Big Blue Huddle

https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/01/15/the-truth-behind-brian-daboll-wink-martindale-mike-kafka-and-the-giants-drama/ (https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/01/15/the-truth-behind-brian-daboll-wink-martindale-mike-kafka-and-the-giants-drama/)

Here's an exert from the article
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GD59OtWXIAAgTsf?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GD55iPgXMAEvZxW?format=png&name=small)

Can someone post the full article. I cannot access the NYDN news in Europe.

So is this a Par Leonard clickbait article or the truth?

If it's true, it's not good.

If it's true, it's definitely not good. I have no idea if it's true or exactly true though. Much of the time you only get partially true versions with this stuff, or you read things that are out of context etc.

Still, none of it sounds great. Guy seems like a hothead who speaks to other adults in ways that he shouldn't.

This is more than concerning

Meanwhile Belichick, Vrabel, Caroll, Harbaugh are all out there a phone call away

very concerning.

I had previously posted the Giants' side of the story via Giants Insider.  This appears to be Wink's side of the story, as there was nothing in the story that put Wink in a negative light (it sure puts Daboll in a damning light).


It's behind a weak paywall.  If you don't subscribe click the link and when the story pops up hit the stop loading button on your browser, that should stop the paywall from appearing and you can read the full article (as I did)


https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/01/15/the-truth-behind-brian-daboll-wink-martindale-mike-kafka-and-the-giants-drama/

Some of the claims in the article

-  That Joe Schoen spent about four games this season listening on the headsets because of complaints about Daboll's finger pointing during games. 

Quote"You're gonna lose this game just like you lost us the Jets game," Daboll griped on the headset, according to numerous sources in the building.

Daboll was blaming the defense for the Giants' infamous 13-10 overtime loss to the Jets on Oct. 29, in which the offense had thrown for -9 yards and Daboll's late-game mismanagement had opened the door to a full-scale, team-wide meltdown.

Daboll's divisive finger-pointing wasn't out of the ordinary. That's one of the reasons why, sources say, Giants GM Joe Schoen had begun listening in on the coaches' headsets on game days that week in Washington — although the GM also was taking a step that both the Texans' Nick Caserio and the Cowboys' Will McClay have done to gain a better understanding of the game day operation.

- coaches complained about Daboll's lack of composure

-  Supposedly things are so bad at the Giants one staffer advised and assistant coach "not to come here"

-Daboll took playcalling away from Kafka multiple times, according to sources, and gave it back each time. He gave it to QB coach Shea Tierney for the second half at Dallas in Week 10, per sources.

QuoteDaboll receives advice on his headset in those moments from an analytics and game management team. But one source called that collaboration a "broken process," saying it's not thorough or advanced. And regardless of what is discussed during the week, Daboll's game day decisions become up-for-grabs, impulse calls without guardrails.

"It's like, 'Wait, what did we have that meeting for?" the source said. "There's a lot of inconsistency or doing the direct opposite of what we had talked about. The rest of the league is too far ahead, and you see it affecting the results of games."

QuoteWhen the offense struggled to start camp, Daboll allowed a perception to grow that he had tipped off the defense to play calls in order to create a challenge for Jones.

But the reality, according to sources, was that Martindale's pressure packages were giving the offense fits. So Daboll told Martindale he was putting a limit on his blitzes for the rest of camp.

That set the tone for an offense vs. defense coaching culture that did not go in the offense's favor, especially this season.

More at the link (use the trick I mentioned)

Sounds like the Giants need a new coach! I'd be ok with starting over at GM and coach. Daboll is a bad leader and Schoen can't draft

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 15, 2024, 02:08:51 PMCan someone post the full article. I cannot access the NYDN news in Europe.

Yes full article please.

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 15, 2024, 02:41:51 PMYes full article please.

I sent you the article.  If you click the link, you need to hit the stop button right after the article appears.  Otherwise, the paywall will pop up to block you.  ;)

Anyone struggling to get it, PM me

Truth and Leonard are strangers to each other but there are enough different perspectives out there for us to conclude Daboll has to change and Schoen has to help him change...or eventually fire him.

Bad vibes here. Some of it (Daboll's temper) was obvious. Adversity is known to reveal character. He looked so angry at his pressers; his head was ready to explode.

Players have to have "controlled rage" but stay within team boundaries. Is this a fatal flaw with Daboll?

Quote from: londonblue on January 15, 2024, 02:55:21 PMTruth and Leonard are strangers to each other but there are enough different perspectives out there for us to conclude Daboll has to change and Schoen has to help him change...or eventually fire him.

As I mentioned, considering there was nothing unflattering about Wink, this was Wink's side of the story.  We had Daboll's/the Giant's side with the Giant's insider podcast report.  I think Raanan was just doing more traditional reporting using his own sources.


I agree that Daboll needs to re-evaluate and change the way he does things (ala Coughlin), or it will not end well for him or for the team.  You can't expect to manage others if you can't manage yourself.

True. False. Or something in the middle? Either way, it just adds more heat to the hot seat Daboll will be occupying next season.

If Daboll is really pointing fingers for losses on the radio headset during games, he is not the right guy for the job.

That kind of stuff is about as bad as you can do as a leader.  Again, if.

Wow! This reads like a true account, coming from many leaks inside the building - and not just Wink. There is a Daboll quote, horrible if true, that is too specific to be made up. It's also in line with a bunch of other accounts with the same story - Daboll's lack of emotional maturity and tendancy to lash out in tight moments. 

Now that all this toothpaste is out of the tube, how does Daboll come back from this? Does he make some private apologies and vow to do better?  What he's doing is simply not sustainable going forward. 

I also wonder of the Giants know they have a problem and are leaking this stuff around, greasing the skids for Daboll's exit. 

If Daboll was passing the buck...geeze.  what's next? Anger management? This is red meat for the scribes if there's a meal there. Hot seat stuff.

Fifteen years ago I took an Exec Development course at Columbia focused around Emotional Intelligence in a diverse (global business) and high pressure environment.

The first thing we learnt is that the foundation stone for EI is emotional self-control. Daboll does not appear to have any. It can be developed and there are professional coaches, tools and techniques to help. Schoen should be exploring them all with Daboll.

Unfortunately middle aged shouty white guys generally (there are always exceptions) do not respond well to soft skills coaching in my experience but we have to try.

Quote from: Gman329 on January 15, 2024, 03:13:58 PMWow! This reads like a true account, coming from many leaks inside the building - and not just Wink. There is a Daboll quote, horrible if true, that is too specific to be made up. It's also in line with a bunch of other accounts with the same story - Daboll's lack of emotional maturity and tendancy to lash out in tight moments. 

Now that all this toothpaste is out of the tube, how does Daboll come back from this? Does he make some private apologies and vow to do better?  What he's doing is simply not sustainable going forward. 

I also wonder of the Giants know they have a problem and are leaking this stuff around, greasing the skids for Daboll's exit. 

With no fore knowledge of any of this I had suggested Daboll be fired and Wink promoted to HC weeks ago.

That would have preserved continuity and changed the dynamic.  Its still possible to do it.

Schoen and Mara are weaklings if they do nothing.  another season of futility

Quote from: Gman329 on January 15, 2024, 03:13:58 PMWow! This reads like a true account, coming from many leaks inside the building - and not just Wink. There is a Daboll quote, horrible if true, that is too specific to be made up. It's also in line with a bunch of other accounts with the same story - Daboll's lack of emotional maturity and tendancy to lash out in tight moments. 

Now that all this toothpaste is out of the tube, how does Daboll come back from this? Does he make some private apologies and vow to do better?  What he's doing is simply not sustainable going forward. 

