants will have a hard time explaining how they just walked away from it then
I will expand on how I envision DJ's contract.
1) Contracts are about the total dollar amount and the guaranteed money
2) I would expect there to be a smaller signing bonus but guaranteed salary for the first two seasons (salary guarantees count 100% in the year they are paid
3) I would expect a roster bonus in year 3 and years 3 and 4 not having a guaranteed salary
So if the team walked away after year 2, there would be a cap hit from the pro-rated signing bonus, but it would be offset by his salary and not paying the roster bonus so that the hit would be manageable.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2023, 09:58:20 AMI will expand on how I envision DJ's contract.
1) Contracts are about the total dollar amount and the guaranteed money
2) I would expect there to be a smaller signing bonus but guaranteed salary for the first two seasons (salary guarantees count 100% in the year they are paid
3) I would expect a roster bonus in year 3 and years 3 and 4 not having a guaranteed salary
So if the team walked away after year 2, there would be a cap hit from the pro-rated signing bonus, but it would be offset by his salary and not paying the roster bonus so that the hit would be manageable.
I agree with your premise even though I'm hoping it's a shorter deal. Something like 3yr 100 million with 50 million guaranteed and only a 5 million signing bonus. The basic structure of the Carr deal where we can get out at any time and Jones can save face by saying each years earnings would be at the franchise tag at 33 million.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2023, 09:58:20 AMI will expand on how I envision DJ's contract.
1) Contracts are about the total dollar amount and the guaranteed money
2) I would expect there to be a smaller signing bonus but guaranteed salary for the first two seasons (salary guarantees count 100% in the year they are paid
3) I would expect a roster bonus in year 3 and years 3 and 4 not having a guaranteed salary
So if the team walked away after year 2, there would be a cap hit from the pro-rated signing bonus, but it would be offset by his salary and not paying the roster bonus so that the hit would be manageable.
Well thought out, Rich. As you know, I've been advocating for the franchise tag for a month now. My rationale is the Giants are going to have substantial cap space next season; so, they can absorb the cap hit. Plus, a $31M cap hit might be close to traditional contract cost. I might be wrong, but I don't believe our Giants have a desire to sign DJ to more than 3 years; the rub is I don't think DJ will accept a contract for less than 5 years. A Franchise tag evades both land mines, while simultaneously allowing
the Giants to see if he can duplicate this season both in health and performance. Thoughts?
Quote from: kingm56 on January 13, 2023, 03:06:33 PMWell thought out, Rich. As you know, I've been advocating for the franchise tag for a month now. My rationale is the Giants are going to have substantial cap space next season; so, they can absorb the cap hit. Plus, a $31M cap hit might be close to traditional contract cost. I might be wrong, but I don't believe our Giants have a desire to sign DJ to more than 3 years; the rub is I don't think DJ will accept a contract for less than 5 years. A Franchise tag evades both land mines, while simultaneously allowing
the Giants to see if he can duplicate this season both in health and performance. Thoughts?
Matt,
I think QB is a unique position in some ways. While I appreciate that it's been done this way, I am not a big fan of keeping a QB on a year-to-year basis. One prove-it year is reasonable, but after that, you need to crap or get off the pot (as they say). So either you commit to at least 3 more years (4 is more likely) or move on from the guy.
If you tag Jones, I think you are sort of hamstringing him a bit in terms of leadership. On top of that, you are sort of leaving your team in a state of flux. Personally, I would prefer to see the Giants let Jones walk and start their replacement efforts than keep him around on another 1-year deal.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2023, 03:20:12 PMMatt,
I think QB is a unique position in some ways. While I appreciate that it's been done this way, I am not a big fan of keeping a QB on a year-to-year basis. One prove-it year is reasonable, but after that, you need to crap or get off the pot (as they say). So either you commit to at least 3 more years (4 is more likely) or move on from the guy.
If you tag Jones, I think you are sort of hamstringing him a bit in terms of leadership. On top of that, you are sort of leaving your team in a state of flux. Personally, I would prefer to see the Giants let Jones walk and start their replacement efforts than keep him around on another 1-year deal.
Rich,
Good perspective on the negative byproduct of a franchise tag; indeed, if leadership isn't truly committed, neither will they players DJ seeks to lead. Still, I'd advocate for the franchise tag, vice 4+/$30M plus year deal.
I wouldn't be opposed to the franchise tag if it came down to that or a long term deal that paid Jones $30-$35 million a season. It would give Jones another season to prove himself.
If DJ can replicate this season, with an increase in TDs, on a tag, I would be more in favor of bringing him back.
Guys,
Who knows, maybe DJ will play under the tag next year. For me, I think you have to consider the following:
Last offseason, the team told DJ no security of the 5th year option, and that he would have to prove himself.
DJ starts to prove himself.
At the bye, JS could have likely locked DJ in on a 3-year deal in the 20s; JS passed on negotiations and wanted DJ to continue to prove himself.
DJ proved himself and got his team into the playoffs.
Barring some sort of epic meltdown on Sunday, it seems time to pay the piper.
https://twitter.com/dduggan21/status/1614013518415802368
Just Win Baby.
If he does then he will be justly rewarded with both money and prestige
Quote from: Trench on January 13, 2023, 10:02:27 PMJust Win Baby.
If he does then he will be justly rewarded with both money and prestige
After 63 pages of speculation about DJ, someone finally got the right answer.
Bill
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2023, 05:33:06 PMGuys,
Who knows, maybe DJ will play under the tag next year. For me, I think you have to consider the following:
Last offseason, the team told DJ no security of the 5th year option, and that he would have to prove himself.
DJ starts to prove himself.
At the bye, JS could have likely locked DJ in on a 3-year deal in the 20s; JS passed on negotiations and wanted DJ to continue to prove himself.
DJ proved himself and got his team into the playoffs.
Barring some sort of epic meltdown on Sunday, it seems time to pay the piper.
To be fair Rich I don't think how Jones plays on Sunday should impact how the Giants view him. It's not as if he's had multiple playoff games where he's played poorly and needs a great performance to justify himself. Eli's first playoff game (though it was in just his 2nd not 4th season) was a disaster.
I have been of the belief that you look at Jones's entire NFL career and based off your decision on that rather than a few good or bad games.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 14, 2023, 08:29:07 AMTo be fair Rich I don't think how Jones plays on Sunday should impact how the Giants view him. It's not as if he's had multiple playoff games where he's played poorly and needs a great performance to justify himself. Eli's first playoff game (though it was in just his 2nd not 4th season) was a disaster.
I have been of the belief that you look at Jones's entire NFL career and based off your decision on that rather than a few good or bad games.
I think the decision on Jones is done and dusted and only a career threatening injury tomorrow would potentially change it.
I do think though that the terms of the deal could change based on what happens tomorrow as well as beyond, should they win tomorrow. I mean if he has an absolutely brutal game tomorrow and they lose 10-6, there's surely a difference between that and if they make it to the NFC championship game with two wins where he played well and then he plays well in the loss in the championship game. He'll get paid more if the latter happen for sure.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 14, 2023, 08:29:07 AMTo be fair Rich I don't think how Jones plays on Sunday should impact how the Giants view him. It's not as if he's had multiple playoff games where he's played poorly and needs a great performance to justify himself. Eli's first playoff game (though it was in just his 2nd not 4th season) was a disaster.
I have been of the belief that you look at Jones's entire NFL career and based off your decision on that rather than a few good or bad games.
How do you look at a quarterback's entire career? Take, for example, Josh Allen. His first two years were very ordinary and his next two were elite. How did you factor in those first two seasons when you evaluated Allen after his 4th season?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2023, 09:50:22 AMHow do you look at a quarterback's entire career? Take, for example, Josh Allen. His first two years were very ordinary and his next two were elite. How did you factor in those first two seasons when you evaluated Allen after his 4th season?
Josh Allen was treated how Jones was treated at the beginning of this season. He was coddled and not allowed to run the offense wide open. Sure they came out swinging in Jacksonville and then in Seattle but for the most part at the beginning of the season I truly believe they had Jones on a pitch count. No way he has 12 games with 27-31 throws if he's not on a pitch count. Daboll did the same with Allen his first two years, taught him to win within the system to build his confidence until they got to a point they were winning because of Allen not just with him if that makes sense.
Just my opinion though
If this is what Daniel Jones is moving forward. I will gladly change my opinion. Let's get this win first!!!!
https://twitter.com/Connor_J_Hughes/status/1614789070483509248
https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1614790578419687426
https://twitter.com/Giants/status/1614792135764492288
He played the best game of his career by far today
1-0 in the playoffs, I will give him credit. That record is more important than anything before it
https://twitter.com/ggabefootball/status/1614750250811416577
https://twitter.com/SNYGiants/status/1614796726350528513
https://twitter.com/Giants/status/1614787835403423744
Lol the NY media getting upset because Daboll said Jones played good. The reporter was like just good? Daboll was like isn't good, good? And the reporter was kinda dumbfounded.
https://twitter.com/SNYGiants/status/1614789254680379392
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 15, 2023, 08:54:40 PMLol the NY media getting upset because Daboll said Jones played good. The reporter was like just good? Daboll was like isn't good, good? And the reporter was kinda dumbfounded.
He did add this
https://twitter.com/SNYGiants/status/1614791120881438720
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 15, 2023, 08:54:40 PMLol the NY media getting upset because Daboll said Jones played good. The reporter was like just good? Daboll was like isn't good, good? And the reporter was kinda dumbfounded.
He should have said, "I apologize. I should have said, 'He played *well*' instead of 'played good' for all the grammar police out there." =)) =)) =))
I am officially off the fence with Daniel Jones. Much like I saw with Phil Simms (I think it started with Simms in the 49ers comeback) in the Giants' first Super Bowl year, I have seen Daniel Jones take that next step over the past month and become a franchise QB.
Quote from: T200 on January 15, 2023, 09:02:36 PMHe should have said, "I apologize. I should have said, 'He played *well*' instead of 'played good' for all the grammar police out there." =)) =)) =))
Lol...don't start that again😂😂
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 15, 2023, 09:11:19 PMI am officially off the fence with Daniel Jones. Much like I saw with Phil Simms (I think it started with Simms in the 49ers comeback) in the Giants' first Super Bowl year, I have seen Daniel Jones take that next step over the past month and become a franchise QB.
Very good analogy
Quote from: T200 on January 15, 2023, 09:02:36 PMHe should have said, "I apologize. I should have said, 'He played *well*' instead of 'played good' for all the grammar police out there." =)) =)) =))
I just thought it was funny because Daboll didn't understand what he did wrong and the reporter was waiting for some awe inspiring comments and Daboll was like oh he played good lol.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 15, 2023, 09:11:19 PMI am officially off the fence with Daniel Jones. Much like I saw with Phil Simms (I think it started with Simms in the 49ers comeback) in the Giants' first Super Bowl year, I have seen Daniel Jones take that next step over the past month and become a franchise QB.
Yeh, I am with you. :ok:
https://twitter.com/Connor_J_Hughes/status/1614953871377584128
Jones was outstanding yesterday in a winning effort in a road playoff game, and I also feel he played very well down the back stretch of the season when he was really needed the most. I thought he was good in the win in Washington, the close loss in Minnesota, and certainly the big playoff clinching win against the Colts. And then he capped it off with what I am comfortable calling an elite performance yesterday.
While one could say that his receivers were very open yesterday and that he had a clean pocket most of the night, I thought when he did face pressure he handled it well, and his running was also outstanding. And he also really didn't make a single poor throw all night that I can remember. He may have had some throwaways, but some of those I thought were very smart where in past years they might have been forced balls that were picks.
Jones stayed healthy all year and raised his game in Dec/Jan, and he played a big role in his team getting to the playoffs and delivering a road playoff win against a 13-4 team. He also showed great improvement this year on the leadership and confidence fronts.
I want to bring him back. However I don't think the current euphoria should cloud judgment about price. Don't just throw some crazy contract at him. The thing is though, if we were to put our foot down and not meet his price, other teams will 100% be interested. So there is that to think about. And while the tag is an option, all that really is is a can kick where the Giants only really benefit if he stinks next year or gets badly hurt. They'll just end up being on the hook for more money if he does it again next year.
If anything I would tag Barkley and possibly consider letting him test the market after next season, as RBs begin to age out at 27.
As I said last night best game of his career last night. He was absolutely outstanding.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 16, 2023, 07:19:51 AMAs I said last night best game of his career last night. He was absolutely outstanding.
I think after the Colts game, where DJ was outstanding, most of us were asking "can DJ play better than this?"
Well, the answer's been served to us on a silver platter;
YES.
@DaveBrown74 I think the "well, we should bring him back if the price is the right ship has sailed." Daniel Jones put the team on his back and advanced his team to the next round. That is exactly what a franchise QB is supposed to do, and now the team is going to have to pay for their franchise QB.
Consider some of these quotes from the NY Post article.
Quote"He walked in and people were chanting, 'DJ' when he walked in," Leonard Williams said. "He's like a hero in here right now. You could just see the confidence spewing out of him right now. I think we wouldn't want anyone else to lead us right now."
QuoteJohn Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
"To me, it was the poise," Mara said. "That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he's in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don't care how many times they score, we're gonna score more."
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
"It was a while ago I think ... he just keeps getting better and better every week," Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman's help) and said: "Hey I can't screw up everything, I gotta get something right."
QuoteKid brother Chris Mara: "We got somebody going forward."
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: "The world."
A fighter. A battlefield commander.
"I know we have an elite quarterback," Saquon Barkley said, "but we also got amazing players around him, too, so we got his back no matter what."
https://nypost.com/2023/01/16/daniel-jones-proves-himself-to-be-qb-giants-dreamed-of/
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 16, 2023, 07:19:51 AMAs I said last night best game of his career last night. He was absolutely outstanding.
Play your best in the biggest game :ok:
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 16, 2023, 07:26:52 AMI think after the Colts game, where DJ was outstanding, most of us were asking "can DJ play better than this?"
Well, the answer's been served to us on a silver platter; YES.
Jones was always capable and had put together really good games. The issue was there would only be 3-4 of them max each season. He just needed to bring those games more consistently.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 16, 2023, 07:26:58 AM@DaveBrown74 I think the "well, we should bring him back if the price is the right ship has sailed." Daniel Jones put the team on his back and advanced his team to the next round. That is exactly what a franchise QB is supposed to do, and now the team is going to have to pay for their franchise QB.
Consider some of these quotes from the NY Post article.
https://nypost.com/2023/01/16/daniel-jones-proves-himself-to-be-qb-giants-dreamed-of/
Two years ago Josh Allen signed a 6 year $258mm ($43mm/yr) contract with a $150mm guarantee. Since the numbers go up each year, if we are price-insensitive, that could easily be the number with Jones, maybe more. Would you be good with spending that type of money on him given he has only really played at this high of a level for several games and has only had one season out of four where he has not had a significant injury? Keep in mind, barring cap acrobatics that would wipe out most of our available cap space for next season and we do have plenty of other needs.
Personally, I think if we give him that type of contract, we're going to need to think long and hard about cutting Williams. Or possibly having a rethink about Barkley. I know nobody wants to think about these types of decisions, but something will have to give somewhere. To let either Thomas or Lawrence walk next year would be a travesty.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 16, 2023, 07:54:59 AMTwo years ago Josh Allen signed a 6 year $258mm ($43mm/yr) contract with a $150mm guarantee. Since the numbers go up each year, if we are price-insensitive, that could easily be the number with Jones, maybe more. Would you be good with spending that type of money on him given he has only really played at this high of a level for several games and has only had one season out of four where he has not had a significant injury? Keep in mind, barring cap acrobatics that would wipe out most of our available cap space for next season and we do have plenty of other needs.
Personally, I think if we give him that type of contract, we're going to need to think long and hard about cutting Williams. Or possibly having a rethink about Barkley. I know nobody wants to think about these types of decisions, but something will have to give somewhere. To let either Thomas or Lawrence walk next year would be a travesty.
The Giants could have given DJ the 5th year option, but they didn't. They could have signed him at the bye, but they didn't. Now the team has to pay market value for a franchise QB, and they are not cheap. The one leverage they have left is the franchise tag that went from looking kind of expensive earlier in the year to now looking like a bargain.
We often talk about how it's easier to build a team if they hit on a drafted rookie QB and use the savings to build. Well, the reality is the team simply has to hit on the draft with TWO of the premium-priced positions like CB, WR, OT, and Edge to create the savings to keep on competing. I don't see how this team lets DJ walk, and I don't think the Giants want the disadvantages of just tagging their "leader."
The Giants will sign Jones and likely keep Barkley, and they will be shopping for bargains in free agency. The talent influx will mostly be from the 11 picks in the draft. That is not a bad way to build a team, in my opinion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 16, 2023, 08:05:51 AMThe Giants could have given DJ the 5th year option, but they didn't. They could have signed him at the bye, but they didn't. Now the team has to pay market value for a franchise QB, and they are not cheap. The one leverage they have left is the franchise tag that went from looking kind of expensive earlier in the year to now looking like a bargain.
