https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1719059763781058858
Let's goooo! That's a haul for this guy.
I was expecting something closer to a 4th or 5th. Can't believe we got a 2nd for him.
This is a great trade for the Giants. Here is the original trade to acquire Leo in 2019 (before he started to decline).
Giants gave up a third-round draft pick in 2020 and a fifth-round selection in 2021
That's a GREAT haul for Williams. Well done.
Hopefully first of many! Get those draft picks. Cyaaa Jackson, McKinney. Wonder if they get a good enough offer to trade sequon?
That is huge! What a haul!
As said... He was on the block. Expected.
Next one is Adoree Jackson or Barkley.
It is a great start
If yesterday's loss is what we had to suffer through in order to get a true fire sale and rebuild...I for one think it was worth it.
Great move, gotta clear a ton of cap space.
https://x.com/MikeGarafolo/status/1719064068550431052?s=20
Quote from: Flipper on October 30, 2023, 02:49:22 PMGreat move, gotta clear a ton of cap space.
Flipper: I personally did not participate about in-season trades, but many members did make the point that even if the Giants don't plan to trade for an "extra" QB to use this season, they still need the cap space a.s.a.p for other reasons, so it was certainly within the realm of possibility that someone would go soon. I liked Williams, but the depth at his position was not "dire" so the trade makes sense. A 2nd-round draft pick will be a very high draft pick for us (sadly). Bob
Wow. More compensation than I would have expected for sure. Where does the pendulum on Schoen hot-takes swing now?
Schoen just earned BIG POINTS from me for this trade!
Love Williams but it was time.
A 2nd and a 4th?!!! Must've been a bidding war.
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Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 02:51:03 PMhttps://x.com/MikeGarafolo/status/1719064068550431052?s=20
Rich: IMO getting a 2nd- rather than a 3rd-rounder probably makes the expense worth the gain.
From the Seahawks' viewpoint it likely makes the price paid somewhat "defensible" especially to their fans.
So it was IMO a fair trade all around, I guess.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 02:57:05 PMRich: IMO getting a 2nd- rather than a 3rd-rounder probably makes the expense worth the gain.
From the Seahawks' viewpoint it likely makes the price paid somewhat "defensible" especially to their fans.
So it was IMO a fair trade all around, I guess.
Bob
This year is a lost cause anyway--what would this cap space in 2023 get them? Better to just eat it (as they had planned to given expectations entering the season) and get a better pick.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 30, 2023, 02:55:59 PMWow. More compensation than I would have expected for sure. Where does the pendulum on Schoen hot-takes swing now?
My first thought.
Nice. Keep adding draft picks.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on October 30, 2023, 02:47:05 PMAs said... He was on the block. Expected.
Gordon: I get it, but Taylor remaining in the hospital may have been the actual catalyst. Just a wild guess. Bob
Graet deal for the Giants. Joe dont stop here. More guys need to go
Worth eating the $$$ for a 2nd rounder.
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Quote from: katkavage on October 30, 2023, 03:00:44 PMNice. Keep adding draft picks.
We need picks badly. I believe we had 6 for 24 now we have 7.
Good luck in Seattle. I won't miss him.
Leonard Williams made more than $82 million over 61 games with the Giants. For that kind of money you should expect more dominant performances than the handful he actually delivered as a Giant.
Barkley, Mckinney, and Adoree could bring in a haul big enough to allow us to navigate to get any Qb not named Williams if we want it. Including this Williams trade.
The picks will come in handy if they want to move up in the first.
Better make sure that 2nd round pick ends up being a starter...
https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1719070518035222971?s=20
Giants obviously throwing in the towel. But this is a smart move, as Leo took a huge bite out of our cap each year and he's not going to be part of the team that brings the next Lombardi. Excellent return on investment. I suspect the Giants aren't through, and it looks like it's going to be a long-suffering season. I hope they groom the young guys and get them some valuable experience and find out what we got that has potential
Williams was off the books at the end of the year, this is such a great deal. To save 1 million and get a 2nd and 5th is outstanding.
I wonder who is paying him the 5.9 mill he is owed in 2024??
Nice assets to include in a package for a QB.
I'm not a collegiate expert so here's my question: is there a QB in this years draft worth of a top 1-3 pick?
Or do they use Dimes or another QB as a bridge and stockpile for 2025?
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Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
Giants Draft Picks for next 2 years post Leonard Williams trade
2024:
1st
2nd
2nd (Seahawks)
3rd
4th
5th
6th
2025:
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
5th (Seahawks)
7th (Bills)
7th
3:28 PM · Oct 30, 2023
·
5,931
Views
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:36:41 PMNice assets to include in a package for a QB.
