Big Blue Huddle

"Top NFL Analysts weigh in."

I'm inclined to say he becomes a top notch backup because he doesn't have the long ball, but he can have much success as a starter in the right system. This is why we only saw one attempt to Hyatt on a Deep Post which fell short. Although I felt that if he set up properly he may have been able to lead him. I need to see that he can make those throws before endorsement. I think the Giants draft a QB with more of a cannon and see what happens. A couple of opportunities he didn't go for against GB were routes over 40 yards.

Still I have an open mind and you gotta love the kid and what he brings to the table.

https://www.bigblueview.com/platform/amp/2023/12/14/24000060/tommy-devitos-success-a-fluke-or-sustainable-top-nfl-analysts-weigh-in-ny-giants-nfl-draft

high school clip looked like he threw 50 yards.  If so, he can do 60 now.  Accuracy/proper leading of WR is the key

No QB can be successful behind this OL  /sarcasm/

I also think it had to do with the rain, wind and game plan

If you look at his scouting reports he isn't good with the long ball unless his mechanics are spot and he's able to set and then drive. Another thing that hurts him is the sweeping motion he does when he throws, he does it to add snap/velocity to his throws but unless he's in the right stance it can come out wobbly.

The issue is he is 25, so what you see is what you get likely. Not that it is a bad thing, because his age is likely benefitting him a ton right now in games, but as far as longterm growth not so much.

He made a lot of nice plays while at Syracuse, and you can see that he can throw the long ball or put zip on an intermediate route. The downside, notice that the Orange are usually losing to whoever they're playing...which brings up the point of the mediocrity of the team around him.

He was badly injured in 2020 while playing against winless Duke (Duke won that game) and he was replaced by Rex Culpepper. Because of the injury, he only played 4 games in 2020 and only 3 games in 2021. He was quite dynamic before the leg injury. To answer the original question...I believe it is sustainable barring injury


If you want to watch an in-depth breakdown of him at Illinois by Bobby Skinner

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 14, 2023, 11:41:24 AMNo QB can be successful behind this OL  /sarcasm/

Post of the month. If not year.

I don't think it's a fluke, but the level of "success" is a bit exaggerated.

This is a fun story featuring a good kid.

Best case scenario for him is he'll compete for a roster spot at #2 next season.

The Giants are still in need of a long term starter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

If he wins the following numbers of the remaining games this year...

zero -  it was just a fluke.
one -  probably a fluke, depending on which one (beating the Eagles scrubs doesn't count).
two -  even if neither win is against Philly he's still likely good enough for the NFL somewhere, in some capacity.
three - if he beats the Eagles in a game that really has meaning, same as for two wins.
four -  the team will carry him off the field on their shoulders even if they don't get into the playoffs.

Bob
 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 14, 2023, 12:51:48 PMPost of the month. If not year.

Seeing how he responds after a very bad game will be important.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 14, 2023, 12:06:58 PMIf you look at his scouting reports he isn't good with the long ball unless his mechanics are spot and he's able to set and then drive. Another thing that hurts him is the sweeping motion he does when he throws, he does it to add snap/velocity to his throws but unless he's in the right stance it can come out wobbly.

The issue is he is 25, so what you see is what you get likely. Not that it is a bad thing, because his age is likely benefitting him a ton right now in games, but as far as longterm growth not so much.

I get it...as apposed to all those QBs who can throw long falling backwards who have not set their feet and do not step into the throw

all those guys like uhhhhh, and uhhhhhhh, and dont forget about duhhhhhh

Quote from: Bob In PA on December 14, 2023, 12:58:52 PMIf he wins the following numbers of the remaining games this year...

zero -  it was just a fluke.
one -  probably a fluke, depending on which one (beating the Eagles scrubs doesn't count).
two -  if neither win is against Philly he's still likely good enough for the NFL somewhere, in some capacity.
three - if he beats the Eagles in a game that really has meaning, same as for two wins.
four -  the team will carry him off the field on their shoulders even if they don't get into the playoffs.

Bob
 

Bob

I disagree entirely. Yes, he may well end up being a 'fluke' but he has already won 2 games, a lot more than any other QB on the team. WHY is that? Are teams not prepared for him?
He is a real unknown but he also has no experience. Maybe if he were in his third year as a backup and then entered and did what he has done, what would you say then?
If he proceeds to lose the remaining games then he was a fluke--I hardly doubt it. In reality, looking at our schedule, no one really expected us to win any more games starting with GB yet we did. Was that a fluke win? He pulled an Eli Manning, drove the team sown the field with less than 2 minutes left, and that, my friend, was no fluke.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 14, 2023, 01:09:18 PMI get it...as apposed to all those QBs who can throw long falling backwards who have not set their feet and do not step into the throw

all those guys like uhhhhh, and uhhhhhhh, and dont forget about duhhhhhh

In other words, he can improvise, adapt and overcome. He isn't Clint Eastwood and this isn't Heartbreak Ridge, although playing the Eagles might not be far from it.

The kid is making the most out of his opportunity and I trust he will continue to do so. As far as things go, he's preparing for the Saints, and the New Orleans Superdome (Is it still super?), so I'm sure he isn't interested in whether he can throw the ball 60 yards unless the play is designed for him to do just that.

When it is all said and done, he will have accomplished something most free agent and lower draft pick quarterbacks will never get the opportunity to do, much less be successful at it. Whether or not that translates as an opportunity to become a backup quarterback somewhere remains to be seen. But he will go down in NFL history for doing what he has been doing and is continuing to do this season.

In the pre-season of 2010, an undrafted kid out of UMass stepped onto the field and caught three touchdowns in dramatic form against the Jets which left everyone going "Wow, who is this kid?" A year later, he would be dancing the salsa in the end zone during the Super Bowl. Victor Cruz, Jersey guy, took advantage of his opportunity with the Giants and came out of it a star and a Super Bowl Champion.

Before him, another Jersey guy had his own story which ended with a catch on his helmet, at the most critical point of the season, which pumped new life into his team which went on to win the most unlikely Super Bowl for the ages. David Tyree's famous catch was, for him, part of a grander plan tied into his faith which helped turned his life around when it was spinning out of control.

Now, Tommy DeVito, the latest of the Jersey guy longshots, now gets his opportunity to write his story into Giant lore.

Peace!

Hes no fluke
He has in his words "been playing this game for a long time"

His field vision, pocket mobility, leadership skills, accuracy, ball placement are all world class

If he runs the table and keeps adding to his "game" he should be and likely will be the starter by October next year.  Jones may get a few starts but we all know how that goes.

OR The Giants find a willing trade partner for Jones

Behind a great Oline and with aa dynamic RB and WRs Jones should do pretty well- thats not us
Also the trade partner needs to be a veteran team as Jones is not very dynamic personality wise.  No one is going to run through a brick wall for Dan Jones.  For Tommy they bend over backwards.

DeVito has a confidence that is rare. Telling Barkley after the fumble - "Dont worry we have got this" was classic and inspiring.  Next time Barkey trips he should roll onto his shoulder in the air to prevent landing on the ball.  Was a weird play

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 14, 2023, 01:09:18 PMI get it...as apposed to all those QBs who can throw long falling backwards who have not set their feet and do not step into the throw

all those guys like uhhhhh, and uhhhhhhh, and dont forget about duhhhhhh

What are you even talking about? Did you actually reread what you wrote before posting?

I know you have this uber man crush on Devito, good, great for you, but this site is for the "most informed" Giants fans, and I was simply posting what some of his faults were mechanics wise that are on any and every scouting website that would likely inform a lot of people here as to his mechanics.

So stop getting so emotional, we get you're head over heels but some of us actually like facts and information about our players and not just weird conspiracies. If you just want to man crush for 7 threads go to Twitter.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 14, 2023, 03:09:08 PMWhat are you even talking about? Did you actually reread what you wrote before posting?

I know you have this uber man crush on Devito, good, great for you, but this site is for the "most informed" Giants fans, and I was simply posting what some of his faults were mechanics wise that are on any and every scouting website that would likely inform a lot of people here as to his mechanics.

So stop getting so emotional, we get you're head over heels but some of us actually like facts and information about our players and not just weird conspiracies. If you just want to man crush for 7 threads go to Twitter.

My apologies my friend, and I hope we are.
I just dont get the whole Tommy cant throw deep thing

Danny cant or wont throw deep- Danny cant not Tommy.....Tommy can (if he is not falling down as he whips it) Only Mahommes can do that falling down side arm thing.