We often talk about how it's easier to build a team if they hit on a drafted rookie QB and use the savings to build. Well, the reality is the team simply has to hit on the draft with TWO of the premium-priced positions like CB, WR, OT, and Edge to create the savings to keep on competing. I don't see how this team lets DJ walk, and I don't think the Giants want the disadvantages of just tagging their "leader."
The Giants will sign Jones and likely keep Barkley, and they will be shopping for bargains in free agency. The talent influx will mostly be from the 11 picks in the draft. That is not a bad way to build a team, in my opinion.
No, and that is the way Schoen has said he wants to build the team.
It will be interesting to see where they land with Jones. I think using the tag makes more sense with a player you're still not sure about, as it gives you the optionality to move on after one more year. You can also tag a player a second time (albeit it's more expensive). Given the way RBs age out after 27/28 typically, tagging Barkley might make more sense than tagging Jones. Sure, tagging Jones saves you a little bit of money in 2023, but it doesn't save you in the long run unless you think there is a viable chance you are going to let him walk after 2023. I would think they lock him up this year at whatever price they can. It will just be interesting if they decide to throw Josh Allen type money at him (or more). As good as he has been in the last 3-4 weeks, I wouldn't say he had an elite year.
Clearly each week he plays well in this Dec/Jan stretch though he helps himself financially, which is perfectly fair.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 16, 2023, 08:13:19 AMNo, and that is the way Schoen has said he wants to build the team.
It will be interesting to see where they land with Jones. I think using the tag makes more sense with a player you're still not sure about, as it gives you the optionality to move on after one more year. You can also tag a player a second time (albeit it's more expensive). Given the way RBs age out after 27/28 typically, tagging Barkley might make more sense than tagging Jones. Sure, tagging Jones saves you a little bit of money in 2023, but it doesn't save you in the long run unless you think there is a viable chance you are going to let him walk after 2023. I would think they lock him up this year at whatever price they can. It will just be interesting if they decide to throw Josh Allen type money at him (or more). As good as he has been in the last 3-4 weeks, I wouldn't say he had an elite year.
Clearly each week he plays well in this Dec/Jan stretch though he helps himself financially, which is perfectly fair.
DB,
If I were the GM, I don't think I would want to tag Barkley. Frankly, in my opinion, tagging Barkley is basically screwing him over. Barkley played out the 5th year option, and this offseason is likely to be his only one where he can cash in. The Giants tag him, and it will be much harder to get a good contract the following year due to his age. I think the fairest thing to do with Barkley is to have Schoen make his best offer and if it's not enough for Barkley, let him walk so he can make his money. Finding RBs in the draft is much easier than finding a QB, so resource allocation needs to take that into consideration.
Again, Jones is our leader and face of the franchise. The very first thing he said to the TEAM after the game was "let's come back ready to work".....this indicates to me he is more likely to take the Tom Brady approach and not break the bank and allow the $$ to be spread around. I believe this to be his character. His character is the one thing everyone agreed upon from day one and I don't see that changing now.
He will be extremely unselfish and team friendly within the scope of his negotiations. Guaranteed.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 16, 2023, 08:13:19 AMNo, and that is the way Schoen has said he wants to build the team.
It will be interesting to see where they land with Jones. I think using the tag makes more sense with a player you're still not sure about, as it gives you the optionality to move on after one more year. You can also tag a player a second time (albeit it's more expensive). Given the way RBs age out after 27/28 typically, tagging Barkley might make more sense than tagging Jones. Sure, tagging Jones saves you a little bit of money in 2023, but it doesn't save you in the long run unless you think there is a viable chance you are going to let him walk after 2023. I would think they lock him up this year at whatever price they can. It will just be interesting if they decide to throw Josh Allen type money at him (or more). As good as he has been in the last 3-4 weeks, I wouldn't say he had an elite year.
Clearly each week he plays well in this Dec/Jan stretch though he helps himself financially, which is perfectly fair.
I think it'll be fair negotiating with Jones having had 1 good season out of 4 with the injury history and knowing that daboll/kafka pair is a huge part of it, I would think him and Barkley both take less to stay in help build the team up to compete long term.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fmmq8mOXEAEIM9X?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: Trench on January 16, 2023, 10:12:08 AMAgain, Jones is our leader and face of the franchise. The very first thing he said to the TEAM after the game was "let's come back ready to work".....this indicates to me he is more likely to take the Tom Brady approach and not break the bank and allow the $$ to be spread around. I believe this to be his character. His character is the one thing everyone agreed upon from day one and I don't see that changing now.
He will be extremely unselfish and team friendly within the scope of his negotiations. Guaranteed.
Did you hear what he said in the post game on field interview?
"We're just a tough group, tough competitive like we've been all year. We're gonna compete for 60 minutes and play good, smart football, just to give ourselves a chance. We're confident in what we've got and we'll keep working."
"Now you're gonna go to Philly, what's it gonna take?"
"Another clean game. We'll prepare this week, have a good week of prep, and go out there and expect to play well".
This is a guy that just tries to do the simple stuff right, including staying humble.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 16, 2023, 10:24:37 AMI think it'll be fair negotiating with Jones having had 1 good season out of 4 with the injury history and knowing that daboll/kafka pair is a huge part of it, I would think him and Barkley both take less to stay in help build the team up to compete long term.
He really broke out last 5 games this season. Very encouraging.
love the photo with DJ and the Defense!!!!! It says a lot about TEAM.
https://twitter.com/scottpioli51/status/1615012040979976194
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 16, 2023, 11:37:30 AMHe really broke out last 5 games this season. Very encouraging.
I agree completely.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 16, 2023, 11:37:30 AMHe really broke out last 5 games this season. Very encouraging.
Ed, do you account for the opponent? I think it's fair to note his only 300+ yard passing games was against the NFLs 31st ranked passing def. For context, this team had allowed 9x 300 yard passers, including K. Murray and M. White. The other game was against the NFLs second worst team. None of this is meant to detract from DJs wonderful performances; however, I don't believe the last 5 weeks is an indication DJ should get the same contract as Allen, Mahomes, etc. I believe the Giants will look at his season in the aggregate; this includes if he throws 4 picks against Phili. The latter shouldn't reduce his contract offer as yesterday's performance shouldn't increase it.
Rich brought up some GREAT points against the franchise tag; however, I firmly believe this is the best COA moving forward.
On an unrelated note, is anyone concerned about the type of offense DJ runs? The Giants run their QB...A LOT; DJs a tough SOB, but I don't like the increased percentages of him being injured.
To be clear, DJ was amazing yesterday and I couldn't be happier for him and his family! Despite his play, I don't envy the Giants and the decision they have to make.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 16, 2023, 11:37:30 AMHe really broke out last 5 games this season. Very encouraging.
Reminds me a lot of Eli. He would turn it up when it was counting the most.
Here were DJ's numbers from last night.
24/35 301 Yards 2 TD 0 Int 81.2 QBR 114.1 Rating
78 Yards rushing
He did this in a playoff game, on the road in a hostile environment, and wasn't fazed one bit.
We need to remember, Eli was 27 years old in his 4th year, DJ is only 25 in his 4th year, he's two years younger.
Shannon Sharpe called DJ just a few weeks ago a "JAG", clearly, he was wrong.
Nick Wright said DJ wasn't good, clearly, he was wrong.
Dan Orlovsky said DJ wasn't a good QB, now he is saying he is a problem solver, clearly, he was wrong.
DJ is blossoming right before our eyes, and he is doing it in the NY Media market which has vilified him these past four years.
Congrats to DJ
Quote from: kingm56 on January 16, 2023, 02:42:09 PMEd, do you account for the opponent? I think it's fair to note his only 300+ yard passing games was against the NFLs 31st ranked passing def. For context, this team had allowed 9x 300 yard passers, including K. Murray and M. White. The other game was against the NFLs second worst team. None of this is meant to detract from DJs wonderful performances; however, I don't believe the last 5 weeks is an indication DJ should get the same contract as Allen, Mahomes, etc. I believe the Giants will look at his season the aggregate; this includes if he throws 4 picks against Phili.
Rich brought up some GREAT points against the franchise tag; however, I firmly believe this is the best COA moving forward.
On an unrelated note, is anyone concerned about the type offense DJ runs? The Giants run their QB...A LOT; DJs a tough SOB, but I don't like the the increased percentages of him being injured.
To be clear, DJ was amazing yesterday and I couldn't be happier for him and his family! Despite his play, I don't envy the Giants and the decision they have to make.
For the last 5 games he's been playing at a high level. Including Philly and Washington. They took what the Defense was giving them. You have to count his rushing totals which account for not just yardage but first downs. You have to account for protecting the ball and minimizing turnovers. His leadership in the huddle and the locker room.
I'm well aware of the competition and I'm well aware of the 185 yards after catch but DJ did hit them in stride and produced almost 400 yards of Offense. He beat Rodgers, Cousins, Lawrence and Jackson. That's some pretty good company. He's playing at the level of a 6-10 QB.
The Offensive Line gave him that extra second he needs to process the routes and he made good decisions.
The Franchise Tag is the bar here. They know what he can and can't do and he has an adequate supporting staff around him in talent. Nothing great. He doesn't have the Philly Oline or Philly- Dallas' Receivers. I would sign him to a three year deal for 90MM and 60MM guaranteed. Face the facts, he's improved exponentially over the course of this season.
Now some smart DC will figure out that they need to cover the 0-10 yard area and figure out this Offense but he's still going to win 9-10 games a season. He's a better regular season QB than Eli was and if they can get into the playoffs they have a chance.
He has a ceiling and we've discussed it to death. There isn't a QB in this draft that will be an upgrade over him and I don't think that I want Jackson, Jimmy G or Derek Carr over him. There are 4-5 QB's in this league who are better than him right now and they will get the $50MM a year. As long as Brian Daboll is his HC, he's going to be a productive QB. The time to nit pick Daniel Jones has past. At least for this year.
https://twitter.com/nflpinnaclebeat/status/1615035564075679749
https://twitter.com/danschneiernfl/status/1615027970497708033
I take that back, Nick Wright has decided to double down on his position that DJ is still not a good QB.
He then proceeds to say he only threw 15 TDs on the year, and completely dismisses the 7 rushing TD's he brought to the table.
You can see the clip here, if you go to the 3:10 time stamp
Nick Wright clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jK_FBp6T4s)
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 16, 2023, 07:54:59 AMTwo years ago Josh Allen signed a 6 year $258mm ($43mm/yr) contract with a $150mm guarantee. Since the numbers go up each year, if we are price-insensitive, that could easily be the number with Jones, maybe more. Would you be good with spending that type of money on him given he has only really played at this high of a level for several games and has only had one season out of four where he has not had a significant injury? Keep in mind, barring cap acrobatics that would wipe out most of our available cap space for next season and we do have plenty of other needs.
Personally, I think if we give him that type of contract, we're going to need to think long and hard about cutting Williams. Or possibly having a rethink about Barkley. I know nobody wants to think about these types of decisions, but something will have to give somewhere. To let either Thomas or Lawrence walk next year would be a travesty.
IF we retain DJ and Saquon which is most likely going to eat up 50M annually, looking forward to 2024, we have about 179.8 M in cap space. We should have about 125M in cap space leftover taking into consideration what they are going to eat up in the cap which is not too bad really.
I would put a base salary for DJ of 30M with incentives in the contract that if meets annually, can hit up to around 40M which is now the avg. salary for the upper tier of QBs.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 16, 2023, 10:24:37 AMI think it'll be fair negotiating with Jones having had 1 good season out of 4 with the injury history and knowing that daboll/kafka pair is a huge part of it, I would think him and Barkley both take less to stay in help build the team up to compete long term.
I'm thinking this as well. Those 2 are practically the face of this franchise.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 16, 2023, 05:18:26 PMI take that back, Nick Wright has decided to double down on his position that DJ is still not a good QB.
He then proceeds to say he only threw 15 TDs on the year, and completely dismisses the 7 rushing TD's he brought to the table.
You can see the clip here, if you go to the 3:10 time stamp
Nick Wright clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jK_FBp6T4s)
That's the problem, people actually listen to this clown and believes he makes a fair assessment.
This clown is the same guy who argued that Lawrence rookie year doesn't count because of who was his head coach last year and should be given rookie of the year this year.
Who has been coaching DJ the past 2 years before Daboll/Kafka got here that actually made him regressed instead of develop as a young player.
Quote from: GMenRF on January 16, 2023, 05:31:41 PMThat's the problem, people actually listen to this clown and believes he makes a fair assessment.
This clown is the same guy who argued that Lawrence rookie year doesn't count because of who was his head coach last year and should be given rookie of the year this year.
Who has been coaching DJ the past 2 years before Daboll/Kafka got here that actually made him regressed instead of develop as a young player.
Exactly. Who the hell is Nick Wright and why should we care about his opinion? I have never heard of him.
Kurt Warner said the Giants should lose by 14 points on the NFL Network pregame coverage yesterday. I await his apology.
https://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1615130070670270464
https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1615121367271194626
https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1615102778149597184
Quote from: TDToomer on January 16, 2023, 06:24:27 PMExactly. Who the hell is Nick Wright and why should we care about his opinion? I have never heard of him.
Kurt Warner said the Giants should lose by 14 points on the NFL Network pregame coverage yesterday. I await his apology.
Kurt is just bitter he had to give way to Eli =))
I didn't know Pitino was a big NFL fan. But I guess he likes our QB:
https://twitter.com/RealPitino/status/1615061512229453824
I thought well of Jones for his career up until about 2 months ago when I finally gave up. The last time I did this was when I finally called it early in the 2007 season when I said the team was just a hodge podge of ill fitting parts...4 DEs?...who has 4 DEs?? The season turned about two weeks later.
For now I'm keeping my opinion of Jones to myself. I am a jinx. Sometimes for the worse but mostly for the better. Keep the crow warm...just in case.
How Giants Daniel Jones DOMINATED vs Vikings
https://youtu.be/EnHB9aDi9eA
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 16, 2023, 04:46:19 PMhttps://twitter.com/danschneiernfl/status/1615027970497708033
If we have a WR like Metcal, DHop, JJ, Diggs thats 6 right there
Wouldn't this just go under the Jones thread like all the other Jones videos? Not sure it can be considered a film study because its literally just a fan rewinding youtube highlights of the vikings game and adding commentary unless "back to the basket playaction fake" and "Jocka" are new terminology that I'm unaware of in analyzing tape. Not to mention the "sucks" "cleetus" and "apologize!!!!" Drawn on the thumbnail.. very professional analysis.
https://twitter.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1615737976327213057
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/64208/respect-for-giants-qb-daniel-jones-is-going-up-around-the-nfl
QB School on DJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCrnYPrdq4w
DJ has steadily improved in his stats since his rookie season until now (where he in flourishing). He has made the right adjustments in his game (especially this year) and has found a comfort zone in this offense under Kafka and Daboll.
Year Atts Compl Yards TDs INTs FUM Lost
2019 459 284 3027 24 12 18 11
2020 448 280 2943 11 10 11 6
2021 361 232 2428 10 7 7 3
2022 472 317 3205 15 5 6 3
Hats off to the perfect blend of right coaching, patience, developing plays that play to his strengths, holding him accountability, and most important, being a leader of this team. You can tell the players and coaches trust him unrevivably.
Pretty much a given at this point that they are already working out a second contract. I don't think there's anyone left who thinks he doesn't. If he hit free agency, teams would be climbing over each other to sign him
This should be in the DJ thread
Sadly, not only is it Nick Wright, but also Colin Cowherd has just come out and said DJ is only a C QB at best.
Not even a C+ or B-, but only a C.
Obviously, he is entitled to his opinion, but DJ is the 7th ranked QB in QBR and 13th in RTG.
He also dismisses his 7 rushing TD's, and over 700 yards rushing.
In any event, I used to like Cowherd, but I'm starting to lose respect for his opinion.
Here is the link to the show down below, let's see what happens Saturday night
Cowherd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDWvouyRSJ0)
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 18, 2023, 11:15:19 PMSadly, not only is it Nick Wright, but also Colin Cowherd has just come out and said DJ is only a C QB at best.
Not even a C+ or B-, but only a C.
Obviously, he is entitled to his opinion, but DJ is the 7th ranked QB in QBR and 13th in RTG.
He also dismisses his 7 rushing TD's, and over 700 yards rushing.
In any event, I used to like Cowherd, but I'm starting to lose respect for his opinion.
Here is the link to the show down below, let's see what happens Saturday night
Cowherd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDWvouyRSJ0)
Goes to show you they don't really watch the games. If they did this clown would clearly see we've really opened up the playbook like a month ago. It's ok if they keep harping at DJ's stats and argue that we won't be a playoff team next year. DJ is more than happy to serve these clowns some crow and humble pie.
Imagine Wan'Dale and possibly another stud WR in this offense. I know it's a pipe dream, but imagine if Schoen trades for Higgins since the Bengals can't pay him, Burrow and Chase at the same time? That quick shot in the back of the endzone, if that's Higgins catching the ball thats a TD.
