The talent available
It
No better way to spend an early Sunday morning than reading a positional preview and then the morning paper. I remember a line from your Senior Bowl preview where you pretty much said Reese needed to stop dicking around with the OL and get serious about protecting our franchise player. It put a smile on my face because I so want to see a return of the dominance this OL had in 08 and 09.
Unless we do a slight trade up I don't see Warmack or Cooper dropping to us.
I love Warford's size and power, but I agree he doesn't fit what we do offensively (though I still wouldn't mind him in the 2nd). He's like a a stronger, nastier Ron Stone.
Again we are of like minds. I've loved Barrett Jones since I 1st noticed him at LG (or was it LT?) when they absolutely embarrassed Texas for the national championship a few years back. He's the personification of a TC Giants lineman. Only question is will he make to our 3rd round pick?
The talent available
Not a good year for RB
No one does it better than you, Ceri. Not only are the analyses enlightening but the form and content are a the model pre-Draft reference.
In your OT review, I'll be interested in your assessment of Kevin Pugh as a potential OLG and emergency OLT, and Kyle Long as an OLT/OLG prospect. As we all know, no team has valued and exploited versatility in their Olinemen more than Our Heroes. They have mined a lot of value from multipositional players like Dave Diehl and Kevin Boothe. But they were 5th and 6th Round picks, respectively. Pugh and Long wont last that long; certainly not past the 3rd Round.
Much obliged.
Cheers!
DesG, I think one of the story lines for the Giants that is worth watching in this draft is the Dallas Cowboys' selections. They pick just in front of the Giants and their primary needs would appear to be DT, Center, Guard, and Safety. They could heavily influence the Giants selections. If you believe like most of the experts do that only one of the two top rated OGs will be there when Dallas selects, I think Dallas will take him (Warmack or Cooper). That could very well be the top guy on the Giants' board. If there is still one of the DTs available, there is no way he slides past Dallas, meaning they will be looking for OG/C or Safety in Round 2. If none of the DTs or OGs are there, I think they take a long look at Kenny Vaccaro, S, again potentially influencing the Giants' selection.
I could see this going on for two or three rounds as guys like Eric Reid or Barrett Jones are sitting there when Dallas selects. My hope is that Dallas, who has a penchant for skill players in the early rounds, will select another RB to go with the oft injured pair they have now. If they don't, and the Giants make any move at all in the draft, it wouldn't surprise me to see them trade up two to three spots with Pittsburgh or St. Louis to jump ahead of Dallas in the second or third rounds.
There has been some debate about drafting a guard at 19. I was listening to Gil Brandt yesterday morning and he addressed the idea of drafting guards early. His point was how much would one of the top guards (Cooper or Warmack) change a game as opposed to one of the guards you could draft a little later. Would they be game changers? That was an interesting way to look at it and after reading Ceri's write up I am not sure I see a big enough difference between the big two and the Giants prototypes.
No love for Marcus Lattimore? As someone to stash on IR this year and then see what he is in 2014? Or do you think his knee injury makes him too much of a risk?
That is an excellent point; I'm glad you added it to the discussion, Rich. Team's draft boards are layered; they are not just vertical but lateral as well. They will refelect player value, position value, and priority. And as I understand it, some teams color-code board entries in the the first two or three rounds to reflect what they view as higher value combinations.
Where the priority for the OG position is high enough, as many here feel it is for the Giants, it would be hard to argue that Warmack or Cooper wouldn't represent excellent value at 19. It might also be true that an available DE, OT, LB, or DB would be of no greater value; maybe lesser on a vertical scale. But, not only would priority be a factor, but also the ability to match the pick at 19 to the one at 49 in the effort to maximize value. Thus a combo with an OG at 49 with a DE or DB at 19 might tally highest in perceived value
Cheers!
Yes Rich, and we've talked around that topic a bit here in recent weeks but didn't get straight to the point as you have. I think a Guard or ORT is on the Giants list of wants in this draft. I just don't believe they will use a first round pick on one in this draft. For example, lets look at the linemen coming out from Alabama. Would anyone really care if we had Barrett Jones or Warmack starting for the next 5 years? Barrett Jones or Fluker at ORT - same question? Each are projected as step in and start guys coached by former NFL coaches at Alabama under Nick Saban. I wouldn't care which one they drafted. They all could do the job well, possibly with no discernible difference. So why take Warmack or Fluker in Round 1 when you should be able to get a Jones in Round 2, or perhaps even Round 3!?
Even if the Giants consider ORT or LB as their highest needs going into this draft (which I don't believe they do), I still think they would pass on them in Round 1. There are DEs, DTs, and some would argue DBs in Round 1 that you just can't get in Round 2 or later. You have to look at those latter positions harder in Round 1, and the Giants always have.