I'm not a collegiate expert so here's my question: is there a QB in this years draft worth of a top 1-3 pick?
Or do they use Dimes or another QB as a bridge and stockpile for 2025?
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Caleb Williams is QB1 and most would consider that to be clear. After him there are at least 2 and maybe even 3 or 4 QBs that would have been graded better than Jones was the year he came out. Whoever ends up with the #1 pick will almost certainly take Caleb Williams. After that the Giants might look to move up to #2 or #3 in order to get one themselves if they have enough capital.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 30, 2023, 03:17:58 PMGood luck in Seattle. I won't miss him.
Leonard Williams made more than $82 million over 61 games with the Giants. For that kind of money you should expect more dominant performances than the handful he actually delivered as a Giant.
Spot on, Doc; the LW trade has to be considered one of the worst in recent Giants history, as it directly contributed to Williams ridiculous salary. Williams production failed to match his bloated salary; worse, his contract prevented us from acquiring quality Fee Agents. The sooner we get rid Gettlmen era players, the sooner we can move out of the NFL basement. GREAT TRADE and I hope this is just the start. Id like to see Barkley and Jackson moved too.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:39:39 PMBobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
Giants Draft Picks for next 2 years post Leonard Williams trade
2024:
1st
2nd
2nd (Seahawks)
3rd
4th
5th
6th
2025:
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
5th (Seahawks)
7th (Bills)
7th
3:28 PM · Oct 30, 2023
·
5,931
Views
Let's hope the total capital of this list grows substantially in the next 24 hours.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 30, 2023, 03:40:53 PMSpot on, Doc; the LW trade has to be considered one of the worst in recent Giants history, as it directly contributed to Williams ridiculous salary. Williams production failed to match his bloated salary; worse, his contract prevented us from acquiring quality Fee Agents. The sooner we get rid Gettlmen era players, the sooner we can move out of the NFL basement. GREAT TRADE and I hope this is just the start. Id like to see Barkley and Jackson moved too.
And the worst part was....anybody with any sense could see it was a stupid trade the second it went down except our esteemed GM at the time. Who of course knows more than everybody else by virtue of being the smartest man in every room he enters. Good God was that a bad deal.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:36:41 PMNice assets to include in a package for a QB.
I'm not a collegiate expert so here's my question: is there a QB in this years draft worth of a top 1-3 pick?
Or do they use Dimes or another QB as a bridge and stockpile for 2025?
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andrew: That's what they used to call "The $64,000 Question."
IMO none of the QB's who were touted pre-season as "the next whoever" in the NFL has lived up to his billing.
Personally, I see no Peyton Manning or John Elway in the group at this time (but there are lots of games left).
Bob
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 30, 2023, 02:57:53 PMThis year is a lost cause anyway--what would this cap space in 2023 get them? Better to just eat it (as they had planned to given expectations entering the season) and get a better pick.
H-T: Re-posting this because the earlier response contained a major error:
First, apt use of the term "hot takes" in your other post. Was good for a chuckle. Looks like @uconn also noticed.
Second, it's huge, IMO, because THEIR OWN 2nd-rounder is probably going to be a virtual 1st-rounder since IMO at least five or six teams every year pick a name out of a hat in the first round and they can used the Seahawks' 2nd-rounder to move up in the first round if deemed necessary.
Hate to be talking about this in OCTOBER but I just keep seeing the injuries piling up and... so be it.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 03:42:00 PMandrew: That's what they used to call "The $64,000 Question."
IMO none of the QB's who were touted pre-season as "the next whoever" in the NFL has lived up to his billing.
Personally, I see no Peyton Manning or John Elway in the group at this time (but there are lots of games left).
Bob
Yeah. After the Notre Dame & UTAH games I don't see how anyone could still consider Caleb Williams a #1 overall.
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Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 03:42:00 PMandrew: That's what they used to call "The $64,000 Question."
IMO none of the QB's who were touted pre-season as "the next whoever" in the NFL has lived up to his billing.
Personally, I see no Peyton Manning or John Elway in the group at this time (but there are lots of games left).
Bob
You're right, Bob; yet, the Giants can't continue on their current trajectory hoping for a different outcome. If they end up with a top 6 pick, they should absolutely take another shot.
Honestly wouldnt have expected more than a 4th. this is a great deal for us. i think we have a good enough stable of tackles to make up for this.