I watched him ranking the 8 QBs left in the playoffs and of course he had DJ 8th but it was obvious he hates that the Giants are still in the hunt. I find it funny that on Monday after his game all the pundits were saying how good he has become this year but by Wednesday the narrative had changed to well the Vikings are a terrible team so that performance wasn't really that good.
Bill
Quote from: GMenRF on January 19, 2023, 12:57:33 AMGoes to show you they don't really watch the games. If they did this clown would clearly see we've really opened up the playbook like a month ago. It's ok if they keep harping at DJ's stats and argue that we won't be a playoff team next year. DJ is more than happy to serve these clowns some crow and humble pie.
Imagine Wan'Dale and possibly another stud WR in this offense. I know it's a pipe dream, but imagine if Schoen trades for Higgins since the Bengals can't pay him, Burrow and Chase at the same time? That quick shot in the back of the endzone, if that's Higgins catching the ball thats a TD.
With how Jones, Lawrence and Thomas are playing I'm not sure they'll be able to keep Barkley let alone sign Higgins. Wouldn't shock me if Lawrence got close to Aaron Donald money and Jones with how he's playing is going to be in that $35-$40 million AAV range. Giants best bet for a WR is going to have to come via the draft, IMO.
https://twitter.com/snygiants/status/1615902379592880128
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 19, 2023, 06:58:32 AMWith how Jones, Lawrence and Thomas are playing I'm not sure they'll be able to keep Barkley let alone sign Higgins. Wouldn't shock me if Lawrence got close to Aaron Donald money and Jones with how he's playing is going to be in that $35-$40 million AAV range. Giants best bet for a WR is going to have to come via the draft, IMO.
https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
2023 might have little to none wiggle room, but if you look at the 2024 cap space, that's about 179.8M workable cap space. Let say DJ and Saquon take up about 50-53M AAV, we would have about 124.8M still available.
https://overthecap.com/position/left-tackle
Top salary for LT is 23M and 31M for DT, that's 54M AAV if we retain those 2.
This is where Joe will have to work his magic. If he can manage to negotiate with our homegrown talent and take team friendly deals even at 10% discount - that's 100M for our 4 top players. That's 79.8M alloted for the rest of the roster. Hopefully, as what we have seen thus far, the general tendency is that the overall cap space has risen over time which should offset the big hit those guys will take in our the team's cap.
And like I said, at this time, trading for Higgins is a pipe dream that's if we don't take a WR in the early rounds.
For those that point to the Vikings' defensive ranking against the pass, I reviewed the box scores of all the Vikings' games. Jones' performance on Sunday was a top 3 performance against the defense. In fact, the only performance that was clearly better was Dak Prescott's. There were some top QBs like Josh Allen and Aaron Rogers playing.
Quote from: GMenRF on January 19, 2023, 12:57:33 AMGoes to show you they don't really watch the games. If they did this clown would clearly see we've really opened up the playbook like a month ago. It's ok if they keep harping at DJ's stats and argue that we won't be a playoff team next year. DJ is more than happy to serve these clowns some crow and humble pie.
Imagine Wan'Dale and possibly another stud WR in this offense. I know it's a pipe dream, but imagine if Schoen trades for Higgins since the Bengals can't pay him, Burrow and Chase at the same time? That quick shot in the back of the endzone, if that's Higgins catching the ball thats a TD.
Yes the reason why Cowherd has to discount DJs running ability is because if he includes it, it diminishes his nonsensical point.
For instance if we combine his rushing totals and TDs we get almost 4,000 Yards, 22 TDs 5 Int and a 92.5 RTG, and that is without him playing in the last game.
Yet to Cowherd these stats only show a C QB, and this is why I've begun to lose respect for him, and Nick Wright.
And I can see why you call them clowns because that seems to fit there mentality.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2023, 09:34:38 AMFor those that point to the Vikings' defensive ranking against the pass, I reviewed the box scores of all the Vikings' games. Jones' performance on Sunday was a top 3 performance against the defense. In fact, the only performance that was clearly better was Dak Prescott's. There were some top QBs like Josh Allen and Aaron Rogers playing.
I give minimal consideration to the opposing defense's statistical ranking. They are professionals who get paid very well to stop the other team. How well they do that also depends on the offense they face.
Minnesota's defense took on a Giants offense who, ironically enough, is ranked in the bottom half of the league statistically speaking. The Giants played a nearly flawless game. I'm not knocking down their performance because of where the Vikings defense ranks. Kafka had a very good game plan and the players executed it very well.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2023, 09:34:38 AMFor those that point to the Vikings' defensive ranking against the pass, I reviewed the box scores of all the Vikings' games. Jones' performance on Sunday was a top 3 performance against the defense. In fact, the only performance that was clearly better was Dak Prescott's. There were some top QBs like Josh Allen and Aaron Rogers playing.
Good point, and to add to what you are saying DJ did this in his first playoff game, on the road in a hostile environment, and he was phenomenal.
In fact he played a nearly flawless game.
And for these analysts to double down on there position against him, is showing me because of their pride they cannot be wrong.
Once again let us see how this transpires
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 18, 2023, 11:15:19 PMSadly, not only is it Nick Wright, but also Colin Cowherd has just come out and said DJ is only a C QB at best.
The opinions of 2 guys who never had any football role at any level and are simply in search of clicks and eyeballs doesn't make me sad, it amuses me. When it comes to football analysis and knowledge, both those guys are D-.
This is mostly just speculation on my part, but I think the missing ingredient that has raised DJ's game is self-confidence. DJ had flashed most of what we are seeing him do more consistently. It seemed like at some point this season DJ started to believe in himself and his abilities and after that, he really just flourished.
Quote from: GMenRF on January 19, 2023, 08:32:29 AMhttps://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
2023 might have little to none wiggle room, but if you look at the 2024 cap space, that's about 179.8M workable cap space. Let say DJ and Saquon take up about 50-53M AAV, we would have about 124.8M still available.
https://overthecap.com/position/left-tackle
Top salary for LT is 23M and 31M for DT, that's 54M AAV if we retain those 2.
This is where Joe will have to work his magic. If he can manage to negotiate with our homegrown talent and take team friendly deals even at 10% discount - that's 100M for our 4 top players. That's 79.8M alloted for the rest of the roster. Hopefully, as what we have seen thus far, the general tendency is that the overall cap space has risen over time which should offset the big hit those guys will take in our the team's cap.
And like I said, at this time, trading for Higgins is a pipe dream that's if we don't take a WR in the early rounds.
You also have to factor in the Lawrence contract hit and the potential Andrew Thomas contract hit in 2024.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 19, 2023, 09:54:23 AMYes the reason why Cowherd has to discount DJs running ability is because if he includes it, it diminishes his nonsensical point.
For instance if we combine his rushing totals and TDs we get almost 4,000 Yards, 22 TDs 5 Int and a 92.5 RTG, and that is without him playing in the last game.
Yet to Cowherd these stats only show a C QB, and this is why I've begun to lose respect for him, and Nick Wright.
And I can see why you call them clowns because that seems to fit there mentality.
Cowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 10:42:17 AMCowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.
Jess,
I think it's fair to consider DJ's whole career
Rookie year- Jones had a very good rookie season with the exception of turnovers. Jones needed to show he could fix the turnover issue or he could be a bust.
Year 2 and 3- the Judge/Garrett years, yuck
Year 4- If you look at his entire season, he played like a "fringe top 10" (7 QBR and 13 QB rating), if you look at his last 5 games, he played like a fringe top 5 QB. Jones more than fixed his TO issue to the point where he had the lowest INT rate in the league.
Beyond that, you need to look past the stats. You have to consider the affection and respect DJ's coaches and fellow players have for him. That is a good indicator of having the "IT" factor (along with having his best game in the most important game) as well as having the leadership you need from your franchise QB.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 10:42:17 AMCowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.
Hi,
All good points you make, and I agree with you that DJ has flourished these past 5 games, no doubt.
I also agree with you that DJ is playing as a fringe top 10 QB also, another solid point you made.
However, my main issue with Cowherd was that he isn't even giving DJ a B- grade, not even a C+, he's giving him a C grade. Do you think that is reasonable? Especially after the performances that he has delivered as of late?
Just curious then what grade would you give DJ? Do you agree with Cowherd?
Also, I appreciate that we can have this discussion respectfully, it's so far been a pleasure.
Now onto your next points, I also agree with you that he was excellent in the Jacksonville game, no doubt.
I would say that we need to remember DJ was still learning this new offense under Daboll and Kafka, but could it be reasoned that as the year went on, as DJ was getting more comfortable with it, Daboll began to give him more and more reign, and to let him just spin it to see what he could do?
We combine that with the fact that DJ has said in the past, that he now knows what it takes to win in the NFL, and voila we are now seeing the fruits of that labor.
In other words, the DJ that we saw in the beginning of the year, is not the DJ that you are seeing now? What do you think?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 19, 2023, 11:35:55 AMJess,
I think it's fair to consider DJ's whole career
Rookie year- Jones had a very good rookie season with the exception of turnovers. Jones needed to show he could fix the turnover issue or he could be a bust.
Year 2 and 3- the Judge/Garrett years, yuck
Year 4- If you look at his entire season, he played like a "fringe top 10" (7 QBR and 13 QB rating), if you look at his last 5 games, he played like a fringe top 5 QB. Jones more than fixed his TO issue to the point where he had the lowest INT rate in the league.
Beyond that, you need to look past the stats. You have to consider the affection and respect DJ's coaches and fellow players have for him. That is a good indicator of having the "IT" factor (along with having his best game in the most important game) as well as having the leadership you need from your franchise QB.
I understand all of that, what I was referring to is all the posts of the videos that say apologize now, or how could you doubt him, and saying critics were wrong or being unrealistic because just a month ago Daniel had a stretch of 6 games where there was real doubt. From the Seattle game until the first Philly game there were serious problems with this offense and serious question marks about the QB in particular. So after a really great outing the past 5 weeks we can all be really happy that we are thriving as a team while also being grounded and realize there were serious problems with the offense including the Qb for portions of the season because there were. Like I said really happy we found our groove and the offense is functioning at a high level bit we definitely hit some Seattle, detriot, Dallas, and Philly sized pot holes along the way.
Quote from: T200 on January 19, 2023, 10:02:18 AMI give minimal consideration to the opposing defense's statistical ranking. They are professionals who get paid very well to stop the other team. How well they do that also depends on the offense they face.
Minnesota's defense took on a Giants offense who, ironically enough, is ranked in the bottom half of the league statistically speaking. The Giants played a nearly flawless game. I'm not knocking down their performance because of where the Vikings defense ranks. Kafka had a very good game plan and the players executed it very well.
I did think in the moment watching the game that Kafka got a little to cute at points during the game including going back to the Jones running well one to many times, using Breida when Barkley was white hot and barely got any touch etc.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 19, 2023, 12:35:02 PMHi,
All good points you make, and I agree with you that DJ has flourished these past 5 games, no doubt.
I also agree with you that DJ is playing as a fringe top 10 QB also, another solid point you made.
However, my main issue with Cowherd was that he isn't even giving DJ a B- grade, not even a C+, he's giving him a C grade. Do you think that is reasonable? Especially after the performances that he has delivered as of late?
Just curious then what grade would you give DJ? Do you agree with Cowherd?
Also, I appreciate that we can have this discussion respectfully, it's so far been a pleasure.
Now onto your next points, I also agree with you that he was excellent in the Jacksonville game, no doubt.
I would say that we need to remember DJ was still learning this new offense under Daboll and Kafka, but could it be reasoned that as the year went on, as DJ was getting more comfortable with it, Daboll began to give him more and more reign, and to let him just spin it to see what he could do?
We combine that with the fact that DJ has said in the past, that he now knows what it takes to win in the NFL, and voila we are now seeing the fruits of that labor.
In other words, the DJ that we saw in the beginning of the year, is not the DJ that you are seeing now? What do you think?
I completely agree that he was learning a new offense so that took time, I'm not sure if it was playing calling, him not being comfortable, or them just having a leash on him initially but like I was telling Rich the offense looks completely different in the last 5 games than the 6 game stretch from Detroit to the first Philly game. The national media probably don't watch a ton of Giants games and for most of them are probably going off of our more high profiled meetings in Dallas, Philly, Seattle etc and so to change a narrative around Jones that he's had for 4 years will likely take longer than 5 games.
I like to think there are flows to a season and at the beginning of the season Jones was doing his part in our wins so I'd give him a B for the early portion and then a C for the Detriot to first Philly stretch, and then an A for the final stretch. Like I said above it's hard to know what took him or the offense so long to click whether they were being held back or what, but if they opened up the playbook all season like they have the past 5 games I believe the perception of Jones would have already changed but because it's just now a lot of people will assume the team just got hot instead of Jones maturation in the offense. I can see both sides but obviously see the progression he's made week to week and think the way he played last week is his longterm outlook going forward. That's not to say I wouldn't feel more conformable if he goes out and repeats the Vikings performance on a really good Philly defense.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 12:50:04 PMI understand all of that, what I was referring to is all the posts of the videos that say apologize now, or how could you doubt him, and saying critics were wrong or being unrealistic because just a month ago Daniel had a stretch of 6 games where there was real doubt. From the Seattle game until the first Philly game there were serious problems with this offense and serious question marks about the QB in particular. So after a really great outing the past 5 weeks we can all be really happy that we are thriving as a team while also being grounded and realize there were serious problems with the offense including the Qb for portions of the season because there were. Like I said really happy we found our groove and the offense is functioning at a high level bit we definitely hit some Seattle, detriot, Dallas, and Philly sized pot holes along the way.
I wrote something similar in response to the receivers having a great game against Minny. Essentially, the comments and criticisms that were made at the time they were made were valid and legit. Same with Jones.
Now it appears the light is on and he's processing and playing at a much more efficient and productive rate. Rich mentioned Daniel's self confidence and I agree that he has a different look in his eye and pocket presence. He seems to be more comfortable and not rushed.
I believe he's turned the corner. The harsh reviews and questions were appropriate at the time they were made. Now? Not so much.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 12:50:04 PMI understand all of that, what I was referring to is all the posts of the videos that say apologize now, or how could you doubt him, and saying critics were wrong or being unrealistic because just a month ago Daniel had a stretch of 6 games where there was real doubt. From the Seattle game until the first Philly game there were serious problems with this offense and serious question marks about the QB in particular. So after a really great outing the past 5 weeks we can all be really happy that we are thriving as a team while also being grounded and realize there were serious problems with the offense including the Qb for portions of the season because there were. Like I said really happy we found our groove and the offense is functioning at a high level bit we definitely hit some Seattle, detriot, Dallas, and Philly sized pot holes along the way.
In the end, it appears (not absolutely certain, but it is looking that way) that the critics were wrong about Jones. I think the issue is how reasonable those positions were. Considering that Schoen passed on Jones' 5th year option and brought in Tyrod Taylor on a 2-year deal, I am having a hard time saying the critic's positions were unreasonable as clearly the new people in the building had their doubts.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 18, 2023, 12:40:44 PMThis should be in the DJ thread
I'm the one who posted it so maybe I should explain myself. I posted it in the More Flotsam and Jetsam thread, a thread I created to post to links of videos and articles that some members might not have seen. To date I'm the only one that has posted in the 2 F & J threads, so there was almost no chance that it would devolve into the kind of back and forth that caused this DJ catch-all thread to be necessary.
But more to the point, if you watched the video (I don't know if you did or not) it not only shows JT breaking down some DJ plays it shows JT highlighting the deficiencies of the Vikings secondary. There's been lots of talk about the Vikings poor pass defense, but this video gives specific examples of those deficiencies and how the Giants' play calling exploited them. So in that sense the DJ content was not nearly the whole story. I don't know how much DJ content has to be in a video to consign it to this thread.
Obviously I posted it where I though it should go, and equally obviously the mods disagreed and moved it (I hope they actually watched it before moving it). I'm disappointed that they moved it but I accept that. But I also think the mods are capable of moderating the board without help from thread police.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 19, 2023, 02:19:19 PMI'm the one who posted it so maybe I should explain myself. I posted it in the More Flotsam and Jetsam thread, a thread I created to post to links of videos and articles that some members might not have seen. To date I'm the only one that has posted in the 2 F & J threads, so there was almost no chance that it would devolve into the kind of back and forth that caused this DJ catch-all thread to be necessary.
But more to the point, if you watched the video (I don't know if you did or not) it not only shows JT breaking down some DJ plays it shows JT highlighting the deficiencies of the Vikings secondary. There's been lots of talk about the Vikings poor pass defense, but this video gives specific examples of those deficiencies and how the Giants' play calling exploited them. So in that sense the DJ content was not nearly the whole story. I don't know how much DJ content has to be in a video to consign it to this thread.
Obviously I posted it where I though it should go, and equally obviously the mods disagreed and moved it (I hope they actually watched it before moving it). I'm disappointed that they moved it but I accept that. But I also think the mods are capable of moderating the board without help from thread police.