I also wonder of the Giants know they have a problem and are leaking this stuff around, greasing the skids for Daboll's exit. 

When seeking a true accounting when it comes to feuds, there is almost always fault from both sides (not equal fault, but usually both sides contributed).  So when you get an article like this which is 100% negative of Daboll and 0% critical of Wink, you have to think PL's sources were in Wink's camp, so to speak.

These are not the headlines Daboll or the Giants need


https://x.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1746996656191463876?s=20

Could this blow up and cause Daboll to be fired in a few weeks?

If the owners decide this is unwanted press and push Schoen to fire his guy it is not a bad year to cut and run IMO as there are more veteran recent/past HC guys on the market than are likely to get hired.

Two years of eg Pete Carroll to stabilise the organisation, reset the culture and transform perception of the working environment at the stroke of a pen might suddenly seem quite appealing to Messrs Mara and Tisch. Bill would not have quite the same effect  :P

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 15, 2024, 03:39:04 PMWhen seeking a true accounting when it comes to feuds, there is almost always fault from both sides (not equal fault, but usually both sides contributed).  So when you get an article like this which is 100% negative of Daboll and 0% critical of Wink, you have to think PL's sources were in Wink's camp, so to speak.

But at this point, anything Wink did is irrelivant.  I don't care what he did. He's gone.  We're talking strictly about Daboll now and if these things are true - and it's been written in too many places for me to believe otherwise and now this article contains that quote about the D losing the Washington game (reported by more than one person in the building) - this is a huge problem....and it doesn't sound like something Daboll can just turn off. It sounds to me like a fatal flaw in a Head Coach. 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 15, 2024, 03:52:52 PMCould this blow up and cause Daboll to be fired in a few weeks?

Absolutely.  By the end of this week, in fact.

The brass is probably well aware unless they are willfully blind. It sounds too detailed to be dismissed.

Okay..let's say the press runs with this all playoffs..fire him? Do the Giants ever act so decisively?

Then..whose your guy? They just hired an OL coach. :doh: 

 ~X( Daboll

This article almost posts the entire article (in a long string of quotes)

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/lists/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-has-no-composure-assistants-warned-to-stay-away/?taid=65a58ff1373ad700010d9eba&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 15, 2024, 03:52:52 PMCould this blow up and cause Daboll to be fired in a few weeks?

Doubtful but possible with 6-11 record
Mara is a pantywaist though

Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 15, 2024, 03:52:52 PMCould this blow up and cause Daboll to be fired in a few weeks?

Unless more reporters get behind this, I don't think so.  I was looking at the responses to the Dov Kleiman report on Twitter.  It was 100% pro-Giants and anti-Pat Leonard.

I was on the record preferring Flores to Daboll. And I'm still on that record.

"These are the times that try mens souls" Thomas Paine

I just want to talk football not Baldy's character flaws :-??

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 15, 2024, 04:12:43 PMUnless more reporters get behind this, I don't think so.  I was looking at the responses to the Dov Kleiman report on Twitter.  It was 100% pro-Giants and anti-Pat Leonard.

I am not sure what to believe at this point.  I am sure either side is putting out some truths, just not the complete story.

For example,  if we assume Daboll made the comment about the D losing a game.  Was the comment of the blue?  Or did Wink say something the provoked Daboll? 

It's obvious their union was not a harmonious one, but to what extent it affected the team and how other coaches feel is anyone's guess.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 15, 2024, 03:52:52 PMCould this blow up and cause Daboll to be fired in a few weeks?

I mused this on another thread earlier this week.

Here's the complete article, best to read the whole thing before commenting.

nydailynews.com
The truth behind Brian Daboll, Wink Martindale, Mike Kafka and the Giants' drama
Pat Leonard
11–13 minutes

On Nov. 19 at Washington's FedEx Field in Landover, Md. the 2-8 Giants led the Commanders, 24-12, late in the fourth quarter.

Wink Martindale's defense had forced four turnovers. Thomas McGaughey's special teams unit had forced another. And Mike Kafka's offense, with Tommy DeVito at quarterback, had scored two of its three touchdowns on short fields off those takeaways.

But now Washington's offense was driving, aided by a Kayvon Thibodeaux roughing the passer penalty outside the red zone. And that's when Brian Daboll started playing the blame game on Martindale and the defensive staff:

"You're gonna lose this game just like you lost us the Jets game," Daboll griped on the headset, according to numerous sources in the building.

Daboll was blaming the defense for the Giants' infamous 13-10 overtime loss to the Jets on Oct. 29, in which the offense had thrown for -9 yards and Daboll's late-game mismanagement had opened the door to a full-scale, team-wide meltdown.

Daboll's divisive finger-pointing wasn't out of the ordinary. That's one of the reasons why, sources say, Giants GM Joe Schoen had begun listening in on the coaches' headsets on game days that week in Washington — although the GM also was taking a step that both the Texans' Nick Caserio and the Cowboys' Will McClay have done to gain a better understanding of the game day operation.

Daboll's sideline behavior was destructive, in many coaches' opinions. His input was never proactive, always reactionary. And his outrage was rarely accompanied by a suggested solution.

"He has no composure," one team source said.

America saw it first-hand on Sunday Night Football Oct. 15 in Buffalo. NBC sideline reporter Melissa Stark said a "very frustrated" Daboll couldn't answer questions at halftime because, he admitted: "My head is not in this. I cannot focus on anything right now."

Now Schoen was monitoring the dynamic at Washington after being alerted by several meaningful parties that Daboll's behavior and the sideline dynamic were not constructive.

Schoen would stay on the headsets for four games, sources say – against the Commanders, Patriots, Packers and Saints – before stepping back offline for the final three.

The story of the Giants' 2023 undoing isn't about a personal feud between Daboll and Martindale and the past, though. It's about bad football and a flawed process that still exists inside the Giants' walls.

It's about an organization with enough problems that one Giants staffer recently advised an NFL assistant calling about a vacancy:

"Do not come here."
'OFF THE WAVE'

Daboll set an adversarial tone in August when he stared down McGaughey, his special teams coordinator, on the sideline after a Lions punt return touchdown. That public showing-up wasn't appreciated, but Daboll's rage was nothing new.

He'd eviscerated plenty of people in 2022, like former running backs coach DeAndre Smith, who left for the Colts last offseason. Daboll also lit into Daniel Jones twice in two years, throwing a tablet in disgust next to his quarterback after Jones' Week 4 pick-six against the Seahawks.

Kafka, the Giants' young offensive coordinator, however, has received the brunt of Daboll's fury, according to numerous team sources. He is "constantly second-guessed," a source said.

Daboll, who got the Giants job due to his work with Josh Allen's Bills offense, ran a consistently hot temperature as his offense cratered beginning with a 40-0 Week 1 loss to the Cowboys. And he often took it out on his OC.

"He would make [Kafka] run the ball, and then if he called a run [Daboll] didn't like it, he would motherf–k him," a source said.

The Giants started 1-5 with only one offensive TD total in their first five losses. Poor O-line personnel and an annual injury problem under this athletic training staff didn't help. They went three straight games without an offensive TD against Seattle, Miami and Buffalo in Weeks 4-6.

The good fortune of last season's playoff run had worn off quickly.

"Last season it was like we were riding a wave," one player said as the season spiraled. "And now, we're off the wave."

Daboll took playcalling away from Kafka multiple times, according to sources, and gave it back each time. He gave it to QB coach Shea Tierney for the second half at Dallas in Week 10, per sources.

Daboll's "unpredictability," one source said, was his defining trait. There was no pattern, rhyme or reason to his changes from others' perspectives.