Quote from: babywhales on October 30, 2023, 03:30:20 PMWilliams was off the books at the end of the year, this is such a great deal. To save 1 million and get a 2nd and 5th is outstanding.
I wonder who is paying him the 5.9 mill he is owed in 2024??
From the haul we got in return, I'm guessing we are. If the Seahawks ate all the salary, the return would have been more like the 4th and/or 5th most if us expected.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:46:35 PMYeah. After the Notre Dame & UTAH games I don't see how anyone could still consider Caleb Williams a #1 overall.
Andrew: That guy has so far been the biggest disappointment to the vast majority of collegiate people. Bob
Now trade DJ to the Vikings to help with the Cousins injury. Give him a better OL and we get more draft picks to build around a QB drafted next year. We pick up a QB for rest of year.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 30, 2023, 03:46:50 PMYou're right, Bob; yet, the Giants can't continue on their current trajectory hoping for a different outcome. If they end up with a top 6 pick, they should absolutely take another shot.
king: I'm ok w/any pro-ready player being taken in the Top 10. There are several coming out. IMO, none are QB's.
My favorite still is M. Harrison, Jr. IMO he was pro-ready LAST YEAR and so far free fro any serious injury.
If Schoen thinks there's a QB who is one-year-away-from-pro-ready then I'm ok with using a top-10 pick.
Bob
Great trade assuming they draft a good player with the 2nd rounder. However, I am not sure the Giants will pick the correct player. That is based on picking Robison over Pickens in the 2nd.
Quote from: sooners56 on October 30, 2023, 04:26:22 PMGreat trade assuming they draft a good player with the 2nd rounder. However, I am not sure the Giants will pick the correct player. That is based on picking Robison over Pickens in the 2nd.
sooners: I don't see it that way.
I see the Seattle 2nd-rounder as the price to trade up in the 1st round if they see a QB worth such the price.
IMO there aren't any pro-ready QB's this year. Do you see one? Asking because you watch a lot of college ball.
Bob
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:46:35 PMYeah. After the Notre Dame & UTAH games I don't see how anyone could still consider Caleb Williams a #1 overall.
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No? I think he still is. I've seen too many "can't miss" QBs slip in the draft after their senior season wasn't the dominant performance everyone expected. Josh Allen is one. Marino is the most famous.
C-dub should be on the Giants' list if they are looking for a QB. I wouldn't hold it against him that his most polished receiver is now catching passes for the Vikings and the whole PAC-12 (PAC-10?, PAC-8?, PAC-4?, whatever...) is playing with a chip on their shoulder this season.
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 04:10:04 PMAndrew: That guy has so far been the biggest disappointment to the vast majority of collegiate people. Bob
The more and more i hear and see about him, im not interested. if he falls to the second (will never happen) i'd take him. but i want an absolute GAMER with our 1st pick. someone whos shown consistent excellence against the toughest competition. i dont follow college football all that closely, so dont ask me who that is.
If you can't succeed..you admit it and move on. More trades should be happening for this regime. Jackson and McKinney are likely next. Mara loves Barkley..so little chance he goes.
Quote from: sooners56 on October 30, 2023, 04:26:22 PMGreat trade assuming they draft a good player with the 2nd rounder.
I respectfully disagree with this statement:
(1) No matter whom they take with this pick, they were not re-signing Williams either way. So the choice (after the end of the 2023 season) was something versus nothing, and they chose something. "Something" is always better than "nothing."
(2) They may use this pick as part of another trade in the future.
(3) Even if they do select a player with this pick who ends up not working out, that doesn't mean the trade they did today was a bad trade in my opinion. Today was about what value they extracted for Williams. What they ultimately do with that value is a separate evaluation.
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 04:35:42 PMsooners: I don't see it that way.
I see the Seattle 2nd-rounder as the price to tade up in the 1st round if they see a QB worth such the price.
IMO there aren't any pro-ready QB's this year. Do you see one? Asking because you watch a lot of college ball.
Bob
I am not a fan of Caleb Williams. I have seen a lot of his games. I live in Los Angeles. I would take Maye over Williams. The most pro ready IMO is also the most injured Michael Penix Jr, his age bothers me too, but not as much as the injuries. I am keeping my eye out for J.J. McCarthy and Quinn Ewers
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 30, 2023, 05:10:59 PMI am not a fan of Caleb Williams. I have seen a lot of his games. I live in Los Angeles. I would take Maye over Williams. The most pro ready IMO is also the most injured Michael Penix Jr, his age bothers me too, but not as much as the injuries. I am keeping my eye out for J.J. McCarthy and Quinn Ewers
Interesting perspective. What do you not like about Williams?