No one can accurately throw deep without stepping into the throw- thats all I meant

All man love aside   no emotions involved. I just feel the kid can make all the throws
A lot of fans seem to think this is a temporary illusion, a Linsanity
I dont think so

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 14, 2023, 03:23:19 PMMy apologies my friend, and I hope we are.
I just dont get the whole Tommy cant throw deep thing

Danny cant or wont throw deep- Danny cant not Tommy.....Tommy can (if he is not falling down as he whips it) Only Mahommes can do that falling down side arm thing.

No one can accurately throw deep without stepping into the throw- thats all I meant

All man love aside   no emotions involved. I just feel the kid can make all the throws
A lot of fans seem to think this is a temporary illusion, a Linsanity
I dont think so

The number of games is too few to be this confident that is the real deal.

Quote from: Philosophers on December 14, 2023, 04:28:58 PMThe number of games is too few to be this confident that is the real deal.

A number of people I listen to, including Bob Papa, say that it usually takes teams 4 games to get enough film to figure out what a QB does well or not (remember when some folks were wondering why the Giants didnt sign Josh Dobbs?)?

The next round of tests will be more telling.

Really not sure what they have revealed about Devito with the offense they are running.  Daboll/Kafka have done a good job of bringing him along as he has taken 1st string snaps.

It's far too early-like way way- to even pose such a question. I didn't realize that we were at such loose ends. If only we could simply calm down, get a grip, and stash the rash. Yikes!

Cheers!

Right now the Tommy DeVito story is still in Mike White mode. He's done very well relative to expectations but he has yet to genuinely impressive on a legitimately absolute basis. Is the latter coming? Maybe, Possibly. I don't know. It might, but it hasn't yet. I tend to doubt it will get dramatically better than what we have already seen, but I'm not going to say that for sure

The way he has played to this point suggests he is likely worthy of being a game managing NFL backup, and perhaps a good to very good one. But if he has what it takes to be a high level starter, I don't feel we have seen that yet. And I'm talking both numbers and eye test with that statement.

I am happy to remain open minded and continue to gather data. But so far the data points towards quality backup, not high level starter.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 14, 2023, 11:41:24 AMNo QB can be successful behind this OL  /sarcasm/

The O line has improved, you can't deny that!

Hard to know if the OL is improving, or Devito just has a superb internal sense when the line is breaking down and is very good at scatting out of trouble. He was always elusive in college and seems to be very aware of what's going on around him (like he has eyes in the back of his head) and having an escape route planned out...without giving up on watching and waiting for plays to unfold. You can't teach that...that's just instinct. Not saying he's the second coming of Mahommes, just saying that is his strength and time will tell how well he holds up once defenses figure out how to target any weaknesses in his game, and you can bet, coaches are studying every move in his past to figure out any weak spots

Let me put it to you this way. Jones is a dead man walking but I feel the Giants should still move heaven and earth to get their guy in this draft. He's been a wonderful story for a fan base in desperate need of some hope but he isn't it. I could see him hanging around as a backup for a long time though. 

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on December 14, 2023, 09:47:05 PMHard to know if the OL is improving, or Devito just has a superb internal sense when the line is breaking down and is very good at scatting out of trouble. He was always elusive in college and seems to be very aware of what's going on around him (like he has eyes in the back of his head) and having an escape route planned out...without giving up on watching and waiting for plays to unfold. You can't teach that...that's just instinct. Not saying he's the second coming of Mahommes, just saying that is his strength and time will tell how well he holds up once defenses figure out how to target any weaknesses in his game, and you can bet, coaches are studying every move in his past to figure out any weak spots

Do you think Daboll held TD back from running as a precaution until Tyrod came back? He played duck and cover before this past game.

Quote from: madbadger on December 14, 2023, 10:01:04 PMLet me put it to you this way. Jones is a dead man walking but I feel the Giants should still move heaven and earth to get their guy in this draft. He's been a wonderful story for a fan base in desperate need of some hope but he isn't it. I could see him hanging around as a backup for a long time though. 

Almost immediately both Taylor and DeVito made the Giants offense look better than what it was with Jones.

Mr. Thomas DeVito has managed, in four starts, to awaken the moribund New Jersey Giants. The Giant fans have been able to watch the last three games without cringing and pinning their hopes on the draft.

In two days the team will go up against the Saints in an away game. The stats, averaged for the season to date, cast a dark shadow, tinted 6 shades of gray, over the Giant's chances of a win.

But if we look at both team's stats for their last three games, a different picture appears.

This poor old country mouse will be watching come Sunday.

Go flag-free, Big Blue!
   

Quote from: madbadger on December 14, 2023, 10:01:04 PMLet me put it to you this way. Jones is a dead man walking but I feel the Giants should still move heaven and earth to get their guy in this draft. He's been a wonderful story for a fan base in desperate need of some hope but he isn't it. I could see him hanging around as a backup for a long time though. 

I'm with you.

Let's look at the last year of his life. Kid goes from being a 5 or 6 year college QB who was relatively undistinguished to being an UDFA to having an interesting preseason that turned heads to getting on the Giants' PS to being Taylor's backup and then to being the starter (due to no other options) and then literally making the most of that opportunity to this point. He ignited an otherwise dour, miserable fan base and has brought holiday cheer and excitement to everyone. On national television, in prime time, he had his best game yet. People have fallen in love with him and his family. It's been a great, fun, uplifting story. One way or another, the team is suddenly winning. He has played within himself (similar to the Jones gameplans of 2022). He has taken very good care of the football, especially for a rookie and especially given how often he has been sacked. He is starting to prove that he is "dependable", and I think it's fair to say he's tough (kid takes a ton of hits and unlike others doesn't get flustered and start checking it down and making mistakes), and I have no reason to think he's not smart. He seems to fit all three boxes.

Is he very talented though, like to the point where I feel he is a franchise QB? Personally, I don't think so. I'm happy to remain open-minded and re-evaluate after the season but I don't think that's what we're dealing with here. And that is not intended to be any sort of put-down. What I think we do have is a way better than expected, great find of a QB who appears to be more than capable of being a quality backup (in the game manager mold) for us for a long time and might have the upside to be a borderline starter a la Minshew/Mayfield. That's where I stand now myself. If other fans think he's the next Tom Brady, that is their prerogative, and they should go ahead and run with that if they so choose. No matter what, it has been a great story to this point, and I'm now actually looking forward to watching Giants games again.

Quote from: GloryDays on December 14, 2023, 08:27:55 PMThe O line has improved, you can't deny that!

Don't you find it odd the perceived O-line improvement coincides with a QB change?  I say perceived because the objectionable data suggest the line actually got worse, having allowed 8, 5, 9 and 6 sacks prior to last week's game.  Pressures have remained steady at 28% of passing downs.  Last week the pressures were on par with the average; yet, GB produced no sacks as a byproduct of some slick moves (in the pocket) by DeVito.  How many sure sacks did he avoid in the pocket...5?

Speaking of DeVito, I like his grit, mobility, and quick decision making; however, he has some tangible physical limitation that may prevent him from becoming a top-tier QB.  Regardless, I typically reserve judgement on QBs until they've started at least 20 games; my research indicates all QB demonstrate their skill-sets between games 23 – 30.  So, I'll continue to watch with a hopeful attitude that DeVito morphs into a Tony Romo like story.  Having said that, I do think his play has been inflated by a fan-base desperate for solid QB play, which is why some were fooled by DJ last season.  Fundamentally, if the Giants have a chance to draft a QB in '24, they should; retain Tommy as backup and release DJ in '25. 

Those who are trying to argue that the line has suddenly shape-shifted into a good line, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the QB changes (even though the supposed metamorphosis has suddenly occurred at precisely the same time that the QB changes have happened) should, if they really believe in what they're claiming, agree that if/when Jones goes back in as the starter, line play can no longer be a valid excuse if he doesn't play well.

It can't be that the line was terrible the whole time Jones was QB, then it suddenly became good for the stretch of games that Taylor/DeVito were the QBs, and then it reverted back to being awful exactly when Jones came back in. Even the most fanciful, confirmation-biased person has to see how ridiculous that sounds.

I tought his success were unsustainable. But........it was before I saw the breakdown of the Hodgins TD.

We all saw the great throw on the run, but how about :
  -going through his progression.
  -evading the rush.
  -and like i said, making a throw right on the money, where only hodgins could have his hands on it.