Daboll also took over Kafka's offensive meetings in Week 7 ahead of a home game against Washington, as the Daily News first reported. And he didn't give complete control back to Kafka until Week 11, after the offense had averaged 11.75 points during that 1-3 stretch.

With Kafka back at the reins, the Giants scored 24 or more points in five of their final seven games. But Daboll's impulsive nature also reared its head in how he mismanaged game situations in losses.

His game management in last year's divisional round in Philadelphia – going for a 4th and 8 on the Eagles' 40-yard line while trailing 7-0 – sent a message of panic to the team and ended the 38-7 loss in the first quarter.

Then poor situational football cost the Giants their two worst losses: In Week 6 at Buffalo, when Tyrod Taylor received a play call with a run check at the goal line before halftime; and in Week 8 against the Jets, when Daboll sent an injured Graham Gano out to miss a field goal when one yard would have ended the game.

The defense had breakdowns at the end of those defeats, too, but shining blame on those miscues when the offense wasn't functioning and the end-game decisions were backfiring came off as a lack of accountability to some on staff.

Daboll receives advice on his headset in those moments from an analytics and game management team. But one source called that collaboration a "broken process," saying it's not thorough or advanced. And regardless of what is discussed during the week, Daboll's game day decisions become up-for-grabs, impulse calls without guardrails.

"It's like, 'Wait, what did we have that meeting for?" the source said. "There's a lot of inconsistency or doing the direct opposite of what we had talked about. The rest of the league is too far ahead, and you see it affecting the results of games."

In a Week 10 blowout at Dallas, the Giants' offense had 27 yards and one first down in the first half. The defense caved and allowed 640 yards total. And Daboll was ripping the defense so frantically and constantly after positive Cowboys plays that it was interfering with Martindale's play-calling process, sources said.

Several sources said Martindale asked Daboll to stop so he could get the next play in. The next week, Schoen was on the headsets to monitor the situation for himself.

"You're living on the edge every week," a source said of working for Daboll. "It makes it tough to do your job."
WHERE IT WENT WRONG WITH WINK

There were signs from the first day of last year's training camp that the Daboll-Martindale dynamic would not work.

When the offense struggled to start camp, Daboll allowed a perception to grow that he had tipped off the defense to play calls in order to create a challenge for Jones.

But the reality, according to sources, was that Martindale's pressure packages were giving the offense fits. So Daboll told Martindale he was putting a limit on his blitzes for the rest of camp.

That set the tone for an offense vs. defense coaching culture that did not go in the offense's favor, especially this season.

The defense finished with more takeaways (31) than the offense had touchdowns (25) and scored three TDs on its own. The offense scored more than 14 points only once in the Giants' first nine games.

The weight of the offense's struggles became too much for the defense during those blowout losses to the Raiders and Cowboys, the unit's worst two games of the year.

"We know we have to be perfect because of the offense right now," a defensive starter said after the Dallas game. "It's hard."

The handling of safety Xavier McKinney's public criticism of the coaching staff after the Week 9 loss to the Raiders was a good window into the Daboll-Martindale rift.

Daboll tried to keep the fallout in-house and did not appreciate that Martindale put McKinney on blast publicly a few days later. But some viewed Daboll's lack of public consequences for McKinney – and the subsequent leak of his displeasure with Martindale – as the head coach choosing a player over his defensive coordinator.

The outcome was that McKinney, after being held accountable, played his best football in the second half of the season.

But FOX sideline reporter Tom Rinaldi noted an extended, out-of-the-ordinary conversation between Daboll and Martindale on the sideline in Week 10 at Dallas. Then Daboll had McKinney break the team down in the winning Week 11 locker room at Washington.

That all built up to FOX's Jay Glazer reporting in Week 12 before a win over the Patriots that Daboll and Martindale were "in a bad place."

No one viewed Daboll giving Martindale the game ball after that 10-7 win over the Patriots as genuine. It was seen as a transparent, staged, public relations move. The players, however, did not mutiny. Daboll had cultivated support in the locker room.

Players stood by him publicly. One player said Daboll's 2022 playoff berth and win still carried weight during this down time. Players also responded to a lighter practice schedule from training camp to the team's walkthrough-filled final three weeks of the season.

Plenty of people in the building, including players, coaches and executives, said Daboll bought meaningful capital with last year's success. But that now the pressure should turn up in Year Three because of how badly Year Two went.

Martindale had a lot of support, as well. Captain and middle linebacker Bobby Okereke stumped the loudest, telling the News in November that losing Martindale would be "devastating," a sentiment echoed by several players.

Some simply grew tired of hearing about the dueling coach camps.

"Too many egos," one player said. "Too many egos."

Ultimately, the Giants fired Martindale's right-hand man, outside linebackers coach Drew Wilkins, and his brother Kevin on Black Monday without informing the defensive coordinator.

All that did was expedite Martindale's plan to escape what had become an untenable, unhealthy, losing situation. Martindale blew up at Daboll, according to sources.

"Go f–k yourself," he told Daboll, who is no stranger to that kind of language. And then Martindale left the building and the team. The Daily News first reported he was resigning.

The official terms of Martindale's resignation freed him to pursue a head coach or defensive coordinator position with any other team. He gave back his $3.25 million salary for the one year remaining on his Giants contract in return, sources said.

That was a high price to pay, but Martindale clearly determined his freedom and the Wilkins' reputations were worth it.

The facts, after all, show that the Giants didn't get rid of any problems here. They lost a respected coordinator because they couldn't get their own house in order.

When Dabs was the OC at Alabama and they were in the national championship I remember Nick Saban absolutely humiliate him on the sideline when a play blew up in their face. Come to think of it both of his mentors Belichek and Saban have a history of treating their assistants like dirt when things are going well. Unlike Saban and Belichek Dabs doesn't have the street cred to get away with it. If he has any emotional maturity he'll dial it back a couple of notches but I'll be honest there were a series of stupid decisions by Wink and Kafka that would have merited an ass chewing by even the most mild mannered head coach.

Well damn. At this point, it doesn't matter if none, some, or all of it is true. Daboll's gonna get asked the questions. Schoen's gonna get asked the questions.

Only good thing is that it's coming out after the season.

Stay tuned  :'(

Hopefully schoen and Mara investigate this now and make a decision one way or the other and don't let this drag thru the offseason. Enough smoke out there one way or another to not ignore at this point.

Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
Just finished the pod but some thoughts on new Brian Daboll details

-Taking away playcalling from Mike Kafka multiple times is xxxxxxxx and makes it impossible to do his job confidently if he feels like a bad play takes away his job at the drop of a dime
-If Daboll truly didn't want Kafka calling plays, then sit down and make a calculated decision and don't turn back
-I don't mind Brian Daboll taking over offensive meetings, its his offense and he's the head coach
-Mike Kafka being back for 2024 not set in stone yet
-Now have details on worst of Wink headset stuff. Daboll HAS HAS HAS to chill the xxxx out because it chased off a good coach. You can't treat everyone the same way. Just the way it is now.
-Wink acted like a diva in this and made his decision that he was gone. Worked in his interests and not the full teams with how he handled media & McKinney.
-complaints about 2022 training camp were weak. We said in the moment that Wink should dial back his blitzes in practice. Made it impossible for the offense to install their offense. Details of the issues starting there make Wink look weak and not team oriented
-saying McKinney played better due to Wink's dressing down is wildly speculative

Overall, I think Mike Kafka is the one who should have the beef with Daboll. Daboll unnecessarily fucked with his job. Brian Daboll should have done more to prevent Wink fallout but Wink decided he was gone and that is way weaker to me than dumb comments from Daboll about blowing games. Brian Daboll has to evaluate how and get some composure or he'll end up gone eventually for extremely avoidable reasons.
5:03 PM · Jan 15, 2024
·
83.4K
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Schoen was the fly on the wall and Daboll is still here.
If all these accusations are true and not one sided, why would he support Daboll?