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 04:35:42 PMsooners: I don't see it that way.
I see the Seattle 2nd-rounder as the price to tade up in the 1st round if they see a QB worth such the price.
IMO there aren't any pro-ready QB's this year. Do you see one? Asking because you watch a lot of college ball.
Bob
If they do use the 2nd they acquired and move up to draft the QB of the future that would also make it a great trade.
To answer your question...
There is a pro ready QB and his name is Caleb Williams. As a Sooners fan, it pained me to see him pack his bags with Lincoln Riley and head to sunny skies and sandy beaches. Make no mistake Williams is NFL ready. Even with his last few games being stinkers. He can make all the throws and has WOW plays throughout his collegiate career. Closest thing to Patrick Mahomes. He buys times with moving in pocket and scrambling all while
Looking to throw. He can make any throw and looks at ease doing it while on the move.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 30, 2023, 05:03:37 PMI respectfully disagree with this statement:
(1) No matter whom they take with this pick, they were not re-signing Williams either way. So the choice (after the end of the 2023 season) was something versus nothing, and they chose something. "Something" is always better than "nothing."
(2) They may use this pick as part of another trade in the future.
(3) Even if they do select a player with this pick who ends up not working out, that doesn't mean the trade they did today was a bad trade in my opinion. Today was about what value they extracted for Williams. What they ultimately do with that value is a separate evaluation.
Your points are valid and I agree with what you wrote. In my post you replied to, I just didn't type my full thoughts on it.
An A for the Giants, and an A- for Seattle per WalterFootball:
https://walterfootball.com/nfltrades.php
I always like to peruse the counterparty's fan board after a trade. Here is how Seattle fans are reacting to this:
https://www.seahawks.net/threads/trade-alert-leonard-williams-to-the-seahawks.191380/
I would say there is a mix of excitement and also question marks as to how much they gave up and how much of a long term option Williams is at this point.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 30, 2023, 04:18:15 PMNow trade DJ to the Vikings to help with the Cousins injury. Give him a better OL and we get more draft picks to build around a QB drafted next year. We pick up a QB for rest of year.
They can't trade DJ because the acceleration of his signing bonus would put them 10s of millions over the CAP.
The other reason I heard the Giants wanted to move some players other than reduction in total salary was that they did not have a full contingent of draft picks for 2024 so wanted to bolster. I have not checked it, but if true, it makes sense. A team failing as badly as the Giants needs draft capital.
https://x.com/mlombardinfl/status/1719110586783416640?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 30, 2023, 05:13:14 PMInteresting perspective. What do you not like about Williams?
It's so hard to judge a player from the sideline, but what worries me is inability to play well against a good defense so far in his career. Caleb Williams' numbers when playing against a top 25 scoring D (per CFB reference) and the results are not pretty. He's played 5 P5 top 25 defenses and has had 1 decent game and 4 bad to terrible games. He also holds onto the ball too long. He's obviously very talented. But I'm still hesitant that he is some can't miss prospect.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 30, 2023, 06:16:38 PMIt's so hard to judge a player from the sideline, but what worries me is inability to play well against a good defense so far in his career. Caleb Williams' numbers when playing against a top 25 scoring D (per CFB reference) and the results are not pretty. He's played 5 P5 top 25 defenses and has had 1 decent game and 4 bad to terrible games. He also holds onto the ball too long. He's obviously very talented. But I'm still hesitant that he is some can't miss prospect.
Good color.
To be fair, there is no such thing as a "can't miss prospect." People said that about Evan Neal, and look at how that has worked out. It is especially true with QBs.
What deal. I'm elated.
https://x.com/FieldYates/status/1719121369256915449?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 07:27:56 PMhttps://x.com/FieldYates/status/1719121369256915449?s=20
Not what I had hoped for financially but if that's what it took to get a 2nd rounder, then I'll take it.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 30, 2023, 07:55:21 PMNot what I had hoped for financially but if that's what it took to get a 2nd rounder, then I'll take it.
This year is clearly a lost cause so the money side of it as far as 2023 goes isn't that important to me, personally. I care much more about what we're getting back.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 30, 2023, 06:16:38 PMIt's so hard to judge a player from the sideline, but what worries me is inability to play well against a good defense so far in his career. Caleb Williams' numbers when playing against a top 25 scoring D (per CFB reference) and the results are not pretty. He's played 5 P5 top 25 defenses and has had 1 decent game and 4 bad to terrible games. He also holds onto the ball too long. He's obviously very talented. But I'm still hesitant that he is some can't miss prospect.