Now I think it's sustainable. He does what Daboll ask of his QB's, do not make dangerous (stupid) throws. As long as he trusts the coaching staff, the coaching staff will continue to trust him.

Last observation from the Packers game, he threw the ball away. Nothing was there, he threw it away. He plays like a mature QB.

Quote from: aBladeOfBlue on December 15, 2023, 07:53:40 AMI tought his success were unsustainable. But........it was before I saw the breakdown of the Hodgins TD.

We all saw the great throw on the run, but how about :
  -going through his progression.
  -evading the rush.
  -and like i said, making a throw right on the money, where only hodgins could have his hands on it.

Now I think it's sustainable. He does what Daboll ask of his QB's, do not make dangerous (stupid) throws. As long as he trusts the coaching staff, the coaching staff will continue to trust him.

Last observation from the Packers game, he threw the ball away. Nothing was there, he threw it away. He plays like a mature QB.

He is definitely exhibiting poise and maturity. He's been impressive relative to expectations. Before anyone saw him play in the preseason, by looking at his college career and considering he was undrafted, I can't imagine anyone had any sort of expectations for him. If he ends up being a solid, dependable backup, that's a huge beat of expectations. Think of all the QBs in the league who are "solid backups" who had very good to great college careers.

I don't personally love the comparisons to Victor Cruz, because Cruz played for UMass, which is a football school that is kind of off the grid and doesn't play good teams. DeVito played for two power five schools, so his track record is easier to analyze (ie he was up against respectable Big 10 and ACC competition throughout his career). Cruz was way more of an unknown.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 15, 2023, 07:45:17 AMDon't you find it odd the perceived O-line improvement coincides with a QB change?  I say perceived because the objectionable data suggest the line actually got worse, having allowed 8, 5, 9 and 6 sacks prior to last week's game.  Pressures have remained steady at 28% of passing downs.  Last week the pressures were on par with the average; yet, GB produced no sacks as a byproduct of some slick moves (in the pocket) by DeVito.  How many sure sacks did he avoid in the pocket...5?

Speaking of DeVito, I like his grit, mobility, and quick decision making; however, he has some tangible physical limitation that may prevent him from becoming a top-tier QB.  Regardless, I typically reserve judgement on QBs until they've started at least 20 games; my research indicates all QB demonstrate their skill-sets between games 23 – 30.  So, I'll continue to watch with a hopeful attitude that DeVito morphs into a Tony Romo like story.  Having said that, I do think his play has been inflated by a fan-base desperate for solid QB play, which is why some were fooled by DJ last season.  Fundamentally, if the Giants have a chance to draft a QB in '24, they should; retain Tommy as backup and release DJ in '25. 

For the record, poor protection is not the fault of the QB at least not in this case.


https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1735464758776672542?s=20


https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1735645893661991279?s=20

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 15, 2023, 08:15:12 AMHe is definitely exhibiting poise and maturity. He's been impressive relative to expectations. Before anyone saw him play in the preseason, by looking at his college career and considering he was undrafted, I can't imagine anyone had any sort of expectations for him. If he ends up being a solid, dependable backup, that's a huge beat of expectations. Think of all the QBs in the league who are "solid backups" who had very good to great college careers.

I don't personally love the comparisons to Victor Cruz, because Cruz played for UMass, which is a football
school that is kind of off the grid and doesn't play good teams. DeVito played for two power five schools, so his track record is easier to analyze (ie he was up against respectable Big 10 and ACC competition throughout his career). Cruz was way more of an unknown.

I agree the Cruz comparison is shady.

But I don't agree with the backup thing. We saw unspectacular, but efficient QBs start in this league throughout history. I think he can belong to this category. DeVito is not spectacular, but if he continues with the consistency and efficiency, the kid is going to be a starter in this league, especially in a league where QBs drop like flies.

As of right now, as he continues to improve as a game-manager, he's getting the call. If it's not with us, it's going to be with another team. If Trent Dilfer started a lot of games in this league, I think DeVito can.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 15, 2023, 08:27:56 AMFor the record, poor protection is not the fault of the QB at least not in this case.


https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1735464758776672542?s=20


https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1735645893661991279?s=20

I'm actually afraid that when Neal is ready, Daboll puts him back at RT and it shuts down the passing game. Too bad they can't loan him to the Eagles for a few months and have him come back a better player like Phillips. Which leads me to think a trade may be possible if teams know he's salvageable with proper coaching. I jest of course. But the fear is real.

To answer the question:

Most of TD's traits seem NFL caliber, and he certainly has the intangibles.  It would seem the real limiter would be TD's arm strength.  So, doing a bit of research, here are QBs with weaker arms who have enjoyed success:

1) Drew Brees
2) Tua Tagovailoa
3) DeShaun Watson
4) Brock Purdy
5) Matt Ryan

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 15, 2023, 08:51:33 AMI'm actually afraid that when Neal is ready, Daboll puts him back at RT and it shuts down the passing game. Too bad they can't loan him to the Eagles for a few months and have him come back a better player like Phillips. Which leads me to think a trade may be possible if teams know he's salvageable with proper coaching. I jest of course. But the fear is real.

Ed,

It's a tough situation, a sort of damned if you do/damned if you don't.  As you said, putting Neal back in could short-circuit the passing game again, but if you don't, you lose a chance to see if he is salvageable.

There were some fans who jumped the gun in the preseason and wanted DeVito as the backup. Now we have a couple that want him as the starter next season. We get these proclamations every season with some player and most times they don't pan out and they go on to the next wild assertion, hoping to be on the cutting edge with an Itoldyouso.

At some point we will see Defensive Coordinators use disguise, stunts and delayed blitzes in the A Gap and cutting off that right roll out. At some point he's going to have to hit those short crosses and slants because at some point Corners will start jumping those Swings and Flats. Then we will see how he adjusts. To this point they have held him back from throwing Deep Posts and Go Routes. Which makes me question his deep ball but Hyatt is still not being properly utilized. Green Bay was never in a Cover Two Shell all game.

The other thing I'm expecting is some reporter will start digging up dirt on his family and in something he did in College or High School. They will strike his family as opportunistic getting his name on products and merchandise while the iron is hot.

I actually think he has what it takes to survive and to be a starter in this league. It's going to come down to how high his ceiling is and if he can continue to learn and grow at the exponential rate that he's shown this year. I remember what he looked like his first couple of days at camp and how he got better every day. I believe in his case coming into the league as a mature adult with a large body of playing experience helped him. So far he's been absorbing like a sponge.

What I refuse to do is jump on a bandwagon and make wild assertions and predictions. It's more than fair to be balanced and review both the good and what needs improvement. Those game changing plays he left on the field have to be addressed and get him to see them develop early. That's the next step along with his Coaches being proactive in anticipation of what Defenses will start throwing at him.

Very well stated, Ed. A couple of things to tack onto your observation. First, defensive strategies against DJ have been studied, restudied, applied, fixed, adjusted, etc., to pinpoint any perceived weakness in his game and exploit it...not so with Devito. In fact, it's easy to surmise that defenses didn't get overly concerned with an undrafted QB entering the game and the defense strategically focused more on Saquon, chip passes to Wan'Dale, the possibility of Devito running with the ball, etc. Especially after Devito's first game, where he wasn't even allowed to throw a ball. Even after defensive coordinators eventually realized Tommy can throw the dang ball, they didn't respect that early in games and had to finally adjust after seeing what he can do before their very eyes. In short, defensive strategies will evolve that will make the game more difficult for Devito now that every DC in the NFL has seen his tape and replayed it over and over before facing him

On the other side of the coin though, is Devito's discernible poise and "spacial awareness" (a term coined by Daboll explaining why Wan'Dale can be special). We never hear about spacial awareness, but I believe that is a vital and instinctive intangible of a successful QB in the NFL. Mahommes, Allen, Burrow, etc., have it...as did Brady in his heyday. It's possible that DJ, with all the perfect elements of a great QB, from his arm, his height, foot speed, great accuracy, high intelligence, etc., but perhaps is lacking somewhat in that intangible spacial awareness aspect that separates the wheat from the chaff. I hope not, but I don't know, just thinking out loud and typing as I do  :-??

