Quote from: kartanoman on May 03, 2024, 05:14:15 PMTo all.
Go back and get a copy of Dave Klein's paperback, "Giants Again" which tells the most complete story of how the Giants worked through "The Wilderness Years" all the way to the other side with George Young, AND Ray Perkins getting the Giants into the 1981 playoffs. A gutsy call in the 1979 draft to pick Phil Simms, and luck on their side, in the 1981 draft, when the Saints took George Rogers with the first pick, which opened the door for the Giants to select Lawrence Taylor, and the rest is history.
Peace!
Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 03:39:09 AM"If you want to say that Brady playing behind a top five offensive line, for the majority of his career had absolutely no impact on his performance, well then be my guest."
REBUTTAL: Where did I, or anyone, state Brady and Manning did not benefit from playing behind top tier OLs? You're reframing your own premise for reasons only you know. What I stated, and objectively proved is both QBs were ALSO successful playing behind poor-to-terrible OLs. Thus, they did NOT always benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense." Yes, Eli and Brady played behind some very good OLs, and benefited as all QBs do; however, that doesn't invalidate thier numerous successes playing behind bottom 10 OLs; in fact, both had AP/MVP-type seasons playing with the NFLs' literal worst Olines..
"And then after doing so provide only one year, that is right, just one year (2011) of Eli Mannings fifteen-year career (2004-2018) to make your point, and then build an entire world view around it."
REBUTTAL: As I accurately predicted, and stated, your mind is already made up and no amount of objective data will sway you. So, why waste time providing a cogent, time-consuming response? I also reject the notion I only provided one years worth of data; in response to Rich, I provided 9 years worth of data to support my supposition, in addition to providing 3 years worth of Patriot data. However, since you brought it up, I will do so again, this time with aggregate PFF OL rankings."
"So let us begin to expose the faulty line of reasoning."
REBUTTAL: You remind me of Blue Fire; any opposing views and/or rebuttals were classified as "faulty." Do you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or employs fault logic? I knew from past research that your statement was factually inaccurate and did my best provide a response predicated on facts.
"In 2011, the only year that you shared, what you failed to bring out, was that he had three elite WR's to help him out, in Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham."
REBUTTAL: This is factually incorrect; in response to Tonka, I explicitly stated "Cruz was as integral to the Giants' 2011 success as JPP." Besides, you're moving the goal post, presumably because you were unaware of the Giants' 2011 OL ranking. You explicitly stated "Go and look up the offensive line rankings Tom Brady and Eli Manning both played with in the prime of their career" and "It is no coincidence that both had elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defensee."" BTW, I suspect the majority of fans would avoid classifying Manningham (good) or Nicks(stints as very good) as 'elite', especially the former. How did both do without Manning? You're also torpedoing your own assertion: "What is more important to the QB than the WR is the offensive line."; to explain the 2011 season, you're suggesting it was byproduct of WRs talent. What about Mannings other 3 Pro Bowl seasons when you played with bottom 10 Olines? In fact, his two best seasons were 2011 and 2015, when he was paired with bottom 3 pass-protection. As you highlighted, he did enjoy a solid WR trio in 2011 and superstar WR in 2015 (OBJ). So, based on your input, it appears the reverse is true (i.e. wrs are more important than the OL). At a minimum, we should discuss this assertion as it appears it has some merit. I digress though as WR(s) weren't our focus; you introduced them after learning about the Giants' 2011 OL rankings
BL: Your premise that Manning and Brady's successes were predicated on "elite OLs" during "thier prime" is objectively false.
Eli's aggregate Oline Rankings:
2008 11 (Unk) * Made the Pro Bowl
2009 6 (12 Pass Blocking)
2010 13 (17 Pass Blocking)
2011 31 (31 Pass Blocking) * Made the Pro Bowl/MVP and AP votes
2012 11 (21 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2013 28 (31 Pass Blocking)
2014 20 (28 Pass Blocking)
2015 20 (28 Pass Blocking) *Made the Pro Bowl
2016 20 (24 Pass Blocking)
2008* 27 16 289 479 60.3 3238 21 10 86.4 66.9 PB
2009 28 16 317 509 62.3 4021 27 14 93.1 71.7
2010 29 16 339 539 62.9 4002 31 25 85.3 57.7
2011* 30 16 359 589 61 4933 29 16 92.9 64.2 AP CPoY-6, PB
2012* 31 16 321 536 59.9 3948 26 15 87.2 67 PB
2013 32 16 317 551 57.5 3818 18 27 69.4 38.6
2014 33 16 379 601 63.1 4410 30 14 92.1 61
2015* 34 16 387 618 62.6 4432 35 14 93.6 57.9 PB
2016 35 16 377 598 63.0 4027 26 16 86.0 45.7
Note – I did not include 2017 through 2019 as the OP explicitly stated "in the prime of their careers." On average, QBs not named Brady start to regress around their mid-30s; this was true for all of Manning's 2004 draft contemporaries (e.g. Big Ben and Rivers).
Key Takeaways:
1. With the exception of 2013, Eli's output remained consistent
2. Eli's statistical best two seasons (2011 and 2015) occurred when paired with bottom 3 Pass Blocking lines; he did have Cruz, Nix and OBJ
3. Eli's best season was 2011, playing behind the NFL's worst OL
4. Eli's worst season was 2013, playing behind the NFL's 28th OL
5. Eli's 4 PB seasons occurred playing behind the 11, 31, 11 and 20 rated lines.
6. 3 of 4 of his PB seasons were accomplished playing with bottom 10 pass blocking line; 2 of 4 were bottom 3 (31, 21, and 28)
7. During his Prime, Eli's aggregate OL ranking was #18
8. During his Prime, Eli's average pass protection ranking was #24
9. On average, Eli did NOT benefit from "elite level line play to give them time to dissect a defense"; in his prime, the exact opposite was true....he had a bottom 7 pass blocking oline
10 The same is true for Tom Brady; in his prime, he remained consistent, independent of his OL rankings. His 2015 MVP season was accomplished behind the NFL's worst pass-blocking line.
The data is remarkably clear; Brady and Manning outputs were NOT wholly predicated on thier OL performances. Both literally prove the opposite of the premise introduced; each remained consistent during MULTIPLE seasons with poor Olines in thier prime. In short, it's possible for QBs to be HIGHLY successful (e.g. MVPs/APs) playing behind terrible olines. Looking at the data, can we at least agree on that point? Can we agree Eli and Brady enjoyed MULTPLE Pro Bowl/SB seasons playing behind bottom 10 olines? If true, can we also agree that it's possible for Top-Tier QBs to be successful without elite, or even good OLs? I will agree with the notion that 36 through 38 year old Manning needed a plus offensive line to be successful, as the data supports that conclusion; however, Prime Eli did not.
IMO, it's a disservice to Eli's greatness to perpetuate a false-narrative that his success was predicted on an elite (or even good) Oline; the fact is, for the majority of his prime, his Oline stunk. From a more macro perspective, it's unnecessary to perpetuate these false claims to support the notion that QB failures are a byproduct of poor oline play. Prime Eli quite literally proves the opposite.