Big Blue Huddle

General Category => Big Blue Huddle => Topic started by: killarich on January 08, 2024, 02:23:02 AM

Poll
Question: What do you want Giants to do with #6 pick ?
Option 1: Take a QB no matter what, even if it is a reach at that point votes: 1
Option 2: Since we are missing out on the best QBs and Harrison, get next best WR ... we need a WR1 votes: 2
Option 3: BPA votes: 8
Option 4: Trade the farm including next year #1 to get a QB votes: 5
Option 5: Trade back and rack up picks votes: 5
Title: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: killarich on January 08, 2024, 02:23:02 AM
the Giants could have been locked into

I think we will miss out on the top 3 QBs and that is a bummer

I honestly dont know what I want, I want a QB but I also do NOT want to give up the farm including next years #1 to move up this draft

IF only IF we dont get a QB ...... I think we need to draft a WR1 if that dude after Harrison is available.


I think we are screwed QB wise this upcoming season. Jones coming off a torn ACL when his biggest strength is his legs is not a good position to be in.

What do you guys want to happen ?

Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: GordonGekko80 on January 08, 2024, 05:32:13 AM
Yesterday's win didn't change the cards a whole lot from a Draft perspective, whether you pick 5th or 6th doesn't change massively.

If you want to pick the best QB in the draft it's going to cost you, except if you own the first two picks, which was clear for weeks that this wasn't the case.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: londonblue on January 08, 2024, 05:52:59 AM
I do not see us giving up future picks for a QB trade up with DJ under his current contract as frustrating as many of us will find that.

Given this assumption I see 6 as a BPA irrespective of position type slot, with a possibility to trade back slightly. Particularly as we have needs pretty much everywhere.

The odds are given current thoughts on the draft (which can and will shift) that QB1,2 (maybe 3) are gone as is WR1, OT1 and maybe Edge1 (depending on QB3).

So if BPA is TE1, DT1, CB1 not QB leftovers or WR2, OT2 take them. If BPA is an OT or Edge take them and treat past picks as sunk costs. If you think you can get the guy you want at a small trade back then do that.

Free agency (for coaches and players) should be where we try to shore up OL and the draft should be where we try to add playmakers on both sides of the ball. We still have a roster talent deficit far beyond QB.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 07:09:40 AM
It's just hard to answer this as a fan because there are many variables I don't know.

I voted to move up, but that obviously presumes that (1) such a move is actually possible, and (2) that our front office believes whichever QB they are moving up for has a strong chance of being elite. Otherwise no thanks. The cost is too high to just take a gamble if they don't have a strong view. Plus unless the Bears want to keep Fields, it won't even be possible to do a trade anyway, even if we're willing to pay up.

Failing the above, I'd be "open for business" to trade down, and there is plenty of logic to doing that given all of our needs. However, I feel like this team lacks impact players, especially on offense. There is a real premium on top notch receivers, and getting one on a rookie deal is gold in today's NFL. So I could definitely see drafting someone like Nabers or Odunze.

Do I want to use our third top 7 overall pick in four years to take yet another offensive tackle? Not especially, but I guess I'm not closed to it if that's who we deem the beast player on the board to be. They could then take a guard somewhere in the middle of the draft (as well as trying Neal inside) and maybe that's enough for this line to finally turn the corner and be serviceable or better.

If we're not in love with any of the prospects available to us at 6th, then we should be open to trading down IMO. Being totally closed to that no matter what seems foolish. But base case is I think we should try to draft a high impact player there, presumably on offense but really BPA. And there's still a chance that could be a QB.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 09:02:39 AM
The Giants are an under-talented team.   Thanks to meaningless wins (I predicted that would happen back in October, but it doesn't make it any less painful), they pick 6th, which doesn't put them in a position to grab an elite QB prospect.   With the talent deficit it seems ill-advised to "trade the farm"

The Jags, the Chargers (who pick before us), and the Bengals are all on their coaches watching the playoffs along with the Giants, so an elite QB prospect doesn't magically make a contender (despite notable exceptions).

The Giants need to be a strong talented team and hope for some sort of miracle in terms of the QB position.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 09:12:00 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 09:02:39 AMThe Giants are an under-talented team.   Thanks to meaningless wins (I predicted that would happen back in October, but it doesn't make it any less painful), they pick 6th, which doesn't put them in a position to grab an elite QB prospect.   With the talent deficit it seems ill-advised to "trade the farm"

The Jags, the Chargers (who pick before us), and the Bengals are all on their coaches watching the playoffs along with the Giants, so an elite QB prospect doesn't magically make a contender (despite notable exceptions).