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 15, 2024, 08:05:46 PMSchoen was the fly on the wall and Daboll is still here.
If all these accusations are true and not one sided, why would he support Daboll?

Yeah I think Daboll is getting railroaded.

Regardless of what exactly was said and when, we know for sure Wink and Daboll outright hated each other.  And that's not a good look for the Giants.  Disagreements happen.  Even heated disagreements.  But this reached well above that if it got to the point that Wink just up and quit his job. 

I like Daboll, he seemed to have done a great job last season winning all those games with this garbage squad, but this season was a big step back.  So he has plenty to learn from and I hope that he does.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 15, 2024, 08:18:12 PMYeah I think Daboll is getting railroaded.

If it's all true, it's disturbing. There's a degree of professionalism that's expected in this leadership position. There's a difference from being a strong minded, results oriented HC, that clearly establishes expectations from one that demotivates and assigns blame to deflect on his own inadequacies. Giving a personality like that another chance is career suicide for Schoen.

How credible is Leonard as a journalist? 

Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 15, 2024, 08:18:12 PMYeah I think Daboll is getting railroaded.

Sorry, but if he is getting railroaded, he is the engineer driving the train.

My gut feeling was Wink was the best coach we had on the team and this was a sign of further dysfunction.  This further reinforces that.  Giants won't be good again in my lifetime and I'm not even that old.  It's just so bad. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 15, 2024, 08:05:46 PMSchoen was the fly on the wall and Daboll is still here.
If all these accusations are true and not one sided, why would he support Daboll?

Who says the support is coming from Schoen? Mara probably doesn't want to fire a guy after just 2 years again.

If all of these things are actually true, though, fire everybody and start over. It's not as if there's a lot here to salvage.

I'm sure Mara isn't happy at all about the public spectacle with Wink and all the press that has followed, but I'd be surprised -- shocked actually -- if Daboll gets let go in this offseason over this.

No doubt he'll be under considerable pressure next season though, and even if he was railroaded a bit, none of this is helpful to him after a 6-11 year.

Schoen and Daboll are tied at the hip.

The problem, going back many years, and it was also the case in the 1970s when Wellington Mara ran the show, is that the franchise is too cavalier, and dumb, in its major hiring decisions. These are the people who hired Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, and Joe Judge, to the most important positions on the team. Judge and Daboll were both hired because John Mara gets his recommendations from Bill Belichik, who has a horrible coaching tree and doesn't have the Giants' best interests at heart. Two years ago they decided that the Bills, a decent team that still hasn't won anything, was the team to emulate. There is a deep rot in the Giants' franchise and I don't even think Daboll is the main problem right now.   

Quote from: AYM on January 16, 2024, 07:27:07 AMWho says the support is coming from Schoen? Mara probably doesn't want to fire a guy after just 2 years again.

If all of these things are actually true, though, fire everybody and start over. It's not as if there's a lot here to salvage.

When it comes to players we have a good core
Ownership- not good
Coaching- not the best
GM- lots of wood to chop

as long as they dont bring in a soft DC, and Jones has a short leash we should be ok

Very concerning situation

If this article is true..... than there are serious problems with Daboll. that is not the sign of a leader...
he thoughts of what was happening  might have been genuine ...but to be discussed in a different time and place for sure....and in a different tone and manner.
not good for future and Shoene needs to be honest with himself and address this issue immediately.

well Schoen brought the guy in
he must then admit his poor judgement

there is an old saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Maybe Daboll's HC status went to his head. He just could not handle
his powers gracefully

If true, it shows that Daboll like his QB Daniel Jones, cracks under pressure. Bringing Down all around them.

Interesting though how the Franchise narrative painted a completely different picture in their indirect way. Let's see how Schoen handles his next press conference.

What I find interesting is that neither side's version of events conflict with the other.   It's almost like a late Festivus with the airing of the greviences. 

I can't help but NYG asked for this scathing article by unloading on Wink like they did.   If NYG was smart they wouldn't have gone after Wink.  They should have just let the matter die.  Instead they decided to take one last swipe at Wink and this unfortunate article was the natural and expected consequence.

Maybe this was said already, if so , sorry for the redundancy.

I remember there was an issue with Tom Coughlin and I believe Mara sat him down and told him that he had to change, which he did and became in my opinion, aHOF coach.

Hopefully Mara will do the same with Daboll and the results will change .
 

Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 16, 2024, 10:32:31 AMMaybe this was said already, if so , sorry for the redundancy.

I remember there was an issue with Tom Coughlin and I believe Mara sat him down and told him that he had to change, which he did and became in my opinion, aHOF coach.

Hopefully Mara will do the same with Daboll and the results will change .
 

I think we all hope this happens.  However, I will say this: leopards changing their spots is pretty rare.   As Giants fans, we were lucky enough to witness Tom making a major adjustment in the way he conducted himself.  Outside of Coughlin I can't think of another coach who changed that drastically.

Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 16, 2024, 10:32:31 AMMaybe this was said already, if so , sorry for the redundancy.

I remember there was an issue with Tom Coughlin and I believe Mara sat him down and told him that he had to change, which he did and became in my opinion, aHOF coach.

Hopefully Mara will do the same with Daboll and the results will change .
 

Players felt he was inaccessible. He claimed his door was always open, but ultimately was convinced his business 24/7 approach was intimidating to the majority and he had to make himself more accessible.

Being verbally abusive is a bit of a different issue, hopefully he can right the ship

Or we are in a 1 year away from our next coach

I will be honest and say I think the article is 100% true.  I for one do not care about his "management style", I care about results.  But what this article alludes to is not a difference in management style with which Wink did not want to deal.  It is outright lunacy.  I would not be surprised if he is still here only because Mara is concerned with the optic of firing a 3rd coach after 2 years.  I would not be surprised if this does cause Mara to reconsider.

Quote from: babywhales on January 16, 2024, 12:29:06 PMPlayers felt he was inaccessible. He claimed his door was always open, but ultimately was convinced his business 24/7 approach was intimidating to the majority and he had to make himself more accessible.

Being verbally abusive is a bit of a different issue, hopefully he can right the ship

Or we are in a 1 year away from our next coach

Strahan talked about in his book.  Talked about how he snapped at Coughlin during either the 2006 or 2007 season (I forget).  Basically told him he was losing the team after he was fined for some nonsensical reason.

Quote from: babywhales on January 16, 2024, 12:29:06 PMPlayers felt he was inaccessible. He claimed his door was always open, but ultimately was convinced his business 24/7 approach was intimidating to the majority and he had to make himself more accessible.

Being verbally abusive is a bit of a different issue, hopefully he can right the ship

Or we are in a 1 year away from our next coach

Chris,

I think it's worse than just being verbally abusive.  If this story is correct, Dadoll treated Kafka poorly.  How on earth can you do your job with the coach constantly pulling your play-calling duties?   What sort of crappy ass boss does the finger-pointing and blaming assistant coaches for losses?  Especially the Jets game. The Giants defense held the Jets to 13 points.  No rational person would blame a defense that keeps an NFL team in check and only allows them to score less than two touchdowns.   To me, that indicates a serious accountability issue with our head coach, both with himself and how he holds his coaches accountable.

This reminds me of Fermi's Paradox

If he cannot reason correctly, or put together a winning team, and is abusive to subortinates

Why is he still HC.  If Schoen really listened in for 4 games, he must be painfully aware of the discordance and abusive behavior.