My brother told me about an article he read where Weatherford was being interviewed. I think most know the Giants punter is also a workout freak who has appeared shirtless on the cover of GQ. Apparently Hynoski has been working out with him to improve both his strength and speed in hopes of getting more snaps and maybe even some carries. Weatherford was very impressed with the progress Hynoski was making and said something in the interview like, "wait until the coaches get a load of this guy this summer."
I think it is a long shot to expect much more out of Hynoski than he has given so far. I just thought I'd throw that out there. If nothing else it has made me curious.
With so many needs, Miguel Maysonet later in the draft might be the best choice
Without an immediate need for an interior lineman, Barrett Jones in the 2nd round might be the best choice.
Quote from: DesG89 on April 14, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
No love for Marcus Lattimore? As someone to stash on IR this year and then see what he is in 2014? Or do you think his knee injury makes him too much of a risk?
Sadly I think he'll have a short, painful career. I loved him from his first game as a true freshman when he looked NFL ready on his debut but he's blown out both ACL's the past two years. He's a terrific player.
You know just how good a person he is from the fact Steve Spurrier was almost in tears in the press conference after Lattimore suffered what I would have to say was the most gruesome leg injury I've ever seen that didn't include a broken bone. Not like Spurrier to be emotional... Seemingly based on his receiving cheers for doing virtually nothing at his Pro Day the NFL concurs with Spurrier. I really hope he returns but I won't bank on it.
If Cooper or Warmack fall that far it will certainly be interesting from a fan perspective. We would gain a lot of insight on how JR and company value positions (assuming he has those two guys rated as high as others).
I think Brandt's comments bring out the reason both these guys could fall. We regularly see teams reach at the LT position in the 1st round but not at guard. If you believe either of those guys are going to be a dominant perennial pro-bowl type player I think you take them at 19. Having an elite player at any position in the NFL gives you unique advantages. In this case I cannot help but think of Wilson having holes to run through like the 2008 line gave Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Of course the question is will they really be that good?
ucannjack, the Giants may have already answered our question in 2010. The needs for the Giants were LB (shocker) and O-Line. Most of the "experts" had the Giants taking Rolando McLain, Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, Anthony Davis, or Brian Bulaga. Three of those (Pouncey, Iupati, and Bulaga) were still there when the Giants selected at 15 after trades took place for other teams to move up to picks 11, 12, and 13. They took Jason Pierre-Paul who according to almost every mock draft prognosticator had absolutely no chance of being there.
Everything we are talking about now sounds great, but it could all change on draft day. If this years draft is like the last few years, it WILL change.
Not sure I'd assume Warmack, Fluker and Jones play in the NFL to the same degree of proficiency. The NFL will sort that out within a few years. I'd love to see us land a Steve Hutchinson type player regardless of whether it's a first round or second round selection.
Is it now time to proclaim Andre Brown officially injury prone? Who is his backup?
So my guess is that the Giants will look for a north-south, downhill RB to compete with Brown and give the team someone to get the difficult 3rd and one first down.
My picks for this task:
Knile Davis Arkansas 3rd to 4th Round
Joseph Randle Oklahoma State 3rd to 4th Round
Stepfan Taylor Stanford 4th to 5th Round
Spencer Ware LSU 4th to 5th Round
George Winn Cincinnatti Late Rounds/Free Agent
Quote from: bamagiantfan on April 14, 2013, 01:53:33 PM
ucannjack, the Giants may have already answered our question in 2010. The needs for the Giants were LB (shocker) and O-Line. Most of the "experts" had the Giants taking Rolando McLain, Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, Anthony Davis, or Brian Bulaga. Three of those (Pouncey, Iupati, and Bulaga) were still there when the Giants selected at 15 after trades took place for other teams to move up to picks 11, 12, and 13. They took Jason Pierre-Paul who according to almost every mock draft prognosticator had absolutely no chance of being there.
Everything we are talking about now sounds great, but it could all change on draft day. If this years draft is like the last few years, it WILL change.
Actually bama ... you would be hard pressed to find any Mock Draft who had JPP rated higher than where the Giants took him. He was universally rated as the third best DE in that Draft class behind Brandon Graham and Derrick Morgan. Many Draft pundits were shocked that the Giants took him that high with many claiming he was a reach.