The Giants need to be a strong talented team and hope for some sort of miracle in terms of the QB position.

The Giants were second to last (behind Carolina) in "estimated wins" per the FO legacy guys (see below):

https://www.ftnfantasy.com/nfl/tools/team-total-dvoa

I could not find a precise definition of this, although I assume it's computed by a model that does exactly what it sounds like: estimates the number of expected wins you'd have if you played the exact season out many times. The Giants had 3.7 "estimated wins" but 6 real wins. In other words, we're picking lower than we probably deserve to be if we're going off the true caliber of our team. A handful of (if not most) of our wins were pretty lucky or, at least, extremely close.

To me, 6-11 makes me feel no better than 3-14 or 4-13. Some fans may disagree, and I respect that, but to me it's a terrible season either way. To not get a top three or four pick out of this year, particularly given where we are from a QB point of view, is painful.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Brooklyn Dave on January 08, 2024, 09:19:31 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 09:02:39 AMThe Giants are an under-talented team.  Thanks to meaningless wins (I predicted that would happen back in October, but it doesn't make it any less painful), they pick 6th, which doesn't put them in a position to grab an elite QB prospect.  With the talent deficit it seems ill-advised to "trade the farm"

The Jags, the Chargers (who pick before us), and the Bengals are all on their coaches watching the playoffs along with the Giants, so an elite QB prospect doesn't magically make a contender (despite notable exceptions).

The Giants need to be a strong talented team and hope for some sort of miracle in terms of the QB position.

If we are looking for an edge rusher, Latu, Chip Robinson, Verse and Turner should be around at 6

If we looking at  a receiver, Odunze, Nabers, Coleman and Boweres should be around , although I am not sure about Boweres as the Chargers could grab him.

Alt should be there at 6

Totally agree in not trading the farm to move up in the draft . My evidence is the Panthers and Bryce Young 
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Slugsy-Narrows on January 08, 2024, 09:26:26 AM
If there is a run on QBs for the top 4 teams and 2-3 QBs are picked at 6 we are looking at still getting a top 3 pick potentially cause we know not all of those QBs will be home runs.  1 or more will not live up to potential.

How many #1 QBs are busts.  Hence tanking or winning irrelevant games as some people like to say is a joke.  You play to win PERIOD!  Now it's time to put your scouting team to work.

How is it the Ravens have been a top tier organization for ages now?  They draft and sign FA well.  They may not have a ton of SB trophies in the cabinet but they put together competitive teams and have winning records when healthy.

That is the level we need to get to!  Losing games to be lower in the draft order to get better players doesn't = better team or the Lions would have been better for the last 20 years!

I didn't vote cause my vote is let JS do what JS will do!

JS gets players!  Dabs plays who he gets!

We root for them to win.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 09:33:36 AM
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 08, 2024, 09:19:31 AMIf we are looking for an edge rusher, Latu, Chip Robinson, Verse and Turner should be around at 6

If we looking at  a receiver, Odunze, Nabers, Coleman and Boweres should be around , although I am not sure about Boweres as the Chargers could grab him.

Alt should be there at 6

Totally agree in not trading the farm to move up in the draft . My evidence is the Panthers and Bryce Young 

Bryce Young is an excellent example :ok:
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: sooners56 on January 08, 2024, 10:37:26 AM
I believe Williams and Maye will be elite franchise QBs, so if the Giants can get either by moving up/staying put, they need to draft them. If the QBs are all gone by 6 and a trade up was not possible, select the best WR at 6. That WR could be Nabors or Odunze. Either one should help the offense tremendously. I don't think the Giants need to invest another high pick on the Oline and I don't believe a defensive player will be rated higher than the WRs.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Ed Vette on January 08, 2024, 10:45:48 AM
Quote from: killarich on January 08, 2024, 02:23:02 AMthe Giants could have been locked into

I think we will miss out on the top 3 QBs and that is a bummer

Mayfield, Darnold and Rosen...
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:09:31 AM
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 09:12:00 AMThe Giants were second to last (behind Carolina) in "estimated wins" per the FO legacy guys (see below):

https://www.ftnfantasy.com/nfl/tools/team-total-dvoa

I could not find a precise definition of this, although I assume it's computed by a model that does exactly what it sounds like: estimates the number of expected wins you'd have if you played the exact season out many times. The Giants had 3.7 "estimated wins" but 6 real wins. In other words, we're picking lower than we probably deserve to be if we're going off the true caliber of our team. A handful of (if not most) of our wins were pretty lucky or, at least, extremely close.