I still think its a fluke. But here is a good film break down

When Tommy tells people "Listen I've been playing this game for a long time".
He is not kidding.  As I've said before DeVito likely did not just fall off a Pumpkin Wagon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0kyFiUo1FU

Explains how Tommy is so much better at reading the defenses, and getting the ball out so quick

Apparently this coach also worked with Will Levis

He does mention they were lucky Tommy was not drafted.   Giving them the ability to pick a destination.  a Lot of teams were interested when he left Syracuse for the portal  and after the draft .....both times they chose well

Daboll greatly responsibile for Tommy's NFL ability

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 14, 2023, 11:41:24 AMNo QB can be successful behind this OL  /sarcasm/

Yeah. Our OL blocks worse than those electric football game pieces.

Quote from: aBladeOfBlue on December 15, 2023, 08:36:06 AMI agree the Cruz comparison is shady.

With all the respect in the world for you, I referenced both Cruz and Tyree but not for the reasons you are analyzing.

My intention was to point out that the Giants have done well signing local talent who eventually went on to play big roles in big games for them. I cited Tyree and Cruz in the last two Super Bowls and offered the possibility why not DeVito one day?

That's all. It was meant for consideration. But you are most welcome to comment as you like.

I don't believe we've exchanged posts before. I'm Chris, welcome aboard!

Peace!

RGIII makes a lot of sense in this interview. TD was the best thing for DJ. Jones will be the starting QB next season and he should not come back until he is at his best to do so. Having Tommy to start the season and as a backup in case Jones fails will be a good setup for the season. It give the Giants more opportunities to build the team that n the draft and not give away the farm to move up. It's a shame what happened to RG's career. It was badly mismanaged.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/15/sports/tommy-devito-best-thing-for-daniel-jones-giants-future-rgiii/amp/

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 16, 2023, 10:45:02 AMRGIII makes a lot of sense in this interview. TD was the best thing for DJ. Jones will be the starting QB next season and he should not come back until he is at his best to do so. Having Tommy to start the season and as a backup in case Jones fails will be a good setup for the season. It give the Giants more opportunities to build the team that n the draft and not give away the farm to move up. It's a shame what happened to RG's career. It was badly mismanaged.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/15/sports/tommy-devito-best-thing-for-daniel-jones-giants-future-rgiii/amp/

Article posted here to underscore @TDToomer point.

All i know is if he was a rookie starting the season like this, we'd all be very excited. IMO hes the second best rookie qb this year. he looks the part, but lets see what happens after a bad game, or against an elite defense. can he take the next step? can he take over a game?  i will say the poise he showed on the game winning drive was impressive. zero fear, zero panic. stood in there and made solid plays like a vet.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 15, 2023, 09:15:59 AMThere were some fans who jumped the gun in the preseason and wanted DeVito as the backup. Now we have a couple that want him as the starter next season. We get these proclamations every season with some player and most times they don't pan out and they go on to the next wild assertion, hoping to be on the cutting edge with an Itoldyouso.

At some point we will see Defensive Coordinators use disguise, stunts and delayed blitzes in the A Gap and cutting off that right roll out. At some point he's going to have to hit those short crosses and slants because at some point Corners will start jumping those Swings and Flats. Then we will see how he adjusts. To this point they have held him back from throwing Deep Posts and Go Routes. Which makes me question his deep ball but Hyatt is still not being properly utilized. Green Bay was never in a Cover Two Shell all game.

The other thing I'm expecting is some reporter will start digging up dirt on his family and in something he did in College or High School. They will strike his family as opportunistic getting his name on products and merchandise while the iron is hot.

I actually think he has what it takes to survive and to be a starter in this league. It's going to come down to how high his ceiling is and if he can continue to learn and grow at the exponential rate that he's shown this year. I remember what he looked like his first couple of days at camp and how he got better every day. I believe in his case coming into the league as a mature adult with a large body of playing experience helped him. So far he's been absorbing like a sponge.

What I refuse to do is jump on a bandwagon and make wild assertions and predictions. It's more than fair to be balanced and review both the good and what needs improvement. Those game changing plays he left on the field have to be addressed and get him to see them develop early. That's the next step along with his Coaches being proactive in anticipation of what Defenses will start throwing at him.

Ed Tommy has room for improvement

DJ on the other hand has proven to be Dave Brown II.  He has had 4 years to fix it
and has gotten worse not better.  Do you really want to see more?

He can be traded.  In a stronger offense he might actually get better.  Like David Carr he seems shell shocked.  It might not be too late for some other team to fix it

Ed

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 15, 2023, 09:15:59 AMThere were some fans who jumped the gun in the preseason and wanted DeVito as the backup. Now we have a couple that want him as the starter next season. We get these proclamations every season with some player and most times they don't pan out and they go on to the next wild assertion, hoping to be on the cutting edge with an Itoldyouso.

At some point we will see Defensive Coordinators use disguise, stunts and delayed blitzes in the A Gap and cutting off that right roll out. At some point he's going to have to hit those short crosses and slants because at some point Corners will start jumping those Swings and Flats. Then we will see how he adjusts. To this point they have held him back from throwing Deep Posts and Go Routes. Which makes me question his deep ball but Hyatt is still not being properly utilized. Green Bay was never in a Cover Two Shell all game.

The other thing I'm expecting is some reporter will start digging up dirt on his family and in something he did in College or High School. They will strike his family as opportunistic getting his name on products and merchandise while the iron is hot.

I actually think he has what it takes to survive and to be a starter in this league. It's going to come down to how high his ceiling is and if he can continue to learn and grow at the exponential rate that he's shown this year. I remember what he looked like his first couple of days at camp and how he got better every day. I believe in his case coming into the league as a mature adult with a large body of playing experience helped him. So far he's been absorbing like a sponge.

What I refuse to do is jump on a bandwagon and make wild assertions and predictions. It's more than fair to be balanced and review both the good and what needs improvement. Those game changing plays he left on the field have to be addressed and get him to see them develop early. That's the next step along with his Coaches being proactive in anticipation of what Defenses will start throwing at him.

I was a fan of Devito immediately after seeing him in preseason. I had pointed out how impressive it was to see him learn from and immediately correct his mistakes in real time. The same has happened in his few regular season games. The game is slowing down a bit for him. This is the stuff that is most encouraging about Devito in my mind (in addition to what he told Barkley after the fumble)....add to the mix his "Broadway Joe" Jim McMahon red furry coat he wore to the game last week is nice moxy. I think he can easily be a McMahon or Plunkett. The question is, athletically speaking, can he also be a Breez or Purdy?

I don't remember saying Devito should be the backup early on because I like Tyrod a lot....but I was extremely worried about losing him to another team by not having him make our roster. I got hit hard on that one and was proven totally wrong as the posters here were 100% correct and he thankfully made our practice squad. On the other hand, some felt he shouldn't even be in the NFL. Bottom line is most of us here are 50/50 on evaluating players. I was all in on Sills and down on Thibs. Appears I was wrong on both (although I'm still hoping Sills gets a chance). The best part of Tommy Devito is what we learned about Jones as a result of Tommy's play and our Oline and WR who weren't as bad as some thought.

This is a wonderful story and it's nice to have something to play for in December. Let's hope Cincinnati can beat the Vikings today!

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 16, 2023, 01:22:56 PMEd Tommy has room for improvement

DJ on the other hand has proven to be Dave Brown II.  He has had 4 years to fix it
and has gotten worse not better.  Do you really want to see more?

He can be traded.  In a stronger offense he might actually get better.  Like David Carr he seems shell shocked.  It might not be too late for some other team to fix it

Ed

He can only be traded if some team picks up a Giant portion of his Dead Cap hit. He's not going anywhere in 2024. If he doesn't play well next season, there will be no team that will want him.

Daniel Jones is better than he showed this season. With a decent oline he can win a lot of games. My issue with him is in high stakes games, he folds. I was the first person to shout that out years ago before all you others jumped on the bandwagon. Still I kept an open mind and balanced approach. No hype, no bashing.

Quote from: Trench on December 16, 2023, 01:59:47 PMI was a fan of Devito immediately after seeing him in preseason. I had pointed out how impressive it was to see him learn from and immediately correct his mistakes in real time. The same has happened in his few regular season games. The game is slowing down a bit for him. This is the stuff that is most encouraging about Devito in my mind (in addition to what he told Barkley after the fumble)....add to the mix his "Broadway Joe" Jim McMahon red furry coat he wore to the game last week is nice moxy. I think he can easily be a McMahon or Plunkett. The question is, athletically speaking, can he also be a Breez or Purdy?