What you quoted, was in a topic that was not created by you, and was in response to the topic creator
See post #998, that was the original message of another topic, and what you quoted was a post in that topic before it rightfully got moved here.
So honestly, no, I did not see your video, nor have I opened the Flotsam topic you speak of, so honestly I have no clue what you are on about in this post. But my post was not directed at you, so I was not "policing" your post(s).
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 19, 2023, 03:08:19 PMWhat you quoted, was in a topic that was not created by you, and was in response to the topic creator
See post #998, that was the original message of another topic, and what you quoted was a post in that topic before it rightfully got moved here.
So honestly, no, I did not see your video, nor have I opened the Flotsam topic you speak of, so honestly I have no clue what you are on about in this post. But my post was not directed at you, so I was not "policing" your post(s).
It's certainly possible I had a brain fart. I was sure I had posted the QB School video in the Flotsam thread. Perhaps I got confused as to which post "This" referred to since there was no indication. So I'll apologize since I was probably at fault.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 19, 2023, 03:16:14 PMIt's certainly possible I had a brain fart. I was sure I had posted the QB School video in the Flotsam thread. Perhaps I got confused as to which post "This" referred to since there was no indication. So I'll apologize since I was probably at fault.
State_property created a thread that was referring to Jones improving year on year and that's what TrueBlue was referring to when he said it should be in the Jones thread.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 03:37:13 PMState_property created a thread that was referring to Jones improving year on year and that's what TrueBlue was referring to when he said it should be in the Jones thread.
Thanks for clearing that up. Obviously I was confused. I've apologized to TrueBlue both publicly and privately. And expressed my admiration for certain posts he's made. ;)
Quote from: T200 on January 19, 2023, 01:11:54 PMI wrote something similar in response to the receivers having a great game against Minny. Essentially, the comments and criticisms that were made at the time they were made were valid and legit. Same with Jones.
Now it appears the light is on and he's processing and playing at a much more efficient and productive rate. Rich mentioned Daniel's self confidence and I agree that he has a different look in his eye and pocket presence. He seems to be more comfortable and not rushed.
I believe he's turned the corner. The harsh reviews and questions were appropriate at the time they were made. Now? Not so much.
I agree with this assessment 100x over. The game has started to slow down for Jones. He is not locking on WRs and he is processing quick and aware of the chains and internal clock. He deserved all of the criticism which came his way for the results he was putting up but he now also deserves all the heaps of praise he is being given.
Last week was a big test. This week is an even bigger one.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 01:04:49 PMI completely agree that he was learning a new offense so that took time, I'm not sure if it was playing calling, him not being comfortable, or them just having a leash on him initially but like I was telling Rich the offense looks completely different in the last 5 games than the 6 game stretch from Detroit to the first Philly game. The national media probably don't watch a ton of Giants games and for most of them are probably going off of our more high profiled meetings in Dallas, Philly, Seattle etc and so to change a narrative around Jones that he's had for 4 years will likely take longer than 5 games.
I like to think there are flows to a season and at the beginning of the season Jones was doing his part in our wins so I'd give him a B for the early portion and then a C for the Detriot to first Philly stretch, and then an A for the final stretch. Like I said above it's hard to know what took him or the offense so long to click whether they were being held back or what, but if they opened up the playbook all season like they have the past 5 games I believe the perception of Jones would have already changed but because it's just now a lot of people will assume the team just got hot instead of Jones maturation in the offense. I can see both sides but obviously see the progression he's made week to week and think the way he played last week is his longterm outlook going forward. That's not to say I wouldn't feel more conformable if he goes out and repeats the Vikings performance on a really good Philly defense.
Hi,
I would just say that we need to remember almost every QB who played against the Eagles struggled this year, with the lone exception being Dak Prescott.
Prescott was phenomenal against them, over 347 Yards and a 124 Rating.
So, I think we need to temper our expectations with regards to how DJ will perform against them this weekend, but if he is able to put up solid numbers against them on Saturday, then we really have something special.
Let's see how this transpires.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 19, 2023, 04:21:04 PMThanks for clearing that up. Obviously I was confused. I've apologized to TrueBlue both publicly and privately. And expressed my admiration for certain posts he's made. ;)
No worries 🤜
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2023, 10:42:17 AMCowherd has always been real with his opinion and can you blame him? Until the last 5 games can you say Jones was really wowing anyone, I can't. Yes he has flourished the past 5 games and Cowherd acknowledges that but doesn't ignore the past 3 1/2 years of football, he also sees the Daboll effect especially on Josh Allen now that he's not there and realizes coaching is a real thing. There is no denying Jones is playing like a fringe top 10 Qb right now but those games were against the Commanders who he is always comfortable with, a dysfunctional Colts teams, and a Vikings team with the worst passing D twice. He still did what was asked but to act like he's now the end all be all for beating bad teams and calling out critics is a little rushed. Do I think he's the immediate future yes, but the beginning and middle of this season were still huge question marks about him as a Qb. I'm glad he's come on, but we can't all act like he was doing this all season because he wasn't, yes he was taking care of the ball but our 1st half offense was nonexistent for most of the season besides the Jacksonville game, and we had trouble Sustaining a drive much less multiple, so I'm excited for his growth, and glad it's showing, but still think we can be a little grounded in realizing that he just started flashing a hand full of games ago and before that he was definitely still a question mark.
My gripe with Cowherd is basically he is saying that DJ is nothing but an "average" type player - athleticism and arm talent wise.
He's always had that talent because if not they would not be calling design runs for him. He's shown us that even his rookie year - his legs has always been a part of his skillset. Arm talent wise, wouldn't you agree that DJ has at least above average arm talent? Just the throws he made vs the Vikes - that sideline throw to Hodgins sliding to his left or even that throw to Slayton at the corner of the endzone. Dan pointed out in their breakdown with Nick that he put the a catachable ball for Slayton to make a play without having his feet set to step into the throw. If we had a stud WR that may even be 6.
What DJ has not had is competent coaching and it shows on the tape. There were plays where the defense were baiting DJ into throws that might lead to turnovers and he simply looked away. Not forcing the ball or trying to play hero ball in the endozne on a close game. Even taking the sack while trying to milk the clock to end the game - those are high IQ plays for him. That's what this coaching staff has developed into DJ.
Has DJ reached his ceiling? I would argue not yet. Let's keep in mind we are still in year 1 of a new offensive scheme and with sub standard talent at WR. Our offense can only continue to get better when we get more pieces to run the scheme and with better familiarity with the scheme.
I really wonder what would have happened if Joe Judge hadn't been fired at the end of last season. I think that was a real possibility. If Joe hadn't done that 15-minute meltdown rant and perhaps not run those QB sneaks, he could have returned for another season. Would Jones have flourished under Kitchens or whoever Judge brought in as the new OC?
I suspect things would have gone in a very different direction with Jones out (and looking for a chance to compete with another team) and the Giants being a top 5 drafting team looking at this year's crop of draftable QBs. Not sure if the Giants would have been able to hire Schoen if he was saddled with Judge as his HC.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 20, 2023, 09:19:26 AMI really wonder what would have happened if Joe Judge hadn't been fired at the end of last season. I think that was a real possibility. If Joe hadn't done that 15-minute meltdown rant and perhaps not run those QB sneaks, he could have returned for another season. Would Jones have flourished under Kitchens or whoever Judge brought in as the new OC?
I suspect things would have gone in a very different direction with Jones out (and looking for a chance to compete with another team) and the Giants being a top 5 drafting team looking at this year's crop of draftable QBs. Not sure if the Giants would have been able to hire Schoen if he was saddled with Judge as his HC.
95% of those close wins we coached our way into would have been losses, and we would all be screaming for our preference of Young, Stroud, Levis and co with the #3-4 overall pick.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 20, 2023, 09:19:26 AMI really wonder what would have happened if Joe Judge hadn't been fired at the end of last season. I think that was a real possibility. If Joe hadn't done that 15-minute meltdown rant and perhaps not run those QB sneaks, he could have returned for another season. Would Jones have flourished under Kitchens or whoever Judge brought in as the new OC?
I suspect things would have gone in a very different direction with Jones out (and looking for a chance to compete with another team) and the Giants being a top 5 drafting team looking at this year's crop of draftable QBs. Not sure if the Giants would have been able to hire Schoen if he was saddled with Judge as his HC.
I also wonder what would have happened if Mara had recognized how badly he screwed up with Gettleman 2 years earlier and brought in Schoen, who brought in Daboll, in DJ's second year. I'm guessing that by this year DJ would be an MVP candidate. And with a solid roster, the Giants would have been the #1 seed.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 20, 2023, 09:46:59 AM95% of those close wins we coached our way into would have been losses, and we would all be screaming for our preference of Young, Stroud, Levis and co with the #3-4 overall pick.
I am always mindful that player success is equal parts drafting combined with coaching/player development
Judge was a terrible game manager. One of the worst ever. Good riddance
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 20, 2023, 10:08:14 AMI also wonder what would have happened if Mara had recognized how badly he screwed up with Gettleman 2 years earlier and brought in Schoen, who brought in Daboll, in DJ's second year. I'm guessing that by this year DJ would be an MVP candidate. And with a solid roster, the Giants would have been the #1 seed.
I think both Schoen and Daboll needed their full time in Buffalo to become what they are today.
I'm genuinely surprised that no one has made a thread on the similarities to this season and the 2007 season yet so I'll do it without creating a new thread.
*First off Both super bowls are in Arizona.
*Both Qbs on their 4th year that had serious doubt going into the season and turned it around.
*Beat a divisional winner in the wild card that the media wasn't sold on(Bucs/Vikes).
*Beat the #1 seed Divison rival on the road (Cowboys/potentially Eagles)
*NFC championship on the road hostile blue blood match up (Green bay/49ers)
*Super bowl is on Fox like it was in 2007 and we would be heavy underdogs against a KC/Buf/Cincy.
*Giants won the 1st the London game in 2007, and won this season in London.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 20, 2023, 01:04:34 PMI'm genuinely surprised that no one has made a thread on the similarities to this season and the 2007 season yet so I'll do it without creating a new thread.
*First off Both super bowls are in Arizona.
*Both Qbs on their 4th year that had serious doubt going into the season and turned it around.
*Beat a divisional winner in the wild card that the media wasn't sold on(Bucs/Vikes).
*Beat the #1 seed Divison rival on the road (Cowboys/potentially Eagles)
*NFC championship on the road hostile blue blood match up (Green bay/49ers)
*Super bowl is on Fox like it was in 2007 and we would be heavy underdogs against a KC/Buf/Cincy.
*Giants won the 1st the London game in 2007, and won this season in London.
Onwards to the Superb Owl!
If this happens, I would be beyond ecstatic, especially if we also beat Dallas along the way :nanner:
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 20, 2023, 01:04:34 PMI'm genuinely surprised that no one has made a thread on the similarities to this season and the 2007 season yet so I'll do it without creating a new thread.
*First off Both super bowls are in Arizona.
*Both Qbs on their 4th year that had serious doubt going into the season and turned it around.
*Beat a divisional winner in the wild card that the media wasn't sold on(Bucs/Vikes).
*Beat the #1 seed Divison rival on the road (Cowboys/potentially Eagles)
*NFC championship on the road hostile blue blood match up (Green bay/49ers)
*Super bowl is on Fox like it was in 2007 and we would be heavy underdogs against a KC/Buf/Cincy.
*Giants won the 1st the London game in 2007, and won this season in London.
I thought of a few of those scenarios, but not all of them like you brought out, nicely done!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 20, 2023, 01:04:34 PMI'm genuinely surprised that no one has made a thread on the similarities to this season and the 2007 season yet so I'll do it without creating a new thread.
*First off Both super bowls are in Arizona.
*Both Qbs on their 4th year that had serious doubt going into the season and turned it around.
*Beat a divisional winner in the wild card that the media wasn't sold on(Bucs/Vikes).
*Beat the #1 seed Divison rival on the road (Cowboys/potentially Eagles)
*NFC championship on the road hostile blue blood match up (Green bay/49ers)
*Super bowl is on Fox like it was in 2007 and we would be heavy underdogs against a KC/Buf/Cincy.
*Giants won the 1st the London game in 2007, and won this season in London.
If, against all odds they get there, I hope Coach Dabs has the In-N-Out truck out for lunch, one day. Yes, I'm a littlestitious.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 20, 2023, 01:04:34 PMI'm genuinely surprised that no one has made a thread on the similarities to this season and the 2007 season yet so I'll do it without creating a new thread.
*First off Both super bowls are in Arizona.
*Both Qbs on their 4th year that had serious doubt going into the season and turned it around.
*Beat a divisional winner in the wild card that the media wasn't sold on(Bucs/Vikes).
*Beat the #1 seed Divison rival on the road (Cowboys/potentially Eagles)
*NFC championship on the road hostile blue blood match up (Green bay/49ers)
*Super bowl is on Fox like it was in 2007 and we would be heavy underdogs against a KC/Buf/Cincy.
*Giants won the 1st the London game in 2007, and won this season in London.
Add in...
- Playing the top team (record-wise) in the league close in the season finale (but still losing) with nothing play for, while the opposition had more to gain (Pats 16-0, Eagles #1 overall seed).
Another nugget Road teams in the divisional round of the playoffs have won 4 out of the last 5 games.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fm734zgXEAED6-B?format=png&name=small)
https://twitter.com/The33rdTeamFB/status/1616445694235103232
You can add two more analysts who are minimizing DJ's performance and criticizing him as well.
They are Chris Broussard and Rob Parker
Here is the link
Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k16bJfN23M)
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 20, 2023, 01:04:34 PMI'm genuinely surprised that no one has made a thread on the similarities to this season and the 2007 season yet so I'll do it without creating a new thread.
*First off Both super bowls are in Arizona.
*Both Qbs on their 4th year that had serious doubt going into the season and turned it around.
*Beat a divisional winner in the wild card that the media wasn't sold on(Bucs/Vikes).
*Beat the #1 seed Divison rival on the road (Cowboys/potentially Eagles)
*NFC championship on the road hostile blue blood match up (Green bay/49ers)
*Super bowl is on Fox like it was in 2007 and we would be heavy underdogs against a KC/Buf/Cincy.
*Giants won the 1st the London game in 2007, and won this season in London.
Probably because this season is more 1997 than 2007. The 2022 and 1997 had rookie head coaches taking over horribly flawed teams that kept missing the playoffs. The 2007 was already solid making the playoffs for the 3rd straight season.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 21, 2023, 05:59:32 PMProbably because this season is more 1997 than 2007. The 2022 and 1997 had rookie head coaches taking over horribly flawed teams that kept missing the playoffs. The 2007 was already solid making the playoffs for the 3rd straight season.
how is 1 thing being similar more than 5 things being similar.. doesn't add up.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 21, 2023, 06:12:09 PMhow is 1 thing being similar more than 5 things being similar.. doesn't add up.
Because I am going on the facts. You are going on speculation. If this team makes it to Arizona your analogy will apply.
As good as he's looked for 3 games he is choking horribly tonight. The game is sped up again, locking on receivers and not making good decisions when to run. Looks scared. Very scared.
It's gonna be an interesting contract negotiation
Quote from: Trench on January 21, 2023, 09:59:18 PMAs good as he's looked for 3 games he is choking horribly tonight. The game is sped up again, locking on receivers and not making good decisions when to run. Looks scared. Very scared.
It's gonna be an interesting contract negotiation
Expect him to be back but what he gets will be interesting just hope it's not massive and for the long term
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 21, 2023, 11:45:43 PMExpect him to be back but what he gets will be interesting just hope it's not massive and for the long term
I definitely want him back. The man deserves it after the way he played in the NFL. And he's a great person.
But I want him to be team first and not hold the organization hostage because he needs pieces. And that means he need to share the wealth. I think that is his nature anyhow. The guy won me over. He melted tonight but that's ok. He deserves the chance for sure
The nature of this loss will make it harder for the Giants to get carried away in a state of euphoria and really make it rain dollars on him in an excessive way. Same with Barkley. I actually don't know if Barkley will be back. Appreciate this is a Jones thread though so I won't go into that here. Jones will be back, but last night probably helped control the cost. Jones' regular season numbers will matter again now because the story that he caught fire late in the season and in the playoffs and showed the QB he will be in the future kind of no longer holds water after last night.
I'm not pinning last night on Jones by any means, because everyone on the team played like crap, but as the team leader and a potential face of the franchise, he looked out of sorts out and even a bit cowed out there, and it affected his play. It was a very rough night for him in the biggest game of his life. That's going to make it hard for the Giants to go crazy with his cost. People will certainly remember all the positives and improvement this year, but they will also remember this game all offseason.
I'm
All in on getting Jones back - but it must be at the right cost. If he wants to break the bank then he can be sent packing. I like what I've seen at the end of the season and also a few early plays last night but after he got hit it all changed and he played apprehensive.
I saw a QB lock on receivers again and not step up into the pocket. These were things he overcame late in the season. I think last night was too big for him. He didn't look as verbal in the huddle either. He for some reason didn't really try to run much either.