FWIW, Ball ran a 4.49 and a 4.51 at his pro day workout which is much more consistent with his previous 40 times than his number from the combine.
todge, you got my guy Nile Davis top on your list. In my Mock I have him in the seventh round the 225th pick overall. Terrific north south downhill runner. Davis has size, break-away, speed and strength with 31 reps. His Achilles' heel (literally) is his injury history. Somehow he managed to stay healthy for his junior year, and probably decided not to press his luck and turned out for the NFL draft. Serviceable receiver out of the backfield, and has improved his pass blocking to a reliable level.
Typical high risk high reward potential.
I don't think Davis is lasting until the 7th jaime. He looks like a late 2nd day choice. But you never know ...
Regardless, once again, with Brown's long injury history and contract issues, I would be very surprised if the Giants didn't pull the trigger on a RB at some point in the Draft. I would also expect this RB to be a good goal-line, short yardage type and a good pass blocker.
todge, I'm thinking Davis's prolific injury history will scare off most teams in the mid-round mindset. But like you said, who knows
The talent available
It
What frustrates me is most of these guys need a year to develop and the Giants line is such a mess that's a luxury they can't afford. ~X(
Watson, an OL who has considerable time boxing and playing basketball, has two things that NFL coaches kill themselves trying to teach to players - footwork and balance. Players spend their careers trying to attain both and this kid already has it. It seems to me that the most difficult stuff he already has in spades and with those skills, I'd think he'd project to OLT as well. Plus, he learned the position so quickly then played in a very competitive conference and performed? These are exactly the types of players destined to do great things. Sign me up. If we could move back a bit, acquire another pick in the 2nd or 3rd round and still get him, that'd be solid.
Phil, heard it was a tough Winter out your way... ;)
Watson as a 2nd Rd. Pick, great! But first round pick on a project that has
has two years of football experience? Heck, even JPP had more experience. If we r seeking a plug in RT, we need a more polished Prospect.
for what it's worth, my Mock has C/G/T Barrett Jones in the 3rd Rd. #81 overall (plug in caliber).
In the 5th Rd. #152 overall OT Ried Fragel (converted TE with one year @ T).
Been raining out here in Kauai today Jaime. My dog is bugging me to take her to the ocean to swim.
It'd be one thing to be a starter on a crappy team in a conference after only two years of playing but to start at Florida State and produce what he did with only two years experience speaks volumes to me. If we could get him in round 2, great, but I don't think he leaves the first round.
I used to love Barrett Jones as a pick and thought he was a very complete player based on the games I saw, but I keep reading how there is this concern of him getting blown apart by NFL level caliber.
Raining in Kauai imagine that? Don't you get like over 300 inches of rain a year?
I recall hiking the Nepali coastline trail in light rain. one of the greatest experiences in my entire life. I felt like I was back with the dinosaurs.
I agree, soccer, hoops, and boxing make for quite the resume of a nimblefooted OT. Just think that whomever we select at number 19, should be a plug-in starter at some point in 2013 season. As u say, Maybe Watsons level of college comp allows him to make that kind of progress?
So I take you are officially off the Barrett Jones welcome wagon?
That's the first negative buzz I've heard on Jones regarding his play at the next level. I'll keep my eyes and ears open over the next 48 hours for any similar Intel.
Your dog must be a good swimmer, because I recalll some pretty nasty Waves out your way.
Due to our needs at those positions I'm not bothering with a full preview, just some thoughts on things as I see 'em on who migt go in the first three rounds and some loose rankings by position.
QB
Jaime - The 22 mile Napali hike (to/from) is generally considered one of the top 10 hikes in the world. Kudos to you. It's an incredible experience. I can definitely see why'd you think you were with dinosaurs. I live about 3 miles off the main road on the North Shore. 1 mile in from the highway, it rains 30 inches per year. By the time you get to my house it rains about 100 inches per year. Lots of microclimates along the way. Actually very cool. We own a 110 pound Newfoundland who loves to swim. They're bred to rescue people who are drowning. I'm teaching her to rescue. She loves to swim. When I take her to the beach to swim, it is "game on" as soon as my head goes underwater. She comes charging out to swim to me regardless of whether or not I need to be saved. If I go for a swim, she just follows me whereever I swim and sometimes, I go pretty far offshore. She's like my "other" wife according to most people who see her following me out there. I can't surf with her because she cries and follows me out into the water. Got to leave her home. Great life here.
If I trust my eyes (and I usually do), I'd love to have Barrett Jones in the 3rd round for us. I think he is a very cerebral player which I believe is very important at the center position. The concern I've read is that he got protected a lot by Warmack lined up next to me, however he won awards playing OT as well so it speaks more about his overall talent. I think his versatility would make him a hot prospect for the Giants.
DeAndre Hopkins might be an interesting 2nd round pick if available. We've all heard the report that he allegedly trashed his room at the Combine, including feces on the wall.