I don't remember saying Devito should be the backup early on because I like Tyrod a lot....but I was extremely worried about losing him to another team by not having him make our roster. I got hit hard on that one and was proven totally wrong as the posters here were 100% correct and he thankfully made our practice squad. On the other hand, some felt he shouldn't even be in the NFL. Bottom line is most of us here are 50/50 on evaluating players. I was all in on Sills and down on Thibs. Appears I was wrong on both (although I'm still hoping Sills gets a chance). The best part of Tommy Devito is what we learned about Jones as a result of Tommy's play and our Oline and WR who weren't as bad as some thought.

This is a wonderful story and it's nice to have something to play for in December. Let's hope Cincinnati can beat the Vikings today!

I think Tommy has a higher ceiling than some folks here give him credit for. He's never had a Brian Daboll and Tommy's growth day one to today is incredible. He absorbs like a sponge apparently and has good football instincts. I cross my fingers.

I think Schoen and company would lose a ton of the good will they currently have built up if the put Jones out there again next year.

I think they could easily sell wanting to not draft a Qb inorder to continue building the team to see what Devito has for a year.

If however by some chance they don't see Devito as the longterm answer then I still think you can't put Jones out there for year 6 of him taking unnecessary sacks and refusing to throw beyond 5 yards.

Replying to the thread title.

If we measure by wins, Mr. Thomas DeVito's first win set the fluke vs. sustainable percent at 50.
Two wins in a row changed it to 75%
Three and it's upped to 87%
If today's [12/17/23] game's a win for Mr. DeVito, the sustainable value rises to a whopping 94%.

Somewhere along the line, and five wins in a row would boost the probability to 97%, you would have to conclude that Mr. Thomas DeVito's the real deal.

Go flag-free, Big Blue!

Quote from: LennG on December 14, 2023, 02:37:47 PMBob

I disagree entirely. Yes, he may well end up being a 'fluke' but he has already won 2 games, a lot more than any other QB on the team. WHY is that? Are teams not prepared for him?
He is a real unknown but he also has no experience. Maybe if he were in his third year as a backup and then entered and did what he has done, what would you say then?
If he proceeds to lose the remaining games then he was a fluke--I hardly doubt it. In reality, looking at our schedule, no one really expected us to win any more games starting with GB yet we did. Was that a fluke win? He pulled an Eli Manning, drove the team sown the field with less than 2 minutes left, and that, my friend, was no fluke.

In 4 starts, he's averaging 170 passing yards / game. In his 3 wins, the defense has forced 12 turnovers and given up 16 points / game.

He's most definitely a fluke. Fun story, easy to root for, but still a fluke.

Maybe I am getting into semantics here but if by "Devito's success" we are talking about can his current performances of 170 passing yards/game, then yes I am confident he can continue to do that. 

If we are talking about whether the wins will continue, that's another story and Devito is only part of the answer.

If we are talking about ii he is able to improve his passing game, I think he can, but not sure how much or how little.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 17, 2023, 09:11:26 AMMaybe I am getting into semantics here but if by "Devito's success" we are talking about can his current performances of 170 passing uards/game, then yes I am confident he can continue to do that. 

If we are talking about whether the wins will continue, that's another story and Devito is only part of the answer.

If we are talking about is he able to improve his passing game, I think he can, but not sure how much or how little.

The wins we have been getting recently remind me a lot of the wins we got when we started 6-1 last year: bad and often very banged up opponents, a training wheels style offense for us, smart game plans, generally solid defense, and a LOT of luck going our way. Consider the absurd number of opponent turnovers we have enjoyed during this stretch. Sure, our defense deserves credit for some of that, but there have also been muffed punts, fluky fumbles, silly INTs, missed chip shot field goals in big spots, and other things that weren't really the D so much as they were ineptitude by the opposing offense or special teams unit.

On offense, we have employed the same type of approach that Daboll did with Jones last year. So far, it has worked, and that's great, but I don't view it as a long term platform.

Still, the DeVito situation is fluid to some degree. To be clear, I am not in the camp that he is the long term answer at starter, but I am also guessing the main naysayers never would have predicted back in August when people were hyping him in the preseason that he might be a long term solution as the team's backup, which he now appears to be the potential base case assuming he holds his own for these last four games.

As I said in another thread, right now I'm just enjoying the ride. I see no point in being a dour, cranky scrooge about this DeVito story provided we continue to win games. On the other hand, if he starts to falter noticeably and we start losing, I am also not going to just cling to the three game winning streak and ignore all the other less flattering data, as I suspect some might do under those circumstances.

We have the whole spring and summer to ponder this team's short, medium, and long term QB situation. People can obviously contemplate whatever they wish, but right now I'm just being a fan, and that has been refreshingly enjoyable recently, especially compared to most of the last decade.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 09:30:02 AMThe wins we have been getting recently remind me a lot of the wins we got when we started 6-1 last year: bad and often very banged up opponents, a training wheels style offense for us, smart game plans, generally solid defense, and a LOT of luck going our way. Consider the absurd number of opponent turnovers we have enjoyed during this stretch. Sure, our defense deserves credit for some of that, but there have also been muffed punts, fluky fumbles, silly INTs, missed chip shot field goals in big spots, and other things that weren't really the D so much as they were ineptitude by the opposing offense or special teams unit.

On offense, we have employed the same type of approach that Daboll did with Jones last year. So far, it has worked, and that's great, but I don't view it as a long term platform.

Still, the DeVito situation is fluid to some degree. To be clear, I am not in the camp that he is the long term answer at starter, but I am also guessing the main naysayers never would have predicted back in August when people were hyping him in the preseason that he might be a long term solution as the team's backup, which he now appears to be the potential base case assuming he holds his own for these last four games.

As I said in another thread, right now I'm just enjoying the ride of all this. I see no point in being a dour, cranky scrooge about this DeVito story provided we continue to win games. On the other hand, if he starts to falter noticeably and we start losing, I am also not going to just cling to the three game winning streak and ignore all the other less flattering data, as I suspect some might do under those circumstances.

We have the whole spring and summer to ponder this team's short, medium, and long term QB situation. People can obviously contemplate whatever they wish, but right now I'm just being a fan, and it's been very enjoyable recently.

The team has eked out 3 wins with a +9 t/o margin. 

Like you said, I am enjoying watching the games and I have no need to rush to judgement in either direction.   I am happy the play of the backup QBs has been better than what we saw a couple of years ago and we have the rest of the season to watch Devito grow as a player. 

I get the excitement as the team is now playing meaningful games in mid December.  Further, it will be nice to end the year with things moving in the right direction rather than the opposite.

I felt bad for Jake Fromm with that dysfunctional coaching staff and abysmal Oline. I think he would have had some success under Daboll.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 09:30:02 AMThe wins we have been getting recently remind me a lot of the wins we got when we started 6-1 last year: bad and often very banged up opponents, a training wheels style offense for us, smart game plans, generally solid defense, and a LOT of luck going our way. Consider the absurd number of opponent turnovers we have enjoyed during this stretch. Sure, our defense deserves credit for some of that, but there have also been muffed punts, fluky fumbles, silly INTs, missed chip shot field goals in big spots, and other things that weren't really the D so much as they were ineptitude by the opposing offense or special teams unit.

On offense, we have employed the same type of approach that Daboll did with Jones last year. So far, it has worked, and that's great, but I don't view it as a long term platform.

Still, the DeVito situation is fluid to some degree. To be clear, I am not in the camp that he is the long term answer at starter, but I am also guessing the main naysayers never would have predicted back in August when people were hyping him in the preseason that he might be a long term solution as the team's backup, which he now appears to be the potential base case assuming he holds his own for these last four games.

As I said in another thread, right now I'm just enjoying the ride. I see no point in being a dour, cranky scrooge about this DeVito story provided we continue to win games. On the other hand, if he starts to falter noticeably and we start losing, I am also not going to just cling to the three game winning streak and ignore all the other less flattering data, as I suspect some might do under those circumstances.

We have the whole spring and summer to ponder this team's short, medium, and long term QB situation. People can obviously contemplate whatever they wish, but right now I'm just being a fan, and that has been refreshingly enjoyable recently, especially compared to most of the last decade.

If he can win today and somehow pull off a Christmas miracle against Philly I have a hunch many will see it differently.

Ultimately, it's amazing what a difference a week or couple wins can make in the NFL.

Regardless of what happens today!

If he beats the Eagles at least once, and the Eagles don't have the B team out there I think he becomes more legit than fluke.

A win today and against the Eagles and we would have to ask to see more and want more as we haven't beaten the eagles in forever!