To me, 6-11 makes me feel no better than 3-14 or 4-13. Some fans may disagree, and I respect that, but to me it's a terrible season either way. To not get a top three or four pick out of this year, particularly given where we are from a QB point of view, is painful.

I agree, the team's talent level doesn't match their 6-11 record.  They should be picking in the top three if talent was the decider.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: uconnjack8 on January 08, 2024, 11:10:12 AM
No other option, so here is my answer:  Lets wait for the draft season to be at least started before we start projecting who will be around and who will not.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: zephirus on January 08, 2024, 11:22:35 AM
There's still too many outstanding questions to understand the direction the Giants should take at #6.  What are the Bears doing with Justin Fields?  Who is taking over in Foxboro (if not Belichick) and what is the QB situation like after free agency? 

I've asserted for some time that it's unlikely the Giants go QB in the draft and I think the finally 5-6 games landed in a way that will only reinforce that ideology within the front office.  There's too much money tied up in Daniel Jones with no easy "out" until next year.  The Giants showed some scrap with backup qbs, realistically could have (and should have) beaten both the Jets, Bills and Rams.  We had a host of injuries.  I think Schoen and the front office will view things through the light of "lost season" moreso than "lost team".  They'll look to augment the existing team and shore up weak areas and roll the dice with Jones again. 

With the Giants at 6, I think you let the draft come to you and see what happens.  Getting additional draft capital by trading down should always be a priority, especially if you can land first round picks in subsequent years.  BPA seems the order of the day.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 11:30:15 AM
Wait are we still entertaining jones being here as the starting QB next season?????

 :boooo:  ~X(

My friend a Giants fan himself really likes Jones and want him back.

This must be some kind of Stockholm syndrome. I cannot think on any NY Sports Franchise player -- in ANY SPORT -- that had such a huge following for what should be considered poor/mediocre at best play.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Gmo11 on January 08, 2024, 11:34:10 AM
Quote from: zephirus on January 08, 2024, 11:22:35 AMThere's still too many outstanding questions to understand the direction the Giants should take at #6.  What are the Bears doing with Justin Fields?  Who is taking over in Foxboro (if not Belichick) and what is the QB situation like after free agency? 

I've asserted for some time that it's unlikely the Giants go QB in the draft and I think the finally 5-6 games landed in a way that will only reinforce that ideology within the front office.  There's too much money tied up in Daniel Jones with no easy "out" until next year.  The Giants showed some scrap with backup qbs, realistically could have (and should have) beaten both the Jets, Bills and Rams.  We had a host of injuries.  I think Schoen and the front office will view things through the light of "lost season" moreso than "lost team".  They'll look to augment the existing team and shore up weak areas and roll the dice with Jones again. 

With the Giants at 6, I think you let the draft come to you and see what happens.  Getting additional draft capital by trading down should always be a priority, especially if you can land first round picks in subsequent years.  BPA seems the order of the day.

Wouldn't the last couple weeks only fortify the belief that they need a QB?  The minute they got even semi-competent QB play the team became watchable.  Even frisky.  Imagine if they got ACTUAL competent QB play.  And there's no guarantee a rookie would provide that, but there's absolute a guarantee that Jones/Devito won't.  So I'd rather roll the dice on a top rookie prospect.  If they can't get one of the Big 3, I think whichever QB is left in Round 2 they should pull the trigger then.  Even if it's Nix or Penix or McCarthy.  I'd rather take my chances with them than tie the franchise to Jones any further than next season.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:37:38 AM
Quote from: zephirus on January 08, 2024, 11:22:35 AMThere's still too many outstanding questions to understand the direction the Giants should take at #6.  What are the Bears doing with Justin Fields?  Who is taking over in Foxboro (if not Belichick) and what is the QB situation like after free agency? 

I've asserted for some time that it's unlikely the Giants go QB in the draft and I think the finally 5-6 games landed in a way that will only reinforce that ideology within the front office.  There's too much money tied up in Daniel Jones with no easy "out" until next year.  The Giants showed some scrap with backup qbs, realistically could have (and should have) beaten both the Jets, Bills and Rams.  We had a host of injuries.  I think Schoen and the front office will view things through the light of "lost season" moreso than "lost team".  They'll look to augment the existing team and shore up weak areas and roll the dice with Jones again. 

With the Giants at 6, I think you let the draft come to you and see what happens.  Getting additional draft capital by trading down should always be a priority, especially if you can land first round picks in subsequent years.  BPA seems the order of the day.