I'm starting to really like Mccarthy over Williams and Maye. Maye can't elebate his team to even beat bad teams, much less good teams. That's really worrying about him and Williams.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 30, 2023, 08:39:45 PMI'm starting to really like Mccarthy over Williams and Maye. Maye can't elebate his team to even beat bad teams, much less good teams. That's really worrying about him and Williams.
I'm going to be watching McCarthy very, very closely two weeks from now in Happy Valley and then four weeks from now against Ohio State. Thus far this year he hasn't really been tested that much. Those two games are huge tests. Plus we'll likely see him in the Big 10 championship and also at least one playoff game. Also huge tests. Him lighting it up against the likes of Rutgers, Bowling Green, Nevada, Indiana etc means little to me.
To be clear I'm not knocking him. I like him too. But I want to see him elevate people in games like the ones I mentioned if I'm using a top six or seven pick on him.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 30, 2023, 08:29:49 PMThis year is clearly a lost cause so the money side of it as far as 2023 goes isn't that important to me, personally. I care much more about what we're getting back.
Agree in general, but cap money left over at the end of the year is rolled over. Right now that's looking like it won't be enough to buy a water out of the machine at Costco.
Regardless, a 2nd day pick is worth more than several million in cap space.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 30, 2023, 08:57:51 PMAgree in general, but cap money left over at the end of the year is rolled over. Right now that's looking like it won't be enough to buy a water out of the machine at Costco.
Fair enough but with no answer at QB right now, plus a number of other significant question marks, realistically what are our chances of contention next year? I'm not suggesting we don't try, but I would still argue that the picks we're racking up are more important than a few mil here or there between this year or even next year.
BTW, while admittedly I have not done a big deep dive into this subject yet, I see us as 15th in 2024 cap space on Spotrac right now. Considering we've already locked up Thomas and Dex and don't have any major decisions outside of McKinney (to me Barkley is not a big decision anymore if he's even still here come the offseason), that doesn't seem like a disaster to me at all.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 30, 2023, 08:39:45 PMI'm starting to really like Mccarthy over Williams and Maye. Maye can't elebate his team to even beat bad teams, much less good teams. That's really worrying about him and Williams.
Me too.... Jim Harbaugh who usually doesn't talk up players keep saying this guy's generational talent.
Quote from: sooners56 on October 30, 2023, 05:19:02 PMIf they do use the 2nd they acquired and move up to draft the QB of the future that would also make it a great trade.
To answer your question...
There is a pro ready QB and his name is Caleb Williams. As a Sooners fan, it pained me to see him pack his bags with Lincoln Riley and head to sunny skies and sandy beaches. Make no mistake Williams is NFL ready. Even with his last few games being stinkers. He can make all the throws and has WOW plays throughout his collegiate career. Closest thing to Patrick Mahomes. He buys times with moving in pocket and scrambling all while
Looking to throw. He can make any throw and looks at ease doing it while on the move.
sooners: I admit I have only seen three of his games this season (two were the bad ones, both of which were against top teams that stymied him; AND importantly, he had no answer.
There were no ups and downs in either game; never caught fire; performance was the same from beginning to end (not bad but not in any way "elite") and simply did not come up big.
My interpretation - the best teams have the best coaches. He attracted a lot of attention last year (obviously) so they studied up on him and found his vulnerabilities, which IMO are still present. This worries me, although I do value your opinion and will try to examine as many more of his games as possible.
I'm not saying the Giants won't consider him, but it will be a huge surprise to me if they take him (assuming he shows nothing "special" in the final games of his college career).
Lastly, there's something about him that says to me "I'm already good enough to go in the first round, so I don't have to try very hard this year." It's nothing concrete but I sense it. It worries me.
Bob
PS. If it matters, I thought the same thing about Thibodeaux and was demonstrated to be incorrect.
Whoa - JJ McCarty is a system QB. He is not better than Maye or Williams. McCarthy is Christian Ponder or Jake Locker. Do Not Want
Quote from: Puffy on October 30, 2023, 10:39:12 PMWhoa - JJ McCarty is a system QB. He is not better than Maye or Williams. McCarthy is Christian Ponder or Jake Locker. Do Not Want
He sidearms a lot of passes and although he's accurate, the velocity isn't what I'd like. I need a lot more film on this entire QB class.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 10:42:24 PMHe sidearms a lot of passes and although he's accurate, the velocity isn't what I'd like. I need a lot more film on this entire QB class.
Yes. I've seen all the scouts who like Williams and think he is generational but, personally, I like Maye better.