Mark my words- Schoen will go down with the ship next year unless drastic changes are made

The paradox is the players do seem to like Daboll.  They never quit on him
How is this possible.  Can both things be true- Coaches hate him and players like him?  I do remember him unloading on Jones, but I'd like to unload on Jones LOL  Throw the damm ball down the field will'ya?

Let's make this easy.

Say Daboll was HC of the Saints the last 2 years with the same results he achieved with the Giants.  Everything exactly the same.

Daboll's contract has expired and the Giants have an opening and are interviewing for HC.

Would you as owner of the Giants consider him for the position of your HC ??

Amazing that Daboll's personality didn't prevent the Giants from having an unexpectedly successful year in 2022. Only now, in 2023, it seems its a problem.

I take all this with a grain of salt. I'm sure many are unhappy with Daboll's fiery nature. And he may indeed need to dial it back. But the team wasn't good this year not because of Daboll's personality, but because they lack talent--his personality just didn't help an already fragile situation with other egos (i.e. Wink) at play.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 16, 2024, 01:48:38 PMAmazing that Daboll's personality didn't prevent the Giants from having an unexpectedly successful year in 2022. Only now, in 2023, it seems its a problem.

I take all this with a grain of salt. I'm sure many are unhappy with Daboll's fiery nature. And he may indeed need to dial it back. But the team wasn't good this year not because of Daboll's personality, but because they lack talent--his personality just didn't help an already fragile situation with other egos (i.e. Wink) at play.

Good point. When you're winning, nothing is an issue. When you're losing, everything is.

I guess the only counterpoint to what you're saying would be that he doesn't handle losing/adversity well, which is less than ideal if true, but we saw him blow up a couple of times in 2022 (and that's just what we see on the TV camera).

I don't think any of this stuff reads very well, but I think you make a good point and a lot of times these things get a bit blown out of proportion by clickbait-seeker types.

the big difference between what Coughlin went through to Daboll was that Tom had difficulty relating to the players while Daboll is it almost all between him and his coaches. By all reports the current Giants players love Daboll. Coughlin lost Tiki and almost Strahan and someone came up with the Leadership committee to bridge the gap between Coughlin and his players.

I do find it interesting how Kafka is interviewing for head coaching positions while at the same time there are reports that he lost his play calling duties several times. I really don't know what these teams see in him to think he is ready to be a head coach while the over qualified Eric Bieniemy yet again cannot get an interview. I figured the Commanders not the Patriots would be the team with a successorship clause in one of their assistant's contract. 

I think the right decision is to recognize Daboll is a toxic employee and should be let go even if there consequences for firing another HC after only two years.

There are a lot of factors that influence the probability of winning a game so it's hard to point to specific outcomes in short period of time. 

You can't turn an organization around if existing staff are toxic or poor performers.  It demotivates/keeps away high performers and brings down moderate performers.  The highest rungs of an organization must set standard of professional respect in addition to performance.

How could anyone respect an assistant coach who comes to NYG after researching Daboll's reputation?  Paychecks are a short term motivator.  Purpose is what truly drives motivation.  If an organization holds onto a toxic leader, the talent that is motivated by winning and respect is going to stay far away.  I don't think the Giants can sustain a turnaround as long as Daboll is there.

Coughlin was transparent in his rules and consequences of breaking those rules and applied them uniformly.  The necessity of which rules were really needed was open for debate during his time as HC.  Daboll is acting capriciously.

Quote from: UncannyGfan on January 16, 2024, 03:02:38 PMI think the right decision is to recognize Daboll is a toxic employee and should be let go even if there consequences for firing another HC after only two years.

Are you of the opinion that we fans can make that assessment based on reading a couple articles and not by having firsthand access and looking into the matter more closely by talking to other employees etc?

Seems to me we just know a little bit, and what we do think we know may only be partially true, if even at all true.

I'm not saying nothing happened or that everything with Daboll is honky dory. More just that I feel like we fans don't know very much. It's hard for me to have a firm opinion that he should be fired based on a Pat Leonard article and a couple of other soundbites.

Quote from: UncannyGfan on January 16, 2024, 03:02:38 PMI think the right decision is to recognize Daboll is a toxic employee and should be let go even if there consequences for firing another HC after only two years.

There are a lot of factors that influence the probability of winning a game so it's hard to point to specific outcomes in short period of time. 

You can't turn an organization around if existing staff are toxic or poor performers.  It demotivates/keeps away high performers and brings down moderate performers.  The highest rungs of an organization must set standard of professional respect in addition to performance.

How could anyone respect an assistant coach who comes to NYG after researching Daboll's reputation?  Paychecks are a short term motivator.  Purpose is what truly drives motivation.  If an organization holds onto a toxic leader, the talent that is motivated by winning and respect is going to stay far away.  I don't think the Giants can sustain a turnaround as long as Daboll is there.

Coughlin was transparent in his rules and consequences of breaking those rules and applied them uniformly.  The necessity of which rules were really needed was open for debate during his time as HC.  Daboll is acting capriciously.

How can you let Daboll go? He just hired a new OL coach and is interviewing for a ST Coach and running backs coach plus a new DC . What do you tell these people. No, Daboll will be the coach in 2024 unless some devastating news comes out  about him personally . If the Giants do poorly in 2024 then I would expect him gone .

Whatever went on Schoen knew and then so did Mara. I should be surprised if Mara hired BB and fired Daboll but I won't.

Here is a good one


Report: Giants' Brian Daboll makes 'brutal' outbursts 'personal'


https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/12/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-makes-brutal-outbursts-personal/

They would have been much better off with Flores. But Daboll was the flavor of the day and came as a package with Schoen. Better if Schoen hired someone who he wasn't as familiar with and went through the extensive vetting and interviewing process. Daboll got the job soon after Schoen did. Not good.

Quote from: katkavage on January 16, 2024, 04:43:27 PMThey would have been much better off with Flores. But Daboll was the flavor of the day and came as a package with Schoen. Better if Schoen hired someone who he wasn't as familiar with and went through the extensive vetting and interviewing process. Daboll got the job soon after Schoen did. Not good.

To be fair... this time last year there wasn't a single question about whether they had the right coach or not. While this is obviously a terrible look for Daboll last year he dragged that crap team to not just a playoff appearance but also a win.  So let's see if he takes these lessons to heart and changes his behavior. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on January 16, 2024, 05:26:34 PMTo be fair... this time last year there wasn't a single question about whether they had the right coach or not. While this is obviously a terrible look for Daboll last year he dragged that crap team to not just a playoff appearance but also a win.  So let's see if he takes these lessons to heart and changes his behavior. 

I agree but his hot seat got hotter and the pressure on him will be fierce next season. Also, can he lure good assistants now knowing he is on the hot seat?

Daboll gets another year to turn things around.  My problem is in 2022 they ended the year 2-5-1.  Yes, they beat the Vikings in the playoffs but as some of said they might of set the franchise back.  They then got trounced by the Eagles in the next round. 

Anyway you look at it 2023 was a step backwards and now throw in the turmoil with the coaching staff.  Plus, what still needs to be done with this roster. 

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 16, 2024, 01:48:38 PMAmazing that Daboll's personality didn't prevent the Giants from having an unexpectedly successful year in 2022. Only now, in 2023, it seems its a problem.

I take all this with a grain of salt. I'm sure many are unhappy with Daboll's fiery nature. And he may indeed need to dial it back. But the team wasn't good this year not because of Daboll's personality, but because they lack talent--his personality just didn't help an already fragile situation with other egos (i.e. Wink) at play.

And no one seemed to notice or talk about this glaring character flaw in his 20 years of previous NFL coaching?