I hope it becomes a positive learning experience.
I seriously doubt yesterday's game will have any impact on the contract that Jones will be getting with the Giants. The Giants were collectively overwhelmed last night, and there are zero reasons to place the loss on Jones.
The "well, we can have him back if the price is right" train has long left the station. The Giants will be retaining Jones, and it will be at least a 4-year contract, and I think the average per will be $35 million or greater. The only thing I could possibly see (for those who still are not sold on Jones) is that the Giants might structure the contract in a way that the team could bail after a couple of seasons. Although, I think after the Vikings game, even that possibility is less likely.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 08:58:39 AMI seriously doubt yesterday's game will have any impact on the contract that Jones will be getting with the Giants. The Giants were collectively overwhelmed last night, and there are zero reasons to place the loss on Jones.
The "well, we can have him back if the price is right" train has long left the station. The Giants will be retaining Jones, and it will be at least a 4-year contract, and I think the average per will be $35 million or greater. The only thing I could possibly see (for those who still are not sold on Jones) is that the Giants might structure the contract in a way that the team could bail after a couple of seasons. Although, I think after the Vikings game, even that possibility is less likely.
Time will tell. I anticipate he lost millions with that performance last night. He did not play well at all and his decisions reverted back to yesteryear. The reason I believe he lost millions is the same reason I would've said he "gained" millions had he played well and won the game.
I wouldn't pay him anything more than a 4 year deal at 25-27 million per. If he wants more than that I'll take my chances in the draft or Tyrod for a year.
Daniel Jones Discusses Giants Contract, Future After Loss to Jalen Hurts, Eagles
SCOTT POLACEK
JANUARY 22, 2023
There is a chance Saturday's 38-7 loss to the Philadelphia Eagles was the final game of Daniel Jones' time with the New York Giants.
"Like I said, we will cross that bridge when we get there. I really enjoyed playing here," Jones told reporters. "I appreciate all of those guys in the locker room. It is a special group of guys and I have really enjoyed being a part of it."
New York declined the fifth-year option in his rookie contract before the start of the 2022 campaign.
"We will figure out where that goes, but I have nothing but love and respect for this organization and the group of guys in the locker room," he said.
Head coach Brian Daboll told reporters the time will come to discuss Jones' future.
"All these conversations, we're gonna have those," he said. "We've got a long offseason, and there's a time and a place to have those conversations. Tonight's not it."
Daboll also didn't have much positive to say about the quarterback or the rest of the team after the blowout loss to the Eagles.
"Eh, he competed," the coach said of the quarterback, who went 15-of-27 for 135 yards, zero touchdowns and one interception. "Look, we all didn't do a good enough job—that starts with me. Daniel's a competitor. (But) they controlled the game the entire game."
Jones isn't the only notable player and team captain in New York who is hitting free agency after the loss.
Running back Saquon Barkley told reporters he "would love to be a Giant for life" after a bounceback campaign that saw him tally 1,312 yards and 10 touchdowns on the ground to go with 338 receiving yards.
Both Jones and Barkley were integral pieces to the Giants' turnaround under first-year head coach Daboll.
New York entered the season without many expectations after five consecutive losing campaigns. All it did was finish 9-7-1 and defeat the Minnesota Vikings in the Wild Card Round for its first postseason win since it won the Super Bowl during the 2011 season.
Jones in particular was facing plenty of pressure after failing to live up to expectations in his first three seasons after the NFC East team selected him with the No. 6 overall pick of the 2019 NFL draft.
He flashed his potential as a rookie by completing 61.9 percent of his passes for 3,027 yards, 24 touchdowns and 12 interceptions, but he threw just 11 touchdowns to 10 picks in his second year and 10 touchdowns to seven interceptions in his third.
New York decided not to pick up the fifth-year extension on his contract, leaving his future with the team and as a starter very much in doubt.
Jones responded by completing 67.2 percent of his passes for 3,205 yards, 15 touchdowns and five interceptions while adding 708 yards and seven scores on the ground. He expanded his game as more of a dual-threat this season, which also helped open up rushing lanes for Barkley as defenses had to account for both as runners.
It remains to be seen whether Jones, 25, will return to the team that drafted him, but he sure showed enough in his fourth season to merit plenty of consideration after an uneven start to his career.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10062572
What I hear is maybe someone who might have had enough of the Giants organization and what he had to go through in NYC. Could that be?
Speaking a bit in the past tense. Interesting.
If he pushes the envelope too far he may regret it.
I am not sure what Jones said that was objectionable. I mean the Giants didn't exactly treat him well, and the same can be said of a portion of the fanbase
On what the future looks like and how much does he want to remain a New York Giant:
Jones: "I think we will get into that down the road. At this point, this is still very fresh. This season. This loss. It will take some time to regroup and think through that going forward."
On what the future of this team looks like after what they accomplished this year:
Jones: "I think the future of the team is bright. We have a lot of young core guys that made a lot of plays and stepped up and have been huge all year. There is certainly a bright future here."
On what he thinks he proved this year:
Jones: "I don't know what I proved. I think I improved every week. I thought I was consistent throughout the year. There are certainly things I like to have back, especially tonight. I think there are some things I'll go back and look to clean up and improve and grow as a player going forward. I thought overall, I did do that. I grew and improved throughout the year and I will continue to try and do that."
On clarifying whether his offseason goal is to stay with the New York Giants:
Jones: "Like I said, we will cross that bridge when we get there. I really enjoyed playing here. I appreciate all of those guys in the locker room. It is a special group of guys and I have really enjoyed being a part of it. We will figure out where that goes, but I have nothing but love and respect for this organization and the group of guys in the locker room."
I'm done debating Jones, idc who is right or wrong at this point. We can all claim we have the facts and knowledge, I can care less anymore we exhausted the dialogue.
We will see very soon what happens. In Schoen and Dabs I trust.
Regardless, better days are on the horizon
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 10:38:05 AMI am not sure what Jones said that was objectionable. I mean the Giants didn't exactly treat him well, and the same can be said of a portion of the fanbase
On what the future looks like and how much does he want to remain a New York Giant:
Jones: "I think we will get into that down the road. At this point, this is still very fresh. This season. This loss. It will take some time to regroup and think through that going forward."
On what the future of this team looks like after what they accomplished this year:
Jones: "I think the future of the team is bright. We have a lot of young core guys that made a lot of plays and stepped up and have been huge all year. There is certainly a bright future here."
On what he thinks he proved this year:
Jones: "I don't know what I proved. I think I improved every week. I thought I was consistent throughout the year. There are certainly things I like to have back, especially tonight. I think there are some things I'll go back and look to clean up and improve and grow as a player going forward. I thought overall, I did do that. I grew and improved throughout the year and I will continue to try and do that."
On clarifying whether his offseason goal is to stay with the New York Giants:
Jones: "Like I said, we will cross that bridge when we get there. I really enjoyed playing here. I appreciate all of those guys in the locker room. It is a special group of guys and I have really enjoyed being a part of it. We will figure out where that goes, but I have nothing but love and respect for this organization and the group of guys in the locker room."
Its not so much that he said one thing or another but he was very neutral and treated it like a business decision whereas Barkley did a 180 and went with his heart and said how much he wants to be a giant for life. So when you hear both back to back one gives you the vibe they want to be back no matter what and the other doesn't care if they are back. Not saying it's right but I think most ppl had hoped the Qb had saquans response but in reality he owes them nothing and hopefully he tests the free agent market and gets as much as he can for himself.
I never thought I would say this but I think the Giants best bet is to franchise Daniel Jones ride out the 2023 season and take it from there. I would not sign him to an extension.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 22, 2023, 11:01:23 AMIts not so much that he said one thing or another but he was very neutral and treated it like a business decision whereas Barkley did a 180 and went with his heart and said how much he wants to be a giant for life. So when you hear both back to back one gives you the vibe they want to be back no matter what and the other doesn't care if they are back. Not saying it's right but I think most ppl had hoped the Qb had saquans response but in reality he owes them nothing and hopefully he tests the free agent market and gets as much as he can for himself.
I suspect the comments are a bit tied to the position each man finds himself in. If I were the agent of either of these young men I would have advised them to say what they did.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 12:10:13 PMI suspect the comments are a bit tied to the position each man finds himself in. If I were the agent of either of these young men I would have advised them to say what they did.
I think that it would have come down a little better had he not just put up his worst performance of the year.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 22, 2023, 12:17:17 PMI think that it would have come down a little better had he not just put up his worst performance of the year.
As I heard on the Nick and Chris podcast, it was a collective faceplant. No player played well in that game.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 22, 2023, 11:55:24 AMI never thought I would say this but I think the Giants best bet is to franchise Daniel Jones ride out the 2023 season and take it from there. I would not sign him to an extension.
I agree with this if they are to prioritize Jones over Barkley. I don't want to commit to either long term so they nay have to choose.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 12:10:13 PMI suspect the comments are a bit tied to the position each man finds himself in. If I were the agent of either of these young men I would have advised them to say what they did.
As a matter of fact it's less likely what the Giants will bring Barkley back, and Barkley will want the Fans to know that if it was up to him he'd definitely want to be back.
While the story is a lot different with Jones.
It's a chess match at the end of the day. And it's a lot about perception.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 22, 2023, 11:55:24 AMI never thought I would say this but I think the Giants best bet is to franchise Daniel Jones ride out the 2023 season and take it from there. I would not sign him to an extension.
The problem is this: You can Franchise Tag the player, will cost you roughly 32mm in Cap space. And it's not to say that the player will sign the tag. He can sit it out if he wants (unlikely though with these numbers).
But if you were to draft a player or sign one from Free Agency, it would be much harder as either you don't know how the player will develop (draft) or he will cost you a ton of effin money (FA). Unless you are happy with a Tannehill type of player, which we already have inhouse.
So, in some way, we are married to the player...
https://twitter.com/RGIII/status/1617029267589586952
@TrueBlueFan @Rambo89 @GordonGekko80 This is not a rhetorical question. Can any of you remember when franchising a QB for one year proved to be a good thing?
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 22, 2023, 11:55:24 AMI never thought I would say this but I think the Giants best bet is to franchise Daniel Jones ride out the 2023 season and take it from there. I would not sign him to an extension.
I wouldn't be opposed to a tag and trade. If Darnold can get the Jets a 2nd and a 5th then Jones can get us something better.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 12:27:47 PM@TrueBlueFan @Rambo89 @GordonGekko80
This is not a rhetorical question. Can any of you remember when franchising a QB for one year proved to be a good thing?
I guess we need to define what is meant by "a good thing."
Obviously, anyone who tags a QB and then ends up signing him is likely spending more money that way, but they also preserved the option to not get locked down if they weren't sure. Maybe the Cowboys weren't 100% sure with Dak when they tagged him, and then they got more comfortable with the numbers after another season. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not really sure - I think you can argue both.
I think the tag would make sense for Jones if the two sides are far apart. If Jones and his camp want a $40-$45mmm/yr contract and Schoen was thinking something more like $30m, then you could argue that it might make sense to tag him and bulk up at WR and IOL and see if he can play like a $45m/yr QB next year. If he does, then they could end up spending even more on him than if they just meet his demands this year, but they will also feel more sure about him in that case, which (in my opinion at least) is a better scenario for the team than paying a little less, but still a lot, for a QB they're not 100% sure is a top 10 QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 12:27:47 PM@TrueBlueFan @Rambo89 @GordonGekko80
This is not a rhetorical question. Can any of you remember when franchising a QB for one year proved to be a good thing?
what other teams have done is meaningless, let's not look at this in a vacuum, it's about seeing if they can win with him. If they him some WR, OL help and bolster the other skill positions, and it doesn't move the needle much. Then they know they can move on. The debate here is he has no talent. So let them take care of that and see if he does any better.
As it stands now, he has increased his stock, and started to win me over a little down the stretch. However, my meaningless opinion is that he is not worth $35M, maybe Schoen disagrees then okay.
Regardless of what happens or doesn't happen. I trust our coach, GM and FO, and will root for the team to win and succeed regardless.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 22, 2023, 12:52:18 PMI guess we need to define what is meant by "a good thing."
Obviously, anyone who tags a QB and then ends up signing him is likely spending more money that way, but they also preserved the option to not get locked down if they weren't sure. Maybe the Cowboys weren't 100% sure with Dak when they tagged him, and then they got more comfortable with the numbers after another season. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not really sure - I think you can argue both.
I think the tag would make sense for Jones if the two sides are far apart. If Jones and his camp want a $40-$45mmm/yr contract and Schoen was thinking something more like $30m, then you could argue that it might make sense to tag him and bulk up at WR and IOL and see if he can play like a $45m/yr QB next year. If he does, then they could end up spending even more on him than if they just meet his demands this year, but they will also feel more sure about him in that case, which (in my opinion at least) is a better scenario for the team than paying a little less, but still a lot, for a QB they're not 100% sure is a top 10 QB.
Spot on 100% this
Allows them tk be absolutely certain they can win with them, and determine if they should kee building around him, without jeopardizing the future if he is not the answer
https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo/status/1617208087349268480
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 12:27:47 PM@TrueBlueFan @Rambo89 @GordonGekko80
This is not a rhetorical question. Can any of you remember when franchising a QB for one year proved to be a good thing?
Rich, the sample size is pretty small; however, have you considered the reverse? Specifically, how have franchisees performed after giving thier QBs multi-year lucrative deals, based on one (or two) good (not great) seasons. Below is a list of the top 12 highest paid QBs, putting the QBs north of 37 aside, those teams that issued large contracts to non top 8 QBs haven't done well at all. Id prefer the Giants avoid becoming Minn, Tenn, Raiders, etc, which is why I think the franchise tag makes a lot of sense.
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson
Kyler MurrayDeshaun Watson
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Derek CarrMatt Stafford
Dak Prescott
Kirk CousinsJared Goff
Carson WentzMatt Ryan
Ryan TannehillTom Brady
I'm glad Jones clarified his remarks. I had read it in past tense and that was bothersome. I don't fully even understand what franchising tagging a player means and how it is beneficial or not?...but one thing is for sure - we can't put all our eggs in the Jones basket if that means we won't have $$ to get more players because after last night performance there is severe concern (until Jones proves otherwise in the big game next year)
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 22, 2023, 12:25:27 PMThe problem is this: You can Franchise Tag the player, will cost you roughly 32mm in Cap space. And it's not to say that the player will sign the tag. He can sit it out if he wants (unlikely though with these numbers).
But if you were to draft a player or sign one from Free Agency, it would be much harder as either you don't know how the player will develop (draft) or he will cost you a ton of effin money (FA). Unless you are happy with a Tannehill type of player, which we already have inhouse.
So, in some way, we are married to the player...
It's going to cost the Giants that much either way. I'd rather have the flexibility of moving on after the 2023 season than being locked into Jones for the long term.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 22, 2023, 12:25:27 PMThe problem is this: You can Franchise Tag the player, will cost you roughly 32mm in Cap space. And it's not to say that the player will sign the tag. He can sit it out if he wants (unlikely though with these numbers).
But if you were to draft a player or sign one from Free Agency, it would be much harder as either you don't know how the player will develop (draft) or he will cost you a ton of effin money (FA). Unless you are happy with a Tannehill type of player, which we already have inhouse.
So, in some way, we are married to the player...
I don't use the word stupid much, but it would be stupid to not play one year for $32M/yr. Regardless of the next contract you sign, you're never going to make that money back. The $32M is fully guaranteed; if anything, DJ should pray for tag as it's the aperture to maximize your salary...the Kirk Cousins model.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 12:27:47 PM@TrueBlueFan @Rambo89 @GordonGekko80
This is not a rhetorical question. Can any of you remember when franchising a QB for one year proved to be a good thing?
I'm not sure when it ever proved to be a bad thing. It allows the Giants to keep Jones for one more season and for Jones to get a solid contract for 1 season with the chance to earn big money if he has a great 2023 season.
https://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1617267517579489281
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 05:47:40 PMhttps://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1617267517579489281
I'm not sure why this is a big deal, "out of character", or newsworthy in any way. I don't know of any promising young professional in any field who does not have at least a basic understanding of what the future compensation profile in his field looks like. Do people really expect Jones to live under a rock and have zero interest in his financial future?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 22, 2023, 05:56:50 PMI'm not sure why this is a big deal, "out of character", or newsworthy in any way. I don't know of any promising young professional in any field who does not have at least a basic understanding of what the future compensation profile in his field looks like. Do people really expect Jones to live under a rock and have zero interest in his financial future?
Even if some want to call him a great QB (I say he may be a bit above average), he is NOT a "top QB", so at the same time I don't think what they make is very relevant.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 22, 2023, 05:47:40 PMhttps://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1617267517579489281
Is every random Tweet newsworthy? Why should we care what this clown thinks? This is why I am not on Twitter. It turns amateurs into wannabe beat writers.
Per BigBlueView:
Jones said he "didn't think there was much truth" to recent reports that he and the Giants were close to an extension that would keep him with the Giants. He would only say that he has had "positive" conversations with GM Joe Schoen and head coach Brian Daboll.