People need to remember that Peyton Manning lost big game after big game. Tee Martin then won a NC the next year. Josh Allen was big arm, not accurate. Phillip Rivers never won a big game in college and had "funky motion." Drew Brees was too short.
Forget about wins and losses in college. Forget that Williams looked bad against the 2 best Ds he faced. College and pros are different - look at traits. Pocket presence (which is where Daniel Jones failed in college and in pros and why he was not worthy of 6th pick, IMO) is huge. College games are system based. Equal system, the more talented team always wins (Hello, Georgia). But really good systems with really good coaches change outcomes in college that is not same as in pros.
This is a really long way to say that JJ McCarthy is more Drew Henson than Tom Brady.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 10:42:24 PMI need a lot more film on this entire QB class.
Ed: IMO, the 2023 draft certainly does not contain a Peyton Manning or John Elway (obvious #1 overall pick).
Lots of folks said last year at this time, "2022 isn't a good year for QBs but just wait til next year (2023)."
I hope they're right... but I just don't see it.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 03:04:46 PMGordon: I get it, but Taylor remaining in the hospital may have been the actual catalyst. Just a wild guess. Bob
In the sense that the season's gone or because they needed to sign another QB and get some Cap Space freed up (did they, actually, get some cap back with the trade)?
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on October 31, 2023, 02:34:59 AMIn the sense that the season's gone or because they needed to sign another QB and get some Cap Space freed up (did they, actually, get some cap back with the trade)?
Gordon: Over my pay-grade, but it's my understanding that the answer is no. The picks are what they got. Bob
https://x.com/mlombardiNFL/status/1719307888286486726?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 09:06:37 AMhttps://x.com/mlombardiNFL/status/1719307888286486726?s=20
The bonus money was owed anyways. I don't really agree with this interpretation if I am being completely honest.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on October 31, 2023, 09:53:40 AMThe bonus money was owed anyways. I don't really agree with this interpretation if I am being completely honest.
I can see it from both sides. I see your point in that it's essentially a sunk cost. On the other hand, I can see the point that the team no longer has Leo's services but is paying essentially the same as if he was still here.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 10:40:47 AMI can see it from both sides. I see your point in that it's essentially a sunk cost. On the other hand, I can see the point that the team no longer has Leo's services but is paying essentially the same as if he was still here.
Rich: A counterpoint to your last sentence is... maybe the defense will play the same without him as with him. lol
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 31, 2023, 10:52:35 AMRich: A counterpoint to your last sentence is... maybe the defense will play the same without him as with him. lol
The Giants are 2-6...does it really matter at this point?
Quote from: kingm56 on October 31, 2023, 11:44:20 AMThe Giants are 2-6...does it really matter at this point?
It does if the O gets healthy and we reel off 4 in a row.
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Quote from: GordonGekko80 on October 31, 2023, 09:53:40 AMThe bonus money was owed anyways. I don't really agree with this interpretation if I am being completely honest.
Agreed 100%. It doesn't make sense.
To Rich's point explaining the other side - "they're paying him for his services despite no longer having his services" - this is totally inconsequential. This year is over, and Leo was not going to be here beyond this year, regardless.
A cheap, 2nd round pick who will be here for at least the next 4 years is infinitely more available than continuing to trot out Leo for 9 more meaningless games.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 31, 2023, 11:45:51 AMIt does if the O gets healthy and we reel off 4 in a row.
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So we finish 7 and 9, which condemns us to more of the same? It's clear the direction the Giants are moving.
IF this team manages to get its act together and finishes strong, my opinion of the trade will be even more positive than it already is. That means the Giants get a 2nd round pick and the defense still played well in the 2nd half of the season.
I don't see a way that anyone can convince me that getting a 2nd round pick for a guy that was not going to be on the team in 2024 isn't a positive.
https://x.com/The33rdTeamFB/status/1719095859147587824?s=20
Quote from: kingm56 on October 31, 2023, 11:44:20 AMThe Giants are 2-6...does it really matter at this point?
king: Yes, just not to me and you, lol. A lot of players can get paid more for accomplishing certain stuff. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 31, 2023, 01:04:11 PMking: Yes, just not to me and you, lol. A lot of players can get paid more for accomplishing certain stuff. Bob
Thats a very fair point, Bob.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 30, 2023, 08:53:55 PMI'm going to be watching McCarthy very, very closely two weeks from now in Happy Valley and then four weeks from now against Ohio State. Thus far this year he hasn't really been tested that much. Those two games are huge tests. Plus we'll likely see him in the Big 10 championship and also at least one playoff game. Also huge tests. Him lighting it up against the likes of Rutgers, Bowling Green, Nevada, Indiana etc means little to me.