Meh, I am in the smear and frame-up school.  I trust Pat Leonard about as far as I can throw Dexter Lawrence.

The problem I have with making 2024 a do or die year for Daboll is the QB position. If we happen to be starting a rookie next year, and he struggles a bit but perhaps shows some improvement over the course of the year and we end up 7-10, would you necessarily fire him?

If we don't draft a QB and Jones struggles again or gets hurt again and we're depending on another backup, and we have a similar record to this year, are you firing Daboll for that? Would you fire both Daboll and Schoen?

If we fire Daboll after next year and then draft a QB in 2025 along with hiring Daboll's replacement, and then that QB struggles in year one and we go 6-11, will that coach be on the hot seat going into his second year in 2026?

You see where I'm going with this right? I feel like we've become the pre-Stefanski Cleveland Browns or the pre-Campbell Lions. We're now firing coaches every two years. One of the staples of a losing franchise.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 16, 2024, 06:03:00 PMThe problem I have with making 2024 a do or die year for Daboll is the QB position. If we happen to be starting a rookie next year, and he struggles a bit but perhaps shows some improvement over the course of the year and we end up 7-10, would you necessarily fire him?

If we don't draft a QB and Jones struggles again or gets hurt again and we're depending on another backup, and we have a similar record to this year, are you firing Daboll for that? Would you fire both Daboll and Schoen?

If we fire Daboll after next year and then draft a QB in 2025 along with hiring Daboll's replacement, and then that QB struggles in year one and we go 6-11, will that coach be on the hot seat going into his second year in 2026?

You see where I'm going with this right? I feel like we've become the pre-Stefanski Cleveland Browns or the pre-Campbell Lions. We're now firing coaches every two years. One of the staples of a losing franchise.

I'm with you.  Daboll has to show he's learned a lesson from all of this and if he does, he'll likely be a better coach and the team will likely have a better record.  If Jones starts all year that record may still not be pretty but I wouldn't hold that entirely against him.  If they draft a rookie who spends the year developing and shows improvement as the year goes on the record might not end up pretty again but at least there's hope for the future. 

Quote from: UncannyGfan on January 16, 2024, 03:02:38 PMI think the right decision is to recognize Daboll is a toxic employee and should be let go even if there consequences for firing another HC after only two years.

There are a lot of factors that influence the probability of winning a game so it's hard to point to specific outcomes in short period of time. 

You can't turn an organization around if existing staff are toxic or poor performers.  It demotivates/keeps away high performers and brings down moderate performers.  The highest rungs of an organization must set standard of professional respect in addition to performance.

How could anyone respect an assistant coach who comes to NYG after researching Daboll's reputation?  Paychecks are a short term motivator.  Purpose is what truly drives motivation.  If an organization holds onto a toxic leader, the talent that is motivated by winning and respect is going to stay far away.  I don't think the Giants can sustain a turnaround as long as Daboll is there.

Coughlin was transparent in his rules and consequences of breaking those rules and applied them uniformly.  The necessity of which rules were really needed was open for debate during his time as HC.  Daboll is acting capriciously.

He is the head coach of an NFL team.  Not an assistant manager at Shop Rite who berates and bullies 16 and 17 year olds.

There is an article in the Post that tells the Daboll saga from supposedly the NY Giants view. The picture presented is much less harsh than discussed here and also paints Wink in an unflattering light. I know this has been beaten to death but what's been discussed here does not appear to be 100% correct. Worth a look and if true shows how words can get twisted.

link?

As Pontius Pilate famously said, "What is Truth?"

Apparently this all stems from the bad blood between Wink and Daboll.

The players liked playing for both and like playing for Brian.

One article referenced how all the coaches traditionally meet for dinner in the cafeteria but Wink and the 2 brothers would eat in Winks office

Two talented coaches who just did not like each other.

Hopefully Daboll is able to attract assistants who are both talented and blend in.   This whole thing is reminicent of Buddy Ryan and Mike Ditka fueding in 1985 but still winning a Lombardi.  Then Buddy (another Blitz guy) took off for Philly.  Seems guys who like to blitz often dont want to report to anyone

I'll preface this with the fact I am almost 76 and memories quickly fade away but wasn't one of the reasons that the Ravens let Wink go was the HC wanted Wink to run a different defense that was less blitz heavy and throughout the year Wink basically said through his actions that he would run his defense the way he wanted it to run. That is not a very good look if true.

Bill

Quote from: GloryDays on January 16, 2024, 11:42:04 PMlink?

https://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-cursed-out-giants-brian-daboll-after-firings/amp/

For those that may be interested, Pat Leonard discusses his article in his latest podcast

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0KRzMGKJB23zgHTvWPSIQk?si=dbf1c16ef27049ec


I listened, and while I found it interesting, I struggled to say I learned much beyond what he had already laid out in the article.

Joe Judge had a similar problem with Jason Garrett and his "click".

Martindale was wrong to go to the press about the McKinney insentient. It's the head coach's job to meet with the parties behind closed doors and then give the usual non-answer to the press.

Daboll should've conferred with Martindale before firing the Wilkins's brothers. The way it was done was to force Martindale to resign.

Here's the other side of the story from today's Post.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/sports/brian-daboll-needs-to-evolve-after-giants-coaching-mess/

I don't know where to put this post so I just putb it here.

I am wondering if the Giants are waiting to see if Leslie Frasier is going to get a HC job before they hire a DC .

I am told and read that Dennard Wilson the backfield coach of the Ravens would be an excellent hire . I am sure Henderson would not be happy with that though

Quote from: Giant Jim on January 17, 2024, 09:48:22 AMJoe Judge had a similar problem with Jason Garrett and his "click".

Martindale was wrong to go to the press about the McKinney insentient. It's the head coach's job to meet with the parties behind closed doors and then give the usual non-answer to the press.

Daboll should've conferred with Martindale before firing the Wilkins's brothers. The way it was done was to force Martindale to resign.

Here's the other side of the story from today's Post.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/sports/brian-daboll-needs-to-evolve-after-giants-coaching-mess/

For those wonder about Daboll's near term future, it appears the team is 100% Daboll and perhaps doesn't even believe he needs to change based on this nugget that they leaked (from the link):

QuoteMake no mistake, Daboll within the organization did not take a hit for how this all went down. Could Daboll in his second year as a head coach at any level tried to smooth things over more adroitly? Perhaps. But there is a feeling within the organization that Martindale's quirks and what increasingly was viewed as his lack of being a team player grew into issues that had to be expunged, unless Martindale changed his ways.

It appears (since this article is based on NYG-sanctioned leaks) that reports of Schoen's listening in on coaching communications during games is true.

QuoteIt is true that Schoen for four games — victories over the Commanders, Patriots and Packers and a loss to the Saints — sensed there could be trouble brewing and donned a headset to monitor the communication amongst the coaches. He did this on his own

It also appears the claim of Daboll pointing a finger of blame has merit:

QuoteDuring the 31-19 victory in Washington, Jihad Ward (offsides) and Kayvon Thibodeaux (roughing the passer) were called for penalties and Daboll complained to Martindale about the lack of discipline from the outside linebackers — the position coached by Drew Wilkins — reminding Martindale about Thibodeaux's costly offsides penalty in the 10-7 overtime loss to the Jets. Daboll, though, did not blame Martindale for the loss to the Jets.

I will add one more thought-  Leaking out a counterpoint to Pat Leonard's scathing article was less than smart, in my opinion.   All they did was prove many of Pat's claims were true, and they kept the story going.