Jones did admit "I've got a good sense" of what top quarterbacks around the league are making.
Just finished watching the Bengals vs Bills game.
By the way great game by Burrow, and I can now see the difference between DJ and him.
Burrow usually gets rid of the ball in 2-3 seconds, he takes what the defense gives him.
He is a pocket passer and can win from the pocket. He's quite cerebral and spreads the ball around, I really like his game.
Difference yesterday with DJ is that after his first read is taken away, he was just standing there holding the ball too long and allowing the Eagles to pressure and sack him.
This is what he can learn from Burrow, is that after your first read is taken away, just dump it off to your RB and let him get you 5-10 yards on a simple swing pass.
Yesterday DJ was going for too much, he should have just taken what the defense was giving him.
Take those little 5-yard outs and dump offs and milk the clock, spread the ball around, while eating up the clock.
We will have to see if he can make that next jump into the top tier QB's or not? We will have to see how this transpires, especially against the top defenses in the league.
This is what he needs to work on next year if he wants to make the jump to becoming an elite QB. He still needs to learn how to spread the ball around and to get rid of the football quickly while winning from the pocket.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 22, 2023, 08:53:11 PMPer BigBlueView:
Jones said he "didn't think there was much truth" to recent reports that he and the Giants were close to an extension that would keep him with the Giants. He would only say that he has had "positive" conversations with GM Joe Schoen and head coach Brian Daboll.
Jones did admit "I've got a good sense" of what top quarterbacks around the league are making.
I can't say I am shocked. Boomer wasn't known for his insider information.
I have been playing around with a possible contract for DJ.
I think that it will likely be a 5-year deal $200 million with $90 million guaranteed. This is very rough, and I can see give or take on my numbers. DJ's $40 million per season would put him at the same level as Prescott and Stafford (and just behind Carr), but ahead of Cousins and Goff.
The structure would be along these lines:
Year one- Signing bonus $50 M Guaranteed salary $15 M cap hit $25 M
Year two- Guaranteed salary $25 M cap hit $35 M
Year three- Roster bonus $30 M Salary $20 M Cap hit $40 M
Year four- Salary $25 M Cap hit $45 M
Year five- Salary $30 M Cap hit $50 M
The way I structured it, the Giants could walk away after two years and only suffer $30 million in dead cap, but offset by $20 mil in salary, for a net $10 mil cap hit. I also think cap space will be rising, so there is some backloading of the contract. Year 5 is another walkway year or a time to do a new contract if the Giants so desire.
It wasn't Jones' fault they lost the game but he didn't play well in a do or die game and he lost some luster. The after game look on Daboll's face and his immediate comments had reality written all over it.
For Jones it will take a village...
This was my trepidation with him two years ago. He's worked hard and Daboll has masked some of his shortcomings but I see a lot of Dak Prescott in DJ.
I don't see them mortgaging the future for his services.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 10:12:19 AMIt wasn't Jones' fault they lost the game but he didn't play well in a do or die game and he lost some luster. The after game look on Daboll's face and his immediate comments had reality written all over it.
For Jones it will take a village...
This was my trepidation with him two years ago. He's worked hard and Daboll has masked some of his shortcomings but I see a lot of Dak Prescott in DJ.
I don't see them mortgaging the future for his services.
This. I just can't see a path to 40 million that makes anyone comfortable.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 10:12:19 AMIt wasn't Jones' fault they lost the game but he didn't play well in a do or die game and he lost some luster. The after game look on Daboll's face and his immediate comments had reality written all over it.
For Jones it will take a village...
This was my trepidation with him two years ago. He's worked hard and Daboll has masked some of his shortcomings but I see a lot of Dak Prescott in DJ.
I don't see them mortgaging the future for his services.
Jones played well this season and he did so with a mediocre line, a collection of castoff WRs, and a rookie TE who missed games due to injury. It doesn't appear the Jones needs more support than other franchise QBs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 08:37:33 AMI have been playing around with a possible contract for DJ.
I think that it will likely be a 5-year deal $200 million with $90 million guaranteed. This is very rough, and I can see give or take on my numbers. DJ's $40 million per season would put him at the same level as Prescott and Stafford (and just behind Carr), but ahead of Cousins and Goff.
The structure would be along these lines:
Year one- Signing bonus $50 M Guaranteed salary $15 M cap hit $25 M
Year two- Guaranteed salary $25 M cap hit $35 M
Year three- Roster bonus $30 M Salary $20 M Cap hit $40 M
Year four- Salary $25 M Cap hit $45 M
Year five- Salary $30 M Cap hit $50 M
The way I structured it, the Giants could walk away after two years and only suffer $30 million in dead cap, but offset by $20 mil in salary, for a net $10 mil cap hit. I also think cap space will be rising, so there is some backloading of the contract. Year 5 is another walkway year or a time to do a new contract if the Giants so desire.
He isn't as good as Goff or Prescott and shouldn't be paid Stafford money either
Hypothetical:
If you could get the 4th overall pick plus some conditional picks for Jones would you trade him?
Because a ton of teams need a QB and someone has to he willing to trade a significant sum, so why wouldn't we do that to propel our rebuild and then have faith in Daboll/Kafka to find a replacement to produce a similar stat line.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 10:21:15 AMJones played well this season and he did so with a mediocre line, a collection of castoff WRs, and a rookie TE who missed games due to injury. It doesn't appear the Jones needs more support than other franchise QBs.
You're spot on here. However, the village Ed is referring to still needs better 'villagers' as we witnessed Saturday night.
The other franchise QBs have better protection up front and a #1 WR. Jones still needs those.
Quote from: T200 on January 23, 2023, 10:34:41 AMYou're spot on here. However, the village Ed is referring to still needs better 'villagers' as we witnessed Saturday night.
The other franchise QBs have better protection up front and a #1 WR. Jones still needs those.
or we could be like the 49ers and build a proper team from the inside out and have an offensive wizard for A HC then it doesn't matter who your QB is.
Quote from: Trench on January 23, 2023, 10:25:34 AMHe isn't as good as Goff or Prescott and shouldn't be paid Stafford money either
I honestly don't believe there is much of a difference in ability from Jones to Dak. Which is why I am hoping the Giants don't make the same mistake that Dallas did with Dak.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 23, 2023, 10:36:11 AMor we could be like the 49ers and build a proper team from the inside out and have an offensive wizard for A HC then it doesn't matter who your QB is.
I think they have the QB in Jones. Now they need to build up those lines.
https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2023/01/22/2022-nfl-playoffs-daniel-jones-brian-daboll-giants-eagles/
Article on this writers perception of Jones post Eagles game.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 23, 2023, 10:57:35 AMhttps://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2023/01/22/2022-nfl-playoffs-daniel-jones-brian-daboll-giants-eagles/
Article on this writers perception of Jones post Eagles game.
This stuck out to me:
Daboll was asked specifically whether he saw Jones as the (or a) quarterback of the future.
"All these conversations, we are going to have those. We have a long offseason. There is a time and place to have all those conversations and tonight is not it."
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 10:21:15 AMJones played well this season and he did so with a mediocre line, a collection of castoff WRs, and a rookie TE who missed games due to injury. It doesn't appear the Jones needs more support than other franchise QBs.
But he needs more support than the Giants can provide for him if they are paying him 35-40 million, and 12-14 million for Saquon, and re-signing Dex and AT in the next year or so.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 23, 2023, 10:31:49 AMHypothetical:
If you could get the 4th overall pick plus some conditional picks for Jones would you trade him?
Because a ton of teams need a QB and someone has to he willing to trade a significant sum, so why wouldn't we do that to propel our rebuild and then have faith in Daboll/Kafka to find a replacement to produce a similar stat line.
I like the idea in concept, but you can't trade a guy that's not under contract. Much as I love Jones the player, recent events show that the roster still has to be rebuilt almost from top to bottom, and I just don't see them being able to do that if they are paying Jones 35-40 million or more. Nor paying Barkley 12-14 million.
Here's something to think over. Webb had a better game than Jones against the same team with backups. Can Webb and TT hold down the fort? Can the Giants produce a solid run game without SB? Webb, Breida and Brightwell had 129 yards rushing.
I still believe Daboll's decision to sit his starters in week 18 ultimately hurt his team's progress but it's interesting how comparisons can be made from it. Very interesting.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 11:20:11 AMI like the idea in concept, but you can't trade a guy that's not under contract. Much as I love Jones the player, recent events show that the roster still has to be rebuilt almost from top to bottom, and I just don't see them being able to do that if they are paying Jones 35-40 million or more. Nor paying Barkley 12-14 million.
I agree earlier in the thread I had mentioned tag and trade and was expanding on that but you're right. I just don't know how you can build a team paying both of them.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 11:23:18 AMHere's something to think over. Webb had a better game than Jones against the same team with backups. Can Webb and TT hold down the fort? Can the Giants produce a solid run game without SB? Webb, Breida and Brightwell had 129 yards rushing.
I still believe Daboll's decision to sit his starters in week 18 ultimately hurt his team's progress but it's interesting how comparisons can be made from it. Very interesting.
I know most won't like it but I'd prefer them go into the season with Webb, TT, and maybe a Brissett or whoever you can sign as competition and then let Barkley go or tag him for a year and draft a RB with the extra 3rd. I think it's the only way we can build a functional team. If we retain Jones and Barkley we'll be a fringe 8-9 win team every season and won't be able to actually building a long term roster. Think of the powerhouse teams right now, they either already had the team built and got their QB or had a QB on a rookie deal as they built the team.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 23, 2023, 11:49:05 AMI agree earlier in the thread I had mentioned tag and trade and was expanding on that but you're right. I just don't know how you can build a team paying both of them.
Ah, I missed the tag and trade angle. But I doubt they get anything close to a #4 overall pick on a tag and trade because the acquiring team is going to have to sign him for significant money, or just look at it as a one year rental.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 11:23:18 AMHere's something to think over. Webb had a better game than Jones against the same team with backups. Can Webb and TT hold down the fort? Can the Giants produce a solid run game without SB? Webb, Breida and Brightwell had 129 yards rushing.
I still believe Daboll's decision to sit his starters in week 18 ultimately hurt his team's progress but it's interesting how comparisons can be made from it. Very interesting.
Webb? No. Not a chance in hell. He's got moxie but that doesn't win championships without enough talent. He'd be nothing more than a place holder.
And if we're going with a place holder, I'd rather go with Taylor than Webb. Taylor will be cheaper than Jones.
If they decide to go without Jones, I'm good with them having a place holder if they're targeting a QB in the '24 draft.
It will be interesting to compare the proposals that have been made on this thread with what the Giants eventually do. I believe the Giants will be signing Daniel Jones to a long-term contract. I would be moderately surprised if they have him play on the tag. I would be very surprised if the Giants let Jones walk or if they tag and trade him.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 11:13:02 AMBut he needs more support than the Giants can provide for him if they are paying him 35-40 million, and 12-14 million for Saquon, and re-signing Dex and AT in the next year or so.
If they can't afford the upgrades under that plan, I would think Barkley would be the first part they would let go.
Quote from: T200 on January 23, 2023, 10:34:41 AMYou're spot on here. However, the village Ed is referring to still needs better 'villagers' as we witnessed Saturday night.
The other franchise QBs have better protection up front and a #1 WR. Jones still needs those.
Seeing how Schoen solves the number one WR issue will be interesting. Both the draft and the free agency WR classes are not what anyone would call "strong."
https://twitter.com/DDuggan21/status/1617578460226158594
https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1617577056845594625
https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1617575552776536065
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 12:30:24 PMIf they can't afford the upgrades under that plan, I would think Barkley would be the first part they would let go.
In comparison to Jones, Barkley's contract would be small potatoes (but huge potatoes for a RB). I let them both go. Barkley's production should be largely replaceable by a committee. So for me, go all out in building up the roster, play 2023 with Taylor/Webb/? at QB, then draft your QB in 2024 and let him be developed by someone who knows how to do it.
Then win the Superbowl in 2025. ;)
https://twitter.com/PLeonardNYDN/status/1617575143110479872
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 12:48:38 PMIn comparison to Jones, Barkley's contract would be small potatoes (but huge potatoes for a RB). I let them both go. Barkley's production should be largely replaceable by a committee. So for me, go all out in building up the roster, play 2023 with Taylor/Webb/? at QB, then draft your QB in 2024 and let him be developed by someone who knows how to do it.
Then win the Superbowl in 2025. ;)
The only "problem" with this approach is that as you improve the roster talent, the more wins your team will collect and the harder it will be to be in a position to draft that rare elite QB. There is often a factor involving dumb luck, deliberate tanking, or a major season-ending injury (that has a strong negative impact for one season) that is needed to make this plan work.
https://twitter.com/Connor_J_Hughes/status/1617574918832685056
https://twitter.com/Patricia_Traina/status/1617569277867069442
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 12:52:13 PMThe only "problem" with this approach is that as you improve the roster talent, the more wins your team will collect and the harder it will be to be in a position to draft that rare elite QB. There is often a factor involving dumb luck, deliberate tanking, or a major season-ending injury (that has a strong negative impact for one season) that is needed to make this plan work.
Due to the nature of the 6-1 start which underpinned them making the playoffs, and the 3-6-1 finish, which I think more fairly represents their quality, I think it is very likely their record goes down, next year. Playing the season with Taylor/Webb/? at QB won't change that. Against that are the roster improvements. To the extent that roster improvement is from the draft, it generally takes a while for rookies to get up to speed, so I think 8-9 would be the upper area we could reasonably expect. That would put them 14-16 in draft order which could put them in range, possibly with a trade up, to get a guy, if they like him.
But, of course,"The best laid schemes o' Giants an' men / Gang aft a-gley."
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 01:11:56 PMDue to the nature of the 6-1 start which underpinned them making the playoffs, and the 3-6-1 finish, which I think more fairly represents their quality, I think it is very likely their record goes down, next year. Playing the season with Taylor/Webb/? at QB won't change that. Against that are the roster improvements. To the extent that roster improvement is from the draft, it generally takes a while for rookies to get up to speed, so I think 8-9 would be the upper area we could reasonably expect. That would put them 14-16 in draft order which could put them in range, possibly with a trade up, to get a guy, if they like him.
But, of course,"The best laid schemes o' Giants an' men / Gang aft a-gley."
If the Giants had gone Taylor/Webb this season do you believe they would have still gone 9-7-1 and made the playoffs?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 01:20:34 PMIf the Giants had gone Taylor/Webb this season do you believe they would have still gone 9-7-1 and made the playoffs?
Not likely. And while I got excited and enjoyed them getting into the playoffs and winning a game I'm not sure that was the best thing for their long term progress.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 01:23:21 PMNot likely. And while I got excited and enjoyed them getting into the playoffs and winning a game I'm not sure that was the best thing for their long term progress.
I believe such a thing is a mixed bag. On the one hand you draft lower, which makes building more difficult
On the other hand, you attract and retain better free agents because they will come to the Giants to compete rather than just for the money.
It's also not bad to get the younger players some playoff experience.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 01:26:09 PMI believe such a thing is a mixed bag. On the one hand you draft lower, which makes building more difficult
On the other hand, you attract and retain better free agents because they will come to the Giants to compete rather than just for the money.
It's also not bad to get the younger players some playoff experience.
I think it is a major problem for the fans. We heard it right here, "gee our OL isn't that bad, they are improving', and 'see, all we need is a #1 WR because our guys aren't that bad'. I think Schoen & Co. have a more realistic view of things and realize our OL and WRs (and our ILBs) are not good and not up to the standard they need to be to compete with top teams.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 01:23:21 PMNot likely. And while I got excited and enjoyed them getting into the playoffs and winning a game I'm not sure that was the best thing for their long term progress.
Completely disagree. If the feeling is that this will make this regime complacent and get off track with what they're trying to do long term I don't think this Giants regime will operate that way especially after listening to them today.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 23, 2023, 01:30:43 PMI think it is a major problem for the fans. We heard it right here, "gee our OL isn't that bad, they are improving', and 'see, all we need is a #1 WR because our guys aren't that bad'. I think Schoen & Co. have a more realistic view of things and realize our OL and WRs (and our ILBs) are not good and not up to the standard they need to be to compete with top teams.
Schoen did talk about the talent gap between his team and the better teams in the division and playoffs.
I think Tyrod could have easily come close to the 3200 15 and 5. Even if it was 2,900 12 and 7 your still paying 5 million as opposed to 40 million... Is 300 yards and 3 Tds really worth the 35 million extra? That's weere the disconnect is for me because for most of the season Jones averaged less than 200 yards a game and I just can't see that number regardless of who is on the field with him and think yeah, we should definitely give this guy 40 million. We won one game in our division and the Eagles aren't going anywhere, neither are the cowboys, and at some point Washington will find a QB. I just think we are a lot farther off then really all 3 of the other teams in our division.
https://twitter.com/Scott_Spratt/status/1617611087997980673
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 10:12:19 AMIt wasn't Jones' fault they lost the game but he didn't play well in a do or die game and he lost some luster. The after game look on Daboll's face and his immediate comments had reality written all over it.