Regardless I'm just enjoying a few more wins and hoping for the best!  This is a JS and Dabs issue to figure out as us fans have no say anyway.

Quote from: Stringer Bell on December 17, 2023, 07:39:37 AMIn 4 starts, he's averaging 170 passing yards / game. In his 3 wins, the defense has forced 12 turnovers and given up 16 points / game.

He's most definitely a fluke. Fun story, easy to root for, but still a fluke.

when did passing yards per game become the gating factor?
If so Kerry Collins who did everything else wrong is a lock for Canton

Ed:   Forget last year's playoff game vs. Philly...they were monsters.  DJ was in a playoff game vs Minny..  Remember his stats and the result. He still has not had a solid cast on O, esp. the OL.  Jury still out on him, and we won't know until someday he gets a full season with a decent O and OL.  That may or may not be in NY.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 17, 2023, 11:36:36 AMwhen did passing yards per game become the gating factor?
If so Kerry Collins who did everything else wrong is a lock for Canton

You can't win long term in the modern NFL with 150 pasing yards period.

Quote from: Trench on December 17, 2023, 09:58:55 AMIf he can win today and somehow pull off a Christmas miracle against Philly I have a hunch many will see it differently.

Ultimately, it's amazing what a difference a week or couple wins can make in the NFL.

Of course I agree with that, hence why I called the situation fluid. These last four games matter a lot for his perception. If his first four starts have mattered as much as they have (in fact it's three starts because people have given him a full pass for the Dallas start), then his second four should matter just as much in my opinion.

Quote from: President Rick on December 17, 2023, 11:44:04 AMEd:  Forget last year's playoff game vs. Philly...they were monsters.  DJ was in a playoff game vs Minny..  Remember his stats and the result. He still has not had a solid cast on O, esp. the OL.  Jury still out on him, and we won't know until someday he gets a full season with a decent O and OL.  That may or may not be in NY.

Minnesota was a historically bad secondary. Jones got outplayed be the 2 qbs behind him, that should never happen.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2023, 11:46:21 AMYou can't win long term in the modern NFL with 150 pasing yards period.

You can if you have a great running and are managing to control the clock.  Right now no team has that type of running attack and offensive philosophy.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2023, 11:46:21 AMYou can't win long term in the modern NFL with 150 pasing yards period.

Are you secretly Daniel Jones?

150 yds plus 71 rushing. 221yds

he had over 200 vs Washington

You are foolish to pass on a Belichick defense

You are discounting the other 9 attributes a good QB must have
any particular reason

he has a plus 100 QB Rating for the last 3 games all wins

8 TDS?

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 17, 2023, 12:03:16 PMAre you secretly Daniel Jones?

150 yds plus 71 rushing. 221yds

he had over 200 vs Washington

You are foolish to pass on a Belichick defense

You are discounting the other 9 attributes a good QB must have
any particular reason

he has a plus 100 QB Rating for the last 3 games all wins

8 TDS?

Name 1 Qb that is currently winning at a high level consistently in the NFL averaging less than 200 yards passing? It's ok I'll wait.....

If you would have paid attention to any thread other than the ones you spam you would realize that I am in no way a fan of Daniel Jones.

The patriots are averaging 220 yards a game through the air on defense and giving up the 15th best passer rating, so why wouldn't people throw against them they've only won 3 games all year?

Look I know you are extremely invested in Devito, we all know it you've made it abundantly clear. I simply stated that you can't win in the NFL averaging 150 a game. The NFL is a passing league now, and all the best teams throw the football at high volume.

Devito is a great story and Daboll/Kafka are doing exactly what they did with Jones last season, playing mistake free football and leaning on the defense. That's great and Devito has made plays when called upon.

The fact still remains that you need an elite Qb to win super bowls and currently I don't see an elite Qb on our roster.

A Qb can have every trait in the world but if he can't throw the ball at a high clip then the other traits/attributes don't matter.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2023, 11:46:21 AMYou can't win long term in the modern NFL with 150 pasing yards period.

You got that part right, Jess. Even your whipping boy, Daniel has had more than few games every bit as productive as that. Rather, it was DeVito's last minute comeback resilience against the Pack which should be lauded. But, of course, did we not see Jones pull a major 2H come-from-behind against the Arizonas, earlier in the year?

The only way to know whether you have the "right guy" back there, and not just potentially, is for him to prove it competitively over time which is where they are with Daniel Jones right now for sure, and not yet remotely with DeVito.

By the way, while I will root for either and both, I'm not sold on either of them.

Cheers!

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2023, 01:04:31 PMName 1 Qb that is currently winning at a high level consistently in the NFL averaging less than 200 yards passing? It's ok I'll wait.....

If you would have paid attention to any thread other than the ones you spam you would realize that I am in no way a fan of Daniel Jones.

The patriots are averaging 220 yards a game through the air on defense and giving up the 15th best passer rating, so why wouldn't people throw against them they've only won 3 games all year?

Look I know you are extremely invested in Devito, we all know it you've made it abundantly clear. I simply stated that you can't win in the NFL averaging 150 a game. The NFL is a passing league now, and all the best teams throw the football at high volume.

Devito is a great story and Daboll/Kafka are doing exactly what they did with Jones last season, playing mistake free football and leaning on the defense. That's great and Devito has made plays when called upon.

The fact still remains that you need an elite Qb to win super bowls and currently I don't see an elite Qb on our roster.

A Qb can have every trait in the world but if he can't throw the ball at a high clip then the other traits/attributes don't matter.

I agree with everything you said except the part where u need an elite QB to win a Suoer Bowl. Hostetler, Plunkett, Williams, McMahon were not elite at all

Quote from: Trench on December 17, 2023, 01:13:28 PMI agree with everything you said except the part where u need an elite QB to win a Suoer Bowl. Hostetler, Plunkett, Williams, McMahon were not elite at all

That was decades ago, I said the modern NFL. In the modern NFL you need an elite qb to even hope to get there. Foles being the one example otherwise but what are your chances of replicating a playoff run like those eagles had. Slim to none.

Quote from: Trench on December 17, 2023, 01:13:28 PMI agree with everything you said except the part where u need an elite QB to win a Suoer Bowl. Hostetler, Plunkett, Williams, McMahon were not elite at all

Different eras. Ever since the league changed the rules about 14 years ago in a way that now vastly favors the passing game (including protecting QBs and inhibiting contact with receivers), teams have not been able to win Super Bowls with McMahon types and a run-based attack.

I am sorry, what success?

Quote from: coggs on December 17, 2023, 03:34:20 PMI am sorry, what success?

3-2 record as a starter on a team that is 2-7 in games that any other QB has started.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 04:00:45 PM3-2 record as a starter on a team that is 2-7 in games that any other QB has started.

that was a nightmare but it always happens in New Orleans unfortunately

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 17, 2023, 04:03:10 PMthat was a nightmare but it always happens in New Orleans unfortunately

I have seen the Giants lose games in New Orleans where our offense still points plenty of points on the board.

Today our offense could not do anything. It was a sorry display. Fewer than 200 total yards. DeVito was certainly a big part of that.

Needless to say our D was very bad too, so it's not just the offense. But even with a solid defensive performance you're not winning many games with an offense that bad.

We need upgrades throughout the offense, especially at the QB position.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 04:00:45 PM3-2 record as a starter on a team that is 2-7 in games that any other QB has started.

you are not being serious with this, are you?  Washington and New England are horrendous and the Giants still needed to hold on at the end. The Green Bay game he had 2 drives where he actually looked like he belongs in the NFL.  He was missing receivers all over the place.

Quote from: coggs on December 17, 2023, 04:07:09 PMyou are not being serious with this, are you?  Washington and New England are horrendous and the Giants still needed to hold on at the end. The Green Bay game he had 2 drives where he actually looked like he belongs in the NFL.  He was missing receivers all over the place.

You don't need to explain it to me, but thanks. My answer was tongue in cheek. I thought you might pick that up.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 14, 2023, 03:00:12 PMHes no fluke
He has in his words "been playing this game for a long time"

His field vision, pocket mobility, leadership skills, accuracy, ball placement are all world class

If he runs the table and keeps adding to his "game" he should be and likely will be the starter by October next year.  Jones may get a few starts but we all know how that goes.