To be clear I'm not knocking him. I like him too. But I want to see him elevate people in games like the ones I mentioned if I'm using a top six or seven pick on him.
He keeps leaving in the 3rd quarter or he'd have better numbers and even now still has great numbers.
Did Schoen get the best deal of the sellers this year?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 31, 2023, 08:18:11 PMDid Schoen get the best deal of the sellers this year?
Getting a 2nd for Sweat was pretty good too but the Williams deal is probably a little better even if they do have to pay all his money. My big issue is why was that the ONLY deal they made?
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 01, 2023, 10:22:47 AMGetting a 2nd for Sweat was pretty good too but the Williams deal is probably a little better even if they do have to pay all his money. My big issue is why was that the ONLY deal they made?
Gm: Just a guess... They only got one decent offer (the one for Williams). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 01, 2023, 11:16:02 AMGm: Just a guess... They only got one decent offer (the one for Williams). Bob
Even a less than decent offer is better than no offer. If the guy isn't in their future plans like Jackson, Barkley, maybe McKinney whatever offer they get is better than nothing.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 01, 2023, 11:29:04 AMEven a less than decent offer is better than no offer. If the guy isn't in their future plans like Jackson, Barkley, maybe McKinney whatever offer they get is better than nothing.
Gm: IMO Shoen doesn't operate that way, IMO.
If a GM gets a reputation for being "easy" when the chips are down, he will get fewer and fewer decent offers.
I'm not saying they had offers for other players, but if they did, and those offers were hoping to find a "fire sale" at Giants' headquarters, the GM's making low-ball offers learned that you either make the Giants (under Schoen) a respectable offer or you walk away empty handed.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 01, 2023, 12:24:10 PMGm: IMO Shoen doesn't operate that way, IMO.
If a GM gets a reputation for being "easy" when the chips are down, he will get fewer and fewer decent offers.
I'm not saying they had offers for other players, but if they did, and those offers were hoping to find a "fire sale" at Giants' headquarters, the GM's making low-ball offers learned that you either make the Giants (under Schoen) a respectable offer or you walk away empty handed.
Bob
If you were the GM, and let's say the Niners offer you a 6th round pick for Adoree Jackson. And in your opinion Jackson is worth a 5th round pick do you turn the deal down or take it? Knowing that Jackson will not be on the roster next year and will not be bringing in a comp pick. What would you do? For me I would take the pick offered and not much care what other GMs think. Because when it comes to a proper trade that's not involved in a fire sale I know I'll hold out for proper value. In this case it was, or at least should have been, a fire sale. In an effort to collect as many picks as possible to use next April to maneuver in the draft.
If you remember, the Giants were debating between JMS and Hyatt with the 2nd round pick. Hoping JMS would be there but totally fine taking Hyatt if he wasn't. They take JMS and then soon thereafter realize they have a shot to move up and get Hyatt too. They could only do that with lower round picks to use to get up to a spot and take him. And now Hyatt is the best WR on the team, though somebody should probably tell Daboll that at some point. So while 7th rounders and 6th rounders seem mostly useless they may not be if you package 4 of them to move up in the 4th round to get a guy that ends up starting for you.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 01, 2023, 12:49:52 PMIf you were the GM, and let's say the Niners offer you a 6th round pick for Adoree Jackson. And in your opinion Jackson is worth a 5th round pick do you turn the deal down or take it? Knowing that Jackson will not be on the roster next year and will not be bringing in a comp pick. What would you do? For me I would take the pick offered and not much care what other GMs think. Because when it comes to a proper trade that's not involved in a fire sale I know I'll hold out for proper value. In this case it was, or at least should have been, a fire sale. In an effort to collect as many picks as possible to use next April to maneuver in the draft.
If you remember, the Giants were debating between JMS and Hyatt with the 2nd round pick. Hoping JMS would be there but totally fine taking Hyatt if he wasn't. They take JMS and then soon thereafter realize they have a shot to move up and get Hyatt too. They could only do that with lower round picks to use to get up to a spot and take him. And now Hyatt is the best WR on the team, though somebody should probably tell Daboll that at some point. So while 7th rounders and 6th rounders seem mostly useless they may not be if you package 4 of them to move up in the 4th round to get a guy that ends up starting for you.
Do you honestly believe that a legit NFL franchise would give up a starting caliber draft pick in return for four 6th round picks?