For Jones it will take a village...
This was my trepidation with him two years ago. He's worked hard and Daboll has masked some of his shortcomings but I see a lot of Dak Prescott in DJ.
I don't see them mortgaging the future for his services.
Ed,
This was a really well thought out post, which in my opinion was one of your best, and I agree with the village aspect.
As for Prescott he completely choked in the 49ers game, he threw two interceptions, but honestly it should have been at least three, and they came at the worst time.
In big games, he doesn't come through, and his play actually hurt his team even with a powerful defense.
Having had a couple days to reflect I believe sitting Jones and the starters against the Eagles 2 weeks ago hurt them a lot more than it helped. This team needs to learn how to win and that was apparent watching Jones panic and lock on receivers for most of the evening.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 10:12:19 AMIt wasn't Jones' fault they lost the game but he didn't play well in a do or die game and he lost some luster. The after game look on Daboll's face and his immediate comments had reality written all over it.
For Jones it will take a village...
This was my trepidation with him two years ago. He's worked hard and Daboll has masked some of his shortcomings but I see a lot of Dak Prescott in DJ.
I don't see them mortgaging the future for his services.
I am not seeing Dak in DJ. I will say, that I see a lot of Dak in Hurts. Much like Dak(in the early part of his career), Hurts is enjoying the fruits of a near-perfect QB environment.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 03:38:20 PMI am not seeing Dak in DJ. I will say, that I see a lot of Dak in Hurts. Much like Dak(in the early part of his career), Hurts is enjoying the fruits of a near-perfect QB environment.
Both mobile QB's
Both Choked in a Big Game.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 23, 2023, 03:46:27 PMBoth mobile QB's
Both Choked in a Big Game.
I don't think I would agree with your assertion that Jones "choked". I think instead of looking at PFF grades for one game, you should look at the INTs and the like (
@Jolly Blue Giant does a great breakdown in the Dak thread). I really don't see any sort of similarities, especially as Jones had the best game of his career against the 13-4 Vikings in his first playoff game, while Dak FINALLY won a playoff game against a team with a losing record (8-9)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 06:10:29 PMI don't think I would agree with your assertion that Jones "choked". I think instead of looking at PFF grades for one game, you should look at the INTs and the like ( @Jolly Blue Giant does a great breakdown in the Dak thread). I really don't see any sort of similarities, especially as Jones had the best game of his career against the 13-4 Vikings in his first playoff game, while Dak FINALLY won a playoff game against a team with a losing record (8-9)
Says the hero's and Goats poster boy.
https://twitter.com/BobPapa_NFL/status/1617676416321212417
We were bottom 1/3 passing in yards, avg, yds/G, and TDs. Teams like the Steelers, Houston, detriot, Washington, Jets, etc beat us In those categories. Besides Jones being efficient which I'm sure that Daboll can make most others efficient what's the draw? What does Jones offer that we can't get from a Brissett, Tyrod, or placeholder? I genuinely would like to know because if Daboll/Kafka can do what we saw them do with Jones this season, aren't they the secret recipe and not Jones? Just because Daboll/Kafka worked a miracle now this kid is worth 40 million. I just want to know what the secret sauce is, what does Jones have that makes him worth 40 million because I don't see it.
Before the season
@DaveBrown74 made an amazing point, Jones has a tendency to have 3 games a season were we are like wow he might be decent and then the rest of the games he's back to being ok. It literally happened again, Jones showed out for a dysfunctional Colts team, and a bad Vikings team and had everyone forgetting about the past 3 seasons. Just like the year before in the superdome against the saints.
I get some people love him and they are welcome to, but I just don't see it, instead I just think Daboll/Kafka did a masterclass on hiding flaws this season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 06:10:29 PMI don't think I would agree with your assertion that Jones "choked". I think instead of looking at PFF grades for one game, you should look at the INTs and the like ( @Jolly Blue Giant does a great breakdown in the Dak thread). I really don't see any sort of similarities, especially as Jones had the best game of his career against the 13-4 Vikings in his first playoff game, while Dak FINALLY won a playoff game against a team with a losing record (8-9)
I'm wondering if the Vikings defense is all time terrible though. I knew they were bad but after the performance against a talented group in Philly maybe the Giants and specifically those WRs weren't as great as they appeared in that game.
I do wonder why Jones didn't run more against Philly. Designed or otherwise. It was clear that anything else he was doing wasn't working.
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 23, 2023, 08:38:40 PMI'm wondering if the Vikings defense is all time terrible though. I knew they were bad but after the performance against a talented group in Philly maybe the Giants and specifically those WRs weren't as great as they appeared in that game.
I do wonder why Jones didn't run more against Philly. Designed or otherwise. It was clear that anything else he was doing wasn't working.
9 QB enjoyed 300+ passing yards against Minn, including K Murray, M White and M Jones. Heck, the latter 2 put up 370 and 380 passing yards. Some fans absolutely viewed the Ind and 2x Minn games a vacuum. I doubt the Giants will...
Quote from: kingm56 on January 23, 2023, 08:52:35 PM9 QB enjoyed 300+ passing yards against Minn, including K Murray, M White and M Jones. Heck, the latter 2 put up 370 and 380 passing yards. Some fans absolutely viewed the Ind and 2x Minn games a vacuum. I doubt the Giants will...
Reminds me of Gettleman looking at the film of the one game where Eli looked incredible after taking over after the 2016 season and declared that he had many years left in him.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 23, 2023, 09:07:15 PMReminds me of Gettleman looking at the film of the one game where Eli looked incredible after taking over after the 2016 season and declared that he had many years left in him.
Yep, it was the Phili game.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2023, 06:10:29 PMI don't think I would agree with your assertion that Jones "choked". I think instead of looking at PFF grades for one game, you should look at the INTs and the like ( @Jolly Blue Giant does a great breakdown in the Dak thread). I really don't see any sort of similarities, especially as Jones had the best game of his career against the 13-4 Vikings in his first playoff game, while Dak FINALLY won a playoff game against a team with a losing record (8-9)
Oh he most certainly did choke.
Just take a look at the interception and running out of bounds instead of throwing it away. He totally choked. Glad we saw it now. He deserves a nice contract and. A chance to be out guy. But it's not on HIS terms. That boat sailed.
I also heard a point today on the WFAN - apparently Jones has trouble winning more than 2 games in a row
Quote from: Trench on January 23, 2023, 09:49:32 PMI also heard a point today on the WFAN - apparently Jones has trouble winning more than 2 games in a row
They won 4 straight in week 4,5,6,and 7. But you keep trying to find all the negatives. But look at the bright side. You may be able to crap all over DJ for the next 3 or 4 years if JS and BD have their way.
Bill
Quote from: Billbrown on January 24, 2023, 05:23:23 AMThey won 4 straight in week 4,5,6,and 7. But you keep trying to find all the negatives. But look at the bright side. You may be able to crap all over DJ for the next 3 or 4 years if JS and BD have their way.
Bill
Bill,
I think it is safe to say Schoen and Daboll don't think Jones choked. Otherwise they wouldn't have shared their desire to and intention to re-sign Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 24, 2023, 06:04:48 AMBill,
I think it is safe to say Schoen and Daboll don't think Jones choked. Otherwise they wouldn't have shared their desire to and intention to re-sign Jones.
I think both can be true. They can privately think he choked but also believe he can improve and be the QB they want/need to win a championship.
Quote from: T200 on January 24, 2023, 08:05:59 AMI think both can be true. They can privately think he choked but also believe he can improve and be the QB they want/need to win a championship.
Tim,
The Eagles game was a total team butt-kicking. As Joe Schoen said, there is a talent gap issue at play. "Choke" implies the pressure was too much for him.
"Choke" is a good description of what we saw with Dak Prescott, where two evenly matched teams met, but the Cowboys lost because of Dak's unforced errors and not coming up big. In the case of the Giants, we had already seen DJ handle high-pressure situations well (something that Dak has had a reputation for not handling). When a team is totally overwhelmed by a more talented team, I don't think there is any way you can single out the play of a given player.
I will also point out that the Giants, in terms of upcoming contract negotiations, would have been served by criticizing Jones' performance against the Eagles. The fact that they didn't blame him (and instead pointed to talent) speaks volumes about what they thought.
Dak and DJ both choked. Dak's was worse because, as you said, the teams were fairly matched.
The Giants were clearly overmatched talent-wise and definitely outcoached. Jones reverted back to last season where he was indecisive and shell-shocked.
Quote from: T200 on January 24, 2023, 08:39:28 AMDak and DJ both choked. Dak's was worse because, as you said, the teams were fairly matched.
The Giants were clearly overmatched talent-wise and definitely outcoached. Jones reverted back to last season where he was indecisive and shell-shocked.
You don't have to go back to last season. The first Dallas game was this same version of DJ. The game ocurring around him looked too fast for him to process.
Not just the 1st Dallas game but the Seattle game and Detriot game as well.
Quote from: Billbrown on January 24, 2023, 05:23:23 AMThey won 4 straight in week 4,5,6,and 7. But you keep trying to find all the negatives. But look at the bright side. You may be able to crap all over DJ for the next 3 or 4 years if JS and BD have their way.
Bill
They were talking about AFTER week 6!
Quote from: T200 on January 24, 2023, 08:39:28 AMDak and DJ both choked. Dak's was worse because, as you said, the teams were fairly matched.
The Giants were clearly overmatched talent-wise and definitely outcoached. Jones reverted back to last season where he was indecisive and shell-shocked.
Tim,
This sums it up perfectly, I agree with you.
Dak absolutely blew it, because if he played a clean game the Cowboys probably would have won that game, as their defense was incredible.
In DJ's case he also choked, but as you and Mighty brought out he was playing on an inferior team.
However even though that was the case, there were certain plays that you could see the Eagles were in his head, and he was not comfortable mentally.
A) On 2nd and 1 instead of just throwing the ball away, he runs out of bounds and loses 5 yards.
B) He tripped over his own lineman's feet not once but twice.
C) He overthrows a wide-open James which could have been a touchdown.
D) He underthrows Slayton by 5 yards on a go route which could have been another touchdown.
E) He overthrows Bellinger on an easy 5 yard out.
Him losing his contacts on the field wasn't his fault either, but that was the type of day it was for the GMEN.
Also, the Giants defense was absolutely atrocious especially on stopping the run, they gave up over 268 yards.
So even if DJ played a perfect game, they still wouldn't have won because they were outmatched talent wise and dominated physically at the point of attack.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 24, 2023, 12:25:54 PMTim,
This sums it up perfectly, I agree with you.
Dak absolutely blew it, because if he played a clean game the Cowboys probably would have won that game, as their defense was incredible.
In DJ's case he also choked, but as you and Mighty brought out he was playing on an inferior team.
However even though that was the case, there were certain plays that you could see the Eagles were in his head, and he was not comfortable mentally.
A) On 2nd and 1 instead of just throwing the ball away, he runs out of bounds and loses 5 yards.
B) He tripped over his own lineman's feet not once but twice.
C) He overthrows a wide-open James which could have been a touchdown.
D) He underthrows Slayton by 5 yards on a go route which could have been another touchdown.
E) He overthrows Bellinger on an easy 5 yard out.
Him losing his contacts on the field wasn't his fault either, but that was the type of day it was for the GMEN.
Also, the Giants defense was absolutely atrocious especially on stopping the run, they gave up over 268 yards.
So even if DJ played a perfect game, they still wouldn't have won because they were outmatched talent wise and dominated physically at the point of attack.
Spot on the money. I would add he also was locked on receivers all night long - something we had not seen in awhile.
https://youtu.be/CqI-M-CnuUc
This was a horrible throw, and one that cannot be excused if one is a franchise guy
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 24, 2023, 02:11:42 PMhttps://youtu.be/CqI-M-CnuUc
This was a horrible throw, and one that cannot be excused if one is a franchise guy
I understand what you are saying, however if you take a look DJ threw the ball when the WR was coming back to him, and Bradburry just timed the route perfectly, by jumping it.
On this interception I don't blame DJ too much, JB just made a great play.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 24, 2023, 02:11:42 PMhttps://youtu.be/CqI-M-CnuUc
This was a horrible throw, and one that cannot be excused if one is a franchise guy
Here is Falato's break down on this play
QuotePhiladelphia sat on the Giants' quick game and even baited the interception throw on the Giants' second drive:
Of course, it had to be James Bradberry (24)...like Michel Jordan, a lot of us took that personally. It was a great play design from Gannon, who sent Chauncey Gardner-Johnson (23) on a nickel blitz with Josh Sweat (94) on the line of scrimmage. Sweat stepped to the line and expanded laterally after seeing Saquon Barkley (26) flare to the flat, which prompted Andrew Thomas (78) and Nick Gates (65) to kick outside, leaving a void in the A-Gap for Garnder-Johnson.
Jones diagnosed the blitz and knew the pre-snap look was Quarters, meaning two-deep safeties with the corners 7 yards off in outside leverage. The blitz was not picked up in the five-man protection package with four rushers, and Jones threw the quick hot route to Slayton. However, Bradberry reacted quickly and closed downhill to intercept Jones. Shortly after, the Eagles scored a touchdown to DeVonta Smith and extend their lead to 14 points with time left in the first quarter.
Bradberry is a very smart cornerback, and I'm not shocked he intercepted Jones in quick game. Jonathan Gannon also used Cover 1 on 28.3 percent of snaps, and the Giants' receivers struggled to consistently separate from one of the best secondaries in the league.
TO THE PART IN BOLD- I guess we shall see what the Giants think. It is safe to say if they agree with your assertion, they will be letting Jones walk without even an effort to re-sign him (you don't retain a QB who you don't believe is a franchise QB).
The link to Falato
https://www.bigblueview.com/2023/1/24/23568806/after-further-review-what-can-we-learn-via-tweets-from-the-loss-to-the-eagles
This is where I feel the coaching was lacking; either from Daboll, Kafka and/or the QB coach. They saw the DBs were aggressive and jumping routes... call for some pump fakes, double moves and take advantage of their aggressiveness.
I'd like to see him develop a little shoulder pump... it doesn't take much for a DB to bite on a QB's movements.
Quote from: T200 on January 24, 2023, 02:36:03 PMThis is where I feel the coaching was lacking; either from Daboll, Kafka and/or the QB coach. They saw the DBs were aggressive and jumping routes... call for some pump fakes, double moves and take advantage of their aggressiveness.
I'd like to see him develop a little shoulder pump... it doesn't take much for a DB to bite on a QB's movements.
Tim,
The team leaned on the quick game for much of the second half of the season to help their weak O-line. The problem is when teams get wise to it. Defenders will jump the routes as Bradberry did. One thing I would like to see the Giants coaches do is to incorporate the screen game into their offense. We frequently saw opposing offenses exploit the Giants' defensive aggressiveness with a well-run screen game. It would be good if the Giants could copy that as an answer to aggressive pass rushes.
Quote from: T200 on January 24, 2023, 02:36:03 PMThis is where I feel the coaching was lacking; either from Daboll, Kafka and/or the QB coach. They saw the DBs were aggressive and jumping routes... call for some pump fakes, double moves and take advantage of their aggressiveness.
I'd like to see him develop a little shoulder pump... it doesn't take much for a DB to bite on a QB's movements.
I don't think that Jones has a pump fake or anything like that in his arsenal.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 24, 2023, 02:44:52 PMI don't think that Jones has a pump fake or anything like that in his arsenal.
https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1615016971963088899
https://twitter.com/AlexWilsonESM/status/1569063900116832256
Great unexpected season. Everybody now loves Jones.....even the Eagles
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=631568&show_all=1#new_tab
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 24, 2023, 02:44:52 PMI don't think that Jones has a pump fake or anything like that in his arsenal.
They have all offseason to work on it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 24, 2023, 02:46:26 PMhttps://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1615016971963088899
https://twitter.com/AlexWilsonESM/status/1569063900116832256
Mighty,
I never like to embarrass or humiliate anyone, as I do think everyone deserves respect, but these two videos you posted could not have been more perfectly timed.
Nicely done!
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 24, 2023, 03:31:16 PMMighty,
I never like to embarrass or humiliate anyone, as I do think everyone deserves respect, but these two videos you posted could not have been more perfectly timed.
Nicely done!
I certainly didn't post those examples with the intention of embarrassing Jess. I intend to try to be fair and accurate in assessing players.
I am mindful that my opinion or assessment doesn't matter much. In the end, the opinions and assessments that matter are Schoen's and Daboll's, and in a few weeks to a few months, we will find out, by their actions, if they think Jones is a franchise QB. If they don't think Jones is a franchise QB, it would be a poor decision to direct millions of cap dollars to him, even if he is just a bridge QB. They already have Tyrod Taylor if they want to go the bridge route.
Very soon we will have the answer to the test question, so to speak.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on January 24, 2023, 03:31:16 PMMighty,
I never like to embarrass or humiliate anyone, as I do think everyone deserves respect, but these two videos you posted could not have been more perfectly timed.
Nicely done!