Unless a really good QB falls to the Giants in round one or two, I can't say this is a terrible plan.   The Giants' biggest issue is a lack of talent across the board.   From what I have seen talented teams that draft a QB tend to be more successful developing them than less talented teams who draft a QB.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 11:40:16 AM
Kind of a bizarre, silly question to ask Jones. What answer is the reporter (sounded like Schwartz) expecting?


https://twitter.com/SNYGiants/status/1744388629072367680
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 11:43:08 AM
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:37:38 AMUnless a really good QB falls to the Giants in round one or two, I can't say this is a terrible plan.  The Giants' biggest issue is a lack of talent across the board.  From what I have seen talented teams that draft a QB tend to be more successful developing them than less talented teams who draft a QB.

This tired old argument again. It is just more excuses for keeping Jones and being proven right that it is really the team and jones really does not suck but needed more help.

Really like who? The only team I can think of where that is even remotely applicable is Seahawks / Russ Wilson. Meanwhile Pete Caroll nearly lost the locker room with his faith in a young Russ Wilson. I think some resent Wilson to this day for it. No one wants to wait around to develop a rookie QB when they are stacked.

And please do not bring up the likes of Mahomes and the Chiefs and Alex Smith. They were already a solid playoff team that needed something to get over the hump. The Giants and not that , not even close.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 11:40:16 AMKind of a bizarre, silly question to ask Jones. What answer is the reporter (sounded like Schwartz) expecting?


The quality of the Giants' beat writers has diminished over the years.  I am not sure if that's a function of the team being perennial losers or if the quality of sports reporters has diminished.

Totally agree; this is a really dumb question.  They might as well just invite fans in to ask questions if that's the sort of question that will be asked.  Hell, I think the fans here could ask superior questions to that one.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:48:23 AM
Quote from: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 11:43:08 AMThis tired old argument again. It is just more excuses for keeping Jones and being proven right that it is really the team and jones really does not suck but needed more help.

Really like who? The only team I can think of where that is even remotely applicable is Seahawks / Russ Wilson. Meanwhile Pete Caroll nearly lost the locker room with his faith in a young Russ Wilson. I think some resent Wilson to this day for it. No one wants to wait around to develop a rookie QB when they are stacked.

And please do not bring up the likes of Mahomes and the Chiefs and Alex Smith. They were already a solid playoff team that needed something to get over the hump. The Giants and not that , not even close.

 :hmm:

Brock Purdy
Jalen Hurts
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o7qDSOvfaCO9b3MlO/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47rjviw4x0vgw57ubw6jxep2u30iif0asqitxiqjiv&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: londonblue on January 08, 2024, 11:49:57 AM
On talent I think we are better than that expected win projection suggests outside our OL. We played better late season than earlier in the year. We got more out of our QB position. We took more shots downfield. The D forced turnovers. We were in every game in December/January.

I do agree that we have far too few elite playmakers on both sides of the ball to contend but our 'average starter' and 'primary back-up' talent is generally not terrible, again parking the OL.

We are 15-18-1 in the Schoen/Daboll era. I think that is about who and what we are, a below average but somewhat competitive team who get manhandled by elite teams.

Obviously the blowouts by the Cowboys highlight how far beyond QB our problems go but this is true of at least half the NFL. Given our closeness to our team we tend to lose a bit of perspective. There are things to build on.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 11:55:09 AM
Quote:hmm:

Brock Purdy
Jalen Hurts
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen


So the Gaints are a SB team now or we should develop one first and then pick a QB?

People just love pulling Brock Purdy out their but every time.

Let's talk about the 9ers and Brock Purdy. This was a Super Bowl team that went to Super bowl with Jimmy G. They used up 2 #1s to get a Tray Lance. He beat out all those other guys to get the spot.

Jones got to play here a scholarship

Jalen Hurts again same thing. He replaced a QB that had MVP votes to his credit and was a team that won a SB with Nick Foles.

Lamar Jackson and Allen? Really? They got developed? They don't get any credit for being superstar athletes themselves?
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:59:36 AM
Quote from: londonblue on January 08, 2024, 11:49:57 AMOn talent I think we are better than that expected win projection suggests outside our OL. We played better late season than earlier in the year. We got more out of our QB position. We took more shots downfield. The D forced turnovers. We were in every game in December/January.

I do agree that we have far too few elite playmakers on both sides of the ball to contend but our 'average starter' and 'primary back-up' talent is generally not terrible, again parking the OL.