I am curious, if this information is correct, how or will it affect his draft status.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jeff-gordon/tipsheet-wr-prospects-trash-their-reputation/article_d5044c64-fbd7-568d-8296-7da21d99d56c.html (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jeff-gordon/tipsheet-wr-prospects-trash-their-reputation/article_d5044c64-fbd7-568d-8296-7da21d99d56c.html)
If we draft anyone among these three groups on day 1, I will likely drop dead given our needs elsewhere and the fact aside from maybe 1 player, none of these guys interest me as a Giant.
Tyler Eifert would cause huge matchup problems, just like Gronkowski/Hernandez in NE. I might not like such a pick, but could understand the reasoning.
Quote from: dasher on April 24, 2013, 01:57:37 PM
Tyler Eifert would cause huge matchup problems, just like Gronkowski/Hernandez in NE. I might not like such a pick, but could understand the reasoning.
I'd have understood it, perhaps even welcomed it had we not gone out and signed Brandon Myers. Going with Eifert now would simply mean wasted free agent $'s at a time we're tight against the cap as it is
Having read Ceri's write up on Fluker I am less excited about him. 4 sacks is a lot for a guy who should have been tough to get around.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 24, 2013, 02:35:04 PM
Having read Ceri's write up on Fluker I am less excited about him. 4 sacks is a lot for a guy who should have been tough to get around.
Your concern is legit MG. But on the other hand, if Phil Loadholt can play ORT (he was just resigned for big money), then Fluker certainly can. The latter is much more mobile than Loadholt.
Regardless, his pass protection issues may be why you hear the name Menelik Watson called at #19.
Phil, great stuff there! I do recall those microclimates u speak of. I took a helicopter ride into some incredible valley with a 1/2 doz streams popping out of the hillsides. Rain, sun, rain, sun etc. What a ride! <:-P
Was wondering if that Life Preserver Monument @ the 1st beach on the Napali is still there. It was a tribute to a strong swimmer that drowned on that beach. Really opened my eyes, as I was a strong swimmer whom took chances in my day.
I mentioned elsewhere, I think this Draft is setup great for us. Deep @ Corner, DL, & OL. I'm licking my chops for morrow nite. Thinking JR comes away with a terrific Prospect (whatever position) @ #19.
Rich, not only Ceri's report, but others have echoed the same concerns re; Prospect Fluker. No denying he's a road grader supreme. But reportedly he relies on his incredible reach & strength to handle speed off the edge. That won't fly @ the next level. There has also been alot of fluctuation with his weight. If his feet can't improve, then he becomes a slow G that can't play C. Thinking we can do better with the #19 th Selection.
I know I'm in the serious minority...but even with the Myers signing, I would still welcome an Eifert pick. This guy is a catch machine....
Scoring is not our problem. Stopping the other team is.
The Giants scored 17 points or less in five of their seven losses. In today's NFL, you are not going to win many games scoring 17 points.
Quote from: todge on April 25, 2013, 12:23:08 PM
The Giants scored 17 points or less in five of their seven losses. In today's NFL, you are not going to win many games scoring 17 points.
True, but what was the time of possession differential in those losses? Hard to score when you don't have the ball and the other teams defense is fresh all day whilst your own is worn out.
Having a potent offense and getting the lead early is a pretty significant variable when it comes to time of possession. IMO, we too often have to come from behind for wins. I'd like to see what we're capable of if we try to get out early, and keep pouring it on....then let's establish the run....
Today's NFL...IMO
Quote from: UKGiantsFan on April 25, 2013, 01:01:37 PM
Quote from: todge on April 25, 2013, 12:23:08 PM
The Giants scored 17 points or less in five of their seven losses. In today's NFL, you are not going to win many games scoring 17 points.
True, but what was the time of possession differential in those losses? Hard to score when you don't have the ball and the other teams defense is fresh all day whilst your own is worn out.
On the other hand ... if your offense can't move the ball down the field and there are too many "three and outs", that would hurt your defense as well.
The Pats and the Packers are perennial Playoff and Super Bowl contenders, yet they (like the Giants) are at the bottom of the league defensively. On the other hand, perennial defense oriented teams like the Bears and the Jets go nowhere. The NFL is now an "outscore your opponent league" rather than "stop your opponent" one.
In agreement with Todge....
if Reese drafts a TE with the talent that Eifert has then it might help me to get over not drafting Ogeltree...
LOL, just realised I didn't do a preview at Center.
FWIW I see only one guy worth drafting in the first 3 rounds who I didn't already cover in the G preview. That one player is Mike Mayock favorourite, Brian Schwenke of California who I really don't like that much!