I guess the only partially positive accomplishment from the report they leaked to Schwartz was that they killed any talk about Daboll being held accountable for their behavior or that he might be fired or punished.   I say partially because it would be helpful for the team long-term if they put some real pressure to get Daboll to clean up his act.  When Coughlin changed his ways, everyone, including Coughlin, knew he was on the hot seat.   That was part of what motivated Coughlin to change and improve. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 17, 2024, 10:11:29 AMFor those wonder about Daboll's near term future, it appears the team is 100% Daboll and perhaps doesn't even believe he needs to change based on this nugget that they leaked (from the link):


It appears (since this article is based on NYG-sanctioned leaks) that reports of Schoen's listening in on coaching communications during games is true.


It also appears the claim of Daboll pointing a finger of blame has merit:

That OLB incident was setting up the firing. Daboll is a lot more cunning than people give him credit for. As for Daboll's consequences, Rich? Don't believe that there aren't any. I'm sure he was spoken to about his sideline demeanor and maintaining his composure. Any future incidents and he will be looked at as the most common denominator.

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 17, 2024, 02:32:53 PMThat OLB incident was setting up the firing. Daboll is a lot more cunning than people give him credit for. As for Daboll's consequences, Rich? Don't believe that there aren't any. I'm sure he was spoken to about his sideline demeanor and maintaining his composure. Any future incidents and he will be looked at as the most common denominator.

The problem with cunning is that I know very few people who want to work for a cunning boss, especially if that cunning is directed at them or their coworkers.  I have repeatedly heard how Daboll got over on one of his assistant coaches and that other coaches see that and are turned off by such behavior.

I suspect the game-playing turns off his coaching staff far more than being cursed out.  Most people prefer to work with straight shooters.

As for the, if it happens again consequences.   Now that the word is out there as to how Daboll treats his coaches, the people who will take interviews will either have no problem working for a less-than-straightforward HC or are desperate for work and will tolerate anything.  So I doubt we will see another Wink style blowup.   I am mindful that when Wink took the job, how Daboll would conduct himself as a head coach was unknown.

I am interested in seeing who replaces Wink.  Many who were supportive of Wink's departure seemed to believe there was an opportunity to upgrade.   The list of candidates, to date, has been less than impressive.  If they don't pull a rabbit out of their hat, it seems the quality of the defensive coaching staff may decline a bit this offseason. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 17, 2024, 02:43:24 PMThe problem with cunning is that I know very few people who want to work for a cunning boss, especially if that cunning is directed at them or their coworkers.  I have repeatedly heard how Daboll got over on one of his assistant coaches and that other coaches see that and are turned off by such behavior.

I suspect the game-playing turns off his coaching staff far more than being cursed out.  Most people prefer to work with straight shooters.

As for the, if it happens again consequences.   Now that the word is out there as to how Daboll treats his coaches, the people who will take interviews will either have no problem working for a less-than-straightforward HC or are desperate for work and will tolerate anything.  So I doubt we will see another Wink style blowup.   I am mindful that when Wink took the job, how Daboll would conduct himself as a head coach was unknown.

I am interested in seeing who replaces Wink.  Many who were supportive of Wink's departure seemed to believe there was an opportunity to upgrade.   The list of candidates, to date, has been less than impressive.  If they don't pull a rabbit out of their hat, it seems the quality of the defensive coaching staff may decline a bit this offseason. 

I agree that there are those who are and would be turned off by Daboll's personality and his behavior. But there are those who aren't. We all have our preferences and there are many people who cannot handle a straight-shooter who gives them the honest truth without fluff. Regardless of their preference, whoever chooses to stay on Daboll's staff will undoubtedly perform to the best of their ability, as it reflects on them, not Daboll.

Regarding Wink's replacement, you know all too well that this is a 'what have you done for me, lately' business. If the new guy gets the defense to show improvement, we will care even less about Wink. I would advise folks to give the new guy a chance to see what his defense actually does before comparing him to Wink. Personally, I'm not a fan of being 'better on paper.' I want to be better on game days.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 17, 2024, 02:43:24 PMThe problem with cunning is that I know very few people who want to work for a cunning boss, especially if that cunning is directed at them or their coworkers.  I have repeatedly heard how Daboll got over on one of his assistant coaches and that other coaches see that and are turned off by such behavior.

I suspect the game-playing turns off his coaching staff far more than being cursed out.  Most people prefer to work with straight shooters.

As for the, if it happens again consequences.  Now that the word is out there as to how Daboll treats his coaches, the people who will take interviews will either have no problem working for a less-than-straightforward HC or are desperate for work and will tolerate anything.  So I doubt we will see another Wink style blowup.  I am mindful that when Wink took the job, how Daboll would conduct himself as a head coach was unknown.

I am interested in seeing who replaces Wink.  Many who were supportive of Wink's departure seemed to believe there was an opportunity to upgrade.  The list of candidates, to date, has been less than impressive.  If they don't pull a rabbit out of their hat, it seems the quality of the defensive coaching staff may decline a bit this offseason. 

Yes but Rich if Wink was giving him the business his with his minions, he has every right to be cunning and protect himself. The problem with looking at it from the outside is we don't know if these highlights paint a picture of the day-to-day BS or if they are isolated over two years. Seems to me that both parties had culpability to a certain extent. We don't know who was the greater transgressor.

As for getting a better DC? Does it really matter? The team will eventually implode with a toxic relationship. One or both of them had to go, and Schoen with his ear at the door and his finger on the pulse of the situation supported Daboll. He had enough to fire both if he felt that he was playing Russian Roulette with a bullet named Wink and a bullet named Daboll. He in essence put his job on the line for his HC. If he fired Daboll however, that's the same as firing Wink too. The next HC would never agree to having this guy under him and in almost all cases, the entire staff goes. Then it's start all over from scratch. 

Wink left over pride when his boys were ejected. He lost power and he didn't want to exist in a world where he didn't have hand. That to me, speaks for itself. Eventually we will know if the right decisions were made. I hope for us that they were. We as fans deserve better.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 17, 2024, 02:43:24 PMThe problem with cunning is that I know very few people who want to work for a cunning boss,

The good part about cunning is that cunning people tend to be successful.

Given our OLB cluster flop in lack of development and misuse of Kayvon, and them being the weak spot in our atrocious run defense, irrespective of cliques and undermining Daboll had more than enough justification to fire Wilkins.

Bottom line is this - Dabol took a step back this year from where he was after last season.

He also looks uncomfortable in post game press conferences which I thought would start to improve but it hasn't.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 17, 2024, 03:43:30 PMThe good part about cunning is that cunning people tend to be successful.

Given our OLB cluster flop in lack of development and misuse of Kayvon, and them being the weak spot in our atrocious run defense, irrespective of cliques and undermining Daboll had more than enough justification to fire Wilkins.

My experience with cunning people is they tend to be personally successful while not bringing much value to the organization, coworkers, or subordinates.

Also, which side of the ball was less successful?  Offense (Daboll) or Defense (Wink)?

Quote from: Trench on January 17, 2024, 03:50:45 PMBottom line is this - Dabol took a step back this year from where he was after last season.

He also looks uncomfortable in post game press conferences which I thought would start to improve but it hasn't.

I think these are both accurate and fair statements.

Quote from: BluesCruz on January 16, 2024, 01:21:46 PMThis reminds me of Fermi's Paradox

If he cannot reason correctly, or put together a winning team, and is abusive to subortinates

Why is he still HC.  If Schoen really listened in for 4 games, he must be painfully aware of the discordance and abusive behavior.

Mark my words- Schoen will go down with the ship next year unless drastic changes are made

The paradox is the players do seem to like Daboll.  They never quit on him
How is this possible.  Can both things be true- Coaches hate him and players like him?  I do remember him unloading on Jones, but I'd like to unload on Jones LOL  Throw the damm ball down the field will'ya?