We are 15-18-1 in the Schoen/Daboll era. I think that is about who and what we are, a below average but somewhat competitive team who get manhandled by elite teams.

Obviously the blowouts by the Cowboys highlight how far beyond QB our problems go but this is true of at least half the NFL. Given our closeness to our team we tend to lose a bit of perspective. There are things to build on.

Mike Lombardi developed the concept of blue-chip and red-chip players

Definition of a blue-chip player
» Player demonstrates rare abilities and can create mismatches that have an obvious impact on the game
» Is a premier player in the league and a weapon on the field
» Combines competitiveness and skill to have a consistent championship-level performance
» Rates in the top five at his position in the league

Definition of a red-chip player
» Player has abilities that can create mismatches vs. most opponents in the league
» Is a featured player on the team and has impact on the outcome of the game
» Player can't be taken out of the game in one-on-one matchup
» Has a consistent level of performance each week
» Plays at a championship-level performance
» Rates in the top 10 at his position in the league


Now I found an old article from 2011 that listed the number of blue and red chip players each team had.  So for reference the best teams in 2011 (Mike counted HCs in the list)

Steelers-  BC- 8 RC- 4
Packers-  BC- 7 RC- 5

Ranked 10th

Colts-  BC- 4  RC- 1
This is the same count as the 11th ranked Vikings


So where do the Giants sit?

Blue-Chip

Dex

Red-Chip

Thomas, maybe KT

Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: zephirus on January 08, 2024, 12:25:36 PM
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 08, 2024, 11:34:10 AMWouldn't the last couple weeks only fortify the belief that they need a QB?  The minute they got even semi-competent QB play the team became watchable.  Even frisky.  Imagine if they got ACTUAL competent QB play.  And there's no guarantee a rookie would provide that, but there's absolute a guarantee that Jones/Devito won't.  So I'd rather roll the dice on a top rookie prospect.  If they can't get one of the Big 3, I think whichever QB is left in Round 2 they should pull the trigger then.  Even if it's Nix or Penix or McCarthy.  I'd rather take my chances with them than tie the franchise to Jones any further than next season.

If Daniel Jones weren't carrying massive cap implications I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But the reality is that he's on the team next year.  Drafting a QB and having a $40m a year backup is probably the fastest way for Schoen to get a pink-slip and be shown the door.  I also simply disagree that there's a huge disparity in play between Jones and Taylor.  I absolutely think any game the Giants won with DeVito or Taylor could have been won with Jones. 

I don't like the prospect of the Giants rolling into next season with Jones more than many here, but it's a reality that we need to accept because that's how the NFL is designed.  The Giants made a big mistake extending him, and drafting another QB in the first doesn't materially help the team, it probably hamstrings it by expending valuable draft capital, creating a QB controversy, and tying up cap space.

People think that going into next season with Jones as starter is like "doubling down" on idiocy.  It's not.  It's probably the best option we have in order to field a competitive team in the near future without hamstringing our cap and introducing more volatile change with wholesale personnel changes. I'm not espousing "patience" with Jones, I'm espousing "prudence" with regards to team culture and stability.  The prudent thing to do is draft BPA, see how things fall, and show Jones the door next off-season when that action doesn't completely decimate our cap situation, which for those of you with short memories, is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 12:36:54 PM
Quote from: zephirus on January 08, 2024, 12:25:36 PMIf Daniel Jones weren't carrying massive cap implications I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But the reality is that he's on the team next year.  Drafting a QB and having a $40m a year backup is probably the fastest way for Schoen to get a pink-slip and be shown the door.  I also simply disagree that there's a huge disparity in play between Jones and Taylor.  I absolutely think any game the Giants won with DeVito or Taylor could have been won with Jones. 

I don't like the prospect of the Giants rolling into next season with Jones more than many here, but it's a reality that we need to accept because that's how the NFL is designed.  The Giants made a big mistake extending him, and drafting another QB in the first doesn't materially help the team, it probably hamstrings it by expending valuable draft capital, creating a QB controversy, and tying up cap space.

People think that going into next season with Jones as starter is like "doubling down" on idiocy.  It's not.  It's probably the best option we have in order to field a competitive team in the near future without hamstringing our cap and introducing more volatile change with wholesale personnel changes. I'm not espousing "patience" with Jones, I'm espousing "prudence" with regards to team culture and stability.  The prudent thing to do is draft BPA, see how things fall, and show Jones the door next off-season when that action doesn't completely decimate our cap situation, which for those of you with short memories, is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.