Not to state the obvious but if Jones had an arsenal of tools including a pump fake there wouldn't be discussions over him being retained. If he had all the tools he would be an elite Qb but he doesn't and isn't. While he might flash occasionally any time something isn't perfect he reverts right back to every single one of his bad habits and there are a lot which were on full display this weekend. So him pump faking it 2 times is great, but do you see him use it regularly I don't? I think a lot of that has to do with him not throwing beyond 10 yards regularly but we saw 2 videos so it has to be in his arsenal....
16th in passing yards
48th!!!!!! in yards per attempt (ok this number factors all passes thrown, but still)
28th in Completion % (see above)
21 in Passing TDs
5th in QB Rush TDs
4th in QB rushing yds
31 in QB Rating
He can run it, but as far as passing in concerned, he is average at best.
Quote from: TrueBlueFan on January 24, 2023, 04:20:16 PM16th in passing yards
48th!!!!!! in yards per attempt (ok this number factors all passes thrown, but still)
28th in Completion % (see above)
21 in Passing TDs
5th in QB Rush TDs
4th in QB rushing yds
31 in QB Rating
He can run it, but as far as passing in concerned, he is average at best.
was going through some of the scouting notes on him as a passer and one was spot on with his assessment in my opinion and this was about him coming out of college and I still think it is spot on.
"Inconsistent. Rhythm player too easily knocked off rhythm. Prone to questionable decision making in the pocket, including forcing throws into traffic and failing to prioritize ball security. Underdeveloped as a big play, clutch operator. Sub-optimal arm strength, although again it's more than adequate enough to make the full array of NFL throws. Can hold the ball in the pocket too long and has not yet developed instincts for the proper time to break the pocket and scramble. Picturesque overall mechanics can be severely compromised by pressure. Often plays blind to edge rushers and underneath zone defenders. Surprising amount of batted balls for a player of his size and experience".
From TD Scouting
After year 4 that's him in a nut shell from a con perspective though hes minimizedthe turnovers.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 24, 2023, 05:30:37 PMwas going through some of the scouting notes on him as a passer and one was spot on with his assessment in my opinion and this was about him coming out of college and I still think it is spot on.
"Inconsistent. Rhythm player too easily knocked off rhythm. Prone to questionable decision making in the pocket, including forcing throws into traffic and failing to prioritize ball security. Underdeveloped as a big play, clutch operator. Sub-optimal arm strength, although again it's more than adequate enough to make the full array of NFL throws. Can hold the ball in the pocket too long and has not yet developed instincts for the proper time to break the pocket and scramble. Picturesque overall mechanics can be severely compromised by pressure. Often plays blind to edge rushers and underneath zone defenders. Surprising amount of batted balls for a player of his size and experience".
From TD Scouting
After year 4 that's him in a nut shell from a con perspective though hes minimizedthe turnovers.
Wow!
Explaining why Daniel Jones' value is at least $35 million
Jordan Raanan
Jan 25, 2023
The New York Giants quarterback is a free agent and is about to get paid
Here are what the experts are saying DJ's contract will look like
QuoteThe Post asked six experts — current or former high-ranking league executives with contract experience, and NFL agents — to determine Jones' value in a market without a middle ground: There is not a multi-year quarterback contract with an average annual salary between $14 million and $29.5 million.
"Several months ago, an extension could've been in the Ryan Tannehill or Kirk Cousins range, and now it could be Dak Prescott or north of that," said former Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum, co-founder of The 33rd Team, a website that features NFL content. "He played exceptionally well and won a road playoff game. He's really earned a massive contract."
All six experts projected Jones' average annual salary will be between Tannehill's $29.5 million (adjusted for the salary-cap inflation since he signed that extension in 2020; a floor of about $33 million), and Prescott's $40 million. One executive projected the right compromise as a four-year deal averaging $30 million to $35 million — so $120 million to $140 million total, including $80 million to $90 million guaranteed.
One agent said his starting point for Jones' negotiation would be $35 million per year — or about the median cost for the Giants to place the salary-cap-restrictive franchise tag on the quarterback to keep him from free agency in 2023 ($32.4 million) and again in 2024 ($38.8 million) if a deal is not reached.
Another way to reach that number would be to negotiate off Jones outplaying Cousins — his "best comparison," a second executive said — in the Giants' playoff win at the Vikings.
more at the link
https://nypost.com/2023/01/26/why-daniel-jones-has-leverage-as-experts-predict-giants-contract/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow&sr_share=twitter&utm_source=NYPSportsTwitter
I'd tag him and make him prove it again next season.
Quote from: T200 on January 26, 2023, 02:08:51 PMI'd tag him and make him prove it again next season.
The article points out if they use the tag on DJ than the tag and leverage it provides can't be used on Barkley (which may or may not be an issue).
The way I look at it, the Giants already made one mistake not extending DJ his 5th-year option, which cost the team $10 million. Who wouldn't be happy to have DJ returning for $23 million next season? Tagging him would seem like a repeat of that mistake because if Jones has another good season, the cost to sign DJ will go up by 20% (what the cap rises for the second go-round).
Finally, the $33 million tag cost is 100% on this year's salary cap, leaving the team $9 million in cap surplus, which isn't all that much to try and close the talent gap with the division rivals (a stated goal of Schoen).
That all said, it the Giants can't work out a fair deal, the team may have no choice.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2023, 02:16:00 PMThe article points out if they use the tag on DJ than the tag and leverage it provides can't be used on Barkley (which may or may not be an issue).
The way I look at it, the Giants already made one mistake not extending DJ his 5th-year option, which cost the team $10 million. Who wouldn't be happy to have DJ returning for $23 million next season? Tagging him would seem like a repeat of that mistake because if Jones has another good season, the cost to sign DJ will go up by 20% (what the cap rises for the second go-round).
Finally, the $33 million tag cost is 100% on this year's salary cap, leaving the team $9 million in cap surplus, which isn't all that much to try and close the talent gap with the division rivals (a stated goal of Schoen).
That all said, it the Giants can't work out a fair deal, the team may have no choice.
That's going to be the pain point.
Quote from: T200 on January 26, 2023, 02:08:51 PMI'd tag him and make him prove it again next season.
If he does well do you think having been tagged, when there are teams willing to pay a lot more, will make him disinclined to sign with the Giants the following year?
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 26, 2023, 03:02:57 PMIf he does well do you think having been tagged, when there are teams willing to pay a lot more, will make him disinclined to sign with the Giants the following year?
It's certainly a possibility. I think it would depend on the difference in what the Giants offer as well as his opportunity with the other team to make a genuine run at a championship. Or if he feels he has a better chance here, he could potentially take less and continue to chase a ring with the Giants.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2023, 01:34:42 PMHere are what the experts are saying DJ's contract will look like
more at the link
https://nypost.com/2023/01/26/why-daniel-jones-has-leverage-as-experts-predict-giants-contract/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow&sr_share=twitter&utm_source=NYPSportsTwitter
I would be very wary of doing this. It could turn out great. Or, just as likely, be a disaster for the franchise. 50/50 odds at best.
Quote from: katkavage on January 26, 2023, 03:26:57 PMI would be very wary of doing this. It could turn out great. Or, just as likely, be a disaster for the franchise. 50/50 odds at best.
I think there are ways to structure the contract where the Giants could walk away DJ after two seasons. That is assuming the team shares your doubts.
I don't think Schoen and Daboll are dumb, they have to have seen what signing a nonelite QB to a longterm deal has done to every franchise that has done it.
Here's praying for a tag and trade.
Again I watch the replay of Mahomes and he clearly looks off the defenders. This has to be an off season priority for Jones. He made strides in this department this season but against Philadelphia he went STRAIGHT back to his old habits of locking on WR because of the pressure they generated.
I still say the loss is on Kafka because the Eagles were like 24th in run defense and we tried to throw it instead of going full Saquon
Quote from: Trench on January 29, 2023, 08:58:43 PMAgain I watch the replay of Mahomes and he clearly looks off the defenders. This has to be an off season priority for Jones. He made strides in this department this season but against Philadelphia he went STRAIGHT back to his old habits of locking on WR because of the pressure they generated.
I still say the loss is on Kafka because the Eagles were like 24th in run defense and we tried to throw it instead of going full Saquon
Instincts like Mahomes has you're born with not something that can be taught.
Quote from: Rambo89 on January 30, 2023, 10:17:56 AMInstincts like Mahomes has you're born with not something that can be taught.
He is just one of those athletes that can do anything. I'm sure he would have been a star in MLB and maybe even the NBA too if he chose those paths.
Nagy talks about DJ's time at the Senior Bowl
https://nypost.com/2023/01/31/daniel-jones-first-showed-grit-with-senior-bowl-comeback-story/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter_app
QuoteJones has worked with Mobile-based trainer David Morris since he was in high school. The QB Country trainer works with Jones for a few days around five to 10 times a year. Each year, they start over with new goals. Over the past couple of seasons, a priority was Jones' ball security, which has improved dramatically the past two seasons. This past offseason, a priority was helping Jones become more decisive in the short and intermediate game. They also wanted to focus on how the quarterback could be remain consistent throughout a game, which Jones believes he did this season by maintaining consistent strength and mobility routines. Morris has been proud of the improvements Jones had made in all facets of his game, like going from a 62 percent completion rate as a rookie to 67 percent this season, along with trimming improving his 2:1 touchdown to interception ratio to 3:1.
"That's how you win," Morris told The Athletic. "So it's just fun to see him putting it all together." Morris said Jones will soon be back in Mobile, where the two will put together new goals to accomplish.
https://theathletic.com/4148659/2023/02/02/giants-daniel-jones-saquon-barkley-nfl-offseason/?source=emp_shared_article
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2023, 02:14:14 PM
Wow, look at the very first play. I'm confused because I was assured that DJ can't throw an accurate long ball and that he only threw line drives and couldn't get any air under the ball.
Has anyone thought that with Brady retiring, assuming it lasts, the Bucs are in desperate need of a QB. Could they drive up Jones agent's demands? They are in salary cap purgatory though.
Quote from: TDToomer on February 02, 2023, 02:58:24 PMHas anyone thought that with Brady retiring, assuming it lasts, the Bucs are in desperate need of a QB. Could they drive up Jones agent's demands? They are in salary cap purgatory though.
I just looked at the Bucs' salary cap :scared: I think you undersold it with "purgatory", they are in the deepest depths of hell.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on February 02, 2023, 02:51:55 PMWow, look at the very first play. I'm confused because I was assured that DJ can't throw an accurate long ball and that he only threw line drives and couldn't get any air under the ball.
Not trying to be nitpicky but that first pass was underthrown. Shep had the defender beat by 7-8 yards. He had to slow down to catch the ball, giving the defender a chance to make a play.
Jones had a very good season and I hope they come to terms that benefit him and the team.
Quote from: TDToomer on February 02, 2023, 02:58:24 PMHas anyone thought that with Brady retiring, assuming it lasts, the Bucs are in desperate need of a QB. Could they drive up Jones agent's demands? They are in salary cap purgatory though.
Even if they weren't Brady's salary this past season was below what Jones is looking for.
So what are the Bucs options at QB? Sounds like they have to go with a rookie but aren't drafting until 19th
Quote from: TDToomer on February 03, 2023, 10:01:46 AMSo what are the Bucs options at QB? Sounds like they have to go with a rookie but aren't drafting until 19th
Kyle Trask
A possibility I've mentioned before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKMQ3OnPq1o
Quote from: AZGiantFan on February 03, 2023, 10:42:19 AMA possibility I've mentioned before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKMQ3OnPq1o
I can see that. He won't even have to move.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 03, 2023, 10:50:30 AMI can see that. He won't even have to move.
On paper, they are in the red with this year's cap, but looking at their contracts, the Jets could easily free up the money to pay Jones if they wanted to.
Quote from: TDToomer on February 03, 2023, 10:39:32 AMBe serious. He's a practice squad level QB.
He is a second round pick yet to play, no one knows if he is good or bad
Quote from: TDToomer on February 03, 2023, 10:39:32 AMBe serious. He's a practice squad level QB.
He is literally the only QB on their roster, at this point in time.
Trask was a reasonably well regarded prospect coming into the league who ultimately went in the second round. He was drafted with succession to Tom Brady in mind. I don't think we can really classify him as anything at this point, because he has not had an opportunity due to Brady being there.
I would expect the Bucs to at least sign a vet like Trubisky (and possibly draft a QB), and then have a QB competition. Trask will be part of that competition.
Trask had a cannon in college. It was the year we drafted Toney, their offense was lethal at Florida but I distinctly remember Trasks arm strength it was legit.
Was Trask the #2 this season? I thought Blaine Gabbert was behind Brady.
Tiki: Daniel Jones will become best QB in NFC East, top 10 in NFL
https://www.audacy.com/wfan/sports/giants/tiki-barber-daniel-jones-will-become-best-qb-in-nfc-east?utm_campaign=www.audacy.com%252Fwfan&utm_content=1675526198&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=WFAN-AM&fbclid=IwAR0fJWdE1FmDViIboa-1rv1O4Sq_WMdDQiS8WUJ5ja6wb96alQQeP60l6Uk
Quote from: TDToomer on February 05, 2023, 11:50:29 AMWas Trask the #2 this season? I thought Blaine Gabbert was behind Brady.
He was. Trask was third I believe.
Quote from: TDToomer on February 05, 2023, 11:50:29 AMWas Trask the #2 this season? I thought Blaine Gabbert was behind Brady.
Gabbert is a Free Agent.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 05, 2023, 04:23:24 PMTiki: Daniel Jones will become best QB in NFC East, top 10 in NFL
https://www.audacy.com/wfan/sports/giants/tiki-barber-daniel-jones-will-become-best-qb-in-nfc-east?utm_campaign=www.audacy.com%252Fwfan&utm_content=1675526198&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=WFAN-AM&fbclid=IwAR0fJWdE1FmDViIboa-1rv1O4Sq_WMdDQiS8WUJ5ja6wb96alQQeP60l6Uk
DJ was ninth in QBR this season.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: todge on February 08, 2023, 05:27:30 PMDJ was ninth in QBR this season.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/espn-qbr-stat-worst-stat-tom-brady-behind-ryan-fitzpatrick-what-is-qbr
Article is old, but makes alot of good points, assuming it is still calculated the same way
https://youtu.be/RZuWf5HOBXQ
33rd team explains why the Giants might skip on Jones/Barkley.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 10, 2023, 06:51:27 PMhttps://youtu.be/RZuWf5HOBXQ
33rd team explains why the Giants might skip on Jones/Barkley.
There are so many flaws in the reasoning expressed
1) it's flawed to think that Joe Schoen will simply copy what his former boss does
2) it's hard to compare having the 25th pick (and no extra picks until a comp pick in round 3) to a team that had a 12th pick and 2nd-round picks in terms of trying to obtain a QB (the Bills also had another 1st round pick)
3) There were more first-round QB prospects in 2018
I don't understand how the 33rd team, a football think tank, would run with this. Although unlike most of the 33rd team, Ari Meirov is simply an unqualified reporter.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2023, 07:28:33 AMThere are so many flaws in the reasoning expressed
1) it's flawed to think that Joe Schoen will simply copy what his former boss does
2) it's hard to compare having the 25th pick (and no extra picks until a comp pick in round 3) to a team that had a 12th pick and 2nd-round picks in terms of trying to obtain a QB (the Bills also had another 1st round pick)
3) There were more first-round QB prospects in 2018
I don't understand how the 33rd team, a football think tank, would run with this. Although unlike most of the 33rd team, Ari Meirov is simply an unqualified reporter.
I don't think he saying he'll simply copy him, but will realize that he walked away from an ok QB to get a superstar. Also their pick was initially in the 20s, they used player trades to move up, all of which we don't have in excess, but it's a very real possibility that Jones and Saquan want absurd contracts and the FO isn't comfortable doing it so they walk, or they tag one and let the other walk and then focus on building up the team.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2023, 07:28:33 AMThere are so many flaws in the reasoning expressed
1) it's flawed to think that Joe Schoen will simply copy what his former boss does
2) it's hard to compare having the 25th pick (and no extra picks until a comp pick in round 3) to a team that had a 12th pick and 2nd-round picks in terms of trying to obtain a QB (the Bills also had another 1st round pick)
3) There were more first-round QB prospects in 2018
I don't understand how the 33rd team, a football think tank, would run with this. Although unlike most of the 33rd team, Ari Meirov is simply an unqualified reporter.
I don't think he was saying nor do I believe that Schoen will copy Beane. But I do think a lot of the same philosophies will be applied where he won't let a playoff appearance get in the way of what his long term vision is for the franchise. It won't be a tear down but will be a gradual roster turnover over the next few seasons.
When it comes to Jones he has already stated that this is still a business which tells me that there will be a price limit of what he's willing to give Jones.
With Jones apparently switching agents, it certainly appears no deal is imminent or even being discussed, notwithstanding recent reports to the contrary.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10066197-nfl-rumors-daniel-jones-to-change-agent-amid-giants-contract-buzz-ahead-of-fa