He went after Tyrod Taylor a couple of times too.

It's not impossible he beats up his coaching staff but looks out for players.

Gi

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 17, 2024, 03:58:20 PMMy experience with cunning people is they tend to be personally successful while not bringing much value to the organization, coworkers, or subordinates.

Also, which side of the ball was less successful?  Offense (Daboll) or Defense (Wink)?

Given the conventional wisdom that to be successful you have to be able to run the ball and stop the run, clearly the 16th ranked rushing offense, not the 32nd ranked rushing defense.

I listened to the Giants Insider Podcast this morning.  I consider him (and Paul Schwartz) as the two mouth pieces for NYG among the beat reporters.  Here are the Giants unofficial message points:

1)  It was just Daboll being Daboll; there was nothing to see here, folks.  Schoen and the owners are 100% behind Daboll

2) It's okay that Daboll abuses his coaching staff for two reasons.  First, Parcells did the same thing back in the 80s, and the players still like Daboll (and played hard for him down the stretch), so it's all good.

3) The Giants really want to stop talking about this.

4) They do not deny any of the facts reported by Pat Leonard, but they are still blaming Wink for everything, and Wink needs to keep his mouth shut.

5) Everyone has had their boss scream at them; it's normal

6) The Giants were able to sign an RB and O-line coach, so clearly, Daboll's mistreatment of his coaching staff isn't a problem.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 18, 2024, 08:35:33 AMI listened to the Giants Insider Podcast this morning.  I consider him (and Paul Schwartz) as the two mouth pieces for NYG among the beat reporters.  Here are the Giants unofficial message points:

1)  It was just Daboll being Daboll; there was nothing to see here, folks.  Schoen and the owners are 100% behind Daboll

2) It's okay that Daboll abuses his coaching staff for two reasons.  First, Parcells did the same thing back in the 80s, and the players still like Daboll (and played hard for him down the stretch), so it's all good.

3) The Giants really want to stop talking about this.

4) They do not deny any of the facts reported by Pat Leonard, but they are still blaming Wink for everything, and Wink needs to keep his mouth shut.

5) Everyone has had their boss scream at them; it's normal

6) The Giants were able to sign an RB and O-line coach, so clearly, Daboll's mistreatment of his coaching staff isn't a problem.

Do you think the had Wink sign a DND for his 3 mil?

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 18, 2024, 08:47:26 AMDo you think the had Wink sign a DND for his 3 mil?

Wink didn't get any money from NYG when he left; he just got his freedom to go anywhere else.   Plus, people in the NFL talk.  Non-disclosures are unheard of in the NFL, and it would have made the Giants look as guilty as sin if they had former employees sign them.

We have heard from both sides of this story.  What I find rather striking is that the two sides don't seem to be disputing the facts.  They are simply putting out the facts their side feels are damming to the other side.  So, I think this is a situation where we have a pretty good idea of what went on behind the scenes (pretty much everything we heard from both sides).

Having consumed all the information I could, I wouldn't say I am convinced Daboll will fail moving forward, but I have serious doubts about Daboll's ability to turn things around and be the sort of head coach who establishes a winning culture and enjoys sustained success.

It's not just the issues with the coaching.  As you pointed out, Daboll has been extremely player-friendly.   This past season's training camp had a country club atmosphere, which seemed to leave the team ill-prepared for the start of the season.   I am not sure it's a good look that players struggle to be heard when they talk to reporters in the locker room over the hooting and the hollering over the ping pong games. 

I think what the problem with the Giants' ownership is they put too much stock in how the team plays in the last quarter of the season rather than considering how they played over the entire season.  That's why we have the pattern of being out of the playoffs by Halloween, but the team wins enough games to drop their draft position, making talent acquisition more difficult.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 18, 2024, 08:58:33 AMWink didn't get any money from NYG when he left; he just got his freedom to go anywhere else.   Plus, people in the NFL talk.  Non-disclosures are unheard of in the NFL, and it would have made the Giants look as guilty as sin if they had former employees sign them.

We have heard from both sides of this story.  What I find rather striking is that the two sides don't seem to be disputing the facts.  They are simply putting out the facts their side feels are damming to the other side.  So, I think this is a situation where we have a pretty good idea of what went on behind the scenes (pretty much everything we heard from both sides).

Having consumed all the information I could, I wouldn't say I am convinced Daboll will fail moving forward, but I have serious doubts about Daboll's ability to turn things around and be the sort of head coach who establishes a winning culture and enjoys sustained success.

It's not just the issues with the coaching.  As you pointed out, Daboll has been extremely player-friendly.   This past season's training camp had a country club atmosphere, which seemed to leave the team ill-prepared for the start of the season.   I am not sure it's a good look that players struggle to be heard when they talk to reporters in the locker room over the hooting and the hollering over the ping pong games. 

I think what the problem with the Giants' ownership is they put too much stock in how the team plays in the last quarter of the season rather than considering how they played over the entire season.  That's why we have the pattern of being out of the playoffs by Halloween, but the team wins enough games to drop their draft position, making talent acquisition more difficult.

Yup, I have more of a problem with how this team was prepared for the season and some decisions that were made in preparing the Roster and deciding on the roster as well as starting Cutlets over Taylor, which may have killed what playoff hopes they had. The Oline decisions were the real killer.

Quote from: Ed Vette on January 18, 2024, 09:06:18 AMYup, I have more of a problem with how this team was prepared for the season and some decisions that were made in preparing the Roster and deciding on the roster as well as starting Cutlets over Taylor, which may have killed what playoff hopes they had. The Oline decisions were the real killer.

I would also say that the fiasco at the end of the half in Buffalo is the fault of both Tyrod and Daboll.  Daboll's job as a non-playing calling HC is to make sure players understand what to do in situations like the one T2 faced.   Otherwise, other than making it harder for the other coaches to do their jobs by screaming into the headsets, what value is Daboll bringing on game day?

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 18, 2024, 08:35:33 AM5) Everyone has had their boss scream at them; it's normal

I think this is coming way less common outside of pro sports. Maybe its the current crop of millenials coming out of college who are less accepting of this type of behavior from their superiors. I haven't been screamed at in a workplace in many years.

Quote6) The Giants were able to sign an RB and O-line coach, so clearly, Daboll's mistreatment of his coaching staff isn't a problem.

Excellent point but do we know of Mara and Tisch have greenlight above market salaries for these assistants (they should regardless)? Not only were the signed, but signed quickly and with stellar resumes.

I don't know if this article has already been included but I just saw it today

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/18/new-york-giants-staffers-view-current-environment-as-toxic/

Giants staffers view current environment as 'toxic'

Quote from: TDToomer on January 18, 2024, 11:58:03 AMI think this is coming way less common outside of pro sports. Maybe its the current crop of millenials coming out of college who are less accepting of this type of behavior from their superiors. I haven't been screamed at in a workplace in many years.

Excellent point but do we know of Mara and Tisch have greenlight above market salaries for these assistants (they should regardless)? Not only were the signed, but signed quickly and with stellar resumes.

Yeah, the screaming has long been phased out.   At this point, even raising your voice (regardless of what you say) can result in getting called on the carpet at human resources.

I found it ironic that NYG cited Parcells as justification for yelling at coaches.  The thing with Parcells is he didn't yell at everyone (player or coach).  Parcells was a master motivator.  He appreciated that everyone was different.  Some players and coaches would respond best to being yelled at, while others would perform their best with a pat on the ass.  If Parcells was head coach, I seriously doubt he would have been yelling at Wink, because he would have realized that wasn't the best approach to take with him.