OR The Giants find a willing trade partner for Jones

Behind a great Oline and with aa dynamic RB and WRs Jones should do pretty well- thats not us
Also the trade partner needs to be a veteran team as Jones is not very dynamic personality wise.  No one is going to run through a brick wall for Dan Jones.  For Tommy they bend over backwards.

DeVito has a confidence that is rare. Telling Barkley after the fumble - "Dont worry we have got this" was classic and inspiring.  Next time Barkey trips he should roll onto his shoulder in the air to prevent landing on the ball.  Was a weird play

 :hmm:

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 14, 2023, 03:00:12 PMHes no fluke
He has in his words "been playing this game for a long time"

His field vision, pocket mobility, leadership skills, accuracy, ball placement are all world class

If he runs the table and keeps adding to his "game" he should be and likely will be the starter by October next year.  Jones may get a few starts but we all know how that goes.

OR The Giants find a willing trade partner for Jones

Behind a great Oline and with aa dynamic RB and WRs Jones should do pretty well- thats not us
Also the trade partner needs to be a veteran team as Jones is not very dynamic personality wise.  No one is going to run through a brick wall for Dan Jones.  For Tommy they bend over backwards.

DeVito has a confidence that is rare. Telling Barkley after the fumble - "Dont worry we have got this" was classic and inspiring.  Next time Barkey trips he should roll onto his shoulder in the air to prevent landing on the ball.  Was a weird play

[teddy kgb voice} You're right.  He is not a fluke.[/teddy kgb voice] Saying it was a fluke would imply he was actually good at some point (by NFL standards).

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 04:05:38 PMI have seen the Giants lose games in New Orleans where our offense still points plenty of points on the board.

Today our offense could not do anything. It was a sorry display. Fewer than 200 total yards. DeVito was certainly a big part of that.

Needless to say our D was very bad too, so it's not just the offense. But even with a solid defensive performance you're not winning many games with an offense that bad.

We need upgrades throughout the offense, especially at the QB position.

To think the Giants actually won a Super Bowl the year they completely got their back ends handed to them by Brees and company in that same building (i.e. 2011). Humor off, I agree and it's never been a place they've played close to well in which dates back to the first time they played there in 1978.

This will go down as a game which should make it very easy for Schoen and Daboll to prioritize their needs heading into the off-season. While some of us will be ultimately disappointed in how they approach it, let's only hope the decisions they do make actually yield a tangible difference when we discuss this 366 days (leap year, you know) from now.

Peace!

He's neither. He's not good and if the giants think he's the option over drafting someone with genuine prospects, then I'm seriously worried.

This team and franchise will not go anywhere until we get a top QB.

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Quote from: Just_jimmy on December 17, 2023, 04:22:49 PMHe's neither. He's not good and if the giants think he's the option over drafting someone with genuine prospects, then I'm seriously worried.

This team and franchise will not go anywhere until we get a top QB.

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I don't think there's a serious chance the Giants think DeVito is the solution. At most, he might have proven to them they don't need to seek a backup QB (which is certainly valuable). Even if they draft someone and DeVito somehow outplays that person long-term... it's not the worst outcome.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 17, 2023, 05:11:57 PMI don't think there's a serious chance the Giants think DeVito is the solution. At most, he might have proven to them they don't need to seek a backup QB (which is certainly valuable). Even if they draft someone and DeVito somehow outplays that person long-term... it's not the worst outcome.

Not sure I agree with that.  Like it or not, Jones will be here next year due to his contract.  Cutting him would be a $69MM cap hit, $22MM more than keeping him on roster.  However, need a better back-up than DeVito.  With Jones's injury history history, you need insurance. 

Quote from: coggs on December 17, 2023, 05:17:38 PMNot sure I agree with that.  Like it or not, Jones will be here next year due to his contract.  Cutting him would be a $69MM cap hit, $22MM more than keeping him on roster.  However, need a better back-up than DeVito.  With Jones's injury history history, you need insurance. 

There's no doubt Jones is on the roster next year and the likely starter, and in my estimation serving in that role to an early-selection QB-in-waiting. To clarify, I mean DeVito may have proven worthy of being the backup on a going forward basis (likely to a top QB selection, not Jones). With that in mind, I see next year as another wash meant to facilitate the growth of a young QB. As such, I don't agree they need a better "backup" as this team is not good, being talent deficient across the roster. Investing in a "good" backup (by which I mean a plug and play veteran) is a waste to me, as this team cannot seriously compete with it's primary QB out (it couldn't do it with him in).

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 17, 2023, 05:31:20 PMThere's no doubt Jones is on the roster next year and the likely starter, and in my estimation serving in that role to an early-selection QB-in-waiting. To clarify, I mean DeVito may have proven worthy of being the backup on a going forward basis (likely to a top QB selection, not Jones). With that in mind, I see next year as another wash meant to facilitate the growth of a young QB. As such, I don't agree they need a better "backup" as this team is not good, being talent deficient across the roster. Investing in a "good" backup (by which I mean a plug and play veteran) is a waste to me, as this team cannot seriously compete with it's primary QB out (it couldn't do it with him in).

omes down to if they have a rookie QB on the roster they have reasonably high hopes for. If they do, I would agree with you - I doubt they'll go out and bring in another veteran QB when they already have Jones plus DeVito. I don't think they'll want to spend Tyrod type money on another QB when they already have Jones and DeVito there.

If they don't draft a QB though, which they clearly might not, then I could see them looking at the cheap, veteran backup market, mainly for the reasons Coggs said.

They'll have to make a decision about DeVito either way though. I personally don't think he'll clear waivers again in 2024, and I don't see them rostering three QBs under any circumstances.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 05:49:11 PMomes down to if they have a rookie QB on the roster they have reasonably high hopes for. If they do, I would agree with you - I doubt they'll go out and bring in another veteran QB when they already have Jones plus DeVito. I don't think they'll want to spend Tyrod type money on another QB when they already have Jones and DeVito there.

If they don't draft a QB though, which they clearly might not, then I could see them looking at the cheap, veteran backup market, mainly for the reasons Coggs said.

They'll have to make a decision about DeVito either way though. I personally don't think he'll clear waivers again in 2024, and I don't see them rostering three QBs under any circumstances.

Maybe they just keep Jones on IR, I'd they draft someone.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2023, 06:11:33 PMMaybe they just keep Jones on IR, I'd they draft someone.

That's totally possible. The theory that they could have him on the PUP to start the season and then find a way to IR DeVito has been thrown out here. We'll see I guess. For me the first order of business really is whether they're drafting a QB or not. That will answer a lot of questions.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 17, 2023, 06:16:32 PMThat's totally possible. The theory that they could have him on the PUP to start the season and then find a way to IR DeVito has been thrown out here. We'll see I guess. For me the first order of business really is whether they're drafting a QB or not. That will answer a lot of questions.

Jones will not be ready to start the season. And if he is he will be a shell of what wasn't much to begin with.

Reality set back in.  Another no show effort in a season full of them.  That's why you don't go crazy over ugly wins over the Patriots.  The Green Bay game was exciting but frankly they're banged up and not very good right now either.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 17, 2023, 06:11:33 PMMaybe they just keep Jones on IR, I'd they draft someone.

He and his agent would definitely file a grievance with the players union if they were dumb enough to try and IR him for the entire season. There is no get out of jail free card coming to rescue the Giants from that stupid contract.

Quote from: madbadger on December 17, 2023, 07:24:18 PMHe and his agent would definitely file a grievance with the players union if they were dumb enough to try and IR him for the entire season. There is no get out of jail free card coming to rescue the Giants from that stupid contract.

Thank you! I am tired of fans coming up with ridiculous plans to fake injury players to an IR or refuse to active healthy players. Jones will be on the opening day roster period and at worst be PUP to start the season.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 17, 2023, 09:18:55 PMThank you! I am tired of fans coming up with ridiculous plans to fake injury players to an IR or refuse to active healthy players. Jones will be on the opening day roster period and at worst be PUP to start the season.

ACL recovery is about a year. Best case scenario for Jones is to be on the field sometime in October. And usually back to normal quality usually a year after that. In any case he will be diminished. The Giants need a QB.

Any backup quarterback on this team will get ample opportunities to take reps with the ones. Lucky them.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 17, 2023, 09:18:55 PMThank you! I am tired of fans coming up with ridiculous plans to fake injury players to an IR or refuse to active healthy players. Jones will be on the opening day roster period and at worst be PUP to start the season.

Who said anything about faking injuries? Jones had surgery like 20 days ago and isn't healthy currently so he would be on either pup or IR depending on when they would designated it... which would leave just Devito on the active roster.