We'll be saying the same things 2-3 seasons from now. We had options last season. Derrick Carr was available .... yeay yeah he sucks right 4x pro bowl , 25 Tds this year . You had Baker playing well and available.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 12:40:48 PM
Jones is a sunk cost at this point. There is nothing we can do about him other than eat the $47mm hit next season and then bail out after that and move on. That reality should not influence whether or not we draft a QB. The fact that we can't move Jones proves he has no value and that we need to go in another direction at this position ASAP.

And just because Jones is on the team at that exorbitant cap hit doesn't mean he has to play all year. The money is gone either way. That shouldn't (and won't) preclude them from making the correct decisions from here. The same way a good poker player doesn't remain in a hand he knows he's beat in just because he already put money into the pot.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 12:40:55 PM
What are the options anyway? WHo will be starting QB in camp next season Devito? Or will Jones be ready by then?
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Gmo11 on January 08, 2024, 12:41:25 PM
Quote from: zephirus on January 08, 2024, 12:25:36 PMIf Daniel Jones weren't carrying massive cap implications I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But the reality is that he's on the team next year.  Drafting a QB and having a $40m a year backup is probably the fastest way for Schoen to get a pink-slip and be shown the door.  I also simply disagree that there's a huge disparity in play between Jones and Taylor.  I absolutely think any game the Giants won with DeVito or Taylor could have been won with Jones. 

I don't like the prospect of the Giants rolling into next season with Jones more than many here, but it's a reality that we need to accept because that's how the NFL is designed.  The Giants made a big mistake extending him, and drafting another QB in the first doesn't materially help the team, it probably hamstrings it by expending valuable draft capital, creating a QB controversy, and tying up cap space.

People think that going into next season with Jones as starter is like "doubling down" on idiocy.  It's not.  It's probably the best option we have in order to field a competitive team in the near future without hamstringing our cap and introducing more volatile change with wholesale personnel changes. I'm not espousing "patience" with Jones, I'm espousing "prudence" with regards to team culture and stability.  The prudent thing to do is draft BPA, see how things fall, and show Jones the door next off-season when that action doesn't completely decimate our cap situation, which for those of you with short memories, is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.

I get what you're saying about the 40 million but you can get away with a 40 million dollar backup if your starter is on a rookie deal. And it would only be for one season.  It's an expiring contract after next season. 

Maybe Jones could have won those games but not if he was going to play the way he did to start the season where he stubbornly refused to throw more than 5 yards down the field.  And it wasn't the OL because Taylor and even Devito found ways to throw downfield from time to time.  Jones didn't.

Jones' is going to be on the roster next year we can all agree on that.  There's no way to get rid of him.  So whether the Giants draft a QB at 6 or a DE that guy is going to be paid the same money so it doesn't change the finances for next season. 

I would certainly not want to trade a million picks to move up to like #1 for Caleb Williams because the team isn't good enough for that, but to move from 6 to 5 so the Chargers don't sell Jayden Daniels out from under them?  I might be willing to do that.  If QBs go 1-2-3 then I think they go BPA and hope that one of Penix/Nix/McCarthy are around in Round 2 and take one of them there. 
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 12:42:55 PM
Quote from: Fletch on January 08, 2024, 12:40:55 PMWhat are the options anyway? WHo will be starting QB in camp next season Devito? Or will Jones be ready by then?

Neither. They'll either bring back Tyrod or some other cheap vet (assuming they don't draft a rookie they're comfortable playing in week one).

No way DeVito is our week one starter. Zero chance of that. Better chance he's not even a Giant than that he's our starter in week one or playing with the ones in camp.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 12:49:51 PM
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 12:40:48 PMJones is a sunk cost at this point. There is nothing we can do about him other than eat the $47mm hit next season and then bail out after that and move on. That reality should not influence whether or not we draft a QB. The fact that we can't move Jones proves he has no value and that we need to go in another direction at this position ASAP.

And just because Jones is on the team at that exorbitant cap hit doesn't mean he has to play all year. The money is gone either way. That shouldn't (and won't) preclude them from making the correct decisions from here. The same way a good poker player doesn't remain in a hand he knows he's beat in just because he already put money into the pot.
Schoen said they were addressing the Qb position this offseason this morning.
Title: Re: I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position
Post by: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 01:12:59 PM
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 12:49:51 PMSchoen said they were addressing the Qb position this offseason this morning.

Yup. And he said that in his last press conference.

One way or another, there will be at least one new face in this QB room next year.