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 01, 2023, 12:54:09 PMDo you honestly believe that a legit NFL franchise would give up a starting caliber draft pick in return for four 6th round picks?
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Including their 4th round pick to trade up? Yes. I certainly do. Happens almost every year.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 01, 2023, 01:06:42 PMIncluding their 4th round pick to trade up? Yes. I certainly do. Happens almost every year.
Including a 4th with four 6ths to go where mid 3rd? That's the best you could get.
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Quote from: Gmo11 on November 01, 2023, 12:49:52 PMIf you were the GM, and let's say the Niners offer you a 6th round pick for Adoree Jackson. And in your opinion Jackson is worth a 5th round pick do you turn the deal down or take it? Knowing that Jackson will not be on the roster next year and will not be bringing in a comp pick. What would you do? For me I would take the pick.
Gm: I would also take the pick. You're assuming someone made an offer. My assumption (which is consistent with the way I hope Schoen conducts his business) is that they didn't get any offers for Jackson involving a draft pick for next year. Why not? I don't know. Bob
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 01, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIncluding a 4th with four 6ths to go where mid 3rd? That's the best you could get.
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Exactly right. And that could be the difference between getting Jalin Hyatt or some scrub WR that barely makes the roster.
This is interesting. If Leo's account is accurate (which I obviously have no reason to think it isn't), it sounds like Schoen asked him for his permission to trade him.
https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1719849057667940682
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 01, 2023, 07:22:10 PMThis is interesting. If Leo's account is accurate (which I obviously have no reason to think it isn't), it sounds like Schoen asked him for his permission to trade him.
https://twitter.com/TalkinGiants/status/1719849057667940682
GREAT way to handle it by Schoen. These players are humans and it's a human business- handling an organization with pride and respect is big for the culture and players around the league take notice of this type of stuff (especially vets like Leo). Kudos to the GM.
As opposed to Gettleman who was notorious for not even talking to any of his players. Landon Collins for instance was never even contacted during his walk year about an possible extension.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 01, 2023, 12:24:10 PMGm: IMO Shoen doesn't operate that way, IMO.
If a GM gets a reputation for being "easy" when the chips are down, he will get fewer and fewer decent offers.
I'm not saying they had offers for other players, but if they did, and those offers were hoping to find a "fire sale" at Giants' headquarters, the GM's making low-ball offers learned that you either make the Giants (under Schoen) a respectable offer or you walk away empty handed.
Bob
Bob,
I was a little surprised Adoree was not traded. Not sure what CBs have gone down recently for teams with big aspirations, I know of one who is coming back.
I don't know much about Adoree the person or the teammate, but I think it's possible if they got an offer of a 6th or something in that area, they felt having him around the two rookie QBs was worth more than the pick. Maybe that seems ridiculous to some, but if Adoree is a true professional (and I have not indication he is not) then teaching these rookies how to prepare is valuable thing that's hard to measure in terms of draft picks.
Just a thought of one reason they might not have pulled the trigger with an offer of a late round pick.
Matt,
I think three factors prevented Adoree from being traded:
1. He sinks – He lost his job to 2x rookie CBs and has contributed nothing this season. His atrocious 40 PFF rating is indicative of his play.
2. He's injured...a lot – He's missed two games this season and has a robust injury history.
3. Bad Return on investment – When you couple his bloated salary with factors 1 and 2, he represents a terrible RoI; also, he's not signed after 2024, so it's a 8 game rental, assuming he plays all 8 games. I don't think there's a single team that's an Adoree Jackson away from competing in the SB.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 02, 2023, 07:53:55 AMBob,
I was a little surprised Adoree was not traded. Not sure what CBs have gone down recently for teams with big aspirations, I know of one who is coming back.
I don't know much about Adoree the person or the teammate, but I think it's possible if they got an offer of a 6th or something in that area, they felt having him around the two rookie QBs was worth more than the pick. Maybe that seems ridiculous to some, but if Adoree is a true professional (and I have not indication he is not) then teaching these rookies how to prepare is valuable thing that's hard to measure in terms of draft picks.
Just a thought of one reason they might not have pulled the trigger with an offer of a late round pick.
uconn: Great point. Anyway, Wink loves his corner backs and almost all his schemes rely on man-coverage.
So he can't afford to come up empty if there's an injury and he reaches into the grab-bag for a replacement.
One more thing, to change the subject: do you think there's any chance Schoen WAS shopping Jackson and couldn't even get an offer for a pick in 2024? Far-fetched but it's the only other possibility we haven't considered.
Bob