All i was saying is that you don't have to rush Jones back if you have Devito and a Rookie on the active roster. I was replying to Dave and he understood it by his response and yet you added a few assumptions along the way.

Quote from: katkavage on December 17, 2023, 09:39:38 PMACL recovery is about a year. Best case scenario for Jones is to be on the field sometime in October. And usually back to normal quality usually a year after that. In any case he will be diminished. The Giants need a QB.

Plenty players have made it back from an ACL in under a year. Kyler Murray for instance.

ACL surgery is now a 9 month recovery time,  not 1 year.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 18, 2023, 08:55:05 AMACL surgery is now a 9 month recovery time,  not 1 year.

Yeah I read 8-10 months. Schoen was clear that some patients rehab faster than others. But it's correct that it's no longer an automatic full year.

Even if Jones is "cleared" in time for week one, based on our recent experiences with Barkley, Martinez etc and their ability to be at the top of their games 9-12 months after the surgery, I'm not sure I see the Giants starting him week one. But we'll see. I have no idea.

Has it been reported that the injury was isolated to just the ACL or was the meniscus or other parts involved. That's going to determine the length of recovery.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 18, 2023, 08:35:33 AMPlenty players have made it back from an ACL in under a year. Kyler Murray for instance.

They are cleared to play, yes but rarely do they exhibit top form for almost another year. And Jones top form hasn't been very top to start with. He will be back because the Giants want some return on their money. Based on his injury history and mediocre performance they must bring in another QB.

Quote from: katkavage on December 18, 2023, 10:32:05 AMThey are cleared to play, yes but rarely do they exhibit top form for almost another year. And Jones top form hasn't been very top to start with. He will be back because the Giants want some return on their money. Based on his injury history and mediocre performance they must bring in another QB.

Actually, that's not true.  Modern surgical techniques have changed that paradigm. Brady and Bree's were MVPs the year following their ACL tears.  Cook and Peterson had MVP-type seasons too.  It's no longer 2-year recovery. 

Quote from: kingm56 on December 18, 2023, 10:54:07 AMActually, that's not true.  Modern surgical techniques have changed that paradigm. Brady and Bree's were MVPs the year following their ACL tears.  Cook and Peterson had MVP-type seasons too.  It's no longer 2-year recovery. 

Oh if only Danny had a modicum of Brady or Brees talent I'd feel better about his prospects.

Seems like there is so much misinformation on this thread regarding ACL recovery times and return to peak performance.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 18, 2023, 01:29:35 PMSeems like there is so much misinformation on this thread regarding ACL recovery times and return to peak performance.

Thankfully, one needs a medical degree to actually practice medicine. Imagine if anyone with an opinion who thinks he knows what he's talking about despite receiving zero formal training could be a doctor. Pretty scary thought, as we know how many of those types are out there!

Clearly, it was just a gimmick

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 18, 2023, 09:00:08 AMYeah I read 8-10 months. Schoen was clear that some patients rehab faster than others. But it's correct that it's no longer an automatic full year.

Even if Jones is "cleared" in time for week one, based on our recent experiences with Barkley, Martinez etc and their ability to be at the top of their games 9-12 months after the surgery, I'm not sure I see the Giants starting him week one. But we'll see. I have no idea.

Why would you want him back at all. He has become difficult to watch
Really Really Bad QB

Crash and Burn. Maybe he should had his mind on Football instead of all the distractions. He clearly lost his mojo.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/25/sports/giants-bench-tommy-devito-for-tyrod-taylor-against-eagles/amp/

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 25, 2023, 08:12:44 PMWhy would you want him back at all. He has become difficult to watch
Really Really Bad QB

I don't.

His contract makes him untradable.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 25, 2023, 08:17:06 PMCrash and Burn. Maybe he should had his mind on Football instead of all the distractions. He clearly lost his mojo.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/25/sports/giants-bench-tommy-devito-for-tyrod-taylor-against-eagles/amp/

I think the pro game is way too fast for him. There's a reason he was undrafted. He was OK against bottom feeders but when the talent was much better, he didn't have a gear that would allow him to compete on their level.

Quote from: T200 on December 25, 2023, 10:11:11 PMI think the pro game is way too fast for him. There's a reason he was undrafted. He was OK against bottom feeders but when the talent was much better, he didn't have a gear that would allow him to compete on their level.

I was talking with Frank yesterday. When I mentioned to him that DeVito may not be tall enough to see the short and intermediate routes and he needs to drop back deeper like Mayfield does. He told me that Drew Brees once said that he didn't see his Receivers in 60% of the passes he threw. It was all timing and anticipation from knowing his receivers. He's 6' and TD is 6'2". The Offensive and Defensive linemen are as tall as 6'6". Taylor isn't tall either. He moves within and out of the pocket to find an open passing lane for an open Receiver. These QB's can not be pure pocket passers. DeVito doesn't have the reps yet. I don't know if he can be developed into a solid backup yet because he lacked practice and game time with the starting Receivers and has had a handful of games. It looked to me that he was given a passing scheme short game and as they were taken away, he missed the crossing routes and mid range by holding the ball too long. Either not wanting to take chances or just not seeing an open passing lane. The league figured out his weaknesses. He needs a lot more training and experience and I don't know if a team will be able to invest starting opportunities for an undrafted FA. He can't survive on just Swing Passes and Flats, and the pass rush won't give him time to see his Receivers as they get deeper.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 25, 2023, 11:08:03 PMI was talking with Frank yesterday. When I mentioned to him that DeVito may not be tall enough to see the short and intermediate routes and he needs to drop back deeper like Mayfield does. He told me that Drew Brees once said that he didn't see his Receivers in 60% of the passes he threw. It was all timing and anticipation from knowing his receivers. He's 6' and TD is 6'2". The Offensive and Defensive linemen are as tall as 6'6". Taylor isn't tall either. He moves within and out of the pocket to find an open passing lane for an open Receiver. These QB's can not be pure pocket passers. DeVito doesn't have the reps yet. I don't know if he can be developed into a solid backup yet because he lacked practice and game time with the starting Receivers and has had a handful of games. It looked to me that he was given a passing scheme short game and as they were taken away, he missed the crossing routes and mid range by holding the ball too long. Either not wanting to take chances or just not seeing an open passing lane. The league figured out his weaknesses. He needs a lot more training and experience and I don't know if a team will be able to invest starting opportunities for an undrafted FA. He can't survive on just Swing Passes and Flats, and the pass rush won't give him time to see his Receivers as they get deeper.

I was thinking about the height thing a few weeks ago as to why Kafka hardly called any crossers for Robinson, Shep,  and Hodgins. Then I remembered Taylor is about the same height as TD.

This is where coaching comes in. Both the QB coach and OC need to design plays to make it easier for the QB.

Why Kafka doesn't move the pocket for any of his QBs is an issue for me.

Quote from: T200 on December 25, 2023, 11:15:19 PMI was thinking about the height thing a few weeks ago as to why Kafka hardly called any crossers for Robinson, Shep,  and Hodgins. Then I remembered Taylor is about the same height as TD.

This is where coaching comes in. Both the QB coach and OC need to design plays to make it easier for the QB.

Why Kafka doesn't move the pocket for any of his QBs is an issue for me.

If you're watching the Niners game, on the TD Pass by Darnold, he dropped back three steps from the Shotgun snap, his Center and Guards cleared out the middle and opened up about a two to three yard passing lane and he delivered a pass under the uprights. It takes a village.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 25, 2023, 11:29:17 PMIf you're watching the Niners game, on the TD Pass by Darnold, he dropped back three steps from the Shotgun snap, his Center and Guards cleared out the middle and opened up about a two to three yard passing lane and he delivered a pass under the uprights. It takes a village.

That's what an OC does.

Devito had two good games against two horrific defenses. Skins and Packers. Packers got lit up by the Panthers this past weekend to a tune of 30 points. The first time they scored over 20 points in like 9 weeks.

Devito stinks. The offense stinks.

Get a QB and a WR immediately.

Quote from: JT39 on December 26, 2023, 04:56:12 AMDevito had two good games against two horrific defenses. Skins and Packers. Packers got lit up by the Panthers this past weekend to a tune of 30 points. The first time they scored over 20 points in like 9 weeks.

Devito stinks. The offense stinks.

Get a QB and a WR immediately.

But, he LED THEM TO VICTORY! /sarcasm/  ::)